Kickstarter is a scam the way I see it, you get not protection as a backer.
While I wouldn't call it a scam, it definitely does allow people to prey on both people with poor business sense and people who confuse what they want a product to be with the reality of what it might be. To clarify, I'm not saying that of all kickstarter projects, but it shines through in way too many game/mmo projects.
Look at all the people that hear about a title coming out and, based on what they want it to be, talk about it as it has already been released, completely met the person's expectations and kicked every other game to the curb. Now give that same person the impression he will have some input or investment if he pitches in money. Gold mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To the OP, kickstarter for game projects is quite new. Ask this question in a couple years and we'll see. Personally, I like the idea that it doesn't need big corps to build a game and publish it. The freedom of creation simply worths it. It have also the potential to influence the market in a good way, preventing years of anti-creative game like thousands of copies of Everquest.
Kickstarter is a scam the way I see it, you get not protection as a backer.
While I wouldn't call it a scam, it definitely does allow people to prey on both people with poor business sense and people who confuse what they want a product to be with the reality of what it might be. To clarify, I'm not saying that of all kickstarter projects, but it shines through in way too many game/mmo projects.
Look at all the people that hear about a title coming out and, based on what they want it to be, talk about it as it has already been released, completely met the person's expectations and kicked every other game to the curb. Now give that same person the impression he will have some input or investment if he pitches in money. Gold mine.
It will be interesting to see what happens when those same people feel they aren't being listened to, as no company can implement every wish and desire, no matter which way they approach funding a project.
Even with no promise of being listened to people expect to be heard, answered as well as pleased by the end result. Add in the additional layer of a promise to be heard and listened to, you've got a recipe for some lofty expectations on behalf of player input.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If the Original Sin kickstarter goes through, and it looks like it will, it would be among the more bigger/polished titles to come out of kickstarter.
Supposedly Larian didn't have publisher support for Original Sin/Dragon commander, which I guess is partly why they turned to kickstarter to gather the funds to flesh out/add to the game before release.
Originally posted by Aerowyn look at when kickstarter opened up.. then think about how long an average game takes to make
But wouldn't that time get cut down seeing that a lot of those investor set deadlines would not be hindering nor pressuring the development team?
Man you are trying so hard.
And to answer your question, no. Typically the investors force early releases of games before they are finished, so if anything you would expect a kickstarter project to take LONGER to develop.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 And try to make it a good one. I'm not talking about these basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session. Because I'm trying to comprehend how people here think Kickstartering a game project leads to these superior games that cut out the middle man and pinheads that get in the way of a developer's full potential. To give this game a starting point let's compare it to say....the new Tomb Raider that was released. Cause that was a damn good game that I didn't have to pay a dime for (it came free with the purchase of a new video card along with Bioshock: Infinite).
You aren't straight out attacking Mark Jacobs due to forum rules - but it's apparent that you are being witty here. Threads like this always make me wonder if there are employees from competitive mmorpgs that are doing this per request.
what is on-time mean for a kickstarter project? id say most all MMOs don't release "on-time" how many have gotten delayed due to beta issues? almost everyone, and that is with a publisher breathing down the devs necks. With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsibility and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend someone money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when the recipient doesn't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsability and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend someone money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when the recipient doesn't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
Estimated is not the same as a deadline. So your argument is baseless on that note.
Kickstarter SAYS it doesn't protect the backers. It is simply an intermediary. Once again, you're just incorrect.
With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsability and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend you money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when you don't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
keyword estimated... i pre-ordered ESO from amazon.. the "estimated" delivery date is dec 31 this year(placeholder date) should i be pissed if it gets delayed to 2014? games always have snags, delays, no matter who is funding it. What happens when games get released well before they are ready? we see this all the time and they are a buggy, unbalanced, unfinished mess usually
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsability and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend someone money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when the recipient doesn't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
Estimated is not the same as a deadline. So your argument is baseless on that note.
Kickstarter SAYS it doesn't protect the backers. It is simply an intermediary. Once again, you're just incorrect.
I never used the word deadline, someone who quoted it used it, if you want to argue about the semantics between timeline and deadline be my guest, I really don't care, fact is projects have a time of delivery.
And second of all, I never said that kickstarter says they protect backers, I know they don't, I said it's actually wrong that they don't since, that's their JOB.
Kickstarter keeps 5% of every project that is backed, they have profits in the millions and they do NOTHING to protect backers, NOTHING.
Kickstarter is a pure scam.
If a bank lends money to someone they want guarantees, and the legal system allows them to have these guarantees.
When you back a project on kickstarter you actually sign that you don't want guarantees through their NDA, you actually agree that someone can take your money and do whatever the hell they like with it. You should have rights as a creditor, you are giving someone money and just like with a bank, giving someone money comes with strings attached unless it is a charity, and kickstarter taking 5% of the money sure as hell is not a charity.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 And try to make it a good one. I'm not talking about these basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session. Because I'm trying to comprehend how people here think Kickstartering a game project leads to these superior games that cut out the middle man and pinheads that get in the way of a developer's full potential. To give this game a starting point let's compare it to say....the new Tomb Raider that was released. Cause that was a damn good game that I didn't have to pay a dime for (it came free with the purchase of a new video card along with Bioshock: Infinite).
Why do you care what i do with my money ?
If i want to give my money to a bum under a bridge to buy more alchohol, will you make a post about that ?
Seriously why do you care if there is a Kickstarter ?
How does Kickstarter funded games affect you ?
IF we (backers of kickstarter games) want to spend our money in the hopes of helping a game get started and funded why does it bother you in anyway shape or form ?
DO you yell at people at Walmart for buying lottery tickets ?
Maybe you need to ask yourself why it makes you so concerned what we do with our money, and why it bothers you enough to start a thread about what others do with there own money.
No it isn't their job. They never said it was. That is what YOU are saying. You are making that assumption then trying to say they are in the wrong for a role you decided to give them that the never claimed they have. It isn't their job, their job is to provide taht delivery mechanism.
And yes they take a cut. As a delivery mechanism they make need to make their money in some way. It's also how many roles in many industries make their living. Two very obvious ones are lawyers and realtors.
By definition you are not a creditor since you have no claim on their services or assets. So once again, you're wrong. Thats not how it works. You just have this idea of what it SHOULD be so you keep attacking it because its not. Then simply don't use it, and let all these poor people be "scammed." Their money doesn't affect you, so let them utilize it as they please.
No it isn't their job. They never said it was. That is what YOU are saying.
And yes they take a cut. As a delivery mechanism they make need to make their money in some way.
That's not only what I am saying, that is why the legal system is in place to protect the creditor.
When you lend money from a bank, that creditor, the bank, is protected. The creditor will ask for a return on their investment, and when that bank doesn't get a return on their investment or doesn't get their loan back, they will use all legal means, to get their credit.
The same things happens with a publisher, when a game company wants money but doesn't deliver, the publisher is protected, and will make sure they get their money back.
The same thing happened with 38 studios, the creditor was the local state, 38 studios went belly up and the state is protected, went through the legal system that protected their investment. The state that backed 38 studios went after 38 studios and all 38 studios assets were now state property, the legal system is in place to make something like this possible, it protects the creditor.
But kickstarter is not like this, kickstarter works like this, and I quote from their page:
"It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds."
This is why Kickstarter is so successful, because it actually removes any power the creditor has, and the way they do this is through kickstarter which takes 5% of the money in return for not going after them and the people who lose out are actually the creditors, the backers who have no legal legs to stand on once a project doesn't deliver.
Not only is kickstarter a scam, most people still don't realise it is a scam, even though plenty of people have explained why.
if there was no crowdfunding sources it is possible the games like The repopulation and other such bigger projects may never get made... they may or may not it's hard to say really but in the end i'm curious why people care? if people fund it and the game ends up great then great we just funded a great game.. if a game is funded and ends up crap well shit happens but people who hate crowd sourcing obviously didn't fund the game so in the end why does it matter to them at all?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Ramonski7 And try to make it a good one. I'm not talking about these basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session. Because I'm trying to comprehend how people here think Kickstartering a game project leads to these superior games that cut out the middle man and pinheads that get in the way of a developer's full potential. To give this game a starting point let's compare it to say....the new Tomb Raider that was released. Cause that was a damn good game that I didn't have to pay a dime for (it came free with the purchase of a new video card along with Bioshock: Infinite).
