My personal policy is that I will pay for the box or a monthly fee of $10 or less, but not both. I'm also not a big fan of paying $180 a year to play ONE game. Between $50 and $70 is more than resonable for one game in one year. Again, this is something I do as a consumer, your mileage may vary.
BTW Elnator, I wasn't claiming that taxes had anything at all to do with MMO games (even if they do to some extent). You were implying that someone that doesn't back the monthly fee, or support the deadly sin of greed as a virtue, is somehow less than moral. I just pointed out that a rather depressing observation about the current evolution of our class structure.
Also, The poor don't get taxed? You must be a neocon of some stripe. Most poor people work. Many poor people work more than one job. The actual percentage of people that are unemployed is right around 6 percent. In the U.S., that's 18 million out of 300 million. The rest of the poor are underemployed and working multiple minimum wage jobs. Hence, they pay the same 25 to 30% of their income to taxes that the middle class do. The upper 1% of the income bracket pay less than 3% income tax now that we've done away with the capital gains tax. Since games are sold by volume, especially MMO games, wouldn't it make sense to create games that were affordable by the largest number of people? And don't poor and middle class people make up the largest cross section of the population? Hmmmm..... I wonder.......
Originally posted by Elnator *sighs* If you don't understand the costs involved in running a 100+ server network (and any MMORPG worth a crap has multiple cluster servers to support just ONE "server" for the game, usually) then PLEASE don't ask these questions. Recurring COSTS is why there are subscription fees: 1) Bandwidth 2) Server maintenance 3) Software updates 4) Ongoing Development / Content additions (there is No Such Thing as a Finished MMORPG 5) QA - because, see above, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Finished" MMORPG 6) Customer Support Bandwidth is actually the LOWEST of the costs to be considered when all is said and done. And Customer Support is often the most expensive. Have a nice day. Hope you fools who constantly whine about subscription fees finally get a clue one day.
That wasn't very nice Elnator. Why would you say something like that to someone?
You think that if someone doesn't understand something they're not supposed to ask? Very logical. I guess he wasn't born with that innate knowledge you've been blessed with.
I ask that anyone who doesn't understand why there are respectful ways of communicating with others wouldn't try to participate in a discussion outside of their own grunting and groaning on the sidelines. It really takes away from your significance in the whole process when you say things like you said.
I have to get onto my 6th grade students for saying stuff like that.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe BTW Nullpax, I wasn't claiming that taxes had anything at all to do with MMO games (even if they do to some extent). You were implying that someone that doesn't back the monthly fee, or support the deadly sin of greed as a virtue, is somehow less than moral. I just pointed out that a rather depressing observation about the current evolution of our class structure. Also, The poor don't get taxed? You must be a neocon of some stripe. Most poor people work. Many poor people work more than one job. The actual percentage of people that are unemployed is right around 6 percent. In the U.S., that's 18 million out of 300 million. The rest of the poor are underemployed and working multiple minimum wage jobs. Hence, they pay the same 25 to 30% of their income to taxes that the middle class do. The upper 1% of the income bracket pay less than 3% income tax now that we've done away with the capital gains tax. Since games are sold by volume, especially MMO games, wouldn't it make sense to create games that were affordable by the largest number of people? And don't poor and middle class people make up the largest cross section of the population? Hmmmm..... I wonder.......
Ermmm - I didn't say any of that - you have confused me for Elnator who posted after you,
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Also, The poor don't get taxed? You must be a neocon of some stripe. Most poor people work. Many poor people work more than one job. The actual percentage of people that are unemployed is right around 6 percent. In the U.S., that's 18 million out of 300 million. The rest of the poor are underemployed and working multiple minimum wage jobs. Hence, they pay the same 25 to 30% of their income to taxes that the middle class do. The upper 1% of the income bracket pay less than 3% income tax now that we've done away with the capital gains tax. Since games are sold by volume, especially MMO games, wouldn't it make sense to create games that were affordable by the largest number of people? And don't poor and middle class people make up the largest cross section of the population? Hmmmm..... I wonder.......
Tax credits? Believe me, I was lucky enough to experience being in the lower class after college. My income was so low, my tax liability went to 0 and I even recieved about $500 above my refund. Basically, I paid no income tax (state or federal) for 2 years.
If lower income families are paying 25% to 30% in taxes annually, they need to find a better accountant (there are plenty of experienced free services out there). Not saying that lower income families don't need assistance, but your characterization is somewhat incorrect.
When I was in that tax bracket I had much more to worry about then buying and playing games. Why as a company would I create a product that would cater to a demographic that may have problems buying my game, let alone the equipment needed to run it? It might be a nice gesture, but not a great business model.
