Originally posted by Aeonblades Game is P2W even if it is a decent game. Don't sugar coat it. If you can buy the major currency in a cash shop, that is clearly P2W. Rabid Fanboys inbound I'm sure.
By that logic, every game that has a RMT system (EVE,GW2,EQ now with Kronos, just to mention a few) is P2W.
If you need to vent at least try to elaborate a bit more than "I Say SO!"
No it's not. EQ Krono can be purchased with platinum in game or in the cash shop, however, anyone can earn it and it does not make your character stronger in any way. AoW is assuredly P2W, as the major form of currency is available in the in game shop and it makes your character more powerful.
EQ uses seperate currencies for gear, platinum is worth next to nothing unless you are on the roleplaying server.
GW2 isn't even worth a mention really, and I didn't play EvE enough to care.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by Burntvet Originally posted by botrytis Originally posted by Biskop It's new, it's Asian, and it's more innovative than all recent Western games.
Of course people will hate it.
But most of the people bashing it just spread ill-informed bs and blatant misinformation ("it's ptw", "it's a Korean grinder", "combat sucks" etc), which is easily proven wrong by a simple fact check.
People trying to bash the actual features have a much harder time since that requires them to actually play and understand the game. And most people that make it past the tutorial seem to appreciate Wushu's uniqueness, even if they don't find it fun.
If people are spending cash like that on a game and people don't like it then it is not hate.
I and a couple friends put some decent time into this one before we quit the beta and while it may be a new game, and "Asian", it is not a new type of Asian game. It is the same old, if slightly slicker, Asian grinder with the standard cash shop (including P2W items) and slightly better crafting than usual. A few new twists, with the PKing side of things, but the novelty wears off. That said, the same old grind is there. As is the "absolute necessity" of using the cash shop or suffering greatly, as is common in most Asian grinders.
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Biskop It's new, it's Asian, and it's more innovative than all recent Western games.
Of course people will hate it.
But most of the people bashing it just spread ill-informed bs and blatant misinformation ("it's ptw", "it's a Korean grinder", "combat sucks" etc), which is easily proven wrong by a simple fact check.
People trying to bash the actual features have a much harder time since that requires them to actually play and understand the game. And most people that make it past the tutorial seem to appreciate Wushu's uniqueness, even if they don't find it fun.
If people are spending cash like that on a game and people don't like it then it is not hate.
I and a couple friends put some decent time into this one before we quit the beta and while it may be a new game, and "Asian", it is not a new type of Asian game. It is the same old, if slightly slicker, Asian grinder with the standard cash shop (including P2W items) and slightly better crafting than usual. A few new twists, with the PKing side of things, but the novelty wears off. That said, the same old grind is there. As is the "absolute necessity" of using the cash shop or suffering greatly, as is common in most Asian grinders.
Yet another post that shows NO DETAILS. Please, enlighten me - what's the grind and what's the absolutely necessary item in the item shop? I'll just list everything I think you can pull out of your ass:
- Spying - I'll give you this one, I do 4 a day for the tokens - every day. Grind? Yeah, but at least it's not boring. There are other ways of obtaining experience.
- Forbidden Instances - Capped at 7 per week. I try to cap it out. It is good for raising world reputation and items. Grind? Yeah, but equipment/rep grinding is nothing new and I don't foresee it going away in the near future.
- Team Practice - I do it every day to max out my cultivation. It's a mini game, hence I don't consider it a grind.
- Shifu Challenge - You can choose to do it every day or wait until the end of the week and do a 12 rounder. It's designed to max out your lifeskill experience. You can choose this or crafting. Not a grind.
- Daily Events - A choice for additional power, never the same experience. Not a grind.
- Material Collection - An unholy grind for upgrades, but if you want the power - you must spend the time. Is it ideal? Nah, but it sure seems like a universal reality in any/all MMORPGs.
So, please - elaborate.
For myself, I mostly concentrated on the crafting aspects, my other friends did more of the combat side than I. Try doing ANYTHING crafting without the "pills". It even sucks with them. Without them, much worse. Harvesting, farming... meh, ok. But the actual grind out items for the XP gain... terrible. And like I said, with out the cash shop pills and a few other items, it was even more very unfun. And I like crafting in MMOs. I heard it was good in this game, but no... slightly better than average at the start, but when factoring in the "no pills" penalty and the typical Asian grind requirements, crafting gets a sub-par rating overall.
Originally posted by Burntvet For myself, I mostly concentrated on the crafting aspects, my other friends did more of the combat side than I. Try doing ANYTHING crafting without the "pills". It even sucks with them. Without them, much worse. Harvesting, farming... meh, ok. But the actual grind out items for the XP gain... terrible. And like I said, with out the cash shop pills and a few other items, it was even more very unfun. And I like crafting in MMOs. I heard it was good in this game, but no... slightly better than average at the start, but when factoring in the "no pills" penalty and the typical Asian grind requirements, crafting gets a sub-par rating overall.
What?!
You don't have to grind a single item to earn xp for crafting. You can literally go from 0 to illustrious without making a damn thing by just playing bejeweled.
Honestly, I'm not sure we are playing the same game. I've been maxing my daily crafting every day without even denting my vigor. I took the begging lifeskill, got that to Legendary status and I now have about 600-700 max vigor every day. That isn't easy to burn through. I have another 150 pills just sitting in my bank. I've heard that some advanced recipes really burn it hard, but that shouldn't be surprising. I'm also an herbalist, and I rarely craft (only for myself) - so I spend most of my vigor collecting and that is a very slow burn.
I don't know what you mean by "grind out items for the XP gain". That's not how you effectively level a manufacture life skill. You only craft when you want an item. Otherwise challenge your shifu to a minigame and get "free" crafting experience (noted that this does not help your case for lifeskill rankings, but it does move you forward).
Cash shop pills? Like what? The collection book is pretty powerful, but I don't have a huge problem with it.
I think your major problem is that you don't really understand the game yet, or at least the efficient ways of playing it. That's a feature of this game, it isn't simple. There are multiple ways of skinning the cat, so to say, but some are definitely better than others.
Honestly, I'm not sure we are playing the same game. I've been maxing my daily crafting every day without even denting my vigor. I took the begging lifeskill, got that to Legendary status and I now have about 600-700 max vigor every day. That isn't easy to burn through. I have another 150 pills just sitting in my bank. I've heard that some advanced recipes really burn it hard, but that shouldn't be surprising. I'm also an herbalist, and I rarely craft (only for myself) - so I spend most of my vigor collecting and that is a very slow burn.I don't know what you mean by "grind out items for the XP gain". That's not how you effectively level a manufacture life skill. You only craft when you want an item. Otherwise challenge your shifu to a minigame and get "free" crafting experience (noted that this does not help your case for lifeskill rankings, but it does move you forward).Cash shop pills? Like what? The collection book is pretty powerful, but I don't have a huge problem with it.I think your major problem is that you don't really understand the game yet, or at least the efficient ways of playing it. That's a feature of this game, it isn't simple. There are multiple ways of skinning the cat, so to say, but some are definitely better than others.
It is possible I did not have everything I "needed" to thing in the most efficient way, but I did not feel like chasing every single grind to get every single optional item, either, because I was already grinding enough for materials and other things. Grind for this and grind for that, no thanks, I have a full time job. That said, the higher level weapon items DO take a lot more to do,and the upgrades, especially when you have the 4 bars to manage. (herbalist, not so much) Anyway, I had enough. It was too much a grind, not enough fun, and I didn't care to spend any more time with it.
Really funny to see how so many people don't have a clue on what P2W really is. I bet the people who thinks that this game is P2W never played a REAL P2W game.
I'll say it again : If you can get what someone bought from the cash shop ingame, its not pay to win at all. P2W is when you can buy stuff (that CANT be acquire ingame) from the cash shop that will make you more powerful than the ones who can't. That is P2W. Everything else is just plain false. And please, don't say this is my opinion and everyone don't see it the same way. It's just pure logic. If you and someone else duel with the same gear/player skill, one grind for it and the other bought it from the cash shop, the person who bought it from the cash shop won't automatically win. Now, if you both duel with the same gear/player skill and one guy bought some "power" from the cash shop that can't be acquire ingame and the other guy couldn't since he's broke, who will win? Yeah the guy who spent some cash in the cash shop. That is P2W.
Maybe, in all honesty though, siege equipment in GW2 felt far more P2W.
Yeah like being able to buy a siege weapon that won't anything if you don't have the supply to build it is P2W.... Please go read my post on what P2W really is. Anyone saying otherwise clearly never played a P2W game EVER.
Yeah i stopped playing the day after open beta started bcause i seen how pay to win it was in the item mall, if you have the silver you can max out one of your internal skills in the matter of hours.
Game is a joke.
This is assuming you have the shitton of exp or cultivation points to do this, and thats where the time comes in. Most f2p games fall into play for free pay to enjoy/advance/compete. Sadly pay2win stuff is really all that sells in these games, so thats why they are setup for it. If the cash shop items are tradable in game though its a bit more balanced since you can buy em off people with ingame funds. The fact you can buy currency wit rl cash in the game itself is going to break it in the long run I think. I also hate the damn bound/trade money system the game uses.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Maybe, in all honesty though, siege equipment in GW2 felt far more P2W.
O.o
I personally had stocks of rams and catapults by just using medals of honor. Many players I knew could buy craploads of siege weaponry without ever spending a dime in real money, same for me.
So no.
I like Age of Wushy, but I find this unbound silver stuff unfortunate. There are still quite a few mechanics that prevent you from buying yourself to the top, but it's for sure that guilds that do what the OP described will get there much sooner. As will players who lay down a hefty fee.
Originally posted by SirFubar
Really funny to see how so many people don't have a clue on what P2W really is. I bet the people who thinks that this game is P2W never played a REAL P2W game.
I'll say it again : If you can get what someone bought from the cash shop ingame, its not pay to win at all. P2W is when you can buy stuff (that CANT be acquire ingame) from the cash shop that will make you more powerful than the ones who can't. That is P2W. Everything else is just plain false. And please, don't say this is my opinion and everyone don't see it the same way. It's just pure logic. If you and someone else duel with the same gear/player skill, one grind for it and the other bought it from the cash shop, the person who bought it from the cash shop won't automatically win. Now, if you both duel with the same gear/player skill and one guy bought some "power" from the cash shop that can't be acquire ingame and the other guy couldn't since he's broke, who will win? Yeah the guy who spent some cash in the cash shop. That is P2W.
So you have this guy who lays down a ton of cash to buy the best crafting recipes from other players and is therefore able to boost his XP conversion through the roof and is also able to convert that XP into cultivation through spending money, and is able to get the best armor / weapons in the game.
He wins against other players who didn't pay because he has an advantage in cultivation and in gear, and possibly in crafting buffs.
Aka, he wins by paying.
Therefore it logically falls within pay 2 win, regardless if others could aquire the same things in due time.
Now the extend and severity of the situation could be argued upon. It isn't that bad atm, in my opinion.
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People will discuss the definition of P2W for all enternity, yet they are forgetting to observe what matters: the cash shop's effect on the game. In my opinion, allowing characters to influence the in-game economy with real cash is sufficient reason to dislike this system. Yet, one would be completely oblivious as to not see how this affects other aspects. One of Age of Wushu's principle facets would have to be clan warfare, and if real cash allows players to equip themselves, that affects the entire meta-game, which is one of the most prominent and disputed elements of gameplay.
That is why, ladies and gentlemen, I believe the P2P model will always be superior. It doesn't have to sell gameplay-altering items through the cash shop in order to generate revenue.
