Originally posted by Niix_Ozek I agree people don't want to play daoc, but it has nothing to do with this argument and CD That's for other posts ...
I also believe to follow in the footsteps of daoc's rpg pvp combat is integral to CU success. Not having CD was an integral part of daoc success and to achieve the long lasting enjoyment of pvp.... not having CD is key IMO Time will tell maybe I'm wrong prove me wrong? I hope they don't bother because of performance as wanting CD and not apparently comes down to preference and what class that person plays. As a healer why wouldn't you want the enemy stuck behind your tanks so you can heal at ease ... Poor melee dps going to be bored as shit in keep battles Eye for an eye I guess
Fallacy. Seriously.
So, you will be melee DPS and the bunny hop, circle-jerk, button mash spam strategy will be nullified by CD, that's what this is about?
Arguments pro CD : The game must be more "realistic" Adds depth to combat and tactics
Arguments against CD : Pointless addition to combat which only hinders performance, which those added resources could be better spent improving all other resource draining aspects of the game Causes many ways for people to troll other players or abuse CD to exploit over powered tactics Not having CD provides just as many "tactical options " they change change, meaning healers and ranged don't 'just' have to hide behind tanks they have to think about the possibility of their position If people rush in and be prepared Provides many more options for groups to defend against enemies much larger than their own (think pbaoe in keeps) and many more options to employ while attacking a keep once a door falls instead of just squaring off in a game of who kills each others tanks first everytime, you have ability of groups to rush in and turn the tide of battle
Personally I know how much more fluid combat seems in a non cd method and I would much prefer those added resource enabling more people, better castles, smoother combat Then add CD to satisfys people's need for real life combat
CD takes good games and turns them into piles of steaming s***. I'll stick with CD in my single player games, it does not belong in MMO's. A low budget game with mass battles will never pull off fluid combat if they put in CD.
Insta flop inc if they put it in. Sorry, but in my nearly 20yrs of gaming my stance on CD in MMO's is still the same because its proven. In another 10yrs maybe gaming will be ready for real CD.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Arguments pro CD : The game must be more "realistic" Adds depth to combat and tactics
Arguments against CD : Pointless addition to combat which only hinders performance, which those added resources could be better spent improving all other resource draining aspects of the game This isnt an argument. We've already said that if CD cant be implemented well, then it shouldnt be. Arguing that it shouldnt even be considered because the in-house engine that we know nothing about might not be able to handle it is asinine.
Causes many ways for people to troll other players or abuse CD to exploit over powered tactics This is just false. I dont know how many times we have to say youre wrong. If you take even 10 minutes to think about it, all of these problems are easily handled.
Not having CD provides just as many "tactical options " they change change, meaning healers and ranged don't 'just' have to hide behind tanks they have to think about the possibility of their position If people rush in and be prepared If squishier classes just hide behind a line of tanks they'll find themselves in trouble when the surprise attack charges into their ranks from the rear. And the tanks wont be able to just run through the players behind them to react. Every strategy has a strategy that can counter it. You just have to create an enviornment that is robust enough for people to have the opportunity to come up with those strategies.
Provides many more options for groups to defend against enemies much larger than their own (think pbaoe in keeps) and many more options to employ while attacking a keep once a door falls instead of just squaring off in a game of who kills each others tanks first everytime, you have ability of groups to rush in and turn the tide of battle This makes no sense at all. CD forces larger groups to advance more slowly through a chokepoint. And why would you be going for the tanks first? You should be finding ways around them, not charging blindly onto a line of pikes. Everything you say keeps going back to DAOC and you refuse to see any way for these things to evolve. The doors falling down? What about the walls being broken through? Or ladders climbing over them?
Without CD the larger force is able to bring their numbers fully to bear. The entire fight devolving into one giant pile of players fighting on top of each other.
Personally I know how much more fluid combat seems in a non cd method and I would much prefer those added resource enabling more people, better castles, smoother combat How do you know? You've returned from the future to tell us all about CU's in-house engine and combat mechanics? Thats absolutely amazing. Can I borrow your time machine?
Get ready to be disappointed guys. It's 2013, not 1993. Game won't even start testing until 2014. You gaming experts don't have any more experience with games and MMOs than I do, so anonymous credentials on the internet = failsauce. I hope nobody quits when they find out that the engine is going to be designed and built with CD in mind going in, but don't be surprised is all I am saying. I am not affiliated with CSE at all, but I know Mark Jacobs doesn't have his head up his backside and is going to push the envelope when it comes to meaningful and challenging PvP. That's as much as an admission of CD in my book.
The problems I see with p2p CD is that it can turn areas with choke points into stalemates. You set up a tank wall and heal/rez through the damage. Turns things into a numbers battle with little skill. Eventually one side gets bored and gives up or makes a valiant effot and wipes. During this time, there's little for your meele DPS to do.
There must be ways to defeat the wall other than numbers. One way to do that is adding knockback to break up the wall. I think it would have to be more powerful than WAR's, because there, most of the wall would just bounce against a nearby object, run back in a second, and then be imune from knockback for a time. Anything you give the attackers, you give the defenders though and you run the risk of fights turning into something like smackhammer. I'm not a big fan of knockbacks.
At the very least, there must be ways to out flank the opposition. All open world choke points need to have nearby routes around the choke. With keeps, this could go down the path of having meele dps be able to climb walls. They've have to be able to receive group support from outside though and this leads to crying about keeps being ninja'd. The best way might be to allow siege weapons to completely destroy buildings. This would give the defenders time to wait for reinforcements, but they'd eventually have to come out or be destroyed. I'm afraid that might be creating a lot of boring play for a lot of players though.
Then I step back and ask, what is p2p CD really adding to the game that makes it better? And I can't think of much. The argument is usually that you make tanks useful, but you have to make them useful in open combat anyway.
To the person posting in red : MJ and Andrew have stated numerous times that they will be lowering the quality of graphics etc to ensure optimal performance, I am clearly just stating that CD will be a performance hit and with the already hits to graphics I woul prefer no CD and better graphics / keeps etc.
It's not false, whatever system you develop to handle people trolling it is going to take a hit to the fluidity of combat I don't care what you say
My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh look at big picture please You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games But good luck.
I had to vote yes. Any game that's going to focus purely on RvR has got to have CD included. If you're defending a keep and the gate is breached your natural 2nd line of defence will be your shield wall. If the enemy can just run through that then what's the fucking point?
What, the gate goes and we're fucked? Nah. Gotta be able to block the opposition or it's just too simplistic. I've seen arguments for and against CD and the word realism gets thrown around a lot. I don't see anything wrong with a more realistic system tbh, but what I don't want it to be is too easy. The ability to slow down your enemy by throwing bodies at them is exactly as it should be.
This.
One of the best aspect about WAR is you can prevent people from entering the keep by stacking up shea numbers at the door once it breached (which is how it was supposed to be, in siege warfare).
If you can just run through defense at will and assassinate them from behind there is really not much point in defending sieges.
I got a feeling that a lot of those that voted no are people who likes to run stealth classes or caster classes that favours having no obstruction at all (like for example the more survivable hybrid caster classes). Casters that are squishy, range non-caster classes or tanks I can't forsee will like having no CD at all (I guess that's why the poll is 1/3 saying no CD is good).
I had to vote yes. Any game that's going to focus purely on RvR has got to have CD included. If you're defending a keep and the gate is breached your natural 2nd line of defence will be your shield wall. If the enemy can just run through that then what's the fucking point?
What, the gate goes and we're fucked? Nah. Gotta be able to block the opposition or it's just too simplistic. I've seen arguments for and against CD and the word realism gets thrown around a lot. I don't see anything wrong with a more realistic system tbh, but what I don't want it to be is too easy. The ability to slow down your enemy by throwing bodies at them is exactly as it should be.
This.
One of the best aspect about WAR is you can prevent people from entering the keep by stacking up shea numbers at the door once it breached (which is how it was supposed to be, in siege warfare).
If you can just run through defense at will and assassinate them from behind there is really not much point in defending sieges.
I got a feeling that a lot of those that voted no are people who likes to run stealth classes or caster classes that favours having no obstruction at all (like for example the more survivable hybrid caster classes). Casters that are squishy, range non-caster classes or tanks I can't forsee will like having no CD at all (I guess that's why the poll is 1/3 saying no CD is good).
What I don't like in WAR is the limited CD. It should affect everyone the same. No running through your side.
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Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh look at big picture please You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games But good luck.
Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door? This is the part that keeps baffling me. Is it just lack of imagination?
Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.
Everything is so linear with you. Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.
I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.
For instance, if you have larger scale battles, with 50+ people per side, the combat is eventually going to clump up. Those clumps are going to be a big pain if the players all get tied up in a knot where nobody in the middle can move. Especially if there are player driven vehicles.
On the other hand, it adds an element of strategy, planning and a minimum skill requirement that doesn't exist without player to player collision detection. Positioning actually matters. Where you run actually matters. You have to look where you're going if you're in a group of people. The collision detection adds a whole layer of game play.
One thing I am sure about is that collision detection outside of combat is annoying and should not exist. Yes, it can make a virtual world more "real". It will also be abused in every way possible. It doesn't add enough to make up for the jackholes that abuse it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.
There's the $50,000 question: What is "done right"? I'm not sure anybody can describe what that is.
Who knows, maybe Foundational Principles Online can pull it off. We will just have to wait and see.
"Done right" would be a system implemented by MJ/CSE that the founders/backers/testers have play tested and given feedback on, and everyone came to a concensus with. But as you ended your post with we'll all just have to wait and see.
I think it would need to be a combination (mixed) system.
Where your Realm mates are More like Mud where you can pass through them but not easily especially in combat. Maybe make it Water out of combat or in safe areas where there is no pvp / rvr (towns, cities, whatever).
Enemies should always be hard collision though, then need to be Stone. Maybe add some sort of a shove system if your stronger than the other person or if they don't have a defense stance or ability like shield wall,hold the line, etc activated at the time, so you can shove past them possibly.
Collision Detection can be really good if it is done right as everyone says, doesn't cause a lot of lag or framerate issues, and doesn't cause Realm mates to block and grieft eachother.
Yes but it has to work correctly or don't bother at all.
Agreed. WAR had CD but it felt very glitchy and ultimately detracted from the combat. Eg. chasing someone as a melee and being just out of reach, yet colliding with him constantly so you couldn't get closer. Or being stuck inside one of your allies and having to jump and jerk your way out. Or trying to block someone getting at your healer yet people just running straight through you anyway.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh look at big picture please You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games But good luck.
Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door? This is the part that keeps baffling me. Is it just lack of imagination?
Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.
Everything is so linear with you. Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.
I'm not assuming anything lol, stop taking every example I say as the be all and end all... good god look at the big picture, i'm trying to describe certain scenarios that will be problematic, and any kind of stand off around keep gates or doors, the stalemate will get drawn out far too long and become boring, especially melee dps.
You can think what you want about my arguments and opinions, but from your responses it is clear you arn't listening so i'll stop talking to you. Maybe you should play the non-CD game that is basically one of the founding principles behind this game so you can understand.
CD in Warhammer was done rather well after about 8 months of various patches to the engine/netcode to mostly remove the rubberbanding and ghost players (note: it took >6 years for WoW to fix ambushing a moving target, so EAMythic/WAR wasn't exactly slacking). Particularly after they added the second "side ramp" to the lord room in keeps. It was pretty much done at that point. Could probably have used some terrain tuning for Forts, but Forts were out of play by that time.
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek ... My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh look at big picture please You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games But good luck.
Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door? This is the part that keeps baffling me. Is it just lack of imagination?
Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.
Everything is so linear with you. Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.
I'm not assuming anything lol, stop taking every example I say as the be all and end all... good god look at the big picture, i'm trying to describe certain scenarios that will be problematic, and any kind of stand off around keep gates or doors, the stalemate will get drawn out far too long and become boring, especially melee dps.
You can think what you want about my arguments and opinions, but from your responses it is clear you arn't listening so i'll stop talking to you. Maybe you should play the non-CD game that is basically one of the founding principles behind this game so you can understand.
I'm getting tired of the "everything must be exactly like in DAOC" argument. You want to claim its a foundational principle? But it just isnt.
If this was about making an exact clone of DAOC, MJ would have said something, anything, to indicate that. He hasnt. He isnt spending 5 million dollars over 2 years just to give you a new UI and skins for DAOC.
Those foundational points apply to every old school game, not just one. This is about making a new game that follows in the footsteps of that old school MMO model. A game that doesnt hold your hand.
Regardless of whether they have CD or not, combat and strategies are not going to be just like in DAOC. You arent going to be calling the exact same plays. That was over 10 years ago. They dont have the same technical limitations they did back then.
If you want to just play DAOC again without any new innovations there are freeshards of it out there. You could probably run your own server for less than people are pledging to this project.
I'm getting tired of the "everything must be exactly like in DAOC" argument. You want to claim its a foundational principle? But it just isnt.
If this was about making an exact clone of DAOC, MJ would have said something, anything, to indicate that. He hasnt. He isnt spending 5 million dollars over 2 years just to give you a new UI and skins for DAOC.
Those foundational points apply to every old school game, not just one. This is about making a new game that follows in the footsteps of that old school MMO model. A game that doesnt hold your hand.
Regardless of whether they have CD or not, combat and strategies are not going to be just like in DAOC. You arent going to be calling the exact same plays. That was over 10 years ago. They dont have the same technical limitations they did back then.
If you want to just play DAOC again without any new innovations there are freeshards of it out there. You could probably run your own server for less than people are pledging to this project.
You're again missing the point and screaming "everything must be like DAOC" that's not what i'm saying. What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO, daoc happens to be a major player in that statement and a huge reason for the need for a new game. So you can't ignore the opinions and successes of DAOC, they are a major reason CU is even a thought. So get off your high horse, you never even played DAOC from a previous comment you made ... so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.
combat and strategies are not going to be like DAOC ... yes we know, however from this forum and many others DAOC players ( major portion of the backers of this project ) have yet to play a game quite like DAOC. ... and DAOC combat is a BIG reason why so I don't get why we shouldn't adapt some of the things that made DAOC combat such a success ??
PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...
Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
...so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.
Riiight, saying that CD should be seriously considered by the team because it has huge potential for strategic play is "being a snob". Whereas immediatly saying the idea is wrong because "it wasnt in DAOC" is being mature. "Hail the almighty perfect DAOC. It is completely faultless and must not be questioned!!"
PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...
And if this were just an updated version of DAOC it wouldnt have a nearly as much pledged now as it does either. There is such a thing as being a niche, and then there is saying "no" to people who want almost the exact same thing as you. "Kill the heretic!!!!!"
Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
I'm not sick of talking about DAOC, its a really great game with great ideas. Im sick of it being held up as the one and only game with any worth. The Depths is not just darkness falls. Those "few" innovations completely revolutionize the whole concept. Nothing less than I'd expect from a good developer who likes to take risks. Positionals, interrupts, and CC arent just DAOC concepts. You have these blinders on that tell you that anything that was in DAOC was only in DAOC. And I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a WAR fan. Way to elevate the debate with the "QQ".
Wanting a creative developer to just outright remake DAOC is akin to bringing Picasso or Van Gogh forward in time to commision a painting and then asking him to just paint you a fresh copy of one of his old paintings again.
