An interesting discussion that has so many variables it's entertaining itself.
Vanilla WOW is looked to as a base barometer in these discussion of subscription vs free to play as well it should be. There have been other sucessful subscription MMO models but we've yet to see any come even close to what Blizzard has managed. Perhaps it was a fluke as has been offered but I am not so sure. The timing was right no doubt, but what was it and what is it that keeps so many playing and yes paying.
Well Vanilla for me at least had a leveling curve that was just about perfect. Your progress was slow and steady and no I don't gobble content like a glutton. For me the pace was ............perfection. I was maybe 6 months in with rerolls and alts feeling my way through stopping to smell the fauna and enjoying each aspect as it opened to me. Level 40 for your first mount, meant something. You were fortunate if had accumulated enough gold to even afford your mount at 40, the tight economy was another key aspect that made things more worthwhile seeming.
In nearly every MMO since early WOW the leveling seems too fast paced, LOTRO wasn't to bad but mostly leveling to end game came too quickly in subsequent games. I suppose it also pertains to how you personally consume content, but I think the mainstream that was there in Vanilla, enjoyed the moderate pacing. Of course after the game had been out for several years that pace chaged substantially.
Back to the point on subscription, would seem to me ~$15 was a BARGAIN for all the entertainment value received. One thing I do find rather curious is that any MMO that comes down the line seems to think that yup ~$15 is the going price. Why? Would seem that some would say be profitable at ~$10.
To come to a close I would compare whats said above with GW2's model, buy to play. Now I think it is a very well done game in many aspects, most aspects but even with no further fees I lost interest after maxing a warrior. It just doesn't have the atmosphere, soul that I found so enthralling in early WOW.
I can only wonder what Blizz and Sony have up there sleeves with Titan and EQNext.
Reason: Its the mass numbers of MMos available combined with many Free 2 Play options to pick from.
Sure we have fond memories of Vanilla wow, but it was FAR from perfect. A lot of its issues would of quickly made most people run to the door. If released together, Vanilla WoW I'd make a gamble would of BOMBED as a sub model and likely would of be 'meh' as a F2P game'. The only thing it has going for it is its made by blizzard which can only garnish so much support.
There wasn't a bunch of crap MMos, in fact, there wasn't a bunch of MMos in general back then. It was a lot smaller selection and there were plenty of good ones to pick from. WoW just managed to draw the attention of more, utilizing Blizzards well respected name and the fact took it and believed it had potential is what allowed it to grow despite its many flaws. Much like Everquest 1 did before it (which was quite huge for its time people seem to forget) it was less of it being good that kept us, it was just the fact we saw it had potential.
MMO Saturation and wide availability just means we aren't as willing to invest in a game and support it. In that way, we are only helping towards the decline of MMos, giving no chance to a new one to really grow like WoW had the potential to do or many other games before it. Our ability to have so many options for MMos is a godsend and also a curse as it also means games that have so much potential don't get to have the support they so need. Vanilla wow does not deserve any real props for its 'success' as much as its time in which it came to be coming out at just the right time. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad game at all (in fact it actually felt as if it was getting better with TBC, to the point I was expecting it to be improved upon though unfortunately it seemed to keep taking 1 leap forward and 4 leaps back each expansion keeping the wrong elements and taking good ones away) it just was able to thrive due to the time it was released.
An interesting discussion that has so many variables it's entertaining itself.
Vanilla WOW is looked to as a base barometer in these discussion of subscription vs free to play as well it should be. There have been other sucessful subscription MMO models but we've yet to see any come even close to what Blizzard has managed. Perhaps it was a fluke as has been offered but I am not so sure. The timing was right no doubt, but what was it and what is it that keeps so many playing and yes paying.
Well Vanilla for me at least had a leveling curve that was just about perfect. Your progress was slow and steady and no I don't gobble content like a glutton. For me the pace was ............perfection. I was maybe 6 months in with rerolls and alts feeling my way through stopping to smell the fauna and enjoying each aspect as it opened to me. Level 40 for your first mount, meant something. You were fortunate if had accumulated enough gold to even afford your mount at 40, the tight economy was another key aspect that made things more worthwhile seeming.
In nearly every MMO since early WOW the leveling seems too fast paced, LOTRO wasn't to bad but mostly leveling to end game came too quickly in subsequent games. I suppose it also pertains to how you personally consume content, but I think the mainstream that was there in Vanilla, enjoyed the moderate pacing. Of course after the game had been out for several years that pace chaged substantially.
Back to the point on subscription, would seem to me ~$15 was a BARGAIN for all the entertainment value received. One thing I do find rather curious is that any MMO that comes down the line seems to think that yup ~$15 is the going price. Why? Would seem that some would say be profitable at ~$10.
To come to a close I would compare whats said above with GW2's model, buy to play. Now I think it is a very well done game in many aspects, most aspects but even with no further fees I lost interest after maxing a warrior. It just doesn't have the atmosphere, soul that I found so enthralling in early WOW.
I can only wonder what Blizz and Sony have up there sleeves with Titan and EQNext.
Titan will be a succes regardless of its merits due to the WoW crowd, EQNext will not be a succes unless they spam enough advertisements.
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
Please stop saying that all these games are copying WoW because they aren't. They are bastardizing WoW at best. 100% of these 'WoW Clones' are missing 5 or more key features of WoW. It is not a clone if you're missing so many key features. Unless you capture every feature and actually take the time to polish said features of WoW, you are not a WoW clone.
Your argument is weak if that. I don't have any respect for your banter. I feel guilty for responding to your thread at all.
P2P does work for some gamers. Just like any other service, if you feel the cost is warranted then you will pay. Besides the obvious reason of people declining P2P (which is P2P means paying more money), another good reason might be that the games that have released P2P did not bring enough to the table to warrant the cost. That is why they lost subs and why the transitioned to a different model, not because WoW made us hate P2P.
People want a unique experience with the bells and whistles, they are willing to pay for that.
What made me rage was the whole post but specifically here:
"Oh yes I know I did say for one reason and it was Blizz fault. Well if you think about it all these other reasons can be summed up to being Blizz fault also. They help contribute to the down fall of MMO gaming with WoW."
In these three sentences you provide no substance what so ever.
I just ask that you think before speaking, forever and always. Or GTFO.
Sorry you feel this way dude. But it is Blizz fault because they lead and all other games follow. I want a new leader a inovated one.
No game since WoW has actually copied WoW. Thats the problem.
Every game since wow has copied wow that's the problem.
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
Please stop saying that all these games are copying WoW because they aren't. They are bastardizing WoW at best. 100% of these 'WoW Clones' are missing 5 or more key features of WoW. It is not a clone if you're missing so many key features. Unless you capture every feature and actually take the time to polish said features of WoW, you are not a WoW clone.
I seriously can't stand that term and when people try to blame WoW for the current state of games and point to all the WoW clones i want nothing more than to shoot them to rid them from the gene pool.
Subs would work better if the games were actually worth $15/mo. I'll bet some of the better F2P or some struggling sub based games would do extremely well if they offered a lower montly subscription price and gave full access for that subscription. I'm not sure why the $15/mo is the price almost every sub game chooses.
As an example, would a lot of people sub to Warhammer if the sub was only $7 month? If this caused the populatiuon to increase more than ~50%, then their revenues would also increase from what they are making now at $15/mo.
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it. <-- JOKING
Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?
You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.
variation keeps things alive.
