Originally posted by Kinchyle I was more immmersed than any MMO I had played previous....and I think the OP would do well to figure out that a game is a game. Not some "take you you away to a special worl" kinda thing...
Actually that's what MMOs were always intended to be... It's only post-WoW that they've lost that.
Actually that's what MMOs were always intended to be... It's only post-WoW that they've lost that.
Highly debatable
All one has to do is simply look at forums like these to realize players are just as much at a loss
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I think one of the main reasons why I was not immersed in GW2 was because of the lack of quests. While their event system is cool, I absolutely despise hearts because they have 0 story behind them. In games like WoW you have quests which you read (at least I did) and they tell you a story. Some of them were cheesy but there was a lot of them which were very interesting and most importantly they gave you some backgroud around what you were doing.
In GW2 hearts just feel like a shopping list of things to do with no context unless you go to the NPC which gives you 2 scrappy lines. And they also don't connect like quest chains do.
In my opinion GW2 should've went for traditional quests and events and personal storyline. Would've made it much more immersive. Hearts just suck
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I thought world exploration and emersion were the games strong points. I had a friend try to play after heavily playing Tera, and I think it was difficult for him to adjust back to less active combat, though to me that was another one of the games strengths. I got bored at end game is why I quit. The whole PVE level grind was fun once through, could maybe level some alts with friends, but none of them play it anymore. lol.
^ The hearts on the map were npcs with the story and the details of the quest. Their system made it optional.
Actually that's what MMOs were always intended to be... It's only post-WoW that they've lost that.
Highly debatable
All one has to do is simply look at forums like these to realize players are just as much at a loss
It's not really debatable at all... look at any pre-WoW MMO and you'll see system after system designed to simulate a virtual world. Housing, in-depth craftfing, player economies, politics, meaningful factions, a requirement for social interaction, persistant player relationships, meaningful travel... things weren't easy but the world felt alive and every player had a place in it.
WoW was the first game to try to make MMOs more 'convenient' and in doing so gutted most of the features that made a virtual world, it was still an immersive game but not on the same level as its predecessors. Since then the genre has been systematically exterminating systems that create immersion in the interest of making things more convenient for casual players. The only thing left is the graphical representation of the world itself and whatever lore they cobbled together (and no, those alone do not make a game immersive, immersion comes from the interaction with the world).
It's probably worth noting that several upcoming MMOs are seeing a return of housing and other immersive systems so the devs are clearly seeing demand for these things after such a long absence.
It's not really debatable at all... look at any pre-WoW MMO and you'll see system after system designed to simulate a virtual world. Housing, in-depth craftfing, player economies, politics, meaningful factions, a requirement for social interaction, persistant player relationships, meaningful travel... things weren't easy but the world felt alive and every player had a place in it.
WoW was the first game to try to make MMOs more 'convenient' and in doing so gutted most of the features that made a virtual world, it was still an immersive game but not on the same level as its predecessors. Since then the genre has been systematically exterminating systems that create immersion in the interest of making things more convenient for casual players. The only thing left is the graphical representation of the world itself and whatever lore they cobbled together (and no, those alone do not make a game immersive, immersion comes from the interaction with the world).
It's probably worth noting that several upcoming MMOs are seeing a return of housing and other immersive systems so the devs are clearly seeing demand for these things after such a long absence.
System after system? Really? There a few but not many.
...and while everyone tries to blame WoW for all the mmo woes that really isn't the case. All Wow did was mainsteam mmos.
Hope you're right that these new mmos wiil infuse the industry. Really doubt it though. God knows we've heard it enough fucking times already:
VG was going to
GW was going to
STO was going to
AoC was going to
FFWhatever was going to
DCU was going to
CO was going to
GW2 was going to
SWTOR was going to
The list goes on and on.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It's not really debatable at all... look at any pre-WoW MMO and you'll see system after system designed to simulate a virtual world. Housing, in-depth craftfing, player economies, politics, meaningful factions, a requirement for social interaction, persistant player relationships, meaningful travel... things weren't easy but the world felt alive and every player had a place in it.
WoW was the first game to try to make MMOs more 'convenient' and in doing so gutted most of the features that made a virtual world, it was still an immersive game but not on the same level as its predecessors. Since then the genre has been systematically exterminating systems that create immersion in the interest of making things more convenient for casual players. The only thing left is the graphical representation of the world itself and whatever lore they cobbled together (and no, those alone do not make a game immersive, immersion comes from the interaction with the world).
It's probably worth noting that several upcoming MMOs are seeing a return of housing and other immersive systems so the devs are clearly seeing demand for these things after such a long absence.
The las tthing i want is virtual simulation of RL.
The last thing i want is house i need to keep clean and upkeep...in a game. I have that in RL
The last thing i want is to HAVE TO spend few hours just to get from point A to point B
The last thing i want is to sit at crafting table for hours to "maybe" produce 1 component of some item. Not to mention lol RNG crafting systems.
The last thing i need is bots running the economy (aka "player driven economy")
The last thing i need in a game is politics, i get waaaaaaay too much of that in RL
The last thing i need is being forced to "social interactivness", i want to hang out with other people because i WANT to not because im FORCED to.
No, the devs arent "clearly seeing demand" for these.
GW2 is most immersive MMO ive played in 13 years, world is almost alive, exploration is great, cooperation between people is great, it has great (involved) combat system, and in the end, it doesnt FORCE you to do stuff. Its really a breath of fresh air after a loong loong time of staleness.
They need to deal with lag in huge groups of people (120-150+ in my experience) and culling though.
And its really funny
"waypointing break my immersion". Dont do it then, duh. Yah, its that easy, dont blame the game becaus eof your laziness ;P
"POIs and vistas on map break my immersion". Turn them off, duh? Besides, theres a lot to explore besides POIs and vistas, those are not only exploration points (even if you do get xp and nice cutscene for them)
It is fun how people cant find stuff when they aren't in their face and if it is in their face they complain.
No, exploration isn't limited to the stuff marked in the game map.
After getting 100% of the markers on each zone there will be zones left to explore that are required for the exploraton achievement.
Jumping puzzles also aren't marked in the map.
Chests aren't marked in the map.
Mini dungeons aren't marked in the map.
The game has crazy verticality - it is crazy how often one find a cave or whatever and go down and down and down or up and up and up when from the outside one would never imagine it would be so big.
Also it is clear most people never reached levels where waypoint cost is between 2s and 5s. Most people won't burn the daily reward on a single waypoint travel.
if you don't like a check list, don't use the map or turn off the markers (press "m" lower left "eye icon" untick whatever you don't want).
Immersion is a word that mean everything and so it means nothing.
For myself immersion is when I look a the clock and instead of being midnight is 3 in the morning - GW2 does that for me.
I guess for others immersion is to stop feeling you are playing a game - No game has ever done that to me.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I actually made posts articulating the same feelings right after release, but everyone told me I was the only one and that GW2 is the most immersive experience they ever had. Actually you still see a lot of those kind of posts. Often they post screenshots that are absolutely beautifull, but that has little to do with immersion. Neither does a vast and active game world. It relates to it, but its doesn't cover everything that has to do with immersion.
For me personally its mostly the UI and how central it is when you undertake actions in the gameworld. The Ui really feels like a lose layer not directly integrated into the actual game world. For example, you can level up skills directly trough the interface but this has no relation to anything in the game world. Same goes for the teleporting, you click on something on the minimap and boom loadscreen. The UI does not connect to my character at all, my caracter doesn't cast a teleport animation or something like that. This and a lot more things that are established through the UI make it so that I feel disconnected to my character. UI's are there to create the connection from the actual player to the virtual world. The UI GW does a poor job at doing this in a subtle way, and therefore making GW2 more feel like an actual game, than a virtual world that you immerse yourself in.
TL;DR: The UI of GW2, while beautifull and artistic does a poor job at creating a subtle connection between player and virtual game world. Too much is regulated directly and solely through the UI, making the UI feel as a seperate layer of the game and not something part of the virtual world.
I actually made posts articulating the same feelings right after release, but everyone told me I was the only one and that GW2 is the most immersive experience they ever had. Actually you still see a lot of those kind of posts. Often they post screenshots that are absolutely beautifull, but that has little to do with immersion. Neither does a vast and active game world. It relates to it, but its doesn't cover everything that has to do with immersion.
For me personally its mostly the UI and how central it is when you undertake actions in the gameworld. The Ui really feels like a lose layer not directly integrated into the actual game world. For example, you can level up skills directly trough the interface but this has no relation to anything in the game world. Same goes for the teleporting, you click on something on the minimap and boom loadscreen. The UI does not connect to my character at all, my caracter doesn't cast a teleport animation or something like that. This and a lot more things that are established through the UI make it so that I feel disconnected to my character. UI's are there to create the connection from the actual player to the virtual world. The UI GW does a poor job at doing this in a subtle way, and therefore making GW2 more feel like an actual game, than a virtual world that you immerse yourself in.
TL;DR: The UI of GW2, while beautifull and artistic does a poor job at creating a subtle connection between player and virtual game world. Too much is regulated directly and solely through the UI, making the UI feel as a seperate layer of the game and not something part of the virtual world.
And exactly how much of the time are you map travelling or buying skills?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I actually made posts articulating the same feelings right after release, but everyone told me I was the only one and that GW2 is the most immersive experience they ever had. Actually you still see a lot of those kind of posts. Often they post screenshots that are absolutely beautifull, but that has little to do with immersion. Neither does a vast and active game world. It relates to it, but its doesn't cover everything that has to do with immersion.
For me personally its mostly the UI and how central it is when you undertake actions in the gameworld. The Ui really feels like a lose layer not directly integrated into the actual game world. For example, you can level up skills directly trough the interface but this has no relation to anything in the game world. Same goes for the teleporting, you click on something on the minimap and boom loadscreen. The UI does not connect to my character at all, my caracter doesn't cast a teleport animation or something like that. This and a lot more things that are established through the UI make it so that I feel disconnected to my character. UI's are there to create the connection from the actual player to the virtual world. The UI GW does a poor job at doing this in a subtle way, and therefore making GW2 more feel like an actual game, than a virtual world that you immerse yourself in.
TL;DR: The UI of GW2, while beautifull and artistic does a poor job at creating a subtle connection between player and virtual game world. Too much is regulated directly and solely through the UI, making the UI feel as a seperate layer of the game and not something part of the virtual world.
And exactly how much of the time are you map travelling or buying skills?
Arn't you always traveling? And isnt skills part of the process of growth of the character in the game world? Arn't those especially the things that are crucial to RPGs? The direction GW2 took was more action than RPG, so if guess that explains the reason it works this way in GW2. But its not only the examples i gave, the UI acts on its own, for example the constant popups and directions etc. Giving me UI medals, for accomplishments. UI medals that have 0 relation to the actual world, same goes for random achievements, or simply discovering certain places on the map. When you communicate too much through the UI instead of the world it feels more like a game than a world.
While undoubtedly beautiful eyecandy, scenic =/= immersive.
It is a beautiful game, but it does feel a little prefabricated at times, its still a great game and amazing the first and second time around which is more than can be said of a lot of mmo's. But I can see where the op is coming from, it does feel systematic when you delve into the game beyond PVE leveling.
i can see that but I compare this to other themeparks and when the standard themepark is filled with static npcs everywhere and a world that doesn't move/change at all I really can't see how people can complain gw2 feels less immersive than most other themeparks
And yet, I gave GW2 a brief try, completed one starter zone, got a character up to 15, and yet, the game feels less immersive than Aion which I went back to.
I'm not quite sure why, and plan to go back and perhaps try a different race/class, because the Charr Guardian story really wasn't grabbing me. Leader of a blood war band and all that, in fact the character's reaction in the story line frequently isn't at all how I would have handled a situation, he was all about jumping in with much bravedo and crushing his opponents.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I originally posted this on another thread by accident. It was supposed to go here :P
Though I didn't read every reply, I think I only saw a few examples of games that supposedly did immersion better than GW2. Lotro and WoW. I'm currently playing Lotro (again) and their environments are still incredible, but their character animations are a complete turn off. Always have been, but GW2's animations at least follow the 12 principles of animation and are very fluid and give the illusion of life. On the other hand, WoW has great animation but the world is hard to get immersed into now due to its low polycount for today's standards. Back in 2005 it was a different story.
GW2 so far is the superior game for immersion when it comes to both animation and game environment, hands down. Any other examples that people have to compare?
I'm the one who mentioned Lotro and WoW. I agree that the character animations and avatars are ugly in Lotro, but I felt the environment was so well done that it drowned out those negatives when it comes to immersion. For me landscape and zone design as well as sound design are the first things to suck me into a world i.e. immersion factor.
WoW now is a bit different yeah, but my memories of it are mostly comprised of Vanilla through Lich King, and I always felt immersed, mostly due to the sound design, music included. WoW combat has always "felt" more visceral and the sheer amount of polish in the game really helps with immersion.
You mention GW2 is being superior in immersion and animation and game environment, all of which I enjoy in GW2, but never once did I feel a connection to my character or that the World felt like a world. While beautiful I still find GW2 zone design lacking, more along the foundation aspect as opposed to the glossy surface, if that makes any sense. It's a bit difficult to pinpoint exactly but there is something off just enough to ruin immersion. I even enjoy the sound design in GW2, so not quite sure what exactly is missing.
Originally posted by Kinchyle I was more immmersed than any MMO I had played previous....and I think the OP would do well to figure out that a game is a game. Not some "take you you away to a special worl" kinda thing...
This is where I disagree. This genre is all about "take you to a special world" and is why I play it above all other game types. Why do you think people have been annoyed with each MMO since WoW? Because they've been going the opposite way from being living worlds. Tons of threads on this subject on these forums too , so don't just take my word for it.
I think the main offender in this case are the instant-portals paired with the cut off rectangular zones. There is no exotic part of the world that you can't get to within 2 minutes. In my last hours of beta i ran from one end of the map to the other without using portals, that was immersive, and a beautiful sight to behold all the way. It really made the world feel as large as it is. Now someone's going to argue "well keep doing that then, portals are optional". Just don't, it's not a valid argument. I can't tell my dungeon party to wait for 1.5 hours while i embark on a heroic journey to our destination. Even if i had such patient and understanding friends, the knowledge of the portal and that they are already there waiting because they used it, breaks it.
GW2 is a beautiful game by all means, but the portals just takes away from it's true potential in my opinion. While understandably practical in todays expectations of instant gratification, there is no doubt that the world would feel much larger and exotic if it was done in another way.
The zone-borders and narrow doorway-portals between them is a technical limitation. I understand why they are there. But in an ideal fantasy-world, removing them would also add alot to the immersion and sense of scale.
The world looks kind of big and polished, but it does not give you the right feeling, like other games with way worser graphics did. Every area felt somehow the same and I just had the feeling to press screeenshot when i reached a "viewpoint by jumping up somethere". I remember aoc gave you a living feeling in khitai where i had to press screenshot button every 2 minutes.
I think the main offender in this case are the instant-portals paired with the cut off rectangular zones. There is no exotic part of the world that you can't get to within 2 minutes. In my last hours of beta i ran from one end of the map to the other without using portals, that was immersive, and a beautiful sight to behold all the way. It really made the world feel as large as it is. Now someone's going to argue "well keep doing that then, portals are optional". Just don't, it's not a valid argument. I can't tell my dungeon party to wait for 1.5 hours while i embark on a heroic journey to our destination. Even if i had such patient and understanding friends, the knowledge of the portal and that they are already there waiting because they used it, breaks it.
GW2 is a beautiful game by all means, but the portals just takes away from it's true potential in my opinion. While understandably practical in todays expectations of instant gratification, there is no doubt that the world would feel much larger and exotic if it was done in another way.
The zone-borders and narrow doorway-portals between them is a technical limitation. I understand why they are there. But in an ideal fantasy-world, removing them would also add alot to the immersion and sense of scale.
I agree with you, most of the zones look really good while you're in them but much of it gets missed while porting around. I also found the fact that almost every zone is a perfect rectangle to be a little silly and clearly unrealistic.
Couple that with the limited and narrow entry / exit points and load times between zones and you've got a lot of little things that can easy ruin the immersion for many players.
The reason GW2 is the least immersive MMO I have ever played is that there is way too much important information on the minimap and map. I find myself looking at them instead of the game world most of the time since it tells me what and where to "explore" (or visit the places the game already explored for me).
To be honest i found LOTRO to be just as beautiful as GW2 but far, far more immersive. LOTRO goes a long way in making you feel like you are part of the world instead of the merry go round that is GW2. Yes you do have a lot of fed x quests in lotro but so does GW2 with those heart quests, you know, the npcs with the quest markers above there heads that look like yellow hearts.
In lotro you know that somewhere in the world frodo and co are on the move and sooner or later your paths will cross. Aragorn in the parancing pony or Gandalf sending on your merry way. Then you have skirmishes and epic book quests, GW2 is stale and lifeless when you actually stand back and look at it through fanboy eyes.
It's a pity because the game world looks great but that don't mean shit if the the world actually feels devoid of any life.
I think the main offender in this case are the instant-portals paired with the cut off rectangular zones. There is no exotic part of the world that you can't get to within 2 minutes. In my last hours of beta i ran from one end of the map to the other without using portals, that was immersive, and a beautiful sight to behold all the way. It really made the world feel as large as it is. Now someone's going to argue "well keep doing that then, portals are optional". Just don't, it's not a valid argument. I can't tell my dungeon party to wait for 1.5 hours while i embark on a heroic journey to our destination. Even if i had such patient and understanding friends, the knowledge of the portal and that they are already there waiting because they used it, breaks it.
GW2 is a beautiful game by all means, but the portals just takes away from it's true potential in my opinion. While understandably practical in todays expectations of instant gratification, there is no doubt that the world would feel much larger and exotic if it was done in another way.
The zone-borders and narrow doorway-portals between them is a technical limitation. I understand why they are there. But in an ideal fantasy-world, removing them would also add alot to the immersion and sense of scale.
And thats exactly why you wil never get AAA game you want.
Concept:
Ill run there today (few hoours)
Tomorrow ill play dungeon (few hours)
And then day after tomorrow ill run back (few hours)
is extreme niche and so obvious timesinks that it hurts.
i dont really know why you and people like you hang around AAA MMOs since they obviously dont provide things you want and instead go (back) to those games that do.
And instant gratification? So, playing 100 hours through crap just to have 1 hour of fun is "way to go"?
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
To be honest i found LOTRO to be just as beautiful as GW2 but far, far more immersive. LOTRO goes a long way in making you feel like you are part of the world instead of the merry go round that is GW2. Yes you do have a lot of fed x quests in lotro but so does GW2 with those heart quests, you know, the npcs with the quest markers above there heads that look like yellow hearts.
In lotro you know that somewhere in the world frodo and co are on the move and sooner or later your paths will cross. Aragorn in the parancing pony or Gandalf sending on your merry way. Then you have skirmishes and epic book quests, GW2 is stale and lifeless when you actually stand back and look at it through fanboy eyes.
It's a pity because the game world looks great but that don't mean shit if the the world actually feels devoid of any life.
Quite opposite, while LOTROs art is beautiful and Turbine did awesome job of bringing ME online, LOTROs world is lifeless and static and ultra bring gameplay wise (like all of the games of that kind) which broke immersion a lot. I mean, i just did quest and set fellowship on their way. WTF are they STILL in Rivendell just as they were before i did that quest? (you can apply this to 99,99% of quests). Now if that isnt immersion breaking i dont know what is.
OTOH GW2s world is beautiful and alive and you can immerse yorself in it completely.
I was also very disappointed with the immersion. For me the two points that ruin the imerrsion is generally instancing and the fast travel/portals. The casual features alwasy goes against the immersion, but in case of GW2 it goes too far.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
GW2 has most emersive world design i've ever had the pleasure of playing!
still... i don't feel emersed. It's a strang feeling really. I think it has to do with the travel system and the way the world is build up.
Say what you want but if GW2 would be seamless without portals / teleporting and instead make use of travel systems (boats zeppelins w/e) and maybe mounts this game would feel extremely different.
Then again, i don't know if that would fix everything but it would be a good first step.
Still this game is the best MMO i've played since 2004
I have to say that for me, the original Guild Wars was much more immersive than the second, maybe because it was a lobby game and the adventure felt much more personal, not seeing other players around except for the cities and outposts. And the story was much more interesting, it's one of my favorite worlds ever created. I felt the same with FFXI and it was zoned too, almost every MMO is zoned, the "seamless" worlds are, in fact, very rare in MMOs, so arguing that zones breaks immersion is simply stupid, we had immersion before WoW, the original EverQuest was one of the most immersive games in the story of MMOs and it was zoned too.
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Comments
Actually that's what MMOs were always intended to be... It's only post-WoW that they've lost that.
Highly debatable
All one has to do is simply look at forums like these to realize players are just as much at a loss
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I think one of the main reasons why I was not immersed in GW2 was because of the lack of quests. While their event system is cool, I absolutely despise hearts because they have 0 story behind them. In games like WoW you have quests which you read (at least I did) and they tell you a story. Some of them were cheesy but there was a lot of them which were very interesting and most importantly they gave you some backgroud around what you were doing.
In GW2 hearts just feel like a shopping list of things to do with no context unless you go to the NPC which gives you 2 scrappy lines. And they also don't connect like quest chains do.
In my opinion GW2 should've went for traditional quests and events and personal storyline. Would've made it much more immersive. Hearts just suck
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I thought world exploration and emersion were the games strong points. I had a friend try to play after heavily playing Tera, and I think it was difficult for him to adjust back to less active combat, though to me that was another one of the games strengths. I got bored at end game is why I quit. The whole PVE level grind was fun once through, could maybe level some alts with friends, but none of them play it anymore. lol.
^ The hearts on the map were npcs with the story and the details of the quest. Their system made it optional.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
It's not really debatable at all... look at any pre-WoW MMO and you'll see system after system designed to simulate a virtual world. Housing, in-depth craftfing, player economies, politics, meaningful factions, a requirement for social interaction, persistant player relationships, meaningful travel... things weren't easy but the world felt alive and every player had a place in it.
WoW was the first game to try to make MMOs more 'convenient' and in doing so gutted most of the features that made a virtual world, it was still an immersive game but not on the same level as its predecessors. Since then the genre has been systematically exterminating systems that create immersion in the interest of making things more convenient for casual players. The only thing left is the graphical representation of the world itself and whatever lore they cobbled together (and no, those alone do not make a game immersive, immersion comes from the interaction with the world).
It's probably worth noting that several upcoming MMOs are seeing a return of housing and other immersive systems so the devs are clearly seeing demand for these things after such a long absence.
It´s about as immersive as any Super Mario 3-D game.
High fantasy cartoony look and different playfields to run around and kill stuff. There is nothing "realistic" about this game to get immersed in.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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The Return of ELITE !
System after system? Really? There a few but not many.
...and while everyone tries to blame WoW for all the mmo woes that really isn't the case. All Wow did was mainsteam mmos.
Hope you're right that these new mmos wiil infuse the industry. Really doubt it though. God knows we've heard it enough fucking times already:
VG was going to
GW was going to
STO was going to
AoC was going to
FFWhatever was going to
DCU was going to
CO was going to
GW2 was going to
SWTOR was going to
The list goes on and on.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The las tthing i want is virtual simulation of RL.
The last thing i want is house i need to keep clean and upkeep...in a game. I have that in RL
The last thing i want is to HAVE TO spend few hours just to get from point A to point B
The last thing i want is to sit at crafting table for hours to "maybe" produce 1 component of some item. Not to mention lol RNG crafting systems.
The last thing i need is bots running the economy (aka "player driven economy")
The last thing i need in a game is politics, i get waaaaaaay too much of that in RL
The last thing i need is being forced to "social interactivness", i want to hang out with other people because i WANT to not because im FORCED to.
No, the devs arent "clearly seeing demand" for these.
GW2 is most immersive MMO ive played in 13 years, world is almost alive, exploration is great, cooperation between people is great, it has great (involved) combat system, and in the end, it doesnt FORCE you to do stuff. Its really a breath of fresh air after a loong loong time of staleness.
They need to deal with lag in huge groups of people (120-150+ in my experience) and culling though.
And its really funny
"waypointing break my immersion". Dont do it then, duh. Yah, its that easy, dont blame the game becaus eof your laziness ;P
"POIs and vistas on map break my immersion". Turn them off, duh? Besides, theres a lot to explore besides POIs and vistas, those are not only exploration points (even if you do get xp and nice cutscene for them)
Its like blaming food making you bulimic lol
It is fun how people cant find stuff when they aren't in their face and if it is in their face they complain.
No, exploration isn't limited to the stuff marked in the game map.
After getting 100% of the markers on each zone there will be zones left to explore that are required for the exploraton achievement.
Jumping puzzles also aren't marked in the map.
Chests aren't marked in the map.
Mini dungeons aren't marked in the map.
The game has crazy verticality - it is crazy how often one find a cave or whatever and go down and down and down or up and up and up when from the outside one would never imagine it would be so big.
Also it is clear most people never reached levels where waypoint cost is between 2s and 5s. Most people won't burn the daily reward on a single waypoint travel.
if you don't like a check list, don't use the map or turn off the markers (press "m" lower left "eye icon" untick whatever you don't want).
Immersion is a word that mean everything and so it means nothing.
For myself immersion is when I look a the clock and instead of being midnight is 3 in the morning - GW2 does that for me.
I guess for others immersion is to stop feeling you are playing a game - No game has ever done that to me.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
As you can see in my pics....i have no problems with "inmersion" whatsoever :P
I actually made posts articulating the same feelings right after release, but everyone told me I was the only one and that GW2 is the most immersive experience they ever had. Actually you still see a lot of those kind of posts. Often they post screenshots that are absolutely beautifull, but that has little to do with immersion. Neither does a vast and active game world. It relates to it, but its doesn't cover everything that has to do with immersion.
For me personally its mostly the UI and how central it is when you undertake actions in the gameworld. The Ui really feels like a lose layer not directly integrated into the actual game world. For example, you can level up skills directly trough the interface but this has no relation to anything in the game world. Same goes for the teleporting, you click on something on the minimap and boom loadscreen. The UI does not connect to my character at all, my caracter doesn't cast a teleport animation or something like that. This and a lot more things that are established through the UI make it so that I feel disconnected to my character. UI's are there to create the connection from the actual player to the virtual world. The UI GW does a poor job at doing this in a subtle way, and therefore making GW2 more feel like an actual game, than a virtual world that you immerse yourself in.
TL;DR: The UI of GW2, while beautifull and artistic does a poor job at creating a subtle connection between player and virtual game world. Too much is regulated directly and solely through the UI, making the UI feel as a seperate layer of the game and not something part of the virtual world.
And exactly how much of the time are you map travelling or buying skills?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Arn't you always traveling? And isnt skills part of the process of growth of the character in the game world? Arn't those especially the things that are crucial to RPGs? The direction GW2 took was more action than RPG, so if guess that explains the reason it works this way in GW2. But its not only the examples i gave, the UI acts on its own, for example the constant popups and directions etc. Giving me UI medals, for accomplishments. UI medals that have 0 relation to the actual world, same goes for random achievements, or simply discovering certain places on the map. When you communicate too much through the UI instead of the world it feels more like a game than a world.
And yet, I gave GW2 a brief try, completed one starter zone, got a character up to 15, and yet, the game feels less immersive than Aion which I went back to.
I'm not quite sure why, and plan to go back and perhaps try a different race/class, because the Charr Guardian story really wasn't grabbing me. Leader of a blood war band and all that, in fact the character's reaction in the story line frequently isn't at all how I would have handled a situation, he was all about jumping in with much bravedo and crushing his opponents.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm the one who mentioned Lotro and WoW. I agree that the character animations and avatars are ugly in Lotro, but I felt the environment was so well done that it drowned out those negatives when it comes to immersion. For me landscape and zone design as well as sound design are the first things to suck me into a world i.e. immersion factor.
WoW now is a bit different yeah, but my memories of it are mostly comprised of Vanilla through Lich King, and I always felt immersed, mostly due to the sound design, music included. WoW combat has always "felt" more visceral and the sheer amount of polish in the game really helps with immersion.
You mention GW2 is being superior in immersion and animation and game environment, all of which I enjoy in GW2, but never once did I feel a connection to my character or that the World felt like a world. While beautiful I still find GW2 zone design lacking, more along the foundation aspect as opposed to the glossy surface, if that makes any sense. It's a bit difficult to pinpoint exactly but there is something off just enough to ruin immersion. I even enjoy the sound design in GW2, so not quite sure what exactly is missing.
This is where I disagree. This genre is all about "take you to a special world" and is why I play it above all other game types. Why do you think people have been annoyed with each MMO since WoW? Because they've been going the opposite way from being living worlds. Tons of threads on this subject on these forums too , so don't just take my word for it.
I think the main offender in this case are the instant-portals paired with the cut off rectangular zones. There is no exotic part of the world that you can't get to within 2 minutes. In my last hours of beta i ran from one end of the map to the other without using portals, that was immersive, and a beautiful sight to behold all the way. It really made the world feel as large as it is. Now someone's going to argue "well keep doing that then, portals are optional". Just don't, it's not a valid argument. I can't tell my dungeon party to wait for 1.5 hours while i embark on a heroic journey to our destination. Even if i had such patient and understanding friends, the knowledge of the portal and that they are already there waiting because they used it, breaks it.
GW2 is a beautiful game by all means, but the portals just takes away from it's true potential in my opinion. While understandably practical in todays expectations of instant gratification, there is no doubt that the world would feel much larger and exotic if it was done in another way.
The zone-borders and narrow doorway-portals between them is a technical limitation. I understand why they are there. But in an ideal fantasy-world, removing them would also add alot to the immersion and sense of scale.
I agree with you, most of the zones look really good while you're in them but much of it gets missed while porting around. I also found the fact that almost every zone is a perfect rectangle to be a little silly and clearly unrealistic.
Couple that with the limited and narrow entry / exit points and load times between zones and you've got a lot of little things that can easy ruin the immersion for many players.
The reason GW2 is the least immersive MMO I have ever played is that there is way too much important information on the minimap and map. I find myself looking at them instead of the game world most of the time since it tells me what and where to "explore" (or visit the places the game already explored for me).
To be honest i found LOTRO to be just as beautiful as GW2 but far, far more immersive. LOTRO goes a long way in making you feel like you are part of the world instead of the merry go round that is GW2. Yes you do have a lot of fed x quests in lotro but so does GW2 with those heart quests, you know, the npcs with the quest markers above there heads that look like yellow hearts.
In lotro you know that somewhere in the world frodo and co are on the move and sooner or later your paths will cross. Aragorn in the parancing pony or Gandalf sending on your merry way. Then you have skirmishes and epic book quests, GW2 is stale and lifeless when you actually stand back and look at it through fanboy eyes.
It's a pity because the game world looks great but that don't mean shit if the the world actually feels devoid of any life.
And thats exactly why you wil never get AAA game you want.
Concept:
Ill run there today (few hoours)
Tomorrow ill play dungeon (few hours)
And then day after tomorrow ill run back (few hours)
is extreme niche and so obvious timesinks that it hurts.
i dont really know why you and people like you hang around AAA MMOs since they obviously dont provide things you want and instead go (back) to those games that do.
And instant gratification? So, playing 100 hours through crap just to have 1 hour of fun is "way to go"?
Quite opposite, while LOTROs art is beautiful and Turbine did awesome job of bringing ME online, LOTROs world is lifeless and static and ultra bring gameplay wise (like all of the games of that kind) which broke immersion a lot. I mean, i just did quest and set fellowship on their way. WTF are they STILL in Rivendell just as they were before i did that quest? (you can apply this to 99,99% of quests). Now if that isnt immersion breaking i dont know what is.
OTOH GW2s world is beautiful and alive and you can immerse yorself in it completely.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
GW2 has most emersive world design i've ever had the pleasure of playing!
still... i don't feel emersed. It's a strang feeling really. I think it has to do with the travel system and the way the world is build up.
Say what you want but if GW2 would be seamless without portals / teleporting and instead make use of travel systems (boats zeppelins w/e) and maybe mounts this game would feel extremely different.
Then again, i don't know if that would fix everything but it would be a good first step.
Still this game is the best MMO i've played since 2004
I have to say that for me, the original Guild Wars was much more immersive than the second, maybe because it was a lobby game and the adventure felt much more personal, not seeing other players around except for the cities and outposts. And the story was much more interesting, it's one of my favorite worlds ever created. I felt the same with FFXI and it was zoned too, almost every MMO is zoned, the "seamless" worlds are, in fact, very rare in MMOs, so arguing that zones breaks immersion is simply stupid, we had immersion before WoW, the original EverQuest was one of the most immersive games in the story of MMOs and it was zoned too.
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...