You aren't straight out attacking Mark Jacobs due to forum rules - but it's apparent that you are being witty here. Threads like this always make me wonder if there are employees from competitive mmorpgs that are doing this per request.
just a thought - hope I'm wrong
No harm, no foul. Actually my point of this thread was to find a example of an untainted game of AAA quality fully funded, developed and released with nothing more than Kickstarter backing that would not otherwise have existed in it's current form because of the shackles of the so called creativity crushing publishers and investors. My first mistake was thinking that cutting out these scapegoats would speed up the development process. My second was asking a little bit too early as a lot of KS projects are no where near fruition.
Needless to say it seems that some feel that it's not publishers nor investors that have the most influence on the quality of games that may be release, but simply the almighty dollar. And KS is nothing more than a justification to obtaining more capital in order to reach the quality of AAA games. So now the it's up to the players themselves to fund startup cash for most of these endeavors instead of developers. I mean why bust your ass scraping together a proposal when you have plenty of gamers willing to give you cash upfront.
And in the end all they have accomplished is now instead of:
Find investors
Develop a work in progress
Pitch to a company
Get more money through investors
Meet your deadlines
Release your game
Collect your reward
You have:
Start a Kickstarter
Reach your funding goal
Develop a work in progress
Ask for more money
Reach your stretch goal
Work on the game
Release your game
Collect your reward
With steps 4-6 continuing for as long as it's needed because there are no deadlines once a game is fully funded.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 And try to make it a good one. I'm not talking about these basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session. Because I'm trying to comprehend how people here think Kickstartering a game project leads to these superior games that cut out the middle man and pinheads that get in the way of a developer's full potential. To give this game a starting point let's compare it to say....the new Tomb Raider that was released. Cause that was a damn good game that I didn't have to pay a dime for (it came free with the purchase of a new video card along with Bioshock: Infinite).
Why do you care what i do with my money ?
If i want to give my money to a bum under a bridge to buy more alchohol, will you make a post about that ?
Seriously why do you care if there is a Kickstarter ?
How does Kickstarter funded games affect you ?
IF we (backers of kickstarter games) want to spend our money in the hopes of helping a game get started and funded why does it bother you in anyway shape or form ?
DO you yell at people at Walmart for buying lottery tickets ?
Maybe you need to ask yourself why it makes you so concerned what we do with our money, and why it bothers you enough to start a thread about what others do with there own money.
If I'm asking for people to name a AAA Kickstarter game that was fully funded by Kickstarter contributions, how is that telling anyone what to do with their money? Maybe I'm asking so I can check out one of these games myself. I've played FTL and now I'm playing Planet Explorers (and I will be backing it) but they are both far from being games I wouldn't normally see coming down the pipeline the traditional way.
Again I think you have me confused with someone else. I fully support the idea of putting your money where you mouth is. My problem stems from people that think KS funded games are above and beyond the types of games that we can currently find. And that's just not the case. Especially since a lot of the more famous devs and more prominent games on KS have either spawned or benefited from traditional way games have been developed in the past. Ironic ain't it?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsability and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend someone money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when the recipient doesn't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
Estimated is not the same as a deadline. So your argument is baseless on that note.
Kickstarter SAYS it doesn't protect the backers. It is simply an intermediary. Once again, you're just incorrect.
I never used the word deadline, someone who quoted it used it, if you want to argue about the semantics between timeline and deadline be my guest, I really don't care, fact is projects have a time of delivery.
And second of all, I never said that kickstarter says they protect backers, I know they don't, I said it's actually wrong that they don't since, that's their JOB.
Kickstarter keeps 5% of every project that is backed, they have profits in the millions and they do NOTHING to protect backers, NOTHING.
Kickstarter is a pure scam.
If a bank lends money to someone they want guarantees, and the legal system allows them to have these guarantees.
When you back a project on kickstarter you actually sign that you don't want guarantees through their NDA, you actually agree that someone can take your money and do whatever the hell they like with it. You should have rights as a creditor, you are giving someone money and just like with a bank, giving someone money comes with strings attached unless it is a charity, and kickstarter taking 5% of the money sure as hell is not a charity.
You clearly have absolutely squat idea how investments work. Investments are a risk based business. You get 0 guarantees. none, whatsoever, unless you can prove criminal or civil negligence.
It is not a scam, it is clearly stated to you what you are doing. If 95% of people chose not to read or try to comprehend the fine print, its not their problem.
I'm sick and tired of this BS lack of personal responsibility that western society has come down to. Its never my fault, its always someone else's fault, someone else's responsibility. The government should protect me from my own incompetence.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 And try to make it a good one. I'm not talking about these basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session. Because I'm trying to comprehend how people here think Kickstartering a game project leads to these superior games that cut out the middle man and pinheads that get in the way of a developer's full potential. To give this game a starting point let's compare it to say....the new Tomb Raider that was released. Cause that was a damn good game that I didn't have to pay a dime for (it came free with the purchase of a new video card along with Bioshock: Infinite).
You aren't straight out attacking Mark Jacobs due to forum rules - but it's apparent that you are being witty here. Threads like this always make me wonder if there are employees from competitive mmorpgs that are doing this per request.
just a thought - hope I'm wrong
No harm, no foul. Actually my point of this thread was to find a example of an untainted game of AAA quality fully funded, developed and released with nothing more than Kickstarter backing that would not otherwise have existed in it's current form because of the shackles of the so called creativity crushing publishers and investors. My first mistake was thinking that cutting out these scapegoats would speed up the development process. My second was asking a little bit too early as a lot of KS projects are no where near fruition.
Needless to say it seems that some feel that it's not publishers nor investors that have the most influence on the quality of games that may be release, but simply the almighty dollar. And KS is nothing more than a justification to obtaining more capital in order to reach the quality of AAA games. So now the it's up to the players themselves to fund startup cash for most of these endeavors instead of developers. I mean why bust your ass scraping together a proposal when you have plenty of gamers willing to give you cash upfront.
And in the end all they have accomplished is now instead of:
Find investors
Develop a work in progress
Pitch to a company
Get more money through investors
Meet your deadlines
Release your game
Collect your reward
You have:
Start a Kickstarter
Reach your funding goal
Develop a work in progress
Ask for more money
Reach your stretch goal
Work on the game
Release your game
Collect your reward
With steps 4-6 continuing for as long as it's needed because there are no deadlines once a game is fully funded.
The other problem is that you are asking AAA quality from games that have a fraction of the budget of an AAA game.
Tomb raider probably cost about 100m+ to make while the most sucesfull KS is a lil bit over 4M, they are in different leagues.
Nobody expects AAA quality out of these games, these are mostly niche games that promise being good games, not technical benchmarks.
You clearly have absolutely squat idea how investments work. Investments are a risk based business. You get 0 guarantees. none, whatsoever, unless you can prove criminal or civil negligence.
You have plenty of guarantees as a creditor, and not only that, you have the legal means to go after recipients.
Rhode island forced 38 studios to sell all their assets, the minute 38 studios went belly up Rhode island claimed all assets of 38 studios.
PC from 38 studios claimed by Rhode island:
A bank has the same power, if you actually don't give a loan + interest back to the bank when they lend you money, guess what? They'll come claim your house and car.
As a creditor on kickstarter you have 0 legal means to stand on and kickstarter does nothing to support their backers. And there have been plenty of scammers on kickstarter, kickstarter itself is a scam.
Comments
While I wouldn't call it a scam, it definitely does allow people to prey on both people with poor business sense and people who confuse what they want a product to be with the reality of what it might be. To clarify, I'm not saying that of all kickstarter projects, but it shines through in way too many game/mmo projects.
Look at all the people that hear about a title coming out and, based on what they want it to be, talk about it as it has already been released, completely met the person's expectations and kicked every other game to the curb. Now give that same person the impression he will have some input or investment if he pitches in money. Gold mine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To the OP, kickstarter for game projects is quite new. Ask this question in a couple years and we'll see. Personally, I like the idea that it doesn't need big corps to build a game and publish it. The freedom of creation simply worths it. It have also the potential to influence the market in a good way, preventing years of anti-creative game like thousands of copies of Everquest.
Steven
No game I know of plays like Everquest. I think you mean copies of WoW.
It will be interesting to see what happens when those same people feel they aren't being listened to, as no company can implement every wish and desire, no matter which way they approach funding a project.
Even with no promise of being listened to people expect to be heard, answered as well as pleased by the end result. Add in the additional layer of a promise to be heard and listened to, you've got a recipe for some lofty expectations on behalf of player input.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If the Original Sin kickstarter goes through, and it looks like it will, it would be among the more bigger/polished titles to come out of kickstarter.
Supposedly Larian didn't have publisher support for Original Sin/Dragon commander, which I guess is partly why they turned to kickstarter to gather the funds to flesh out/add to the game before release.
edit: Also ftl was pretty neat
I know a few of them now have not met the dates they promised in the first kickstarter.
Repopulation for instance should have had the original kickstarter supporters in a beta by now.
Man you are trying so hard.
And to answer your question, no. Typically the investors force early releases of games before they are finished, so if anything you would expect a kickstarter project to take LONGER to develop.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I see a lot of people talking about scam this scam that..
Actually there are some serious stringent guidelines and protections for kickstarter.
If you wanna know how complex the process is go start the walk through for creating a new kickstarter [mod edit]
Basically if they do not deliver what they promise they can face some pretty stiff financial penalties and legal action.
Personally until I see if kickstarter actually goes after someone for not meeting their obligation Ill reserve judgement.
From the 50 most funded kickstarter projects, only 8 actually released on time.
http://money.cnn.com/interactive/technology/kickstarter-projects-shipping/
You aren't straight out attacking Mark Jacobs due to forum rules - but it's apparent that you are being witty here. Threads like this always make me wonder if there are employees from competitive mmorpgs that are doing this per request.
just a thought - hope I'm wrong
what is on-time mean for a kickstarter project? id say most all MMOs don't release "on-time" how many have gotten delayed due to beta issues? almost everyone, and that is with a publisher breathing down the devs necks. With no concrete deadlines not sure how you could say the projects haven't been released "on-time"
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Every project has a deadline, you can click any square there and it will show the deadline. It's a requirement for every project on kickstarter to have a timeline, you can find it on the "kickstarter guidelines" page.
"Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline."
What actually doesn't happen is that kickstarter doesn't actually "back" the backers, kickstarter foregoes any responsibility and is actually not supportive for backers.
Backers are a bit like a bank, you are a credit lender as a backer, but a bank asks for guarantees when they lend someone money and will resort to legal action no questions asked when the recipient doesn't deliver interest on time, kickstarter on the other hand doesn't protect you.
I think kickstarter is horrible, because kickstarter only has ONE JOB, it is to protect the backers, and even that they don't do.
Estimated is not the same as a deadline. So your argument is baseless on that note.
Kickstarter SAYS it doesn't protect the backers. It is simply an intermediary. Once again, you're just incorrect.
keyword estimated... i pre-ordered ESO from amazon.. the "estimated" delivery date is dec 31 this year(placeholder date) should i be pissed if it gets delayed to 2014? games always have snags, delays, no matter who is funding it. What happens when games get released well before they are ready? we see this all the time and they are a buggy, unbalanced, unfinished mess usually
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I never used the word deadline, someone who quoted it used it, if you want to argue about the semantics between timeline and deadline be my guest, I really don't care, fact is projects have a time of delivery.
And second of all, I never said that kickstarter says they protect backers, I know they don't, I said it's actually wrong that they don't since, that's their JOB.
Kickstarter keeps 5% of every project that is backed, they have profits in the millions and they do NOTHING to protect backers, NOTHING.
Kickstarter is a pure scam.
If a bank lends money to someone they want guarantees, and the legal system allows them to have these guarantees.
When you back a project on kickstarter you actually sign that you don't want guarantees through their NDA, you actually agree that someone can take your money and do whatever the hell they like with it. You should have rights as a creditor, you are giving someone money and just like with a bank, giving someone money comes with strings attached unless it is a charity, and kickstarter taking 5% of the money sure as hell is not a charity.
Why do you care what i do with my money ?
If i want to give my money to a bum under a bridge to buy more alchohol, will you make a post about that ?
Seriously why do you care if there is a Kickstarter ?
How does Kickstarter funded games affect you ?
IF we (backers of kickstarter games) want to spend our money in the hopes of helping a game get started and funded why does it bother you in anyway shape or form ?
DO you yell at people at Walmart for buying lottery tickets ?
Maybe you need to ask yourself why it makes you so concerned what we do with our money, and why it bothers you enough to start a thread about what others do with there own money.
Lolipops !
No it isn't their job. They never said it was. That is what YOU are saying. You are making that assumption then trying to say they are in the wrong for a role you decided to give them that the never claimed they have. It isn't their job, their job is to provide taht delivery mechanism.
And yes they take a cut. As a delivery mechanism they make need to make their money in some way. It's also how many roles in many industries make their living. Two very obvious ones are lawyers and realtors.
By definition you are not a creditor since you have no claim on their services or assets. So once again, you're wrong. Thats not how it works. You just have this idea of what it SHOULD be so you keep attacking it because its not. Then simply don't use it, and let all these poor people be "scammed." Their money doesn't affect you, so let them utilize it as they please.
That's not only what I am saying, that is why the legal system is in place to protect the creditor.
When you lend money from a bank, that creditor, the bank, is protected. The creditor will ask for a return on their investment, and when that bank doesn't get a return on their investment or doesn't get their loan back, they will use all legal means, to get their credit.
The same things happens with a publisher, when a game company wants money but doesn't deliver, the publisher is protected, and will make sure they get their money back.
The same thing happened with 38 studios, the creditor was the local state, 38 studios went belly up and the state is protected, went through the legal system that protected their investment. The state that backed 38 studios went after 38 studios and all 38 studios assets were now state property, the legal system is in place to make something like this possible, it protects the creditor.
But kickstarter is not like this, kickstarter works like this, and I quote from their page:
"It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds."
This is why Kickstarter is so successful, because it actually removes any power the creditor has, and the way they do this is through kickstarter which takes 5% of the money in return for not going after them and the people who lose out are actually the creditors, the backers who have no legal legs to stand on once a project doesn't deliver.
Not only is kickstarter a scam, most people still don't realise it is a scam, even though plenty of people have explained why.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Wildstar:
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No harm, no foul. Actually my point of this thread was to find a example of an untainted game of AAA quality fully funded, developed and released with nothing more than Kickstarter backing that would not otherwise have existed in it's current form because of the shackles of the so called creativity crushing publishers and investors. My first mistake was thinking that cutting out these scapegoats would speed up the development process. My second was asking a little bit too early as a lot of KS projects are no where near fruition.
Needless to say it seems that some feel that it's not publishers nor investors that have the most influence on the quality of games that may be release, but simply the almighty dollar. And KS is nothing more than a justification to obtaining more capital in order to reach the quality of AAA games. So now the it's up to the players themselves to fund startup cash for most of these endeavors instead of developers. I mean why bust your ass scraping together a proposal when you have plenty of gamers willing to give you cash upfront.
And in the end all they have accomplished is now instead of:
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
If I'm asking for people to name a AAA Kickstarter game that was fully funded by Kickstarter contributions, how is that telling anyone what to do with their money? Maybe I'm asking so I can check out one of these games myself. I've played FTL and now I'm playing Planet Explorers (and I will be backing it) but they are both far from being games I wouldn't normally see coming down the pipeline the traditional way.
Again I think you have me confused with someone else. I fully support the idea of putting your money where you mouth is. My problem stems from people that think KS funded games are above and beyond the types of games that we can currently find. And that's just not the case. Especially since a lot of the more famous devs and more prominent games on KS have either spawned or benefited from traditional way games have been developed in the past. Ironic ain't it?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You clearly have absolutely squat idea how investments work. Investments are a risk based business. You get 0 guarantees. none, whatsoever, unless you can prove criminal or civil negligence.
It is not a scam, it is clearly stated to you what you are doing. If 95% of people chose not to read or try to comprehend the fine print, its not their problem.
I'm sick and tired of this BS lack of personal responsibility that western society has come down to. Its never my fault, its always someone else's fault, someone else's responsibility. The government should protect me from my own incompetence.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
The other problem is that you are asking AAA quality from games that have a fraction of the budget of an AAA game.
Tomb raider probably cost about 100m+ to make while the most sucesfull KS is a lil bit over 4M, they are in different leagues.
Nobody expects AAA quality out of these games, these are mostly niche games that promise being good games, not technical benchmarks.
You have plenty of guarantees as a creditor, and not only that, you have the legal means to go after recipients.
Rhode island forced 38 studios to sell all their assets, the minute 38 studios went belly up Rhode island claimed all assets of 38 studios.
PC from 38 studios claimed by Rhode island:
A bank has the same power, if you actually don't give a loan + interest back to the bank when they lend you money, guess what? They'll come claim your house and car.
As a creditor on kickstarter you have 0 legal means to stand on and kickstarter does nothing to support their backers. And there have been plenty of scammers on kickstarter, kickstarter itself is a scam.