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
Very good 15 minute video regarding the Industry, WoW and payment models. Whenever I see a thread like this I just post it as it usually explains itself better than simple writing and text.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
The bottom line here is there is no black and white. No not all mmo's will go back to p2p and not not all games coming out with be f2p or b2p. If the game is good people will pay a fee each month. Does this mean that a game will come out of the gates with 10 million subs? hell no, not even close, blizzard never could do that either, it's has to grow. This can also be seen in blizzard still has over 9 million subs, people are still paying for this game, 9 million of them!!! F2P will always be around too, mostly for the dead games or games that never performed how the Dev's wanted them to or they just simply gave up on the P2P business model. B2P to me is a great model, GW2 prime example of this and to me it's just a very good value.
But here is the one that will come soon im sure. F2B/P2P, that's Free to buy, pay to play. If someone comes out with a great game that they give you for free and with a lower month fee of let's say 7.99 or 9.99 a month, people would pay this but only if the game is good enough. Download the game for free, take 30 days of free access to see how much you like the game then the monthly fee kicks in, pretty simple but you better have a good game. Players just do not trust any new MMO that comes out today, doesn't matter who the Dev is. Hell Blizzard is so afraid of announcing their new MMO that they came up with a card game just to buy some time..lol
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it.
Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?
You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.
variation keeps things alive.
You literally went from saying every MMO copied WoW, to saying its a good thing other MMOs didn't copy WoW...
I'll take that as agreement that we have not seen a "WoW clone" yet.
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it.
Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?
You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.
variation keeps things alive.
You literally went from saying every MMO copied WoW, to saying its a good thing other MMOs didn't copy WoW...
I'll take that as agreement that we have not seen a "WoW clone" yet.
They TRIED to copy WoW but failed miserable and therefore there's indeed no "WoW clone".
And it would be a good thing if MMOs didn't try to copy WoW...but in reality they do
But that wasn't my point.... Do you really want a game that copies all of these features perfectly or do you want some variation and some new exciting concepts getting introduced into MMOland?
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
Originally posted by Isturi Lets go back to vanilla WoW the game made you progress in a story line that was entertaining. It focus on enhancing our game play as we leveled up we were introduce to end game that keep us all coming back for years.
Vanilla WoW was a fluke nothing more nothing less and it just so happened that it was a sub game and sub games were the norm back in the day. Why?
On the first point, I'm not sure what you're ta lking about, but it certainly isn't vanilla WoW. A thousand walls of quest text that have little in common doesn't add up to a storyline, even if occasionally it strings together three or four related quests in a sequence.
For the second, Internet bandwidth used to be very expensive. If you're spending $3/month per player on bandwidth alone and your average player only pays $2/month because it's "free to play" and he doesn't pay anything, then you have a problem. If you're spending $0.10/month per player on bandwidth, then a "free to play" model looks more attractive. Bandwidth probably wasn't still that expensive by the time WoW launched, but earlier, it had been.
TY Quizz as far as the fisrt part Blizz was indeed following the formula all ready set in motion by Sony and a few other pioneer game companies back in the game. They just step it up a notch or two and they were out to us the best MMO experience that they belived in. I don't see that as much for today's DEVS who give's us garbage and pass it on as a MMO game.
For the second part You are 100% right ty for the input. It was all about timing for Blizz so it was a fluke.
An interesting discussion that has so many variables it's entertaining itself.
Vanilla WOW is looked to as a base barometer in these discussion of subscription vs free to play as well it should be. There have been other sucessful subscription MMO models but we've yet to see any come even close to what Blizzard has managed. Perhaps it was a fluke as has been offered but I am not so sure. The timing was right no doubt, but what was it and what is it that keeps so many playing and yes paying.
Well Vanilla for me at least had a leveling curve that was just about perfect. Your progress was slow and steady and no I don't gobble content like a glutton. For me the pace was ............perfection. I was maybe 6 months in with rerolls and alts feeling my way through stopping to smell the fauna and enjoying each aspect as it opened to me. Level 40 for your first mount, meant something. You were fortunate if had accumulated enough gold to even afford your mount at 40, the tight economy was another key aspect that made things more worthwhile seeming.