Maybe, in all honesty though, siege equipment in GW2 felt far more P2W.
O.o
I personally had stocks of rams and catapults by just using medals of honor. Many players I knew could buy craploads of siege weaponry without ever spending a dime in real money, same for me.
So no.
Idk buying siege equipment kept me broke. I was buying equipment hoping to make enough back to buy more. On top of that it had a much greater effect on the game than anything in AoW. I don't believe either system is "p2w", but I felt the gem shop tugging at my poket far more overthere.
I like Age of Wushy, but I find this unbound silver stuff unfortunate. There are still quite a few mechanics that prevent you from buying yourself to the top, but it's for sure that guilds that do what the OP described will get there much sooner. As will players who lay down a hefty fee.
Originally posted by SirFubar
Really funny to see how so many people don't have a clue on what P2W really is. I bet the people who thinks that this game is P2W never played a REAL P2W game.
I'll say it again : If you can get what someone bought from the cash shop ingame, its not pay to win at all. P2W is when you can buy stuff (that CANT be acquire ingame) from the cash shop that will make you more powerful than the ones who can't. That is P2W. Everything else is just plain false. And please, don't say this is my opinion and everyone don't see it the same way. It's just pure logic. If you and someone else duel with the same gear/player skill, one grind for it and the other bought it from the cash shop, the person who bought it from the cash shop won't automatically win. Now, if you both duel with the same gear/player skill and one guy bought some "power" from the cash shop that can't be acquire ingame and the other guy couldn't since he's broke, who will win? Yeah the guy who spent some cash in the cash shop. That is P2W.
So you have this guy who lays down a ton of cash to buy the best crafting recipes from other players and is therefore able to boost his XP conversion through the roof and is also able to convert that XP into cultivation through spending money, and is able to get the best armor / weapons in the game.
This is really misleading. Yeah I guess some of what your saying can be done, again the gain is not worth it. It's like spending 100k on a yugo. I guess if someone what's to do it they can, but....
He wins against other players who didn't pay because he has an advantage in cultivation and in gear, and possibly in crafting buffs.
Aka, he wins by paying.
The game is just not built to have this outcome. Sanil just announced a 1v1 tournament where they fly people to China. Character quilifications are that you are "Matial intuiation or higher." Meaning someone, 10 internal levels below cap can still be competitive. Even at that there is a cap of 36 which is 2-3 weeks of regular play. So I guess someone could do what you say, but.....
Therefore it logically falls within pay 2 win, regardless if others could aquire the same things in due time.
Now the extend and severity of the situation could be argued upon. It isn't that bad atm, in my opinion.
I agree. You listed what was possible even though unlikely do to it just not making sense to do so, but non the less it's possible. Like I said though seige equipment in GW2 had far more impact on the game than anything you coukd spend cash on in AoW.
I think we are bascically on the same page just looking at the picture from different perspectives.
is it pay to win when they spend money and still lose?
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Originally posted by Roxtarr is it pay to win when they spend money and still lose?
Pay 2 Lose, a term I've come across in this game from people thinking, YES I can spend money to buy all this sweet as gear with all these cool stats. But in the end gear means nothing, if you don't spend the time cultivating your skill sets and your internal skills. Man, I'm running around with level 32 internal, level 15 second school internal and a couple of level 5 skills and sporting gear that I purchased from an NPC vendor with no stats on it. No issues with beating chumps with similar skill levels and purchased gear.
I'm stating my opinion based on my experience, I did play and I was getting the cash shop asking me to charge money with real money every few minutes by opening a new window outside the game. Their intentions are clear when you see stuff like that and the game is still in closed beta.
You just had to know a few tricks round the trading post or a few good farming places and you'd be set on money in GW2 tbh.
I just wanted to illustrate that if you can win by paying, there is a "P2W" aspect to the game. No matter how hard to do, there really isn't a way around calling it something else.
I find it limited today in AoW, though I do see several good oppurtunities for people to gain advantages by paying up. Mostly by buying the rarest manuals with IRL money and starting a bit of a monopoly. They could also level up things like divination or apothecary really fast to boost their XP conversion through the roof.
Yes, there is the argument that you can still beat rank 30+ people with a rank 10. But really now, how many times is that going to happen? The Russian version seems to have a lot of "Spiritually balanced" and "Expert of Self" characters, these dudes kill you in 2 hits through your block, ain't much you're gonna do against that. Only way I see is if he facetanks an entire leasure kick rage or taiji rage, and even then he might survive.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Originally posted by Kenshin_Himura I'm stating my opinion based on my experience, I did play and I was getting the cash shop asking me to charge money with real money every few minutes by opening a new window outside the game. Their intentions are clear when you see stuff like that and the game is still in closed beta.
so...where is your story you promised us where you pay to win?
Really funny to see how so many people don't have a clue on what P2W really is. I bet the people who thinks that this game is P2W never played a REAL P2W game.
I'll say it again : If you can get what someone bought from the cash shop ingame, its not pay to win at all. P2W is when you can buy stuff (that CANT be acquire ingame) from the cash shop that will make you more powerful than the ones who can't. That is P2W. Everything else is just plain false. And please, don't say this is my opinion and everyone don't see it the same way. It's just pure logic. If you and someone else duel with the same gear/player skill, one grind for it and the other bought it from the cash shop, the person who bought it from the cash shop won't automatically win. Now, if you both duel with the same gear/player skill and one guy bought some "power" from the cash shop that can't be acquire ingame and the other guy couldn't since he's broke, who will win? Yeah the guy who spent some cash in the cash shop. That is P2W.
So you have this guy who lays down a ton of cash to buy the best crafting recipes from other players and is therefore able to boost his XP conversion through the roof and is also able to convert that XP into cultivation through spending money, and is able to get the best armor / weapons in the game.
He wins against other players who didn't pay because he has an advantage in cultivation and in gear, and possibly in crafting buffs.
Aka, he wins by paying.
Therefore it logically falls within pay 2 win, regardless if others could aquire the same things in due time.
Now the extend and severity of the situation could be argued upon. It isn't that bad atm, in my opinion.
So from your logic, anyone being able to spend more time in game than you is P2W? Yeah nice try. It's kinda obvious that anyone who has better gear than you will win in a duel...it doesn't mean its P2W. Buying the best gear (that can be obtain ingame) for real money doesn't mean you will win against someone who has the same gear/player skill. While buying "power" (that can only be bought from the cash shop) will. If you don't understand this, you don't understand P2W at all.
P2W and Pay to skip grind are 2 completely different things that most people doesn't seem to get at all. If pay to skip gring is P2W, then every single F2P MMO is P2W, but its not.
Guys it is a game, no matter how much more retarded you think the other side (hint: both sides have titanic numbskulls running around) is at the end of the day it is just a game and a half decent one at that. If you wanna bash something go bash SWTOR or TESO, those two certainly have merit in bashing.
Also to anyone thinking that P2W = being able to acquire in-game money with real world money, friend I am afraid you need to go to the doctor to have them check you, EVE-Online, the premier sandbox that is still active and still kicks ass, has the 30 day Plex system in which you can buy a plex with real world money and then sell it on the in-game market ergo getting in-game money for real world money, this in the past has been used by entire alliances to, at least, partially fund their war efforts, did this imbalance the game? Overall no, because those plexing their alliances were checked by people smart enough to outattrition them and AoW can work very much the same.
Originally posted by Alamareth He probably lied? You could also gear yourself for free with guildmates helping everyone out. Gear isn't exactly the end-all, be-all, metric for player power in this game.
Monkeys might also fly out of my butt but its highly unlikely. Hes talking about the whole guilld getting geared over night, not 50 people all helping one guy to get better gear. Anytime you have a game where you can convert something you buy in a cash shop to a currency you can use to buy better gear or weapons or stats its P2W. Or any items that can be bought then traded , broken down and exchanged or sold in game for currency to the above mentioned end, it P2W
Guys it is a game, no matter how much more retarded you think the other side (hint: both sides have titanic numbskulls running around) is at the end of the day it is just a game and a half decent one at that. If you wanna bash something go bash SWTOR or TESO, those two certainly have merit in bashing.
Also to anyone thinking that P2W = being able to acquire in-game money with real world money, friend I am afraid you need to go to the doctor to have them check you, EVE-Online, the premier sandbox that is still active and still kicks ass, has the 30 day Plex system in which you can buy a plex with real world money and then sell it on the in-game market ergo getting in-game money for real world money, this in the past has been used by entire alliances to, at least, partially fund their war efforts, did this imbalance the game? Overall no, because those plexing their alliances were checked by people smart enough to outattrition them and AoW can work very much the same.
No one is talking about balance, simply if you can spend real money in a game run cash cash to make your character more powerfull then someone else its P2W. No one cares how long some other games been doing it. We kind of already know that its been happening for some time now.
Comments
No it's not. EQ Krono can be purchased with platinum in game or in the cash shop, however, anyone can earn it and it does not make your character stronger in any way. AoW is assuredly P2W, as the major form of currency is available in the in game shop and it makes your character more powerful.
EQ uses seperate currencies for gear, platinum is worth next to nothing unless you are on the roleplaying server.
GW2 isn't even worth a mention really, and I didn't play EvE enough to care.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
If people are spending cash like that on a game and people don't like it then it is not hate.
I and a couple friends put some decent time into this one before we quit the beta and while it may be a new game, and "Asian", it is not a new type of Asian game. It is the same old, if slightly slicker, Asian grinder with the standard cash shop (including P2W items) and slightly better crafting than usual. A few new twists, with the PKing side of things, but the novelty wears off. That said, the same old grind is there. As is the "absolute necessity" of using the cash shop or suffering greatly, as is common in most Asian grinders.Yet another post that shows NO DETAILS. Please, enlighten me - what's the grind and what's the absolutely necessary item in the item shop? I'll just list everything I think you can pull out of your ass:
- Spying - I'll give you this one, I do 4 a day for the tokens - every day. Grind? Yeah, but at least it's not boring. There are other ways of obtaining experience.
- Forbidden Instances - Capped at 7 per week. I try to cap it out. It is good for raising world reputation and items. Grind? Yeah, but equipment/rep grinding is nothing new and I don't foresee it going away in the near future.
- Team Practice - I do it every day to max out my cultivation. It's a mini game, hence I don't consider it a grind.
- Shifu Challenge - You can choose to do it every day or wait until the end of the week and do a 12 rounder. It's designed to max out your lifeskill experience. You can choose this or crafting. Not a grind.
- Daily Events - A choice for additional power, never the same experience. Not a grind.
- Material Collection - An unholy grind for upgrades, but if you want the power - you must spend the time. Is it ideal? Nah, but it sure seems like a universal reality in any/all MMORPGs.
So, please - elaborate.
For myself, I mostly concentrated on the crafting aspects, my other friends did more of the combat side than I. Try doing ANYTHING crafting without the "pills". It even sucks with them. Without them, much worse. Harvesting, farming... meh, ok. But the actual grind out items for the XP gain... terrible. And like I said, with out the cash shop pills and a few other items, it was even more very unfun. And I like crafting in MMOs. I heard it was good in this game, but no... slightly better than average at the start, but when factoring in the "no pills" penalty and the typical Asian grind requirements, crafting gets a sub-par rating overall.What?!
You don't have to grind a single item to earn xp for crafting. You can literally go from 0 to illustrious without making a damn thing by just playing bejeweled.
Honestly, I'm not sure we are playing the same game. I've been maxing my daily crafting every day without even denting my vigor. I took the begging lifeskill, got that to Legendary status and I now have about 600-700 max vigor every day. That isn't easy to burn through. I have another 150 pills just sitting in my bank. I've heard that some advanced recipes really burn it hard, but that shouldn't be surprising. I'm also an herbalist, and I rarely craft (only for myself) - so I spend most of my vigor collecting and that is a very slow burn.
I don't know what you mean by "grind out items for the XP gain". That's not how you effectively level a manufacture life skill. You only craft when you want an item. Otherwise challenge your shifu to a minigame and get "free" crafting experience (noted that this does not help your case for lifeskill rankings, but it does move you forward).
Cash shop pills? Like what? The collection book is pretty powerful, but I don't have a huge problem with it.
I think your major problem is that you don't really understand the game yet, or at least the efficient ways of playing it. That's a feature of this game, it isn't simple. There are multiple ways of skinning the cat, so to say, but some are definitely better than others.
It is possible I did not have everything I "needed" to thing in the most efficient way, but I did not feel like chasing every single grind to get every single optional item, either, because I was already grinding enough for materials and other things. Grind for this and grind for that, no thanks, I have a full time job. That said, the higher level weapon items DO take a lot more to do,and the upgrades, especially when you have the 4 bars to manage. (herbalist, not so much) Anyway, I had enough. It was too much a grind, not enough fun, and I didn't care to spend any more time with it.Really funny to see how so many people don't have a clue on what P2W really is. I bet the people who thinks that this game is P2W never played a REAL P2W game.
I'll say it again : If you can get what someone bought from the cash shop ingame, its not pay to win at all. P2W is when you can buy stuff (that CANT be acquire ingame) from the cash shop that will make you more powerful than the ones who can't. That is P2W. Everything else is just plain false. And please, don't say this is my opinion and everyone don't see it the same way. It's just pure logic. If you and someone else duel with the same gear/player skill, one grind for it and the other bought it from the cash shop, the person who bought it from the cash shop won't automatically win. Now, if you both duel with the same gear/player skill and one guy bought some "power" from the cash shop that can't be acquire ingame and the other guy couldn't since he's broke, who will win? Yeah the guy who spent some cash in the cash shop. That is P2W.
There is definitely a P2W aspect to it.
Thankfully gear doesn't seem to be the end all.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Maybe, in all honesty though, siege equipment in GW2 felt far more P2W.
Yeah like being able to buy a siege weapon that won't anything if you don't have the supply to build it is P2W.... Please go read my post on what P2W really is. Anyone saying otherwise clearly never played a P2W game EVER.
This is assuming you have the shitton of exp or cultivation points to do this, and thats where the time comes in. Most f2p games fall into play for free pay to enjoy/advance/compete. Sadly pay2win stuff is really all that sells in these games, so thats why they are setup for it. If the cash shop items are tradable in game though its a bit more balanced since you can buy em off people with ingame funds. The fact you can buy currency wit rl cash in the game itself is going to break it in the long run I think. I also hate the damn bound/trade money system the game uses.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
O.o
I personally had stocks of rams and catapults by just using medals of honor. Many players I knew could buy craploads of siege weaponry without ever spending a dime in real money, same for me.
So no.
I like Age of Wushy, but I find this unbound silver stuff unfortunate. There are still quite a few mechanics that prevent you from buying yourself to the top, but it's for sure that guilds that do what the OP described will get there much sooner. As will players who lay down a hefty fee.
So you have this guy who lays down a ton of cash to buy the best crafting recipes from other players and is therefore able to boost his XP conversion through the roof and is also able to convert that XP into cultivation through spending money, and is able to get the best armor / weapons in the game.
He wins against other players who didn't pay because he has an advantage in cultivation and in gear, and possibly in crafting buffs.
Aka, he wins by paying.
Therefore it logically falls within pay 2 win, regardless if others could aquire the same things in due time.
Now the extend and severity of the situation could be argued upon. It isn't that bad atm, in my opinion.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
People will discuss the definition of P2W for all enternity, yet they are forgetting to observe what matters: the cash shop's effect on the game. In my opinion, allowing characters to influence the in-game economy with real cash is sufficient reason to dislike this system. Yet, one would be completely oblivious as to not see how this affects other aspects. One of Age of Wushu's principle facets would have to be clan warfare, and if real cash allows players to equip themselves, that affects the entire meta-game, which is one of the most prominent and disputed elements of gameplay.
That is why, ladies and gentlemen, I believe the P2P model will always be superior. It doesn't have to sell gameplay-altering items through the cash shop in order to generate revenue.
I think we are bascically on the same page just looking at the picture from different perspectives.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Pay 2 Lose, a term I've come across in this game from people thinking, YES I can spend money to buy all this sweet as gear with all these cool stats. But in the end gear means nothing, if you don't spend the time cultivating your skill sets and your internal skills. Man, I'm running around with level 32 internal, level 15 second school internal and a couple of level 5 skills and sporting gear that I purchased from an NPC vendor with no stats on it. No issues with beating chumps with similar skill levels and purchased gear.
where is your little story you were putting together where you payed to win?
You just had to know a few tricks round the trading post or a few good farming places and you'd be set on money in GW2 tbh.
I just wanted to illustrate that if you can win by paying, there is a "P2W" aspect to the game. No matter how hard to do, there really isn't a way around calling it something else.
I find it limited today in AoW, though I do see several good oppurtunities for people to gain advantages by paying up. Mostly by buying the rarest manuals with IRL money and starting a bit of a monopoly. They could also level up things like divination or apothecary really fast to boost their XP conversion through the roof.
Yes, there is the argument that you can still beat rank 30+ people with a rank 10. But really now, how many times is that going to happen? The Russian version seems to have a lot of "Spiritually balanced" and "Expert of Self" characters, these dudes kill you in 2 hits through your block, ain't much you're gonna do against that. Only way I see is if he facetanks an entire leasure kick rage or taiji rage, and even then he might survive.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
so...where is your story you promised us where you pay to win?
So from your logic, anyone being able to spend more time in game than you is P2W? Yeah nice try. It's kinda obvious that anyone who has better gear than you will win in a duel...it doesn't mean its P2W. Buying the best gear (that can be obtain ingame) for real money doesn't mean you will win against someone who has the same gear/player skill. While buying "power" (that can only be bought from the cash shop) will. If you don't understand this, you don't understand P2W at all.
P2W and Pay to skip grind are 2 completely different things that most people doesn't seem to get at all. If pay to skip gring is P2W, then every single F2P MMO is P2W, but its not.
See allot of frustrated virgins I do... mmm yes.
Guys it is a game, no matter how much more retarded you think the other side (hint: both sides have titanic numbskulls running around) is at the end of the day it is just a game and a half decent one at that. If you wanna bash something go bash SWTOR or TESO, those two certainly have merit in bashing.
Also to anyone thinking that P2W = being able to acquire in-game money with real world money, friend I am afraid you need to go to the doctor to have them check you, EVE-Online, the premier sandbox that is still active and still kicks ass, has the 30 day Plex system in which you can buy a plex with real world money and then sell it on the in-game market ergo getting in-game money for real world money, this in the past has been used by entire alliances to, at least, partially fund their war efforts, did this imbalance the game? Overall no, because those plexing their alliances were checked by people smart enough to outattrition them and AoW can work very much the same.
Monkeys might also fly out of my butt but its highly unlikely. Hes talking about the whole guilld getting geared over night, not 50 people all helping one guy to get better gear. Anytime you have a game where you can convert something you buy in a cash shop to a currency you can use to buy better gear or weapons or stats its P2W. Or any items that can be bought then traded , broken down and exchanged or sold in game for currency to the above mentioned end, it P2W
No one is talking about balance, simply if you can spend real money in a game run cash cash to make your character more powerfull then someone else its P2W. No one cares how long some other games been doing it. We kind of already know that its been happening for some time now.