Conversely I wouldn't soley target just the upper class. They can afford it, but that demographic is relatively small. My main target, as with most companies, is the middle class. Disposable income is the friend of the entertainment industry. ^_^
I might also contend with MMO games relying on volume sales. I'd argue that monthly fees is what drives revenue.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm going to make on last off topic post on this and then hopefully we'll be back on subject.
I made about $28,000 last year which (sadly) is a personal income record for me. For the last 12 years, the most I've gotten refunded was about $400 and that was about a fourth of what I put into income tax. Maybe if you had actually been reading your taxes rather than dumping them on an accountant, you'd understand what was really going on. I also realize that the definition of "poverty level" changes from region to region. Where I'm at, you can rent a two bedroom apartment and have lights, water, heat, and cable for under $500 a month. In Chicago or New York, you wouldn't be able to sleep on the subway with that kind of money.
The US has a progressive tax system that goes by percent of income. 25% is the standard for ALL working Americans. It's when you have income that doesn't come from work that you begin to see loop holes and work arounds. There are no taxes on capital gains and we're currently trying to do away with the estate tax. And don't give me that shit about welfare. If you've ever lived in a house that needed some form of welfare, you'd relize that many welfare programs seem to be designed to encourage underemployment. If you make over a certain amount, they pull out all of your benifits and you're left with bills that you can't pay even with the greater income. And we're not talking cable or car payments. We're talking food, shelter, clothing and heat.
As for "having bigger things to worry about than buying games"..... Even the poorest of working Americans can scrape $10 to $15 together once or twice a year. Most poor people are buying used (or stolen) consoles or computers for their homes and used (or pirated) games to play on them. Let's not forget that it took the XBox three years to start selling, and that was mainly because the price dropped to about $250 new, $150 used. The Next Gen consoles are supposed to be priced around $400 a pop and require an HDTV!!! "As much as the market will bear" seems to be a point that we're about to reach. There is going to be a bust and some serious fallout very soon. The developers that survive will be the ones that can crank out $20 casual titles that don't take a super cooled, silcon grapics cluster to play. The ones that die out will be those developers that are making CG movies with "gamepaly" swapped in for the action sequences.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe My personal policy is that I will pay for the box or a monthly fee of $10 or less, but not both. I'm also not a big fan of paying $180 a year to play ONE game. Between $50 and $70 is more than resonable for one game in one year. Again, this is something I do as a consumer, your mileage may vary.BTW Elnator, I wasn't claiming that taxes had anything at all to do with MMO games (even if they do to some extent). You were implying that someone that doesn't back the monthly fee, or support the deadly sin of greed as a virtue, is somehow less than moral. I just pointed out that a rather depressing observation about the current evolution of our class structure. Also, The poor don't get taxed? You must be a neocon of some stripe. Most poor people work. Many poor people work more than one job. The actual percentage of people that are unemployed is right around 6 percent. In the U.S., that's 18 million out of 300 million. The rest of the poor are underemployed and working multiple minimum wage jobs. Hence, they pay the same 25 to 30% of their income to taxes that the middle class do. The upper 1% of the income bracket pay less than 3% income tax now that we've done away with the capital gains tax. Since games are sold by volume, especially MMO games, wouldn't it make sense to create games that were affordable by the largest number of people? And don't poor and middle class people make up the largest cross section of the population? Hmmmm..... I wonder.......
Huh? I was? I don't recall saying that. I said anyone who doesn't understand why companies charge a fee is clueless. Not imoral. I do agree that the fees are too high but that's because the PLAYERS are willing to pay that fee. But there are recurring costs in JUST keeping an MMORPG up. Not to mention developing new content, fixing bugs, tweaking gameplay, etc. Those all cost money. And box sales eventually dry up.
I'm not going to argue politics with you but if you really want to know how taxes work in this country talk to a tax consultant and they'll enlighten you as to how the tax code favors the poor and rich and rapes the middle class.
As for who can afford these games I hate to break it to you but I was playing MMORPG's when I was unemployed and affording it just fine. $12.95 - $15.00 a month is NOT a lot of money, even to the destitute. I do agree that, in principle, game companies are charging a tad too much. I think they should have stayed at 9.95 a month instead of raising them to, I think the most expensive are currently $14.95 a month. But they're hardly "unafordable" to the 'majority' of people.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Lets see, getting close to 3k in tax refunds vs. $500 and I'm the one that doesn't understand. Besides, using Turbo Tax and having an ability to read doesn't take much effort. I only mentioned accounting services, because they're available if needed.
Please, you're making the excuse 'just because I can't afford it, I still deserve it'. Again, people at that income level shouldn't be wasting their money on games. Even $150 for an XBox is too expensive, or at least better be, for people that are worrying if they can feed and shelter themselves or not.
I'm sure that's why companies like Microsoft quickly went out of business, they were actually charging for their products lol. No, gaming companies that pay attention to their profits while maintaining good customer relations will be the successful ones.
I guarantee you, Blizzard will still be among the top publishers five years from now and it won't be due to pushing out $20 titles. It'll be due to a quality games and good business practices, which atm includes monthly fees.
Monthly fees represent a service to drive revenue for the gamin company. If you don't find value in the service, no one's going to force you to keep paying. I can't afford everything I want, but I'm not going to cry about how unfair it is. I'm either going to make sacrifices in other areas of my budget, or work harder to earn a better paycheck.
The market will decide whether fees will survive or not. I'd love to see fees reduced or all together removed, but I'm finding value in paying them because I really enjoy the titles I play.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe The US has a progressive tax system that goes by percent of income. 25% is the standard for ALL working Americans.
Wrong
When I was making $15,000 a year I had 0% taken out of my paycheck in taxes. I was below the income margin when you begin to get taxed. Reason: I got 100% of my taxes back every year. Yes, I payed taxes but I got a full refund EVERY year and with the 'credits' I was actually MAKING Money off the government.
From about 20k to about 29k you are taxed between 20% and 26%. Though the pain isn't that bad at this point and you get most of it back in your refund.
Over 30k you start getting hit with bigger percentages. By 50k annual salary you are paying over 30% in taxes.
By 80k you are paying around 36% in taxes
And it keeps going *UP*
Now, once you cross the threshhold where you can start sinking money into real estate, stocks, bonds, etc you can start getting AROUND The taxes
Thus my statement: POOR families, with incomes under $30k a year are taxed LESS than the Middle Class families making between $35k and $90k a year.
Upper middle class are in the same boat as the 'middle class'
UPPER class (top 2%) making over $150,000 a year can start taking advantage of the loopholes and 'alternative' income sources to 'reduce' their tax liability.
So I stand by my statement: The poor are hardly *taxed* at all. The middle class and upper middle class bears the brunt of the TAX burden The upper class has the highest taxes but has so many loopholes that they get around most of them.
Mind you: I *like* that the poor are taxed least. Anyone making under a certain income should be tax exempt, in my opinion. However, I am a big fan of the FLAT TAX with NO LOOPHOLES that begins at $30,000 annual income but unfortunately our wunnerful congress will never do it
That or go to a services tax model (a-la the "Fair Tax" idea) would be nice also. Since the wealthy spend more they would, effectively, be taxed more. Unfortunately it would be difficult to ensure the lower income folks weren't taxed too much.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
first option ofcourse ^^, it costs a lot to host and update a mmorpg all the time... and dont forgot... the people of the company doesnt work for free you know...
PotCO player Ex-WoW player, hackers screwed it up and blizzard is too lazy to give a shit
Originally posted by IcoGames Please, you're making the excuse 'just because I can't afford it, I still deserve it'. Again, people at that income level shouldn't be wasting their money on games. Even $150 for an XBox is too expensive, or at least better be, for people that are worrying if they can feed and shelter themselves or not.
Well, if those games and this silly X-box is a driving goal and an everyday motivation, even if it should not gets such a role...motivation is quite vital. Would someone be better with 3 meals per day and a lack of motivation or be motivated and only having 2 meals? The answer is clear, motivation is everything.
Those silly little game were never meant to be such a motivation, but again if someone take anything for motivation, it should be encouraged, not fighted. Where there is motivation, there is hope for a better future or at least a dream of it. Where there is no motivation there are crimes and suicides. Accepting them is the first step to understanding them.
I approve the monthly fees, since it bring better games. But to say someone with a low revenue should not spent it on games is the worst ill advice comment I ever heard. You are part of the problem, not the solution, you think the way of the persons who says: "I am fine, screw the others I don't care for them".
Blizzard in 5 years...well, you are again assuming a LOT. Blizzard can be nothing but memories in 5 years, they can also be the top publisher. 5 years is many generations of games. 5 years ago there were many big companies in the industry that are no more. WoW help them with $, but it cost them dearly fanbase-wise, this cost is yet to be evaluated at their next release.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye I approve the monthly fees, since it bring better games. But to say someone with a low revenue should not spent it on games is the worst ill advice comment I ever heard. You are part of the problem, not the solution, you think the way of the persons who says: "I am fine, screw the others I don't care for them".
Blizzard in 5 years...well, you are again assuming a LOT. Blizzard can be nothing but memories in 5 years, they can also be the top publisher. 5 years is many generations of games. 5 years ago there were many big companies in the industry that are no more. WoW help them with $, but it cost them dearly fanbase-wise, this cost is yet to be evaluated at their next release.
By your logic Anofalye people should consider buying games before they feed, clothe, or provide shelter for themselves and family. I'll teach people fiscal responsibility and getting what they want through hard work, while you keep feeding them with food stamps and buying games with welfare checks. Motivation's one thing, but so are priorities.
Your argument is not only fallacious, but immoral.
I know it pains you Anofalye to see Blizzard continue with it's success in World of Warcraft. I'm sure even Everquest will be kicking around in five years too.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
should consider buying games before they feed, clothe, or provide shelter for themselves and family?
Yeah, that isn't exactly what you wrote but I think it's in the spirit of things. This is really a corporate values issues. Marketing is the primary reason that you see people with $50,000 customized import cars living in trailer parks or studio apartments and working three minimum wage jobs. I agree that financial responsibility is a core value that needs to be developed. But if people were responsible and tight fisted with their cash, big companies couldn't make the kind of money they make. Our society revolves around corporations, so this creats a conflict of interest between the consumer and producers.
My philosiphy goes like this: Why take $50 from 200,000 people when you can take $5 from 20,000,000? This is part of the reason why arcades were so popular in the '80s and also why PC Bongs are so big in asia. The consumer doesn't have to own the equipment in order to play. The consumer also can play when they can afford to. Instead of going out and buying a $200+ console and a bunch of $20 used games, the consumer pays 25 cents per play or a few dollars per hour. It's affordable, unobtrusive, and can generate alot of revenue if done correctly. Casual is the future whether you want to admit it or not. The cost of developement, along with the time and man power required, has risen to a point that supply will be far lower than demand. Those "quality" titles take about 5 years to make, and news flash, The life span of a typcal console is about 5 years. There has to be a better way.
Yeah, Blizzard may very well still be in business in five years. I'm not going to guess who is or isn't going to be around in five years. Back in '98 I couldn't imaging Looking Glass going out of business, but they did. Strangely enough, I think Nintendo might be on to something by telling hardcore gamers to go fuck themselves. By making the Revolution cheaper, more versatile, and slighty less powerful than the competition, they'll be able to make more games (and more original games) than Sony or Microsoft. They'll also be able to sell way more units with the lower price tag. I also like the idea of PC Bongs. If the Bongs had to pay a percentage or a fee to offer certain games, developers could make just as much money as they would off of box sales or monthly fees. The price would still be passed on to the consumers, but it would be much more dispersed and allow more people to be play.
In the end, there are more business models to consider than just the monthly fee. With developement costs being what they are, and the number of hardcore gamers being very limited, publishers and developers are going to have to find new markets. That means finding a way to appeal to people that don't want monthly fees. GW currently has a good alternative. Project Entropia is workable even if that particular game executed it poorly. And I'm sure there are other ways to generate revenue. The corporate structure is adverse to risk, so they aren't going to look for new ways. It'll depend on the smaller, independant developers to find an alternative that works before the big boys come along and play. Make no mistake however, it WILL happen.
Originally posted by Rattrap Ok. WoW was mentioned. 4 million people are playing this game and they each pay 15$ monthly (not mentioning 50$ for initial purcase) That my friends comes to 60000000 $ (60 million monthly) or 720 million dollars a year.Let see what we get form this. 1. Overcrowded laggy servers 2. Horrible support and overbooked support 3. Mizerable joke of expansion ....this all cost Blizzard maximum 5 million dolar monthly , and this is overstatement. So what do we got company that cashes 55 million dolars a month. Well what can I tell - good for them..very good....Let them rot with their god damn money while whole countries in africa are dying of hunger. Your question : is monthly fee really justified.Answer is: No , not really - At least not 15$
its truly amazing when one looks upon it this way. When glancing at the $15 monthly fee for one person, it really is not too bad, but when you look at each of the subscribers in the entire world, paying this particular amount, it adds up incredibly. 60 million dollars a month!
1st Part Yeah, that isn't exactly what you wrote but I think it's in the spirit of things. This is really a corporate values issues. Marketing is the primary reason that you see people with $50,000 customized import cars living in trailer parks or studio apartments and working three minimum wage jobs. I agree that financial responsibility is a core value that needs to be developed. But if people were responsible and tight fisted with their cash, big companies couldn't make the kind of money they make. Our society revolves around corporations, so this creats a conflict of interest between the consumer and producers.
....
2nd Part In the end, there are more business models to consider than just the monthly fee. With developement costs being what they are, and the number of hardcore gamers being very limited, publishers and developers are going to have to find new markets. That means finding a way to appeal to people that don't want monthly fees. GW currently has a good alternative. Project Entropia is workable even if that particular game executed it poorly. And I'm sure there are other ways to generate revenue. The corporate structure is adverse to risk, so they aren't going to look for new ways. It'll depend on the smaller, independant developers to find an alternative that works before the big boys come along and play. Make no mistake however, it WILL happen.
To the 1st part: Now you know why there's so much consumer debt. If people would be more responsible with their money, instead of making monthly compounding interest payments to creditors, they'd have more disposable income in the long run.
To the 2nd part: I wouldn't call 4 million subscribers limited. As the developers for Pirates of the Burning Sea have noted recently, Asia is the new market. Blizzard has shown that you can make a product that will be successful in both the US and Asian markets. I think more mmo companies will reach out to the Asian markets long before they consider dropping monthly fees.
Yes Guild Wars has no monthly fees currently, but do you think NCSoft would've have done that without the financial support of it's larger titles, such Lineage II and City of Heros/Villians? I don't think so.
Also, I don't see Bill Gates dropping fees for XBox Live? I think the market still sees value with on-line fees, and I can't really see that changing any time soon. Would I like it to? Absolutely, I'd love to play my favorite MMO titles with no monthly cost.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Yes Guild Wars has no monthly fees currently, but do you think NCSoft would've have done that without the financial support of it's larger titles, such Lineage II and City of Heros/Villians?
Actually, yes I think they would have due to the lower overhead that Guild Wars requires. almost everything is instanced and the persistant areas have a maximum of 150 players at a time. This means that they can do more with less bandwidth and server space. City of Heroes was kind of a testing ground for this sort of thing. It had more persistant areas with larger populations, so scrapping the monthly fee would have been dangerous during it's start up.
I wouldn't call 4 million subscribers limited.
When you compare it to the number of casual gamers and non-gamers, it is. Throw in the fact that "hardcore" gamers are the whinniest bunch on the planet and you can understand why producing smaller games for casual gamers is so much more appealing. With the time and money it took to make Half-Life 2, you could have made 10 to 20 budget games and probably sold more copies of each than HL2 will sell over the next two years.
Are monthly fees going away? Nope. Are they going to get smaller? YES. I honestly see the whole industry shifting to a direct download, rental / subscription model with no retail. In other words, you'll either Pay per Play or you'll pay a subscription to play a particular offering of games. I also see the whole industry going portable in a very iPod kind of way within the next 10 years. There will always be games for "hardcore" gamers, but they'll be marginalized to niche. The rest of the industry is going to be similar to the arcade scene of old, but fit for a PDA / cell phone service.
If you don't think that the industry is going casual, chew on this: The most popular title on the DS in Japan is "Brain Training for Adults". It was made in 3 months by less than 10 people for under $500,000. It sold over one million copies at $35 a pop!! Now then, are you going to back one project that takes $20 million and 5 years, or are you going to put your money into the project that'll go gold in three months for less than $500,000? I don't believe you'll have to think to hard on it.
Comments
My personal policy is that I will pay for the box or a monthly fee of $10 or less, but not both. I'm also not a big fan of paying $180 a year to play ONE game. Between $50 and $70 is more than resonable for one game in one year. Again, this is something I do as a consumer, your mileage may vary.
BTW Elnator, I wasn't claiming that taxes had anything at all to do with MMO games (even if they do to some extent). You were implying that someone that doesn't back the monthly fee, or support the deadly sin of greed as a virtue, is somehow less than moral. I just pointed out that a rather depressing observation about the current evolution of our class structure.
Also, The poor don't get taxed? You must be a neocon of some stripe. Most poor people work. Many poor people work more than one job. The actual percentage of people that are unemployed is right around 6 percent. In the U.S., that's 18 million out of 300 million. The rest of the poor are underemployed and working multiple minimum wage jobs. Hence, they pay the same 25 to 30% of their income to taxes that the middle class do. The upper 1% of the income bracket pay less than 3% income tax now that we've done away with the capital gains tax. Since games are sold by volume, especially MMO games, wouldn't it make sense to create games that were affordable by the largest number of people? And don't poor and middle class people make up the largest cross section of the population? Hmmmm..... I wonder.......
That wasn't very nice Elnator. Why would you say something like that to someone?
You think that if someone doesn't understand something they're not supposed to ask? Very logical. I guess he wasn't born with that innate knowledge you've been blessed with.
I ask that anyone who doesn't understand why there are respectful ways of communicating with others wouldn't try to participate in a discussion outside of their own grunting and groaning on the sidelines. It really takes away from your significance in the whole process when you say things like you said.
I have to get onto my 6th grade students for saying stuff like that.
basically, maintenence of servers cost alot of money, and of course the hard working devs at the companies!(Only some) -_-
basically, maintenence of servers cost alot of money, and of course the hard working devs at the companies!(Only some) -_-
Ermmm - I didn't say any of that - you have confused me for Elnator who posted after you,
sorry Null. Didn't mean to unload on the wrong person like that.
Tax credits? Believe me, I was lucky enough to experience being in the lower class after college. My income was so low, my tax liability went to 0 and I even recieved about $500 above my refund. Basically, I paid no income tax (state or federal) for 2 years.
If lower income families are paying 25% to 30% in taxes annually, they need to find a better accountant (there are plenty of experienced free services out there). Not saying that lower income families don't need assistance, but your characterization is somewhat incorrect.
When I was in that tax bracket I had much more to worry about then buying and playing games. Why as a company would I create a product that would cater to a demographic that may have problems buying my game, let alone the equipment needed to run it? It might be a nice gesture, but not a great business model.
Conversely I wouldn't soley target just the upper class. They can afford it, but that demographic is relatively small. My main target, as with most companies, is the middle class. Disposable income is the friend of the entertainment industry. ^_^
I might also contend with MMO games relying on volume sales. I'd argue that monthly fees is what drives revenue.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm going to make on last off topic post on this and then hopefully we'll be back on subject.
I made about $28,000 last year which (sadly) is a personal income record for me. For the last 12 years, the most I've gotten refunded was about $400 and that was about a fourth of what I put into income tax. Maybe if you had actually been reading your taxes rather than dumping them on an accountant, you'd understand what was really going on. I also realize that the definition of "poverty level" changes from region to region. Where I'm at, you can rent a two bedroom apartment and have lights, water, heat, and cable for under $500 a month. In Chicago or New York, you wouldn't be able to sleep on the subway with that kind of money.
The US has a progressive tax system that goes by percent of income. 25% is the standard for ALL working Americans. It's when you have income that doesn't come from work that you begin to see loop holes and work arounds. There are no taxes on capital gains and we're currently trying to do away with the estate tax. And don't give me that shit about welfare. If you've ever lived in a house that needed some form of welfare, you'd relize that many welfare programs seem to be designed to encourage underemployment. If you make over a certain amount, they pull out all of your benifits and you're left with bills that you can't pay even with the greater income. And we're not talking cable or car payments. We're talking food, shelter, clothing and heat.
As for "having bigger things to worry about than buying games"..... Even the poorest of working Americans can scrape $10 to $15 together once or twice a year. Most poor people are buying used (or stolen) consoles or computers for their homes and used (or pirated) games to play on them. Let's not forget that it took the XBox three years to start selling, and that was mainly because the price dropped to about $250 new, $150 used. The Next Gen consoles are supposed to be priced around $400 a pop and require an HDTV!!! "As much as the market will bear" seems to be a point that we're about to reach. There is going to be a bust and some serious fallout very soon. The developers that survive will be the ones that can crank out $20 casual titles that don't take a super cooled, silcon grapics cluster to play. The ones that die out will be those developers that are making CG movies with "gamepaly" swapped in for the action sequences.
Huh? I was? I don't recall saying that. I said anyone who doesn't understand why companies charge a fee is clueless. Not imoral. I do agree that the fees are too high but that's because the PLAYERS are willing to pay that fee. But there are recurring costs in JUST keeping an MMORPG up. Not to mention developing new content, fixing bugs, tweaking gameplay, etc. Those all cost money. And box sales eventually dry up.
I'm not going to argue politics with you but if you really want to know how taxes work in this country talk to a tax consultant and they'll enlighten you as to how the tax code favors the poor and rich and rapes the middle class.
As for who can afford these games I hate to break it to you but I was playing MMORPG's when I was unemployed and affording it just fine. $12.95 - $15.00 a month is NOT a lot of money, even to the destitute. I do agree that, in principle, game companies are charging a tad too much. I think they should have stayed at 9.95 a month instead of raising them to, I think the most expensive are currently $14.95 a month. But they're hardly "unafordable" to the 'majority' of people.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Lets see, getting close to 3k in tax refunds vs. $500 and I'm the one that doesn't understand.
Besides, using Turbo Tax and having an ability to read doesn't take much effort. I only mentioned accounting services, because they're available if needed.
Please, you're making the excuse 'just because I can't afford it, I still deserve it'. Again, people at that income level shouldn't be wasting their money on games. Even $150 for an XBox is too expensive, or at least better be, for people that are worrying if they can feed and shelter themselves or not.
I'm sure that's why companies like Microsoft quickly went out of business, they were actually charging for their products lol. No, gaming companies that pay attention to their profits while maintaining good customer relations will be the successful ones.
I guarantee you, Blizzard will still be among the top publishers five years from now and it won't be due to pushing out $20 titles. It'll be due to a quality games and good business practices, which atm includes monthly fees.
Monthly fees represent a service to drive revenue for the gamin company. If you don't find value in the service, no one's going to force you to keep paying. I can't afford everything I want, but I'm not going to cry about how unfair it is. I'm either going to make sacrifices in other areas of my budget, or work harder to earn a better paycheck.
The market will decide whether fees will survive or not. I'd love to see fees reduced or all together removed, but I'm finding value in paying them because I really enjoy the titles I play.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Wrong
When I was making $15,000 a year I had 0% taken out of my paycheck in taxes. I was below the income margin when you begin to get taxed. Reason: I got 100% of my taxes back every year. Yes, I payed taxes but I got a full refund EVERY year and with the 'credits' I was actually MAKING Money off the government.
From about 20k to about 29k you are taxed between 20% and 26%. Though the pain isn't that bad at this point and you get most of it back in your refund.
Over 30k you start getting hit with bigger percentages. By 50k annual salary you are paying over 30% in taxes.
By 80k you are paying around 36% in taxes
And it keeps going *UP*
Now, once you cross the threshhold where you can start sinking money into real estate, stocks, bonds, etc you can start getting AROUND The taxes
Thus my statement:
POOR families, with incomes under $30k a year are taxed LESS than the Middle Class families making between $35k and $90k a year.
Upper middle class are in the same boat as the 'middle class'
UPPER class (top 2%) making over $150,000 a year can start taking advantage of the loopholes and 'alternative' income sources to 'reduce' their tax liability.
So I stand by my statement:
The poor are hardly *taxed* at all.
The middle class and upper middle class bears the brunt of the TAX burden
The upper class has the highest taxes but has so many loopholes that they get around most of them.
Mind you: I *like* that the poor are taxed least. Anyone making under a certain income should be tax exempt, in my opinion. However, I am a big fan of the FLAT TAX with NO LOOPHOLES that begins at $30,000 annual income but unfortunately our wunnerful congress will never do it
That or go to a services tax model (a-la the "Fair Tax" idea) would be nice also. Since the wealthy spend more they would, effectively, be taxed more. Unfortunately it would be difficult to ensure the lower income folks weren't taxed too much.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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PotCO player
Ex-WoW player, hackers screwed it up and blizzard is too lazy to give a shit
Well, if those games and this silly X-box is a driving goal and an everyday motivation, even if it should not gets such a role...motivation is quite vital. Would someone be better with 3 meals per day and a lack of motivation or be motivated and only having 2 meals? The answer is clear, motivation is everything.
Those silly little game were never meant to be such a motivation, but again if someone take anything for motivation, it should be encouraged, not fighted. Where there is motivation, there is hope for a better future or at least a dream of it. Where there is no motivation there are crimes and suicides. Accepting them is the first step to understanding them.
I approve the monthly fees, since it bring better games. But to say someone with a low revenue should not spent it on games is the worst ill advice comment I ever heard. You are part of the problem, not the solution, you think the way of the persons who says: "I am fine, screw the others I don't care for them".
Blizzard in 5 years...well, you are again assuming a LOT. Blizzard can be nothing but memories in 5 years, they can also be the top publisher. 5 years is many generations of games. 5 years ago there were many big companies in the industry that are no more. WoW help them with $, but it cost them dearly fanbase-wise, this cost is yet to be evaluated at their next release.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
By your logic Anofalye people should consider buying games before they feed, clothe, or provide shelter for themselves and family. I'll teach people fiscal responsibility and getting what they want through hard work, while you keep feeding them with food stamps and buying games with welfare checks. Motivation's one thing, but so are priorities.
Your argument is not only fallacious, but immoral.
I know it pains you Anofalye to see Blizzard continue with it's success in World of Warcraft. I'm sure even Everquest will be kicking around in five years too.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
IcoGames wrote:
should consider buying games before they feed, clothe, or provide shelter for themselves and family?
Yeah, that isn't exactly what you wrote but I think it's in the spirit of things. This is really a corporate values issues. Marketing is the primary reason that you see people with $50,000 customized import cars living in trailer parks or studio apartments and working three minimum wage jobs. I agree that financial responsibility is a core value that needs to be developed. But if people were responsible and tight fisted with their cash, big companies couldn't make the kind of money they make. Our society revolves around corporations, so this creats a conflict of interest between the consumer and producers.
My philosiphy goes like this: Why take $50 from 200,000 people when you can take $5 from 20,000,000? This is part of the reason why arcades were so popular in the '80s and also why PC Bongs are so big in asia. The consumer doesn't have to own the equipment in order to play. The consumer also can play when they can afford to. Instead of going out and buying a $200+ console and a bunch of $20 used games, the consumer pays 25 cents per play or a few dollars per hour. It's affordable, unobtrusive, and can generate alot of revenue if done correctly. Casual is the future whether you want to admit it or not. The cost of developement, along with the time and man power required, has risen to a point that supply will be far lower than demand. Those "quality" titles take about 5 years to make, and news flash, The life span of a typcal console is about 5 years. There has to be a better way.
Yeah, Blizzard may very well still be in business in five years. I'm not going to guess who is or isn't going to be around in five years. Back in '98 I couldn't imaging Looking Glass going out of business, but they did. Strangely enough, I think Nintendo might be on to something by telling hardcore gamers to go fuck themselves. By making the Revolution cheaper, more versatile, and slighty less powerful than the competition, they'll be able to make more games (and more original games) than Sony or Microsoft. They'll also be able to sell way more units with the lower price tag. I also like the idea of PC Bongs. If the Bongs had to pay a percentage or a fee to offer certain games, developers could make just as much money as they would off of box sales or monthly fees. The price would still be passed on to the consumers, but it would be much more dispersed and allow more people to be play.
In the end, there are more business models to consider than just the monthly fee. With developement costs being what they are, and the number of hardcore gamers being very limited, publishers and developers are going to have to find new markets. That means finding a way to appeal to people that don't want monthly fees. GW currently has a good alternative. Project Entropia is workable even if that particular game executed it poorly. And I'm sure there are other ways to generate revenue. The corporate structure is adverse to risk, so they aren't going to look for new ways. It'll depend on the smaller, independant developers to find an alternative that works before the big boys come along and play. Make no mistake however, it WILL happen.
its truly amazing when one looks upon it this way. When glancing at the $15 monthly fee for one person, it really is not too bad, but when you look at each of the subscribers in the entire world, paying this particular amount, it adds up incredibly. 60 million dollars a month!
To the 1st part:
Now you know why there's so much consumer debt. If people would be more responsible with their money, instead of making monthly compounding interest payments to creditors, they'd have more disposable income in the long run.
To the 2nd part:
I wouldn't call 4 million subscribers limited. As the developers for Pirates of the Burning Sea have noted recently, Asia is the new market. Blizzard has shown that you can make a product that will be successful in both the US and Asian markets. I think more mmo companies will reach out to the Asian markets long before they consider dropping monthly fees.
Yes Guild Wars has no monthly fees currently, but do you think NCSoft would've have done that without the financial support of it's larger titles, such Lineage II and City of Heros/Villians? I don't think so.
Also, I don't see Bill Gates dropping fees for XBox Live? I think the market still sees value with on-line fees, and I can't really see that changing any time soon. Would I like it to? Absolutely, I'd love to play my favorite MMO titles with no monthly cost.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
IcoGames wrote:
Yes Guild Wars has no monthly fees currently, but do you think NCSoft would've have done that without the financial support of it's larger titles, such Lineage II and City of Heros/Villians?
Actually, yes I think they would have due to the lower overhead that Guild Wars requires. almost everything is instanced and the persistant areas have a maximum of 150 players at a time. This means that they can do more with less bandwidth and server space. City of Heroes was kind of a testing ground for this sort of thing. It had more persistant areas with larger populations, so scrapping the monthly fee would have been dangerous during it's start up.
I wouldn't call 4 million subscribers limited.
When you compare it to the number of casual gamers and non-gamers, it is. Throw in the fact that "hardcore" gamers are the whinniest bunch on the planet and you can understand why producing smaller games for casual gamers is so much more appealing. With the time and money it took to make Half-Life 2, you could have made 10 to 20 budget games and probably sold more copies of each than HL2 will sell over the next two years.
Are monthly fees going away? Nope. Are they going to get smaller? YES. I honestly see the whole industry shifting to a direct download, rental / subscription model with no retail. In other words, you'll either Pay per Play or you'll pay a subscription to play a particular offering of games. I also see the whole industry going portable in a very iPod kind of way within the next 10 years. There will always be games for "hardcore" gamers, but they'll be marginalized to niche. The rest of the industry is going to be similar to the arcade scene of old, but fit for a PDA / cell phone service.
If you don't think that the industry is going casual, chew on this: The most popular title on the DS in Japan is "Brain Training for Adults". It was made in 3 months by less than 10 people for under $500,000. It sold over one million copies at $35 a pop!! Now then, are you going to back one project that takes $20 million and 5 years, or are you going to put your money into the project that'll go gold in three months for less than $500,000? I don't believe you'll have to think to hard on it.