In nearly every MMO since early WOW the leveling seems too fast paced, LOTRO wasn't to bad but mostly leveling to end game came too quickly in subsequent games. I suppose it also pertains to how you personally consume content, but I think the mainstream that was there in Vanilla, enjoyed the moderate pacing. Of course after the game had been out for several years that pace chaged substantially.
Back to the point on subscription, would seem to me ~$15 was a BARGAIN for all the entertainment value received. One thing I do find rather curious is that any MMO that comes down the line seems to think that yup ~$15 is the going price. Why? Would seem that some would say be profitable at ~$10.
To come to a close I would compare whats said above with GW2's model, buy to play. Now I think it is a very well done game in many aspects, most aspects but even with no further fees I lost interest after maxing a warrior. It just doesn't have the atmosphere, soul that I found so enthralling in early WOW.
I can only wonder what Blizz and Sony have up there sleeves with Titan and EQNext.
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it.
Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?
You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.
variation keeps things alive.
You literally went from saying every MMO copied WoW, to saying its a good thing other MMOs didn't copy WoW...
I'll take that as agreement that we have not seen a "WoW clone" yet.
They TRIED to copy WoW but failed miserable and therefore there's indeed no "WoW clone".
And it would be a good thing if MMOs didn't try to copy WoW...but in reality they do
But that wasn't my point.... Do you really want a game that copies all of these features perfectly or do you want some variation and some new exciting concepts getting introduced into MMOland?
Lets not change the meaning of my post. You stated that all MMOs copied WoW, I pointed out that they clearly did not.
I'm all for variations of of the features I mention, even NEW ones for sure, but when your game doesnt even capture the basically functionality of the MMO its trying to "copy", it doesnt mean that "wow clones are bad", it means "half assed MMOs are bad"...
If you want to have a discussion regarding the featurs I mentioned not being needed, you can have that with someone else ;-)
As an example, would a lot of people sub to Warhammer if the sub was only $7 month?
Less people would sub, as the perception would be that it is lower quality.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The bottom line here is there is no black and white. No not all mmo's will go back to p2p and not not all games coming out with be f2p or b2p. If the game is good people will pay a fee each month. Does this mean that a game will come out of the gates with 10 million subs? hell no, not even close, blizzard never could do that either, it's has to grow. This can also be seen in blizzard still has over 9 million subs, people are still paying for this game, 9 million of them!!! F2P will always be around too, mostly for the dead games or games that never performed how the Dev's wanted them to or they just simply gave up on the P2P business model. B2P to me is a great model, GW2 prime example of this and to me it's just a very good value.
But here is the one that will come soon im sure. F2B/P2P, that's Free to buy, pay to play. If someone comes out with a great game that they give you for free and with a lower month fee of let's say 7.99 or 9.99 a month, people would pay this but only if the game is good enough. Download the game for free, take 30 days of free access to see how much you like the game then the monthly fee kicks in, pretty simple but you better have a good game. Players just do not trust any new MMO that comes out today, doesn't matter who the Dev is. Hell Blizzard is so afraid of announcing their new MMO that they came up with a card game just to buy some time..lol
Man, I'll start to believe that Wow is nothing more than devil's bussines, that's a way they have all those subs all those years. And once you sign pact with devil, hardly to go back.
I didn't bother reading your OP because the title is fundamentally wrong.
Subs *do* work now. Over half the Western market is sub based, and the converted F2P games that make up most of the other half offer subs.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen to the market if they completely removed the sub income. How many of the converted games would still be standing I wonder once the sub prop was removed?
The sub model is not only working, it is actually doing well under the F2P model. TERA, for instance, reports it has more gold tier players (subbers) now than it ever had subbers before when it charged for a client. It is the removal of the client cost is what's important, not the removal of the sub, because it allows an unlimited trial and player investment before asking for money. This is something that lazy thinkers don't seem to understand. They are looking at the wrong end of the business.
Simply put, there is a huge demand for the payment model and the fact that it is still a huge part of the MMORPG landscape when going up something billing itself as 'free' shows how robust and enduring it is.
Peddle your industry shilled received wisdom somewhere else.
I didn't bother reading your OP because the title is fundamentally wrong.
Subs *do* work now. Over half the Western market is sub based, and the converted F2P games that make up most of the other half offer subs.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen to the market if they completely removed the sub income. How many of the converted games would still be standing I wonder once the sub prop was removed?
The sub model is not only working, it is actually doing well under the F2P model. TERA, for instance, reports it has more gold tier players (subbers) now than it ever had subbers before when it charged for a client. It is the removal of the client cost is what's important, not the removal of the sub, because it allows an unlimited trial and player investment before asking for money. This is something that lazy thinkers don't seem to understand. They are looking at the wrong end of the business.
Simply put, there is a huge demand for the payment model and the fact that it is still a huge part of the MMORPG landscape when going up something billing itself as 'free' shows how robust and enduring it is.
Peddle your industry shilled received wisdom somewhere else.
TY for your input. Your right it is fundamentally wrong. I admit but it gets people to think. Creative writting.
As far as your thought about being shilled wisdom well it seems many here feel the same way as I do in this thread. This is after a community of MMO players so this is were I post.
I didn't bother reading your OP because the title is fundamentally wrong.
Subs *do* work now. Over half the Western market is sub based, and the converted F2P games that make up most of the other half offer subs.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen to the market if they completely removed the sub income. How many of the converted games would still be standing I wonder once the sub prop was removed?
The sub model is not only working, it is actually doing well under the F2P model. TERA, for instance, reports it has more gold tier players (subbers) now than it ever had subbers before when it charged for a client. It is the removal of the client cost is what's important, not the removal of the sub, because it allows an unlimited trial and player investment before asking for money. This is something that lazy thinkers don't seem to understand. They are looking at the wrong end of the business.
Simply put, there is a huge demand for the payment model and the fact that it is still a huge part of the MMORPG landscape when going up something billing itself as 'free' shows how robust and enduring it is.
Peddle your industry shilled received wisdom somewhere else.
Because a sub is cheaper than F2P. Except for everybody on this site who has never or will never pay a cent on cash shops. I'm not poor or like being second rate, so I pay.
Subs do not work, because I wouldn't even play 95% of the crap out if it was truely f2p with no cash shop....and I prefer subs, so its not like I am cheap and wanting to horde my money.
Example:
I bought TOR, had a lot of friends playing it from SWG, so said screw it. I played my free month, it was ok, not a big console player, and I generally do not like story stuff, but it was ok. My wife also played, we played the same class, me dark, her light, and 98% of the story was the same, despite our total opposite quest choices, biggest difference was she had some guy she tried to save help her in her final story fight, and I didn't cause I didn't care if he died.... The crafting/harvesting was horrible, I maxed out my crafting in one play session... So, while it looks like I am bashing it, it wasn't for me, BUT I always say, I got my money worth in the free month (I am not picky anymore on how much it takes to get my money worth, I use the how much is a movie if you go see it criteria). We quit after the free month, and I actually said at the time, if this game was f2p, no cash shop, I wouldn't keep playing...Sub money isn't an issue for me, but a game being worth staying in and giving time is what determines if I continue to play it.
I prefer a variety of game play, good harvesting/crafting, good exploring, non-instanced housing is a bonus, some interesting side loot games can be good...Hack and slash, while fun, doesn't equal longevity for me. I want a world, and hopefully after watching the EQNext video I saw today, they get that, and it isn't all lip service. They said something like, 'we are all guilty of making a game that it's only focus is hack and slash, while fun, it isn't a world that you that you get connected to, and feel part of'....I am sure I am off on that, as it was like 5am when I watched it....IT probably doesn't appeal to a game jumper, instanced is king person, but it is something that has been missing lately imo.
There is only one reason WoW has anything to do with games being mostly F2P (subscription-less) in today's market. It has nothing to do with graphics, or game mechanics, or hype.
So why are most games now F2P?
Because we have far more MMOs today than ever before, and gamers like to be able to try out different options available to them. Subscriptions don't really allow for this.
Comments
An interesting discussion that has so many variables it's entertaining itself.
Vanilla WOW is looked to as a base barometer in these discussion of subscription vs free to play as well it should be. There have been other sucessful subscription MMO models but we've yet to see any come even close to what Blizzard has managed. Perhaps it was a fluke as has been offered but I am not so sure. The timing was right no doubt, but what was it and what is it that keeps so many playing and yes paying.
Well Vanilla for me at least had a leveling curve that was just about perfect. Your progress was slow and steady and no I don't gobble content like a glutton. For me the pace was ............perfection. I was maybe 6 months in with rerolls and alts feeling my way through stopping to smell the fauna and enjoying each aspect as it opened to me. Level 40 for your first mount, meant something. You were fortunate if had accumulated enough gold to even afford your mount at 40, the tight economy was another key aspect that made things more worthwhile seeming.
In nearly every MMO since early WOW the leveling seems too fast paced, LOTRO wasn't to bad but mostly leveling to end game came too quickly in subsequent games. I suppose it also pertains to how you personally consume content, but I think the mainstream that was there in Vanilla, enjoyed the moderate pacing. Of course after the game had been out for several years that pace chaged substantially.
Back to the point on subscription, would seem to me ~$15 was a BARGAIN for all the entertainment value received. One thing I do find rather curious is that any MMO that comes down the line seems to think that yup ~$15 is the going price. Why? Would seem that some would say be profitable at ~$10.
To come to a close I would compare whats said above with GW2's model, buy to play. Now I think it is a very well done game in many aspects, most aspects but even with no further fees I lost interest after maxing a warrior. It just doesn't have the atmosphere, soul that I found so enthralling in early WOW.
I can only wonder what Blizz and Sony have up there sleeves with Titan and EQNext.
I have to disagree.
Reason: Its the mass numbers of MMos available combined with many Free 2 Play options to pick from.
Sure we have fond memories of Vanilla wow, but it was FAR from perfect. A lot of its issues would of quickly made most people run to the door. If released together, Vanilla WoW I'd make a gamble would of BOMBED as a sub model and likely would of be 'meh' as a F2P game'. The only thing it has going for it is its made by blizzard which can only garnish so much support.
There wasn't a bunch of crap MMos, in fact, there wasn't a bunch of MMos in general back then. It was a lot smaller selection and there were plenty of good ones to pick from. WoW just managed to draw the attention of more, utilizing Blizzards well respected name and the fact took it and believed it had potential is what allowed it to grow despite its many flaws. Much like Everquest 1 did before it (which was quite huge for its time people seem to forget) it was less of it being good that kept us, it was just the fact we saw it had potential.
MMO Saturation and wide availability just means we aren't as willing to invest in a game and support it. In that way, we are only helping towards the decline of MMos, giving no chance to a new one to really grow like WoW had the potential to do or many other games before it. Our ability to have so many options for MMos is a godsend and also a curse as it also means games that have so much potential don't get to have the support they so need. Vanilla wow does not deserve any real props for its 'success' as much as its time in which it came to be coming out at just the right time. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad game at all (in fact it actually felt as if it was getting better with TBC, to the point I was expecting it to be improved upon though unfortunately it seemed to keep taking 1 leap forward and 4 leaps back each expansion keeping the wrong elements and taking good ones away) it just was able to thrive due to the time it was released.
Titan will be a succes regardless of its merits due to the WoW crowd, EQNext will not be a succes unless they spam enough advertisements.
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
Please stop saying that all these games are copying WoW because they aren't. They are bastardizing WoW at best. 100% of these 'WoW Clones' are missing 5 or more key features of WoW. It is not a clone if you're missing so many key features. Unless you capture every feature and actually take the time to polish said features of WoW, you are not a WoW clone.
[mod edit]Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Really? Name me one MMO release in the last 8 years that launched with rated PVP Battlegrounds, Rated world ranked PvP Arenas, numerious high quality raid tiers having 3 levels of difficulty each, LFR Service, LFG service, and the wealth of supported addons and combat logs, cross realm grouping and questing, cross realm raiding, achivements, guild leveling and perks et c etc etc. Lets not forget all of the industy sponsored PvPers and raiding guilds (Swifty, DREAM Paragon) that go with all of afromed mentioned things.
Now, dont list me any that launched with one or two of the things mentioned above, or added it after its initial month drop off.
Im am being very serious, becuase if there is another with everything mentioned above, i'll buy it right now.
^This
Subs would work better if the games were actually worth $15/mo. I'll bet some of the better F2P or some struggling sub based games would do extremely well if they offered a lower montly subscription price and gave full access for that subscription. I'm not sure why the $15/mo is the price almost every sub game chooses.
As an example, would a lot of people sub to Warhammer if the sub was only $7 month? If this caused the populatiuon to increase more than ~50%, then their revenues would also increase from what they are making now at $15/mo.
Well it's called 'life', I'm sure you heard of it. <-- JOKING
Can't name any mmo that has these features right now, but do you really want the same list of features in every mmo you play?
You are not eating the cake because there's a strawberry instead of a cherry sitting on top. You are stuck in the thing called 'being narrow minded' and think that every mmo which does not have your fixed list of features but instead has another featurelist is a VERY, VERY bad thing.
variation keeps things alive.
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
Very good 15 minute video regarding the Industry, WoW and payment models. Whenever I see a thread like this I just post it as it usually explains itself better than simple writing and text.
The bottom line here is there is no black and white. No not all mmo's will go back to p2p and not not all games coming out with be f2p or b2p. If the game is good people will pay a fee each month. Does this mean that a game will come out of the gates with 10 million subs? hell no, not even close, blizzard never could do that either, it's has to grow. This can also be seen in blizzard still has over 9 million subs, people are still paying for this game, 9 million of them!!! F2P will always be around too, mostly for the dead games or games that never performed how the Dev's wanted them to or they just simply gave up on the P2P business model. B2P to me is a great model, GW2 prime example of this and to me it's just a very good value.
But here is the one that will come soon im sure. F2B/P2P, that's Free to buy, pay to play. If someone comes out with a great game that they give you for free and with a lower month fee of let's say 7.99 or 9.99 a month, people would pay this but only if the game is good enough. Download the game for free, take 30 days of free access to see how much you like the game then the monthly fee kicks in, pretty simple but you better have a good game. Players just do not trust any new MMO that comes out today, doesn't matter who the Dev is. Hell Blizzard is so afraid of announcing their new MMO that they came up with a card game just to buy some time..lol
Peace
Lascer
You literally went from saying every MMO copied WoW, to saying its a good thing other MMOs didn't copy WoW...
I'll take that as agreement that we have not seen a "WoW clone" yet.
They TRIED to copy WoW but failed miserable and therefore there's indeed no "WoW clone".
And it would be a good thing if MMOs didn't try to copy WoW...but in reality they do
But that wasn't my point.... Do you really want a game that copies all of these features perfectly or do you want some variation and some new exciting concepts getting introduced into MMOland?
"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable
TY Quizz as far as the fisrt part Blizz was indeed following the formula all ready set in motion by Sony and a few other pioneer game companies back in the game. They just step it up a notch or two and they were out to us the best MMO experience that they belived in. I don't see that as much for today's DEVS who give's us garbage and pass it on as a MMO game.
For the second part You are 100% right ty for the input. It was all about timing for Blizz so it was a fluke.TYVM very nice put.
Lets not change the meaning of my post. You stated that all MMOs copied WoW, I pointed out that they clearly did not.
I'm all for variations of of the features I mention, even NEW ones for sure, but when your game doesnt even capture the basically functionality of the MMO its trying to "copy", it doesnt mean that "wow clones are bad", it means "half assed MMOs are bad"...
If you want to have a discussion regarding the featurs I mentioned not being needed, you can have that with someone else ;-)
Less people would sub, as the perception would be that it is lower quality.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Very good point tyvm.
Peace
I didn't bother reading your OP because the title is fundamentally wrong.
Subs *do* work now. Over half the Western market is sub based, and the converted F2P games that make up most of the other half offer subs.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen to the market if they completely removed the sub income. How many of the converted games would still be standing I wonder once the sub prop was removed?
The sub model is not only working, it is actually doing well under the F2P model. TERA, for instance, reports it has more gold tier players (subbers) now than it ever had subbers before when it charged for a client. It is the removal of the client cost is what's important, not the removal of the sub, because it allows an unlimited trial and player investment before asking for money. This is something that lazy thinkers don't seem to understand. They are looking at the wrong end of the business.
Simply put, there is a huge demand for the payment model and the fact that it is still a huge part of the MMORPG landscape when going up something billing itself as 'free' shows how robust and enduring it is.
Peddle your industry shilled received wisdom somewhere else.
TY for your input. Your right it is fundamentally wrong. I admit but it gets people to think. Creative writting.
As far as your thought about being shilled wisdom well it seems many here feel the same way as I do in this thread. This is after a community of MMO players so this is were I post.
Because a sub is cheaper than F2P. Except for everybody on this site who has never or will never pay a cent on cash shops. I'm not poor or like being second rate, so I pay.
Subs do not work, because I wouldn't even play 95% of the crap out if it was truely f2p with no cash shop....and I prefer subs, so its not like I am cheap and wanting to horde my money.
Example:
I bought TOR, had a lot of friends playing it from SWG, so said screw it. I played my free month, it was ok, not a big console player, and I generally do not like story stuff, but it was ok. My wife also played, we played the same class, me dark, her light, and 98% of the story was the same, despite our total opposite quest choices, biggest difference was she had some guy she tried to save help her in her final story fight, and I didn't cause I didn't care if he died.... The crafting/harvesting was horrible, I maxed out my crafting in one play session... So, while it looks like I am bashing it, it wasn't for me, BUT I always say, I got my money worth in the free month (I am not picky anymore on how much it takes to get my money worth, I use the how much is a movie if you go see it criteria). We quit after the free month, and I actually said at the time, if this game was f2p, no cash shop, I wouldn't keep playing...Sub money isn't an issue for me, but a game being worth staying in and giving time is what determines if I continue to play it.
I prefer a variety of game play, good harvesting/crafting, good exploring, non-instanced housing is a bonus, some interesting side loot games can be good...Hack and slash, while fun, doesn't equal longevity for me. I want a world, and hopefully after watching the EQNext video I saw today, they get that, and it isn't all lip service. They said something like, 'we are all guilty of making a game that it's only focus is hack and slash, while fun, it isn't a world that you that you get connected to, and feel part of'....I am sure I am off on that, as it was like 5am when I watched it....IT probably doesn't appeal to a game jumper, instanced is king person, but it is something that has been missing lately imo.
Subscriptions don't work for most games, as there's not too many good games people are willing to pay a subscription for to start with.
It's as simple as that really: most games are not worth paying a subscription for.
Agreed
There is only one reason WoW has anything to do with games being mostly F2P (subscription-less) in today's market. It has nothing to do with graphics, or game mechanics, or hype.
So why are most games now F2P?
Because we have far more MMOs today than ever before, and gamers like to be able to try out different options available to them. Subscriptions don't really allow for this.