Okay, for this, first I'm going to start with the blue...
You're obviously trolling with that comment, as the game immediately tells you after you begin playing that it can be turned of with a single press of the 'z' button. It literally has a 'Z' on screen next to this text about the size of an average mans thumbnail. So I do not understand your complaint. If you don't like a fly-by-wire glowing trail of breadcrumbs, turn it off... I remember when I played PnP WoD VtM (ACRONYMS! >,< HAXOR) there was a background called Benefactor, which meant the GM could tell you hints whenever he felt you needed one in game... I like to think of a game with glowing breadcrumbs a benefactor, giving you a hint when you really need it, but something you can turn off (or silence with a coke & bourban) when you don't. And let's not forget, that one of WoW's most downloaded addons from Curse.com was actually this very thing, a quest organiser, designed to show you were to go to finish your quests in order, so popular, that Blizz built one of their own into their game...
GW3EN? I was never able to get into DDO when it launched. I got into it just after they announced the expansion Denizens of the Underdark and played it with my then flatmate. Our thoughts were, 'Wow! We have so much choice for our classes!' which soon turned into, 'Hey, I got told if I wanted my rogue to do more damage, I should've taken this feat, gotta reroll', which became 'Hey, I paid for that pack that allows you to start your adventures at level 10 instead of level 1 because I'm sick of rerolling noobs whenever I do something wrong', which led us to, 'Man, f*** this, we're in a level 20 raid/dungeon, and everyone is almost identical and zerging these bloody giant mesphits, I'm out.'
Point is, given all the unlimited options you were in DDO, people still theorycrafted the sh!t out of it. Given the paths of least effort for maximum reward, the community chose the same damn path, each and every time.
Neverwinter will probably be like that... But atleast it'll be like that, differently. I think...
Your two replies here are interesting to me.
About the "golden trail" imo it sucks, the game is already pretty linear, we'll just take it to 100!, by giving you the path. But you are ok with this as an option.
Then you talk about DDO's awesome character building (I agree) but you are then told what cookie cutter you have to play with.
The deal I'm getting at is you were running DDO with PUG's based on "you have to do this or else", well those same PUG's are going to dictate to us that we will need to run with the golden trail on, because someone in the PUG will and you'll have to follow suit to keep up. Like in DDO, you are forced to do it. No golden trail, no issue, no one ever even asked for this anyway.
Cryptic is possibly turning into the Lisa Lapanelli of MMO makers, they are screwing themselves to the bottom. How much dumber do things have to be? It's like they are trying to find out how little they could possibly do and still make bank. Instead of raising their game, they lower it. There are seveal things in this game which are lighter then already questionable efforts.
That all said... it does have a nice ARPG combat model to it. I'll at least play it to some point.
Yeah I found that this game was more like playing an Arcade Fighting game out of the 80's then a D&D game, let alone a RPG. There is nothing really RPG'ish about this game other then you lvl up.
Welcome to 2013.
Issue is on your end.
It's a legitimate complaint and I fail to see how the date somehow justifies your point of view. Deal with it, some people prefer different play mechanics and they may not coincide with your own and it has absolutely nothing to do with what year it is, truly, I shit you not.
Boring? Linear? Simplistic? Yup i can see all those things. For the past 10 years games have moved towards just being a cash cow. People don't make games for enjoyment sake or to make the best game possible. Nope, its just all about making a dollar and everyone be damned kind of attitude.
Okay, for this, first I'm going to start with the blue...
You're obviously trolling with that comment, as the game immediately tells you after you begin playing that it can be turned of with a single press of the 'z' button. It literally has a 'Z' on screen next to this text about the size of an average mans thumbnail. So I do not understand your complaint. If you don't like a fly-by-wire glowing trail of breadcrumbs, turn it off... I remember when I played PnP WoD VtM (ACRONYMS! >,< HAXOR) there was a background called Benefactor, which meant the GM could tell you hints whenever he felt you needed one in game... I like to think of a game with glowing breadcrumbs a benefactor, giving you a hint when you really need it, but something you can turn off (or silence with a coke & bourban) when you don't. And let's not forget, that one of WoW's most downloaded addons from Curse.com was actually this very thing, a quest organiser, designed to show you were to go to finish your quests in order, so popular, that Blizz built one of their own into their game...
GW3EN? I was never able to get into DDO when it launched. I got into it just after they announced the expansion Denizens of the Underdark and played it with my then flatmate. Our thoughts were, 'Wow! We have so much choice for our classes!' which soon turned into, 'Hey, I got told if I wanted my rogue to do more damage, I should've taken this feat, gotta reroll', which became 'Hey, I paid for that pack that allows you to start your adventures at level 10 instead of level 1 because I'm sick of rerolling noobs whenever I do something wrong', which led us to, 'Man, f*** this, we're in a level 20 raid/dungeon, and everyone is almost identical and zerging these bloody giant mesphits, I'm out.'
Point is, given all the unlimited options you were in DDO, people still theorycrafted the sh!t out of it. Given the paths of least effort for maximum reward, the community chose the same damn path, each and every time.
Neverwinter will probably be like that... But atleast it'll be like that, differently. I think...
Your two replies here are interesting to me.
About the "golden trail" imo it sucks, the game is already pretty linear, we'll just take it to 100!, by giving you the path. But you are ok with this as an option.
Then you talk about DDO's awesome character building (I agree) but you are then told what cookie cutter you have to play with.
The deal I'm getting at is you were running DDO with PUG's based on "you have to do this or else", well those same PUG's are going to dictate to us that we will need to run with the golden trail on, because someone in the PUG will and you'll have to follow suit to keep up. Like in DDO, you are forced to do it. No golden trail, no issue, no one ever even asked for this anyway.
Cryptic is possibly turning into the Lisa Lapanelli of MMO makers, they are screwing themselves to the bottom. How much dumber do things have to be? It's like they are trying to find out how little they could possibly do and still make bank. Instead of raising their game, they lower it. There are seveal things in this game which are lighter then already questionable efforts.
That all said... it does have a nice ARPG combat model to it. I'll at least play it to some point.
RED: The reason I am okay with this option is because it is just that, optional. The game isn't forcing you to hold it's hand, as we've already read or experienced, the game is linear enough without it. But the game is giving you the option of taking a hint when your stuck, and up front tells you how to turn it off. What's not to appreciate about that? I guess because I look at the mechanism as a bit larger then myself I can see it's value, because if my younger nephews (ages ranging from 10-5) were to play this game, I would want to be able to tell them, 'if your stuck, hit this button and the game will help you find what you need'.
YELLOW: No, we weren't actually running with PUGs, that was a guild run. My friend and I joined a guild and it was literally a case of there being five or six different builds throughout the entirety of the guild. My personal favourite character out of 3ed D&D was the high crit Kukri Rogue, I would make the character, get about level 10, someone from the guild told me that a certain feat actually plays out better in D&D online then PnP, and said I should reroll before it got too late. So I did, then as I was levelling, I was informed that Kukris don't drop as often as Falchions in high end loot, and that for better damage I should've been speccing that, told to reroll, so I did. Then when my friend and I had levelled to a point we could run a high end instance with our guild, we realised that by doing so, we had made ourselves amazingly redundant, as everyone simply zerged the content, and there was no need for actual D&D roleplay or even fun.
BLUE: Now your saying that those same PUGs will dictate to us our gameplay, following the path of least resistance because that's what they're doing; I guess you missed the part where my friend and I quit playing DDO due to the fact that this was so rampant? We didn't want to become a part of that establishment, so we didn't. There is freewill in gaming, you choose what you want to do, how you want to play. In regards to this issue, it's simply a matter of choosing to hit the button 'z' or not.
Edit for Green: I -really- wanted to emphasis the fact that this mechanic is OPTIONAL!
Yeah I found that this game was more like playing an Arcade Fighting game out of the 80's then a D&D game, let alone a RPG. There is nothing really RPG'ish about this game other then you lvl up.
Welcome to 2013.
Issue is on your end.
new trend is sell action,shooter games as rpg's , coz most action/shooter players think,rpg = trade in game(i talking about some my rl friends)
I agree 100% and some of the younger folks are touting this like some grand new step in the right direction lol
Whilst I tihnk Neverwinter is actually a good game for what it is,I do agree with the two fo you on the direction of actual RPGs.Those of us who like the more tactical,thoughtful paced combat of the past have to look to Kickstarter and the indie scene because the AAA market is set on making action RPGs only with the emphasis on action and les son RPG.
It's what the generations brought up on consoles want and they are the majority now.
Haven't any of you out there noticed that starting with EQ2 and WoW, the genre has slowly devolved into a mindless dumbed down shell of what it started out as? The money is clearly with the casual gamer, WoW has proven that and EQ2 was an attempt to please EQs more casual crowd. Companies are simply trying to make the games easier and easier because they seem to think that those that don't want to feel like they are working for success will play their basterdized shells of MMOs that have launched for the last 8 years or so.
As long as we keep giving companies our money that listen to accountants and looking at statistical analysis rather than listening to their development types that actually PLAY MMOs, we will keep getting dumber and dumber games. You want to get back to something closer to the glory days before WoW, then stop padding the profit margins of these companies and make them wake the f*ck up. I mean paying $200 before you even know if you will like a game is insane. But WAIT! IT gets better! You can beta test it in all 3 beta weekends! You get to play a Drow and have a spider mount and a panther companion and you can live out your Drizzt fantasies! What a joke. Nevermind that what you are actually doing is providing them with revenue for doing something that used to be free and companies used to actually value beta testers inputs and would try to FIX the bugs that we reported. That was a ways back by the way.
All CEOs know is $$$$$. They don't care one damn bit about what the customers really want. The data says we are zombies and will play almost anything they feed us. So stop complaining because as long as you are supporting these idiots with money, you are getting exactly what you are paying for... CRAP.
Yeah I found that this game was more like playing an Arcade Fighting game out of the 80's then a D&D game, let alone a RPG. There is nothing really RPG'ish about this game other then you lvl up.
Welcome to 2013.
Issue is on your end.
new trend is sell action,shooter games as rpg's , coz most action/shooter players think,rpg = trade in game(i talking about some my rl friends)
I agree 100% and some of the younger folks are touting this like some grand new step in the right direction lol
Whilst I tihnk Neverwinter is actually a good game for what it is,I do agree with the two fo you on the direction of actual RPGs.Those of us who like the more tactical,thoughtful paced combat of the past have to look to Kickstarter and the indie scene because the AAA market is set on making action RPGs only with the emphasis on action and les son RPG.
It's what the generations brought up on consoles want and they are the majority now.
I can say from my experince so far, for the most part enemy AI early on is very linear and simple but as the game progresses there are variations of enemies in the form of small, medium and big. The big ones are usually the standout very intelligent AI enemies. For example there are these large sized knights with shields, they play their role very well. Playing as a guardian I have the most fun and tactical fights with these large soldiers with shields. During the fight they will Shield bash and stun you then stomp you to death if you are not paying attention, this combined with speed they are very tricky to catch with their shields down. They are built to knock down players and expose player weaknesses. Even a fully geared/highly geared player as myself it would still take a long time and a lot of thinking to make sure I don't die. Even further in the game they are combined with summoners which makes it even more exciting and tactical.
Now where it gets even more interesting is the layering of enemies later in the game where there are certain objectives. For example there is a mission where you need to stop a summoning of sorts. But trying to stop it is very hard since the layered enemies are set up to push you back (keep you as far as possible from the summoner) and make it very hard to reach the summoner at the back side and because of the mechanics of the game you can't take shortcuts like you would in a tab target game and shoot through the font line mobs. In addtion the summoner will summon more mobs through out the fight. The most efficient method to make it through the fight is to try to run past the frontline enemies which is possible and zerg the summoner but the summoner will surprise you with some very dangerous and up close abilites which will stun you and knock you back into the frontline enemies. In the end it took a balance of keeping a certain distance from the smaller enemies and some ingenious knock back moves and using environmental obstacles to have a chance to hit the summoner. This fight alone was very satisfying and encompass what designers call Map Gameplay and understand Core Gameplay.
Of course this has been my experience and as a professional in the industry I don't get excited very often but when I see another combat designer who understands the basics of an exciting combat encounter and make it fun in an MMO, I have to give him some appluase for understanding that it is much better to have quality over quantity.
RED: The reason I am okay with this option is because it is just that, optional. The game isn't forcing you to hold it's hand, as we've already read or experienced, the game is linear enough without it. But the game is giving you the option of taking a hint when your stuck, and up front tells you how to turn it off. What's not to appreciate about that? I guess because I look at the mechanism as a bit larger then myself I can see it's value, because if my younger nephews (ages ranging from 10-5) were to play this game, I would want to be able to tell them, 'if your stuck, hit this button and the game will help you find what you need'.
YELLOW: No, we weren't actually running with PUGs, that was a guild run. My friend and I joined a guild and it was literally a case of there being five or six different builds throughout the entirety of the guild. My personal favourite character out of 3ed D&D was the high crit Kukri Rogue, I would make the character, get about level 10, someone from the guild told me that a certain feat actually plays out better in D&D online then PnP, and said I should reroll before it got too late. So I did, then as I was levelling, I was informed that Kukris don't drop as often as Falchions in high end loot, and that for better damage I should've been speccing that, told to reroll, so I did. Then when my friend and I had levelled to a point we could run a high end instance with our guild, we realised that by doing so, we had made ourselves amazingly redundant, as everyone simply zerged the content, and there was no need for actual D&D roleplay or even fun.
BLUE: Now your saying that those same PUGs will dictate to us our gameplay, following the path of least resistance because that's what they're doing; I guess you missed the part where my friend and I quit playing DDO due to the fact that this was so rampant? We didn't want to become a part of that establishment, so we didn't. There is freewill in gaming, you choose what you want to do, how you want to play. In regards to this issue, it's simply a matter of choosing to hit the button 'z' or not.
Edit for Green: I -really- wanted to emphasis the fact that this mechanic is OPTIONAL!
The optional becomes non-optional when one person in the party turns it on and takes off running in a bee-line.
PUG - Guild whatever, you were being dictated what to do with your char. Optional builds became non-optional.
On part three, right. Trails of gold, builds... all having to do something you may not want because of anothers action. Just tTake the trails away and not worry about that one, boom 50% better. The game just didn't need another level of dumbing down any way.
But it's my opinion, I respect yours, I just saw a parrallel between those two and how peoples action then affect our own. Something optional, becomes something forced.
Of course this has been my experience and as a professional in the industry I don't get excited very often but when I see another combat designer who understands the basics of an exciting combat encounter and make it fun in an MMO, I have to give him some appluase for understanding that it is much better to have quality over quantity.
You sir read my mind. Although I hate the lack of creative dungeon design (what design?) and limited character customization. I was very suprised at how good the combat is. Normally I dont care about graphics/combat if the gameplay is good, like DDO with their exceptional well designed dungeons. But I played NW longer than I normally would because all the fun I had in combat. Great job at hoever is responsible for the combat system.
Originally posted by hfztt I think the thing that really broke the game for me was the shiny fly by wire line on the ground you follow when ever you get a quest.I shit you not. There is an actual line of shiny glimmer that you follow through all your quests showing you the shortest way to the next step of teh quest. This kinda got to be laugh out funny when I got into a room where the teh path up to a platform was not imidiately clear. Good for me I had a shining line showing me exactly which way I should wald through this mini puzzle.And dont get me started on the "twitch" battle in this. It just dont work. The ammount of times that I have been hit by monsters doing close combat damage after having run away from them several seconds ago is just silly.They have dumbed the gamepley in this so much down that I cant take it seriously.But then again DDO was a mess to on release. GIve it a few years and they might actually put some D&D feel into this one as well.
So why not hit "Z" and turn the shiny trail off.....Duh
The non-linear quest has been dropped in the box for beta weekend 3.
Although it is single quest, you will feel like you played a campaign because it is long (though if you skip all side-quests, it is quite short but where is the fun in that).
The non-linear quest has been dropped in the box for beta weekend 3. Although it is single quest, you will feel like you played a campaign because it is long (though if you skip all side-quests, it is quite short but where is the fun in that). Day: Beta Weekend 3Quest Name: The Wild Moon(mote) ChaseCampaign name: Maiden in the MoonAuthor: @gillrmn This will at least show the users how foundry quests can be made to be very non-linear and different.
gillrmn knows the foundry better than anyone else I have seen post on the official forums..haven't done his foundry stuff yet but he as been very helpful teaching others about foundry and hope he does some tutorials for launch:)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game heavily instanced? Yes. Do I normally like games which feature these things? Hell No!
But you see, for some reason I absolutely love the game because it doesn't try to do to many things. At its heart, Neverwinter (NWO) is a MMO with Story and Dungeon Crawling. I am not sure if the complete game will feature voice overs, I suspect it will but even if not the story's the game tells are nicely done. The biggest thing I like about the game though is it has more content then any game I have ever played. It is also the only MMO that features full instanced solo encounters and not those instanced quests seen in other MMO's. I seen a post somewhere on these forums where another poster said by level 20 he had done more dungeons then any other MMO. This is not far from the turth. 99% of the dungeons you do in NWO are actual dungeons designed with depth and story in mind and are full featured.
If it makes you feel better about yourself, I usually dread having to do the open world zones, they don't hold a candle to the story and fun you have running the dungeons & instances.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I think the thing that really broke the game for me was the shiny fly by wire line on the ground you follow when ever you get a quest.
I shit you not. There is an actual line of shiny glimmer that you follow through all your quests showing you the shortest way to the next step of teh quest. This kinda got to be laugh out funny when I got into a room where the teh path up to a platform was not imidiately clear. Good for me I had a shining line showing me exactly which way I should wald through this mini puzzle.
And dont get me started on the "twitch" battle in this. It just dont work. The ammount of times that I have been hit by monsters doing close combat damage after having run away from them several seconds ago is just silly.
They have dumbed the gamepley in this so much down that I cant take it seriously.
But then again DDO was a mess to on release. GIve it a few years and they might actually put some D&D feel into this one as well.
Umm, you did actually read (or rather listen) to the small tutorial as you start the game? You know the one 90% of people just blow through.
Simply press Z, that is all you have to do, to toggle the quest helper on or off.
I do agree however the "action" combat is far less true action combat ala Skyrim or even Tera, as it is still a fully turn based game where instead of tab targetting and pressing a number to auto attack, you target by putting your crosshair over the guy and press the mouse button. However as with most MMO's, if your not "targeting" aka mousing over someone, you can't use most of your skills. That combined with the movement lock when using skills removes any last bit of twitch, as you are often unable to react because you are mid swing and locked in place or EVERY SINGLE SKILL.
But the selling point to me on the game is the Foundry. While the official content is pretty linear and bleh, I am leaving it up to the players with real imagination to create content that is awesome. And of course I myself love to make content for it.
I cannot fathom why people here seem to like this game so much.
For a D&D game this is one of the most Boring, Linear, and unindepth/simplistic out of all the D&D games I have ever played in my life. Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights had more depth, class customization, and uniqueness, and these were single player games that came out over 10 years ago.
Even Dungeons and Dragons Online has more depth than this sorry excuse for a D&D game. Everyone chooses the same class skills, aquires the same traits, and can specialize in small things like a little bit of armor resistance or damage, but not enough to really make a huge inpact on anything. About the only good thing about this game is the Graphics, and Gameplay. This game is one of the most boring games I've ever played. I had more enjoyment in the latest Skyrim DLC and that wasn't even that great.
PS: I don't care if this is beta, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize what kind of game this is.
Cheers,
-Trash
i highlighted the source of your problem.
you don't compare single player to mmo.
those games are 2 of the best RPGs that have come out so far. and most likely they will stay on top for some time (unless the new torment can kick in).
uh, but actually i never played NWN alone so far (and i played it alot in it's days) :P
it's a coop game that was pretty linear too, at least if you wanted to complete the storry.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game heavily instanced? Yes. Do I normally like games which feature these things? Hell No! ...
Hey azzamasin!
The game is linear because it is a storyteller. Storytelling has to be tight and linear. Hence the official content does not steps to non-linear way of making quests. They just want to tell you a story. Story is good - needs a lot of polish - but is good.
As for non-linearity, play this beta weekend 3 - "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase". Initially it was very non-linear but players complained that it was "too confusing" for them. So I added a few backbones. But it still is very very non-linear.
So expect some very non-linear stuff from foundry. By very I mean VERY!!!
But I just have a head start from others. Many will catch up soon. What I am trying to do with my quest is to display some less known capabilities of foundry. I made non-linear quest because I got into debate with someon who said non-linear quest was not possible with foundry. So I made a big quest to show it is.
If I demonstrate that foundry as a tool can be used to make sandbox campaigns - my purpose of making the campaign will be solved.
Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game heavily instanced? Yes. Do I normally like games which feature these things? Hell No!
But you see, for some reason I absolutely love the game because it doesn't try to do to many things. At its heart, Neverwinter (NWO) is a MMO with Story and Dungeon Crawling. I am not sure if the complete game will feature voice overs, I suspect it will but even if not the story's the game tells are nicely done. The biggest thing I like about the game though is it has more content then any game I have ever played. It is also the only MMO that features full instanced solo encounters and not those instanced quests seen in other MMO's. I seen a post somewhere on these forums where another poster said by level 20 he had done more dungeons then any other MMO. This is not far from the turth. 99% of the dungeons you do in NWO are actual dungeons designed with depth and story in mind and are full featured.
If it makes you feel better about yourself, I usually dread having to do the open world zones, they don't hold a candle to the story and fun you have running the dungeons & instances.
For me I can relate, I think it has to do with simply taking a Diablo type game and making it over the shoulder (more 3d/immersive), it's somewhat surprising how little devs have done this. To me D3 if it was about raising the bar and staying modern, it should have done, with a retro mode for S & G's. There are a few mmo-lites that are doing this, the combat in each is very fun.
The game is very subpar as it is now. They need to fix a lot of things to make the game decent but I don't see that happening. Developers love to over-promise and under-deliver, I don't see that changing now. Fixing the horendous animations and clunky combat would go very far in fixing things but I won't hold my breath.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Well if you follow only the main questline and don't do anything else no kidding its linear, any and every game out there is going to be completely linear if you only follow one questline and don't do anything on the side.... There was only a handful of Foundry missions in this last weekend but I did a few of em and they were a lot of fun and very well done. Once things get rolling there will be a nearly endless flow of new content being added to The Foundry basically giving you an endless supply of "sidequests" to do that totally breaks the linear gameplay of following only the main questline. Best part is Foundry missions scale to your level so you can do any/all of em at any level you so choose.
As for the lack of character customization I do agree atm it does seem extremely limited. I can only hope that when we finally actually get to see the other Paragons for each class there will actually be significant differences between each one. As of yet we've only seen one Paragon for each class so its kinda impossible to say what kind of options we'll really have in the long run heh.
Personally I did not expect this game to play anything like DnD (Baldurs Gate 2 FTW) and even had really low expectations in general considering Cryptics track record but after finally getting ingame to give it a shot I can honestly say I had a lot of fun playing the game and will do so for a long time after launch. Given it does need some work in certain areas of course but it's not nearly as bad as people are saying if you actually take it for what it is, an action based rpg set in the dnd universe, and not a fullscale DnD game like the BG or NWN series. The lore and setting are all DnD but the gameplay mechanics are far from it.
I like the mainstory being linear. Usually thats required to tell a good story. Thats why I love the lore and combat of the game. The combat is really well done and suprised me. But because the dungeon design sucks **** its useless even with a good story. The dungeon is generic and too simple. Also the very limited character customization is breaking the game. Only saving grace is the foundry. We will see.
Ok. Just dropped in to say that it looks like "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" will definately make it in this beta weekend 3.
If golden trail fails in the begining, open your quest journal and read the description of the quest. However, I would prefer that you turn off the golden trail in the begining and play it without the golden path. If you do, I bet you will enjoy it more.
Actually finding the house in the begining is also a puzzle and part of role play. Role play is that you are an adventurer who just tore off a flyer off the job-board. Then you read te flyer and look on the backside of lyer where there is a map. That map is described in the words in description.
Similarly, if you get stuck later in the game, you should talk to nearest NPC and they will help you.
After playing the quest, please let me know what you think about non-linearity in NW.
I think the thing that really broke the game for me was the shiny fly by wire line on the ground you follow when ever you get a quest.
I shit you not. There is an actual line of shiny glimmer that you follow through all your quests showing you the shortest way to the next step of teh quest. This kinda got to be laugh out funny when I got into a room where the teh path up to a platform was not imidiately clear. Good for me I had a shining line showing me exactly which way I should wald through this mini puzzle.
And dont get me started on the "twitch" battle in this. It just dont work. The ammount of times that I have been hit by monsters doing close combat damage after having run away from them several seconds ago is just silly.
They have dumbed the gamepley in this so much down that I cant take it seriously.
But then again DDO was a mess to on release. GIve it a few years and they might actually put some D&D feel into this one as well.
Umm, you did actually read (or rather listen) to the small tutorial as you start the game? You know the one 90% of people just blow through.
Simply press Z, that is all you have to do, to toggle the quest helper on or off.
I do agree however the "action" combat is far less true action combat ala Skyrim or even Tera, as it is still a fully turn based game where instead of tab targetting and pressing a number to auto attack, you target by putting your crosshair over the guy and press the mouse button. However as with most MMO's, if your not "targeting" aka mousing over someone, you can't use most of your skills. That combined with the movement lock when using skills removes any last bit of twitch, as you are often unable to react because you are mid swing and locked in place or EVERY SINGLE SKILL.
But the selling point to me on the game is the Foundry. While the official content is pretty linear and bleh, I am leaving it up to the players with real imagination to create content that is awesome. And of course I myself love to make content for it.
lol. Why should such a basic aspect of the world be a question of turning on and off help of this kind ?
You either compete or you do not. You have to be a special kind of competitor to make things harder for yourself for no in game benefit = what turning off the ridiculous quest bread crumb trail amounts to.
lol. Why should such a basic aspect of the world be a question of turning on and off help of this kind ?
You either compete or you do not. You have to be a special kind of competitor to make things harder for yourself for no in game benefit = what turning off the ridiculous quest bread crumb trail amounts to.
I'm ok with your line of thinking. Question, are you ever a person that elsewhere talks about how games have been dumbed down? Consoles have degraded PC difficulty? Thanks.
Comments
Your two replies here are interesting to me.
About the "golden trail" imo it sucks, the game is already pretty linear, we'll just take it to 100!, by giving you the path. But you are ok with this as an option.
Then you talk about DDO's awesome character building (I agree) but you are then told what cookie cutter you have to play with.
The deal I'm getting at is you were running DDO with PUG's based on "you have to do this or else", well those same PUG's are going to dictate to us that we will need to run with the golden trail on, because someone in the PUG will and you'll have to follow suit to keep up. Like in DDO, you are forced to do it. No golden trail, no issue, no one ever even asked for this anyway.
Cryptic is possibly turning into the Lisa Lapanelli of MMO makers, they are screwing themselves to the bottom. How much dumber do things have to be? It's like they are trying to find out how little they could possibly do and still make bank. Instead of raising their game, they lower it. There are seveal things in this game which are lighter then already questionable efforts.
That all said... it does have a nice ARPG combat model to it. I'll at least play it to some point.
It's a legitimate complaint and I fail to see how the date somehow justifies your point of view. Deal with it, some people prefer different play mechanics and they may not coincide with your own and it has absolutely nothing to do with what year it is, truly, I shit you not.
RED: The reason I am okay with this option is because it is just that, optional. The game isn't forcing you to hold it's hand, as we've already read or experienced, the game is linear enough without it. But the game is giving you the option of taking a hint when your stuck, and up front tells you how to turn it off. What's not to appreciate about that? I guess because I look at the mechanism as a bit larger then myself I can see it's value, because if my younger nephews (ages ranging from 10-5) were to play this game, I would want to be able to tell them, 'if your stuck, hit this button and the game will help you find what you need'.
YELLOW: No, we weren't actually running with PUGs, that was a guild run. My friend and I joined a guild and it was literally a case of there being five or six different builds throughout the entirety of the guild. My personal favourite character out of 3ed D&D was the high crit Kukri Rogue, I would make the character, get about level 10, someone from the guild told me that a certain feat actually plays out better in D&D online then PnP, and said I should reroll before it got too late. So I did, then as I was levelling, I was informed that Kukris don't drop as often as Falchions in high end loot, and that for better damage I should've been speccing that, told to reroll, so I did. Then when my friend and I had levelled to a point we could run a high end instance with our guild, we realised that by doing so, we had made ourselves amazingly redundant, as everyone simply zerged the content, and there was no need for actual D&D roleplay or even fun.
BLUE: Now your saying that those same PUGs will dictate to us our gameplay, following the path of least resistance because that's what they're doing; I guess you missed the part where my friend and I quit playing DDO due to the fact that this was so rampant? We didn't want to become a part of that establishment, so we didn't. There is freewill in gaming, you choose what you want to do, how you want to play. In regards to this issue, it's simply a matter of choosing to hit the button 'z' or not.
Edit for Green: I -really- wanted to emphasis the fact that this mechanic is OPTIONAL!
Whilst I tihnk Neverwinter is actually a good game for what it is,I do agree with the two fo you on the direction of actual RPGs.Those of us who like the more tactical,thoughtful paced combat of the past have to look to Kickstarter and the indie scene because the AAA market is set on making action RPGs only with the emphasis on action and les son RPG.
It's what the generations brought up on consoles want and they are the majority now.
Haven't any of you out there noticed that starting with EQ2 and WoW, the genre has slowly devolved into a mindless dumbed down shell of what it started out as? The money is clearly with the casual gamer, WoW has proven that and EQ2 was an attempt to please EQs more casual crowd. Companies are simply trying to make the games easier and easier because they seem to think that those that don't want to feel like they are working for success will play their basterdized shells of MMOs that have launched for the last 8 years or so.
As long as we keep giving companies our money that listen to accountants and looking at statistical analysis rather than listening to their development types that actually PLAY MMOs, we will keep getting dumber and dumber games. You want to get back to something closer to the glory days before WoW, then stop padding the profit margins of these companies and make them wake the f*ck up. I mean paying $200 before you even know if you will like a game is insane. But WAIT! IT gets better! You can beta test it in all 3 beta weekends! You get to play a Drow and have a spider mount and a panther companion and you can live out your Drizzt fantasies! What a joke. Nevermind that what you are actually doing is providing them with revenue for doing something that used to be free and companies used to actually value beta testers inputs and would try to FIX the bugs that we reported. That was a ways back by the way.
All CEOs know is $$$$$. They don't care one damn bit about what the customers really want. The data says we are zombies and will play almost anything they feed us. So stop complaining because as long as you are supporting these idiots with money, you are getting exactly what you are paying for... CRAP.
/soapbox
I can say from my experince so far, for the most part enemy AI early on is very linear and simple but as the game progresses there are variations of enemies in the form of small, medium and big. The big ones are usually the standout very intelligent AI enemies. For example there are these large sized knights with shields, they play their role very well. Playing as a guardian I have the most fun and tactical fights with these large soldiers with shields. During the fight they will Shield bash and stun you then stomp you to death if you are not paying attention, this combined with speed they are very tricky to catch with their shields down. They are built to knock down players and expose player weaknesses. Even a fully geared/highly geared player as myself it would still take a long time and a lot of thinking to make sure I don't die. Even further in the game they are combined with summoners which makes it even more exciting and tactical.
Now where it gets even more interesting is the layering of enemies later in the game where there are certain objectives. For example there is a mission where you need to stop a summoning of sorts. But trying to stop it is very hard since the layered enemies are set up to push you back (keep you as far as possible from the summoner) and make it very hard to reach the summoner at the back side and because of the mechanics of the game you can't take shortcuts like you would in a tab target game and shoot through the font line mobs. In addtion the summoner will summon more mobs through out the fight. The most efficient method to make it through the fight is to try to run past the frontline enemies which is possible and zerg the summoner but the summoner will surprise you with some very dangerous and up close abilites which will stun you and knock you back into the frontline enemies. In the end it took a balance of keeping a certain distance from the smaller enemies and some ingenious knock back moves and using environmental obstacles to have a chance to hit the summoner. This fight alone was very satisfying and encompass what designers call Map Gameplay and understand Core Gameplay.
Of course this has been my experience and as a professional in the industry I don't get excited very often but when I see another combat designer who understands the basics of an exciting combat encounter and make it fun in an MMO, I have to give him some appluase for understanding that it is much better to have quality over quantity.
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The optional becomes non-optional when one person in the party turns it on and takes off running in a bee-line.
PUG - Guild whatever, you were being dictated what to do with your char. Optional builds became non-optional.
On part three, right. Trails of gold, builds... all having to do something you may not want because of anothers action. Just tTake the trails away and not worry about that one, boom 50% better. The game just didn't need another level of dumbing down any way.
But it's my opinion, I respect yours, I just saw a parrallel between those two and how peoples action then affect our own. Something optional, becomes something forced.
You sir read my mind. Although I hate the lack of creative dungeon design (what design?) and limited character customization. I was very suprised at how good the combat is. Normally I dont care about graphics/combat if the gameplay is good, like DDO with their exceptional well designed dungeons. But I played NW longer than I normally would because all the fun I had in combat. Great job at hoever is responsible for the combat system.
The non-linear quest has been dropped in the box for beta weekend 3.
Although it is single quest, you will feel like you played a campaign because it is long (though if you skip all side-quests, it is quite short but where is the fun in that).
Day: Beta Weekend 3
Quest Name: The Wild Moon(mote) Chase
Campaign name: Maiden in the Moon
Author: @gillrmn
This will at least show the users how foundry quests can be made to be very non-linear and different.
Foundry Feedback | Foundry Tutorials
gillrmn knows the foundry better than anyone else I have seen post on the official forums..haven't done his foundry stuff yet but he as been very helpful teaching others about foundry and hope he does some tutorials for launch:)I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game heavily instanced? Yes. Do I normally like games which feature these things? Hell No!
But you see, for some reason I absolutely love the game because it doesn't try to do to many things. At its heart, Neverwinter (NWO) is a MMO with Story and Dungeon Crawling. I am not sure if the complete game will feature voice overs, I suspect it will but even if not the story's the game tells are nicely done. The biggest thing I like about the game though is it has more content then any game I have ever played. It is also the only MMO that features full instanced solo encounters and not those instanced quests seen in other MMO's. I seen a post somewhere on these forums where another poster said by level 20 he had done more dungeons then any other MMO. This is not far from the turth. 99% of the dungeons you do in NWO are actual dungeons designed with depth and story in mind and are full featured.
If it makes you feel better about yourself, I usually dread having to do the open world zones, they don't hold a candle to the story and fun you have running the dungeons & instances.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Umm, you did actually read (or rather listen) to the small tutorial as you start the game? You know the one 90% of people just blow through.
Simply press Z, that is all you have to do, to toggle the quest helper on or off.
I do agree however the "action" combat is far less true action combat ala Skyrim or even Tera, as it is still a fully turn based game where instead of tab targetting and pressing a number to auto attack, you target by putting your crosshair over the guy and press the mouse button. However as with most MMO's, if your not "targeting" aka mousing over someone, you can't use most of your skills. That combined with the movement lock when using skills removes any last bit of twitch, as you are often unable to react because you are mid swing and locked in place or EVERY SINGLE SKILL.
But the selling point to me on the game is the Foundry. While the official content is pretty linear and bleh, I am leaving it up to the players with real imagination to create content that is awesome. And of course I myself love to make content for it.
i highlighted the source of your problem.
you don't compare single player to mmo.
those games are 2 of the best RPGs that have come out so far. and most likely they will stay on top for some time (unless the new torment can kick in).
uh, but actually i never played NWN alone so far (and i played it alot in it's days) :P
it's a coop game that was pretty linear too, at least if you wanted to complete the storry.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Hey azzamasin!
The game is linear because it is a storyteller. Storytelling has to be tight and linear. Hence the official content does not steps to non-linear way of making quests. They just want to tell you a story. Story is good - needs a lot of polish - but is good.
As for non-linearity, play this beta weekend 3 - "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase". Initially it was very non-linear but players complained that it was "too confusing" for them. So I added a few backbones. But it still is very very non-linear.
So expect some very non-linear stuff from foundry. By very I mean VERY!!!
@Aerowyn: Thanks *blushes*
But I just have a head start from others. Many will catch up soon. What I am trying to do with my quest is to display some less known capabilities of foundry. I made non-linear quest because I got into debate with someon who said non-linear quest was not possible with foundry. So I made a big quest to show it is.
If I demonstrate that foundry as a tool can be used to make sandbox campaigns - my purpose of making the campaign will be solved.
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Perhaps Shallow is the word you were looking for?
Anyway, shallow the game may be, but I still had fun playing it over the weekend.
Will have another look at it once it has released.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
For me I can relate, I think it has to do with simply taking a Diablo type game and making it over the shoulder (more 3d/immersive), it's somewhat surprising how little devs have done this. To me D3 if it was about raising the bar and staying modern, it should have done, with a retro mode for S & G's. There are a few mmo-lites that are doing this, the combat in each is very fun.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Well if you follow only the main questline and don't do anything else no kidding its linear, any and every game out there is going to be completely linear if you only follow one questline and don't do anything on the side.... There was only a handful of Foundry missions in this last weekend but I did a few of em and they were a lot of fun and very well done. Once things get rolling there will be a nearly endless flow of new content being added to The Foundry basically giving you an endless supply of "sidequests" to do that totally breaks the linear gameplay of following only the main questline. Best part is Foundry missions scale to your level so you can do any/all of em at any level you so choose.
As for the lack of character customization I do agree atm it does seem extremely limited. I can only hope that when we finally actually get to see the other Paragons for each class there will actually be significant differences between each one. As of yet we've only seen one Paragon for each class so its kinda impossible to say what kind of options we'll really have in the long run heh.
Personally I did not expect this game to play anything like DnD (Baldurs Gate 2 FTW) and even had really low expectations in general considering Cryptics track record but after finally getting ingame to give it a shot I can honestly say I had a lot of fun playing the game and will do so for a long time after launch. Given it does need some work in certain areas of course but it's not nearly as bad as people are saying if you actually take it for what it is, an action based rpg set in the dnd universe, and not a fullscale DnD game like the BG or NWN series. The lore and setting are all DnD but the gameplay mechanics are far from it.
Ok. Just dropped in to say that it looks like "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" will definately make it in this beta weekend 3.
If golden trail fails in the begining, open your quest journal and read the description of the quest. However, I would prefer that you turn off the golden trail in the begining and play it without the golden path. If you do, I bet you will enjoy it more.
Actually finding the house in the begining is also a puzzle and part of role play. Role play is that you are an adventurer who just tore off a flyer off the job-board. Then you read te flyer and look on the backside of lyer where there is a map. That map is described in the words in description.
Similarly, if you get stuck later in the game, you should talk to nearest NPC and they will help you.
After playing the quest, please let me know what you think about non-linearity in NW.
Foundry Feedback | Foundry Tutorials
lol. Why should such a basic aspect of the world be a question of turning on and off help of this kind ?
You either compete or you do not. You have to be a special kind of competitor to make things harder for yourself for no in game benefit = what turning off the ridiculous quest bread crumb trail amounts to.
I'm ok with your line of thinking. Question, are you ever a person that elsewhere talks about how games have been dumbed down? Consoles have degraded PC difficulty? Thanks.