In this week's Rant, Bill Murphy takes on the sandbox versus theme-park debate in a different way. Why is the content a problem child of the MMO industry, and what can be done to fix it?
Do you ever get the impression you can identify his posting identity, by the repetitious nature of the video's OP?
"I've read this, once or twice (or maybe 500 times) before."
No offense man, but you're just echoing, almost exactly...well, I'll keep my guess to myself.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Player controlled political, economic, and social meta-systems are perpetual content machines. Games too often limit "content" to killing things, whether that's NPCs or other players.
Things like the Foundry in STO are also great for creating a never-ending flow of scripted content. While the worry about quality is valid, a lot of it isn't any worse than the garbage that passes for quest content in most games.
Persistent combat and conquest are great if they are worked into the game in a way that's meaningful. WvW in GW2, however, is pointless - it's almost completely meaningless to the gameworld, and is nothing more than players killing each other for no reason. That type of PvP is better in games like EvE and Mortal Online because it can have a lot more impact on the gameworld.
Originally posted by Pivotelite Rift is a prime example, no matter how much content Trion produces, they can't keep their playerbase in the themepark model.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Rift, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Originally posted by Pivotelite Rift is a prime example, no matter how much content Trion produces, they can't keep their playerbase in the themepark model.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Roft, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Themepark model doesn't hold players anymore, name a themepark that is steadily growing over a long period of time, especially one with a subscription fee.
A themepark can not survive with a small playerbase and minimal revenue, content updates are needed regularly and a large playerbase is needed for the content.
Sandbox can survive with slow content updates and a niche playerbase, always has opportunities to expand even with limited revenue.
Thats the difference.
Rift seemed like it was doing okay but it was always somewhat declining and thats even with Trion pushing out more content than any other themepark game developers, GW2 isn't even subscription based and they pump out tons of content and still, GW2 is also not holding on to it's players.
WoW has been declining for a few years now... we don't see themeparks grow over time anymore unless they switch to F2P, but that is also only temporary growth, then they start the slide downwards again.
Originally posted by Pivotelite Rift is a prime example, no matter how much content Trion produces, they can't keep their playerbase in the themepark model.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Roft, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Can you give examples of some sandbox MMOs with that issue? The only ones I can think of are Darkfall and Mortal Online, but the problem there, in my opinion, is that they are shallow PVP games with little other content. Their flaw is that they follow the themepark path of offering little outside of fighting stuff to level then fighting players - a very linear and limiting design.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Rift, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
i agree
too often new content is only added for endgame zones
Originally posted by Pivotelite Rift is a prime example, no matter how much content Trion produces, they can't keep their playerbase in the themepark model.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Roft, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Themepark model doesn't hold players anymore, name a themepark that is steadily growing over a long period of time, especially one with a subscription fee.
A themepark can not survive with a small playerbase and minimal revenue, content updates are needed regularly and a large playerbase is needed for the content.
Sandbox can survive with slow content updates and a niche playerbase, always has opportunities to expand even with limited revenue.
Thats the difference.
Rift seemed like it was doing okay but it was always somewhat declining and thats even with Trion pushing out more content than any other themepark game developers, GW2 isn't even subscription based and they pump out tons of content and still, GW2 is also not holding on to it's players.
WoW has been declining for a few years now... we don't see themeparks grow over time anymore unless they switch to F2P, but that is also only temporary growth, then they start the slide downwards again.
You are missing the point, it cost so much to develop a game that a game with a small niche amount of players will not survive. Plain and simple. Sandbox games will always have a small niche player base, not everyone wants to play in one. People are complaining that GW2 is not releasing patches fast enough and you want them to be slowed down? I think we will see things speed up more than ever.
GW2 is packed currently - not sure where you are getting your information from....
Content is still king to me. But i see why its losing its king status. Devs arent being creative and original anymore. Maybe they need to hire fresh minds full of new ideas? i dont know. But designing Big and boring content is as bad as designing small and good ones. Im up for Big and Good content.
EVE Online is a great gem of an mmo even if I dont like it I see that its awesomly made, it just doesnt fit my playstyle.
Thats why I am hoping for something remarkable in World of Darkness which is also made by CCP
There is no other mmo that I see will offer anything signifiically different. There are still some good mmo's that I will play and like but nothing remarkable, its all the same.
When I started playing video games, we also had just discovered fire about the same time, Gameplay was King and its been true ever since.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
UO, EQ, AC, DAoC...these games launched and had people busy for MONTHS, if not a good YEAR before they had to worry about content updates. Many developers haven't been keeping up on that end, but their work would be a lot easier if they build better foundations to begin with. They were doing it over a decade ago, so it's obvious the suits and their pockets have been trumping the artform of game creation for a while now.
Originally posted by Pivotelite Rift is a prime example, no matter how much content Trion produces, they can't keep their playerbase in the themepark model.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Roft, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Themepark model doesn't hold players anymore, name a themepark that is steadily growing over a long period of time, especially one with a subscription fee.
A themepark can not survive with a small playerbase and minimal revenue, content updates are needed regularly and a large playerbase is needed for the content.
Sandbox can survive with slow content updates and a niche playerbase, always has opportunities to expand even with limited revenue.
Thats the difference.
Rift seemed like it was doing okay but it was always somewhat declining and thats even with Trion pushing out more content than any other themepark game developers, GW2 isn't even subscription based and they pump out tons of content and still, GW2 is also not holding on to it's players.
WoW has been declining for a few years now... we don't see themeparks grow over time anymore unless they switch to F2P, but that is also only temporary growth, then they start the slide downwards again.
You are missing the point, it cost so much to develop a game that a game with a small niche amount of players will not survive. Plain and simple. Sandbox games will always have a small niche player base, not everyone wants to play in one. People are complaining that GW2 is not releasing patches fast enough and you want them to be slowed down? I think we will see things speed up more than ever.
GW2 is packed currently - not sure where you are getting your information from....
EvE has 1/2m subscriptions, it is niche compared to WoW, but little else in the MMO world. If people budget correctly there is no reason why a sandbox is less likely for survival than a themepark.
not sure about darkfall but mortal onlines problem is the lack of black and white progression mechanics.. in eve the learning curve is steep yet the game mechanics are simple to undeerstand.. train skills run missions mine and build of thise base activities.. join a corp ask for direction get hundrefs of helping hands and simple fantastic ways to play eve until you discover your own way..
mortal is not so simple.. firstly hardly any one around sodifficult tofind basic help.. mecanics are a tad confuseing.. ui is terrible and nothing is straight forward.. which is a good thing really. problem with mortal is the newbie trap. its that hard to work basic things out at tge start and so dead it puts you off.. where as in eve. after tutorialthe first thing you see is a bustling space station with players coming and going..
Perhaps the issue is that new content is being added to games after the hard has given up and moved on from them?
The herd has one remarkably short attention span, and seems to be quite fond of snap judgements.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
@Distopia: In the video, and in numerous other places, I freely admit to enjoying themeparks. But that doesn't mean I can't wish for something more, as I have been lately. And let's face it, some themeparks are great experiences... for a time. But they're not lasting experiences, more often than not. That doesn't mean one can't appreciate both forms, even while preferring or wishing for the resurgence of another.
If you really love beef, but you live in a world where there's mostly chicken... you tend to learn to like chicken while wishing for prime rib.
I appreciate a game that can give me a solid few months of enjoyment. Hell that's more than most any offline game does. But sooner or later in a traditional themepark, you will hit a wall, and you will either have to claw away at it or go back to start and try again. Even at a casual pace, you'll run out of content.
In my eyes, as others have said, a blend of the two game types is probably our best bet at a wide-appeal MMO happening again. I have no grounds to base this on, but Wildstar seems to be doing a good bit of both. I hope it succeeds.
I figured I'd reply here as it's much easier to follow/read than on the video comments section.
fair enough..
I too enjoy a number of game types, while also having a certain preference toward more open ended player driven games. Since you took the time to explain your stance it's a little easier to swallow what you had to say in the video. Don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, just asking for a little clarity on the different messages you've sent out over the years.
I get what you're saying here as well, as it's about what you want to get from a game more so than much else. Right now my wife and I are playing SWTOR together, I've been having a blast doing so, we've never really gamed together before, I let her have her pick of game, and that was her choice (bioware/star wars fan). Regardless of my want for a sandbox/hybrid sort of game, I can still enjoy a game that's different than that. As long as it offers what I'd seek from it, TOR serves this purpose rather well. We're also thinking of getting TSW and GW2 to mess around in as well. I guess you could same we're on the same page here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Do you ever get the impression you can identify his posting identity, by the repetitious nature of the video's OP?
"I've read this, once or twice (or maybe 500 times) before."
No offense man, but you're just echoing, almost exactly...well, I'll keep my guess to myself.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
BestSigEver :P
Player controlled political, economic, and social meta-systems are perpetual content machines. Games too often limit "content" to killing things, whether that's NPCs or other players.
Things like the Foundry in STO are also great for creating a never-ending flow of scripted content. While the worry about quality is valid, a lot of it isn't any worse than the garbage that passes for quest content in most games.
Persistent combat and conquest are great if they are worked into the game in a way that's meaningful. WvW in GW2, however, is pointless - it's almost completely meaningless to the gameworld, and is nothing more than players killing each other for no reason. That type of PvP is better in games like EvE and Mortal Online because it can have a lot more impact on the gameworld.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
It has NOTHING to do with the Themepark model - a Sandbox would have the same issues (don't say it won't becuase it will). The issue is adding updates for players of all levels not just the high level players. In Rift, once you do a one toon from each faction, it is all repitition and at least there is 2 factions - TERA all races share the same areas. Nothing is new.
Themepark model doesn't hold players anymore, name a themepark that is steadily growing over a long period of time, especially one with a subscription fee.
A themepark can not survive with a small playerbase and minimal revenue, content updates are needed regularly and a large playerbase is needed for the content.
Sandbox can survive with slow content updates and a niche playerbase, always has opportunities to expand even with limited revenue.
Thats the difference.
Rift seemed like it was doing okay but it was always somewhat declining and thats even with Trion pushing out more content than any other themepark game developers, GW2 isn't even subscription based and they pump out tons of content and still, GW2 is also not holding on to it's players.
WoW has been declining for a few years now... we don't see themeparks grow over time anymore unless they switch to F2P, but that is also only temporary growth, then they start the slide downwards again.
Can you give examples of some sandbox MMOs with that issue? The only ones I can think of are Darkfall and Mortal Online, but the problem there, in my opinion, is that they are shallow PVP games with little other content. Their flaw is that they follow the themepark path of offering little outside of fighting stuff to level then fighting players - a very linear and limiting design.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i agree
too often new content is only added for endgame zones
EQ2 fan sites
You are missing the point, it cost so much to develop a game that a game with a small niche amount of players will not survive. Plain and simple. Sandbox games will always have a small niche player base, not everyone wants to play in one. People are complaining that GW2 is not releasing patches fast enough and you want them to be slowed down? I think we will see things speed up more than ever.
GW2 is packed currently - not sure where you are getting your information from....
EVE Online is a great gem of an mmo even if I dont like it I see that its awesomly made, it just doesnt fit my playstyle.
Thats why I am hoping for something remarkable in World of Darkness which is also made by CCP
There is no other mmo that I see will offer anything signifiically different. There are still some good mmo's that I will play and like but nothing remarkable, its all the same.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
EvE has 1/2m subscriptions, it is niche compared to WoW, but little else in the MMO world. If people budget correctly there is no reason why a sandbox is less likely for survival than a themepark.
mortal is not so simple.. firstly hardly any one around sodifficult tofind basic help.. mecanics are a tad confuseing.. ui is terrible and nothing is straight forward.. which is a good thing really. problem with mortal is the newbie trap. its that hard to work basic things out at tge start and so dead it puts you off.. where as in eve. after tutorialthe first thing you see is a bustling space station with players coming and going..
Perhaps the issue is that new content is being added to games after the hard has given up and moved on from them?
The herd has one remarkably short attention span, and seems to be quite fond of snap judgements.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I figured I'd reply here as it's much easier to follow/read than on the video comments section.
fair enough..
I too enjoy a number of game types, while also having a certain preference toward more open ended player driven games. Since you took the time to explain your stance it's a little easier to swallow what you had to say in the video. Don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, just asking for a little clarity on the different messages you've sent out over the years.
I get what you're saying here as well, as it's about what you want to get from a game more so than much else. Right now my wife and I are playing SWTOR together, I've been having a blast doing so, we've never really gamed together before, I let her have her pick of game, and that was her choice (bioware/star wars fan). Regardless of my want for a sandbox/hybrid sort of game, I can still enjoy a game that's different than that. As long as it offers what I'd seek from it, TOR serves this purpose rather well. We're also thinking of getting TSW and GW2 to mess around in as well. I guess you could same we're on the same page here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson