Look, I'm very much in favor of the sandbox MMO. I think the 'promise' of those early MMOs -- specifically UO -- has been absolutely betrayed by the direction the genre has gone in. Games like WoW sell everyone short; sacrificing immersion and the importance of creating an impactful character over metagaming.
But you have to be somewhat realistic. We still live in an age of internet outtages; of hacking; of simple mistakes. People are not Gods; they are not perfect. They screw up. Part of the fun of gaming -- one of its most crucial pillars, in fact -- is that the 'immortality' bestowed upon players allows them to learn. You can associate things like item wear, stat loss, skill loss, etc. with that learning, and that's fine. We've seen it work before, and it can work again.
However, to take that system to its most extreme is no better than WoW. I play MMOs to relax; to difuse; and, yes, to have fun. I love the building aspect of sandbox games; love the idea that you can ascend from nothingness to a powerful knight, or a king, or a great magician. But I'm not interested in embarking on the journey if I spend the entire time looking over my shoulder, waiting for someone to betray me or grief me. If EVE Online has proven anything, it's that if you give players a free hand, a small percentage of the population will make it their mission in life to disrupt all systems and introduce chaos. That's all well and good -- more power to those people -- but permadeath makes them too strong.
So, good luck TerVarus. But, at the same time, I hope you fail... because the last thing that MMORPGs need is some absolute, extreme, nut-job sandbox game that all the kiddies at WoW and Tera can scream and shout at and hold up like it's the pinacle of underachievement. All that's going to do is empower their position; make their case stronger; allow them to justify why WoW is as 'cuddly' as it is.
Hello Humphrie, and everyone else. Even the mighty will fall when their lives are on the line. Personally, I enjoy games with permadeath because of the difference in how you play them. Less headless chicken running around without consequence. More cooperation, learning from mistakes, and overall infinitely more exciting.
Let me tell you something. If WoW, GW2, or other typical MMO had PD, I would not enjoy it.. This is why ~ Those games are linear. Everyone starts in the same place and travels on the highway of progression so-to-speak. You then come to think of the aspect of leveling as 'work' that you must do in order to have the real fun later down the road. Losing that work would be frustrating because it's mostly a boring thing to go through.
The reason ToA is different to me is because there is no long highway. If you were to die, your settlement would happily give you back those innovations you lost, and craft the same gear you had before. However, you'd still need to improve your character in ways for example gaining more strength by using heavy armor, in order to run faster with it. The difference is that it would not take months and months to become a viable fighter again. The exception is mage, it's extremely difficult to become one. Also, the inability to know how strong other players are, would reduce the willingness of people to get in random fights constantlly.
Additionally, It's about skill. You won't find one character with 5 health and another wih 5 million. It's not like that at all. All that permadeath does is makie you more cautious in how you play but you won't lose so much when you die that you're likely to throw your moniter out the window.
With that said though, you will still be scared to lose lives and that should be the point. It is the point. If you can't get your head around it well it's not for everyone but I think some people are having thoughts about the game that are incorrect assumptions.
The last thing I want to bring up is how sad it is that the main thing people looking at is permadeath. ToA brings back the mystery to RPG's that seems to have been mostly lost. Nights are truly dark. You'll need a torch if you want to see much.. Many cave systems would be pitch black, and you'd be hesitant to go into them. You'll have to eat so you don't starve. Settlements can run their own farms with animals and all, for feeding its citizens. Weather conditions are a factor, so running around antartica with nothing but some cloth shorts and you'd freeze. The healing system consists of learning how to bandage, cure disease (which can spread), mending broken bones, not just cast a healing spell. People will find that cooperation is much easier than mindless killing.
Long story short, if you love survival games you will really love to learn more about this game. If you are not into that, no worries, just please realize that there are so many assumptions about how permadeath plays out here. Permadeath and context matter very much. I am not supportive of PD in all games, only some because the features need to be built around it.
Look, I'm very much in favor of the sandbox MMO. I think the 'promise' of those early MMOs -- specifically UO -- has been absolutely betrayed by the direction the genre has gone in. Games like WoW sell everyone short; sacrificing immersion and the importance of creating an impactful character over metagaming.
But you have to be somewhat realistic. We still live in an age of internet outtages; of hacking; of simple mistakes. People are not Gods; they are not perfect. They screw up. Part of the fun of gaming -- one of its most crucial pillars, in fact -- is that the 'immortality' bestowed upon players allows them to learn. You can associate things like item wear, stat loss, skill loss, etc. with that learning, and that's fine. We've seen it work before, and it can work again.
However, to take that system to its most extreme is no better than WoW. I play MMOs to relax; to difuse; and, yes, to have fun. I love the building aspect of sandbox games; love the idea that you can ascend from nothingness to a powerful knight, or a king, or a great magician. But I'm not interested in embarking on the journey if I spend the entire time looking over my shoulder, waiting for someone to betray me or grief me. If EVE Online has proven anything, it's that if you give players a free hand, a small percentage of the population will make it their mission in life to disrupt all systems and introduce chaos. That's all well and good -- more power to those people -- but permadeath makes them too strong.
So, good luck TerVarus. But, at the same time, I hope you fail... because the last thing that MMORPGs need is some absolute, extreme, nut-job sandbox game that all the kiddies at WoW and Tera can scream and shout at and hold up like it's the pinacle of underachievement. All that's going to do is empower their position; make their case stronger; allow them to justify why WoW is as 'cuddly' as it is.
Design with some moderation. Not tons, but some.
So you wish ToA luck and then HOPE it fails? That's like shaking someone's hand and saying "Good luck surviving the war but I hope you die" - Not only are you disingenuous but your logic is completely backwards.
Anyways,
When it comes to ToA, you first need to decide exactly how you view your character in an mmorpg to be. Do you view it as work? Where you grind everything, spend hundreds of hours trying to progress to the next level, the next spell, the next quest, etc? Persoanlly when I played wow, and I got through all of this and got to the end, I would stop and look at all of my equipment and I didn't feel any sense of pride. Instead I felt exausted. Like I had just fought my way through so much only to feel like crap on the other end. That's exactly how I feel when I get through an entire day of hard work in the real world. Why should playing a video game feel the same way?
Let's look back at old school games like Mario brothers. This game started you out with 3 lives (ToA = 100 lives) and you had to really understand the mechanics of the game if you wanted to get through the first level and if you lost all of your lives, you're back to square 1. And guess what? Mario brothers was one of THE most memorable games of all time and this was how all the old school games were like. X amount of lives and only X amount of continues. But it doesn't stop there - at the end of the day, you look back and think about how you enjoyed the experience. Yeah it sucked when you died but the enjoyment you got from the game still overshadowed that negative experience.
So you really need to take a new look at HOW you play your games. How you view things and try to view them in a new way. That's what ToA is all about. If you look at it the same way as you look at Wow, GW2 or any other game, you will have the wrong impression and wrong understanding.
Time and time again players have proven they will take the concepts of Developers and turn them on their head and exploit them to the very edges of what is possible in games.
In regards to the Perma-Death coupled with FFA PVP this just SCREAMS exploitable. What's to stop roaming bands of 3-5 players with a cookie cutter build rolling around repeatedly killing random players and generally making asses of themselves. If the skill and development system is as in-depth as it is claimed, people are going to put a lot of work into their characters only to find out that a small gang caught them at the bank or afk'ing for a moment and killed them and is now camping their corpse/respawn point.
I realize a lot of these issues can easily be answered with "lrn2playnoob" or something equally witty but many people play games to do just that. Play. It shouldn't feel like a job or a constant uphill struggle with people at the top of the hill throwing rocks down at you.
My suggestion, not that it means much, is one or the other. Perma-Death is fine but you need to allow the players as MUCH lattitude as possible to control their risk. In a perma-death or death penalized world, risk vs reward should be the name of the game.
In contrast, FFA PVP means risk is inherent in all that you do. You can't exactly reward someone for doing the EXTREME activity of walking along a road or any of the other mundane activities where they can get ganked by the ever present, friendly gank squads so the loss factor needs to be managed quite carefully here.
And before I start REALLY rambling I'm gonna call it. That's my 2 cents at least.
It's interesting to see both sides of the argument, while I do believe that PD is a good thing if handled the right way (I may be Biased as I am a follower of ToA and one of the Forum members). My recommendation is to check out the Forums or a few podcasts to get to know how the game works as a whole, not just one small part of it, as that, I think is the most important part of ToA. While as many have said, this is not for everyone, I still think that you should give it a chance, instead of outright refusing to touch it. It is also interesting to see several of my fellow forum members here trying to help ToA.
More challenged developers who think that they need perma death in a MMO to create a challenge. Earth to developers, it does not work that way!
Game sounded great until they had to throw in the PD. Won't fund it, nor touch it. Waste of my and everyone else's time.
Great concept though, would fund it if they dropped the perma death feature.
You know what one of the biggest complaints about sandbox games is the fact the you get some players that are of course maxed out becuse they have been playing a lot longer than anyone else.. so new characters have no chance in a pvp sandbox world.. now if its possible to totally loose your character then your going to think twice before maybe attacking that person in the starter town, hell you cant even con them to see how hard they are so you really have no idea.. do you take the risk that you can easily kill him for his loot? my guess would be no..
What they are suggesting sounds like a pretty good idea even vets who have played for a long time could possibly perma die leaving a hole for other newer players to fill.
Sounds good to me.. also the fact that its gonig to be a full on sandbox, with open pvp means the game will not be for everyone and im happy with that.
Over the next few years it looks like us sandbox/pvp lovers are going to ahve a lot of games to choose from.. will they have millions of people playing them like WOW? hell no and im happy with that..
You know nearly every mmo with perma-death in has eventually had perma-death ripped out or closed down right? You know why? Because it is the least liked or wanted feature in the genre, it's practically an mmo killing feature.
Comments
Permadeath? Uhm, nah. Thanks but no thanks.
Look, I'm very much in favor of the sandbox MMO. I think the 'promise' of those early MMOs -- specifically UO -- has been absolutely betrayed by the direction the genre has gone in. Games like WoW sell everyone short; sacrificing immersion and the importance of creating an impactful character over metagaming.
But you have to be somewhat realistic. We still live in an age of internet outtages; of hacking; of simple mistakes. People are not Gods; they are not perfect. They screw up. Part of the fun of gaming -- one of its most crucial pillars, in fact -- is that the 'immortality' bestowed upon players allows them to learn. You can associate things like item wear, stat loss, skill loss, etc. with that learning, and that's fine. We've seen it work before, and it can work again.
However, to take that system to its most extreme is no better than WoW. I play MMOs to relax; to difuse; and, yes, to have fun. I love the building aspect of sandbox games; love the idea that you can ascend from nothingness to a powerful knight, or a king, or a great magician. But I'm not interested in embarking on the journey if I spend the entire time looking over my shoulder, waiting for someone to betray me or grief me. If EVE Online has proven anything, it's that if you give players a free hand, a small percentage of the population will make it their mission in life to disrupt all systems and introduce chaos. That's all well and good -- more power to those people -- but permadeath makes them too strong.
So, good luck TerVarus. But, at the same time, I hope you fail... because the last thing that MMORPGs need is some absolute, extreme, nut-job sandbox game that all the kiddies at WoW and Tera can scream and shout at and hold up like it's the pinacle of underachievement. All that's going to do is empower their position; make their case stronger; allow them to justify why WoW is as 'cuddly' as it is.
Design with some moderation. Not tons, but some.
Hello Humphrie, and everyone else. Even the mighty will fall when their lives are on the line. Personally, I enjoy games with permadeath because of the difference in how you play them. Less headless chicken running around without consequence. More cooperation, learning from mistakes, and overall infinitely more exciting.
Let me tell you something. If WoW, GW2, or other typical MMO had PD, I would not enjoy it.. This is why ~ Those games are linear. Everyone starts in the same place and travels on the highway of progression so-to-speak. You then come to think of the aspect of leveling as 'work' that you must do in order to have the real fun later down the road. Losing that work would be frustrating because it's mostly a boring thing to go through.
The reason ToA is different to me is because there is no long highway. If you were to die, your settlement would happily give you back those innovations you lost, and craft the same gear you had before. However, you'd still need to improve your character in ways for example gaining more strength by using heavy armor, in order to run faster with it. The difference is that it would not take months and months to become a viable fighter again. The exception is mage, it's extremely difficult to become one. Also, the inability to know how strong other players are, would reduce the willingness of people to get in random fights constantlly.
Additionally, It's about skill. You won't find one character with 5 health and another wih 5 million. It's not like that at all. All that permadeath does is makie you more cautious in how you play but you won't lose so much when you die that you're likely to throw your moniter out the window.
With that said though, you will still be scared to lose lives and that should be the point. It is the point. If you can't get your head around it well it's not for everyone but I think some people are having thoughts about the game that are incorrect assumptions.
The last thing I want to bring up is how sad it is that the main thing people looking at is permadeath. ToA brings back the mystery to RPG's that seems to have been mostly lost. Nights are truly dark. You'll need a torch if you want to see much.. Many cave systems would be pitch black, and you'd be hesitant to go into them. You'll have to eat so you don't starve. Settlements can run their own farms with animals and all, for feeding its citizens. Weather conditions are a factor, so running around antartica with nothing but some cloth shorts and you'd freeze. The healing system consists of learning how to bandage, cure disease (which can spread), mending broken bones, not just cast a healing spell. People will find that cooperation is much easier than mindless killing.
Long story short, if you love survival games you will really love to learn more about this game. If you are not into that, no worries, just please realize that there are so many assumptions about how permadeath plays out here. Permadeath and context matter very much. I am not supportive of PD in all games, only some because the features need to be built around it.
So you wish ToA luck and then HOPE it fails? That's like shaking someone's hand and saying "Good luck surviving the war but I hope you die" - Not only are you disingenuous but your logic is completely backwards.
Anyways,
When it comes to ToA, you first need to decide exactly how you view your character in an mmorpg to be. Do you view it as work? Where you grind everything, spend hundreds of hours trying to progress to the next level, the next spell, the next quest, etc? Persoanlly when I played wow, and I got through all of this and got to the end, I would stop and look at all of my equipment and I didn't feel any sense of pride. Instead I felt exausted. Like I had just fought my way through so much only to feel like crap on the other end. That's exactly how I feel when I get through an entire day of hard work in the real world. Why should playing a video game feel the same way?
Let's look back at old school games like Mario brothers. This game started you out with 3 lives (ToA = 100 lives) and you had to really understand the mechanics of the game if you wanted to get through the first level and if you lost all of your lives, you're back to square 1. And guess what? Mario brothers was one of THE most memorable games of all time and this was how all the old school games were like. X amount of lives and only X amount of continues. But it doesn't stop there - at the end of the day, you look back and think about how you enjoyed the experience. Yeah it sucked when you died but the enjoyment you got from the game still overshadowed that negative experience.
So you really need to take a new look at HOW you play your games. How you view things and try to view them in a new way. That's what ToA is all about. If you look at it the same way as you look at Wow, GW2 or any other game, you will have the wrong impression and wrong understanding.
Time and time again players have proven they will take the concepts of Developers and turn them on their head and exploit them to the very edges of what is possible in games.
In regards to the Perma-Death coupled with FFA PVP this just SCREAMS exploitable. What's to stop roaming bands of 3-5 players with a cookie cutter build rolling around repeatedly killing random players and generally making asses of themselves. If the skill and development system is as in-depth as it is claimed, people are going to put a lot of work into their characters only to find out that a small gang caught them at the bank or afk'ing for a moment and killed them and is now camping their corpse/respawn point.
I realize a lot of these issues can easily be answered with "lrn2playnoob" or something equally witty but many people play games to do just that. Play. It shouldn't feel like a job or a constant uphill struggle with people at the top of the hill throwing rocks down at you.
My suggestion, not that it means much, is one or the other. Perma-Death is fine but you need to allow the players as MUCH lattitude as possible to control their risk. In a perma-death or death penalized world, risk vs reward should be the name of the game.
In contrast, FFA PVP means risk is inherent in all that you do. You can't exactly reward someone for doing the EXTREME activity of walking along a road or any of the other mundane activities where they can get ganked by the ever present, friendly gank squads so the loss factor needs to be managed quite carefully here.
And before I start REALLY rambling I'm gonna call it. That's my 2 cents at least.
You know nearly every mmo with perma-death in has eventually had perma-death ripped out or closed down right? You know why? Because it is the least liked or wanted feature in the genre, it's practically an mmo killing feature.