What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO,
I hope not. Last I checked CU was intended to be an RvR-focused game, period. A good RvR game probably has a lot of "old school" aspects to it. If you want to go really old school, they could make CU 2D with sprites. Yeah, oldschool for oldschool! Hoowah!
Let's release a caster class with the wrong recommended stat! Because DAOC did it! Yeah!
gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
WAR had a few positional styles, had pervasive positional mechanics, interrupts, pushback, and CC. Zzzz.
Overall WAR had a better combat system (although it took over 8 months of patches to sort everything out). Not much else to say.
...so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.
Riiight, saying that CD should be seriously considered by the team because it has huge potential for strategic play is "being a snob". Whereas immediatly saying the idea is wrong because "it wasnt in DAOC" is being mature. "Hail the almighty perfect DAOC. It is completely faultless and must not be questioned!!"
You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate.
PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...
And if this were just an updated version of DAOC it wouldnt have a nearly as much pledged now as it does either. There is such a thing as being a niche, and then there is saying "no" to people who want almost the exact same thing as you. "Kill the heretic!!!!!"
I'm merely saying most people backing this game were huge supporters of DAOC and want that niche game back. So i'm not sure what you're talking about.
Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
I'm not sick of talking about DAOC, its a really great game with great ideas. Im sick of it being held up as the one and only game with any worth. The Depths is not just darkness falls. Those "few" innovations completely revolutionize the whole concept. Nothing less than I'd expect from a good developer who likes to take risks. Positionals, interrupts, and CC arent just DAOC concepts. You have these blinders on that tell you that anything that was in DAOC was only in DAOC. And I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a WAR fan. Way to elevate the debate with the "QQ".
No one is having it being held up as the one and only game with any worth. The truth is it has a lot of concepts about 3 realm PVP that worked, and to make another 3 realm PVP game work you would think they want to look at what made DAOC a success, I personally believe no CD was a MAJOR reason for its success and I am simply promoting it. There are things about DAOC that I and many others would change, CD is just simply not. Positionals, interupts and CC done the way they were in DAOC was a DAOC concept and how they all intertwined together was another thing that made combat so fluid and fun for everyone. So that is what I was refering to, but again to the extreme.
Elevated by your continued whining.
Wanting a creative developer to just outright remake DAOC is akin to bringing Picasso or Van Gogh forward in time to commision a painting and then asking him to just paint you a fresh copy of one of his old paintings again.
Again maybe you will listen now that this is in orange, but no ones asking for a DAOC clone, we are looking for a game with old school concepts with new fresh update, but people want the mass battle on battle action that made daoc so great. I'm sad you don't agree that not having CD in daoc was a major reason for that continued support / long lasting memberships, however I do.
You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate...
So just actually describe why not having CD is so great. In both of these threads I keep throwing ideas at you of creative things you can put in a game with CD that all sound pretty great to me.
All I've been hearing in response is either:
"It will cause lag", which is completely conjecture. We have no basis to determine what their engine can or cant do.
or else:
"CD is lame because DAOC combat was good and didnt have CD" and then some sort of vague idea that AOE's and CD somehow cant coexist.
I'm not "degrading the debate", I'm asking for the causes and rational behind your opinion. I get that you have one. Everyone has opinions. Opinions arent worth a damn unless you can get the ideas behind them across to other people, which we both appear to be failing at here.
You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate...
So just actually describe why not having CD is so great. In both of these threads I keep throwing ideas at you of creative things you can put in a game with CD that all sound pretty great to me.
All I've been hearing in response is either:
"It will cause lag", which is completely conjecture. We have no basis to determine what their engine can or cant do.
or else:
"CD is lame because DAOC combat was good and didnt have CD" and then some sort of vague idea that AOE's and CD somehow cant coexist.
I'm not "degrading the debate", I'm asking for the causes and rational behind your opinion. I get that you have one. Everyone has opinions. Opinions arent worth a damn unless you can get the ideas behind them across to other people, which we both appear to be failing at here.
All the ideas people have for CD don't seem great to me, and i've been involved in every one of the CD debate threads and heard a lot, I def do a lot of thinking about it and draw on my experiences playing games with and without.
It causing lag isn't the response, the issue with CD and lag is that you will enevidably sacrifice other things to get CD in, even if the engine can handle it, the engine will handle no CD and better graphics or put CD and drop graphics a little again. As far as i've read they are already planning on dropping graphics from what games expect anyway, just don't see for the "positives" i keep hearing you would want to.
CD isn't lame because DAOC combat was good, but part of the reason DAOC combat was so good was lack of CD. I have imagined CD even with the "fixes" for trolling, being put into DAOC and it would be a cluster-fck of fail. Means you have to install abilities and skills to work with CD so CD doesn't become this over powered "skill" everyone has. Those alternatives that I see are ones I do not want to see in a game ever again as "fun" as they are the one time you troll someone off a bridge.
I've never been the best at explaining my rationales, but I keep trying because what I see and have seen through games are utter failures and I can't see a path to success to put CD into this game. How fun are battles on those "narrow" bridges in the Depths going to be if you can't CC and bust through into the back, I dislike mechanics that promote stand offs ... drains the fun really fast.
Comments
Fallacy. Seriously.
So, you will be melee DPS and the bunny hop, circle-jerk, button mash spam strategy will be nullified by CD, that's what this is about?
The game must be more "realistic"
Adds depth to combat and tactics
Arguments against CD :
Pointless addition to combat which only hinders performance, which those added resources could be better spent improving all other resource draining aspects of the game
Causes many ways for people to troll other players or abuse CD to exploit over powered tactics
Not having CD provides just as many "tactical options " they change change, meaning healers and ranged don't 'just' have to hide behind tanks they have to think about the possibility of their position If people rush in and be prepared
Provides many more options for groups to defend against enemies much larger than their own (think pbaoe in keeps) and many more options to employ while attacking a keep once a door falls instead of just squaring off in a game of who kills each others tanks first everytime, you have ability of groups to rush in and turn the tide of battle
Personally I know how much more fluid combat seems in a non cd method and I would much prefer those added resource enabling more people, better castles, smoother combat
Then add CD to satisfys people's need for real life combat
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
CD takes good games and turns them into piles of steaming s***. I'll stick with CD in my single player games, it does not belong in MMO's. A low budget game with mass battles will never pull off fluid combat if they put in CD.
Insta flop inc if they put it in. Sorry, but in my nearly 20yrs of gaming my stance on CD in MMO's is still the same because its proven. In another 10yrs maybe gaming will be ready for real CD.
The problems I see with p2p CD is that it can turn areas with choke points into stalemates. You set up a tank wall and heal/rez through the damage. Turns things into a numbers battle with little skill. Eventually one side gets bored and gives up or makes a valiant effot and wipes. During this time, there's little for your meele DPS to do.
There must be ways to defeat the wall other than numbers. One way to do that is adding knockback to break up the wall. I think it would have to be more powerful than WAR's, because there, most of the wall would just bounce against a nearby object, run back in a second, and then be imune from knockback for a time. Anything you give the attackers, you give the defenders though and you run the risk of fights turning into something like smackhammer. I'm not a big fan of knockbacks.
At the very least, there must be ways to out flank the opposition. All open world choke points need to have nearby routes around the choke. With keeps, this could go down the path of having meele dps be able to climb walls. They've have to be able to receive group support from outside though and this leads to crying about keeps being ninja'd. The best way might be to allow siege weapons to completely destroy buildings. This would give the defenders time to wait for reinforcements, but they'd eventually have to come out or be destroyed. I'm afraid that might be creating a lot of boring play for a lot of players though.
Then I step back and ask, what is p2p CD really adding to the game that makes it better? And I can't think of much. The argument is usually that you make tanks useful, but you have to make them useful in open combat anyway.
MJ and Andrew have stated numerous times that they will be lowering the quality of graphics etc to ensure optimal performance, I am clearly just stating that CD will be a performance hit and with the already hits to graphics I woul prefer no CD and better graphics / keeps etc.
It's not false, whatever system you develop to handle people trolling it is going to take a hit to the fluidity of combat I don't care what you say
My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh
You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well
No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games
But good luck.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
This.
One of the best aspect about WAR is you can prevent people from entering the keep by stacking up shea numbers at the door once it breached (which is how it was supposed to be, in siege warfare).
If you can just run through defense at will and assassinate them from behind there is really not much point in defending sieges.
I got a feeling that a lot of those that voted no are people who likes to run stealth classes or caster classes that favours having no obstruction at all (like for example the more survivable hybrid caster classes). Casters that are squishy, range non-caster classes or tanks I can't forsee will like having no CD at all (I guess that's why the poll is 1/3 saying no CD is good).
What I don't like in WAR is the limited CD. It should affect everyone the same. No running through your side.
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Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door? This is the part that keeps baffling me. Is it just lack of imagination?
Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.
Everything is so linear with you. Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.
I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.
For instance, if you have larger scale battles, with 50+ people per side, the combat is eventually going to clump up. Those clumps are going to be a big pain if the players all get tied up in a knot where nobody in the middle can move. Especially if there are player driven vehicles.
On the other hand, it adds an element of strategy, planning and a minimum skill requirement that doesn't exist without player to player collision detection. Positioning actually matters. Where you run actually matters. You have to look where you're going if you're in a group of people. The collision detection adds a whole layer of game play.
One thing I am sure about is that collision detection outside of combat is annoying and should not exist. Yes, it can make a virtual world more "real". It will also be abused in every way possible. It doesn't add enough to make up for the jackholes that abuse it.
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There's the $50,000 question: What is "done right"? I'm not sure anybody can describe what that is.
Who knows, maybe Foundational Principles Online can pull it off. We will just have to wait and see.
"Done right" would be a system implemented by MJ/CSE that the founders/backers/testers have play tested and given feedback on, and everyone came to a concensus with. But as you ended your post with we'll all just have to wait and see.
I think it would need to be a combination (mixed) system.
Where your Realm mates are More like Mud where you can pass through them but not easily especially in combat. Maybe make it Water out of combat or in safe areas where there is no pvp / rvr (towns, cities, whatever).
Enemies should always be hard collision though, then need to be Stone. Maybe add some sort of a shove system if your stronger than the other person or if they don't have a defense stance or ability like shield wall,hold the line, etc activated at the time, so you can shove past them possibly.
Collision Detection can be really good if it is done right as everyone says, doesn't cause a lot of lag or framerate issues, and doesn't cause Realm mates to block and grieft eachother.
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Agreed. WAR had CD but it felt very glitchy and ultimately detracted from the combat. Eg. chasing someone as a melee and being just out of reach, yet colliding with him constantly so you couldn't get closer. Or being stuck inside one of your allies and having to jump and jerk your way out. Or trying to block someone getting at your healer yet people just running straight through you anyway.
I'm not assuming anything lol, stop taking every example I say as the be all and end all... good god look at the big picture, i'm trying to describe certain scenarios that will be problematic, and any kind of stand off around keep gates or doors, the stalemate will get drawn out far too long and become boring, especially melee dps.
You can think what you want about my arguments and opinions, but from your responses it is clear you arn't listening so i'll stop talking to you. Maybe you should play the non-CD game that is basically one of the founding principles behind this game so you can understand.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I'm getting tired of the "everything must be exactly like in DAOC" argument. You want to claim its a foundational principle? But it just isnt.
If this was about making an exact clone of DAOC, MJ would have said something, anything, to indicate that. He hasnt. He isnt spending 5 million dollars over 2 years just to give you a new UI and skins for DAOC.
Those foundational points apply to every old school game, not just one. This is about making a new game that follows in the footsteps of that old school MMO model. A game that doesnt hold your hand.
Regardless of whether they have CD or not, combat and strategies are not going to be just like in DAOC. You arent going to be calling the exact same plays. That was over 10 years ago. They dont have the same technical limitations they did back then.
If you want to just play DAOC again without any new innovations there are freeshards of it out there. You could probably run your own server for less than people are pledging to this project.
You're again missing the point and screaming "everything must be like DAOC" that's not what i'm saying. What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO, daoc happens to be a major player in that statement and a huge reason for the need for a new game. So you can't ignore the opinions and successes of DAOC, they are a major reason CU is even a thought. So get off your high horse, you never even played DAOC from a previous comment you made ... so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.
combat and strategies are not going to be like DAOC ... yes we know, however from this forum and many others DAOC players ( major portion of the backers of this project ) have yet to play a game quite like DAOC. ... and DAOC combat is a BIG reason why so I don't get why we shouldn't adapt some of the things that made DAOC combat such a success ??
PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...
Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Wanting a creative developer to just outright remake DAOC is akin to bringing Picasso or Van Gogh forward in time to commision a painting and then asking him to just paint you a fresh copy of one of his old paintings again.
What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO,
I hope not. Last I checked CU was intended to be an RvR-focused game, period. A good RvR game probably has a lot of "old school" aspects to it. If you want to go really old school, they could make CU 2D with sprites. Yeah, oldschool for oldschool! Hoowah!
Let's release a caster class with the wrong recommended stat! Because DAOC did it! Yeah!
gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ
WAR had a few positional styles, had pervasive positional mechanics, interrupts, pushback, and CC. Zzzz.
Overall WAR had a better combat system (although it took over 8 months of patches to sort everything out). Not much else to say.
Again maybe you will listen now that this is in orange, but no ones asking for a DAOC clone, we are looking for a game with old school concepts with new fresh update, but people want the mass battle on battle action that made daoc so great. I'm sad you don't agree that not having CD in daoc was a major reason for that continued support / long lasting memberships, however I do.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
So just actually describe why not having CD is so great. In both of these threads I keep throwing ideas at you of creative things you can put in a game with CD that all sound pretty great to me.
All I've been hearing in response is either:
"It will cause lag", which is completely conjecture. We have no basis to determine what their engine can or cant do.
or else:
"CD is lame because DAOC combat was good and didnt have CD" and then some sort of vague idea that AOE's and CD somehow cant coexist.
I'm not "degrading the debate", I'm asking for the causes and rational behind your opinion. I get that you have one. Everyone has opinions. Opinions arent worth a damn unless you can get the ideas behind them across to other people, which we both appear to be failing at here.
All the ideas people have for CD don't seem great to me, and i've been involved in every one of the CD debate threads and heard a lot, I def do a lot of thinking about it and draw on my experiences playing games with and without.
It causing lag isn't the response, the issue with CD and lag is that you will enevidably sacrifice other things to get CD in, even if the engine can handle it, the engine will handle no CD and better graphics or put CD and drop graphics a little again. As far as i've read they are already planning on dropping graphics from what games expect anyway, just don't see for the "positives" i keep hearing you would want to.
CD isn't lame because DAOC combat was good, but part of the reason DAOC combat was so good was lack of CD. I have imagined CD even with the "fixes" for trolling, being put into DAOC and it would be a cluster-fck of fail. Means you have to install abilities and skills to work with CD so CD doesn't become this over powered "skill" everyone has. Those alternatives that I see are ones I do not want to see in a game ever again as "fun" as they are the one time you troll someone off a bridge.
I've never been the best at explaining my rationales, but I keep trying because what I see and have seen through games are utter failures and I can't see a path to success to put CD into this game. How fun are battles on those "narrow" bridges in the Depths going to be if you can't CC and bust through into the back, I dislike mechanics that promote stand offs ... drains the fun really fast.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked