Like you, I feel a definite lack of "RPG" in MMORPGs today.
"Do you feel there are still RPG elements within the genre?" Maybe a few elements, but not many left.
"Are you still as mesmerised by the fantasy created by developers?" Not in the least. I am tired of saving the world in scripted storylines that "end a game" in a genre supposedly about "never ending."
"Or do you yearn for a time when pen-and-paper influences were more pronounced, and character and choice was valued?" I yearn... lol
[EDIT] Got thinking about my own D&D experiences and realized, even in that one setting, I had many varying games. All after DM1 were AD&D versions (3 core books covered everything). DM1 was a redbox edition.
DM1: Great story teller. Unfortunately, he wrote everything out that would happen to my character before we even played. I spent my time trying to break out of his predetermined storyline, trying to foil his plans. It became a mini-game between us
DM2 & 3: Great Narrators and World Builders. Loved to interact with the players through NPC dialogue. We spent more time out of combat than in combat. Both wanted us to succeed and even helped us develop our characters. Puzzles and mysteries to be solved infected our gameplay. These DMs encouraged group dynamics and any player vs player conflict was heavily avoided for if not, a character died.
DM4: Made a world and dropped us in with no direction. Many player deaths. We usually rolled 3 characters each (there were only 3 of us players + DM) and did not even name our characters until they hit at least 3rd level.
DM5: Enjoyed killing players. This was definitely an "Us vs Him" game setting. We did not play with him as DM very much.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by kaltahn That whole, "We murdered the merchant" thing... it happens way more than you might think. I've been playing D&D solidly every week for the last 17 years, with different groups - sometimes with hardcore roleplayers, other times with hardcore rule-mongers. I've also been playing MMOs since MajorMUD - Ultima Online - EQ1 (whichever you consider to be the first "true" MMORPG; it's up to interpretation). I can hardly see where there's similarities anymore - which is truly disheartening. The two closest experiences I've ever had were in Asheron's Call, where I joined a Sho guild that heavily roleplayed "Robed Sword Monks", and Shadowbane in an all-Irekei guild with their own made-up language. None of these games could truly grant you the absolute freedom of roleplay that tabletop RPGs can, mostly due to the inability to program code that allows for every possible whim a player has. But, therein lies the rub - do you really want everybody to be able to kill the dang merchant? For every freedom you grant a player in an online game, there are consequences - and in the videogame industry, consequences can mean a drop in sales.I don't particularly mind that my MMOs aren't so close to my D&D experiences. I play the two separate genres for entirely different reasons, so it's okay if MMORPGs re-define those last few words of the acronym.
You made some great points and I agree with most of them!
I'd like to address the underlined part. That is no longer a 2-way street. Give players freedoms without consequences, and anarchy reigns supreme. In Tingle's example, a player was hung for murdering the merchant. That will NEVER happen in an MMO setting.
I'd love to have a game that had consequences for players choices. You just cannot give players total freedom to act as they please with no backlash for those actions. I see no trouble with players wanting to slaughter a whole village. I have a definite problem that no villager ran from the village to the closest big city and brought back with them a sizable militia to "punish" the player, ie: player is dead - reroll a new one.
As to the last, MMORPGs can never be the same as a tabletop experience. They are too large for DM-like interaction. That being said, they certainly could be closer than they currently are.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'd love to have a game that had consequences for players choices. You just cannot give players total freedom to act as they please with no backlash for those actions. I see no trouble with players wanting to slaughter a whole village. I have a definite problem that no villager ran from the village to the closest big city and brought back with them a sizable militia to "punish" the player, ie: player is dead - reroll a new one.
The problem being to introduce consequences you have to pre map out all of the choices, ala Swtor. Can it be done better than Swtor did, yes, but you will still have a whole slew of complaints because "Thats not a choice I wanted to make".
As to the last, MMORPGs can never be the same as a tabletop experience. They are too large for DM-like interaction. That being said, they certainly could be closer than they currently are.
Not by much, the tech is just nowhere near close to it yet. We just do not have the processing power necassary to pull it off in even a semi realistic way, and with the end of Moore's law fast approaching we are not likely to have it anytime soon. Its like looking at the Occulas Rift and saying all games should be in 3d now, even though the product itself is far away from "good".
Have said it for years that PnP gamers are what the orginal MMORPGs where made for and they are still the largest part of MMORPG gaming but not the current MMOs. Look at Kickstart and you will see the new PnP games get more in donations than MMOs do and stronger support. In order for MMOs to survive they need to realize why MMOs where made and the true audience that wants to play them for years. Todays games and gamers do not want to play for years so they do not want to play a MMO. Even PnP games last for years and have depth that was only match by the orginal MMOs.
We need to take back our games!
I would not have mentioned D&D since they are dead Pathfinder is the new gaint in Roleplaying.
FYI...Piazo is making a MMO based off their PnP but 90% of the people on these forums won't play it because they truly don't want a MMORPG to play.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I'd love to have a game that had consequences for players choices. You just cannot give players total freedom to act as they please with no backlash for those actions. I see no trouble with players wanting to slaughter a whole village. I have a definite problem that no villager ran from the village to the closest big city and brought back with them a sizable militia to "punish" the player, ie: player is dead - reroll a new one.
The problem being to introduce consequences you have to pre map out all of the choices, ala Swtor. Can it be done better than Swtor did, yes, but you will still have a whole slew of complaints because "Thats not a choice I wanted to make".
Not even the basic choices are present in most games: Good, Neutral, Evil. Let alone the Law vs Chaos choices. In most MMOs, only one choice is presented: Yes (do the quest) or No (skip the quest). Is it harder? Of course it is! Instead of trying to write a scripted story that they cannot sell to book publishers, try making the gameplay more interesting. Just a thought.
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by AlBQuirky As to the last, MMORPGs can never be the same as a tabletop experience. They are too large for DM-like interaction. That being said, they certainly could be closer than they currently are.
Not by much, the tech is just nowhere near close to it yet. We just do not have the processing power necassary to pull it off in even a semi realistic way, and with the end of Moore's law fast approaching we are not likely to have it anytime soon. Its like looking at the Occulas Rift and saying all games should be in 3d now, even though the product itself is far away from "good".
This has nothing to do with processing power or technology. Tabletop games were about a small group of people (2-10) sitting around a table with a DM in place to help guide and interact with players personally. DMs had the ability to think on the fly and react to players' choices and actions. MMOs just cannot recreate this setting and still be "massive." Maybe in dungeon settings (with small groups), but that would make the costs soar through the roof.
It would be totally awesome if every NPC a player talked with was a DM with a chat box instead of text box with very limited (if any) choices for dialogue. The costs would be astounding, though, so I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever. This is the difference between Tabletop RPGs and MMORPGs. Not technology.
Of course, "The Masses" would never go for this kind of gameplay. They want action, action, and more action. Sales would not be in the millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
As someone who played D&D for longer than I care to mention, I can tell you that virtually all of our sessions were similar to the author's. There were always piles of snacks, tons of joking, laughing, fun, and yes, even roleplaying. I started back before the internet when my friends and I were often just bored and continued well after the internet and video games could fill as much of our free time as we wanted it to. Just having a reason to get together with your friends on weekends and have tons of laughs and fun was reason enough to keep playing.
As for online MMORPGs, I have never ever felt the urge to roleplay in theml. They just don't feel the same. I am usually with most other people in feeling like the people who RP on the RP servers are hardcore dorks. Considering my background that is sort of ironic.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
Not even the basic choices are present in most games: Good, Neutral, Evil. Let alone the Law vs Chaos choices. In most MMOs, only one choice is presented: Yes (do the quest) or No (skip the quest). Is it harder? Of course it is! Instead of trying to write a scripted story that they cannot sell to book publishers, try making the gameplay more interesting. Just a thought.
How do you recommend they do that? If you want choice in a mechanical setting it must all be preprogrammed in. Even strung together binary choices, like The Witcher, or Telltales The Walking Dead have insane cloud maps of story because each decision must come with a consequence, otherwise its not meaningful. You do not see much of this in mmo's because you have the whole issue of playing with others to consider (different takes on this, from Swtor overriding one of you if you chose differently to how Eso appears to be doing it where each of you sees the consequences of their own desicion split by client) and to be honest its flatly more expensive because its much much more complex.
This has nothing to do with processing power or technology. Tabletop games were about a small group of people (2-10) sitting around a table with a DM in place to help guide and interact with players personally. DMs had the ability to think on the fly and react to players' choices and actions. MMOs just cannot recreate this setting and still be "massive." Maybe in dungeon settings (with small groups), but that would make the costs soar through the roof.
It would be totally awesome if every NPC a player talked with was a DM with a chat box instead of text box with very limited (if any) choices for dialogue. The costs would be astounding, though, so I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever. This is the difference between Tabletop RPGs and MMORPGs. Not technology.
Of course, "The Masses" would never go for this kind of gameplay. They want action, action, and more action. Sales would not be in the millions.
Thats the thing, it is just a matter of technology. You want a computer to effectively similute a human, with human like decision making. It will be possible, just not for another decade or so. The human brain performs at roughly 100tfp, and the new Titan card comes in at just over 2. I also disagree that sales would be poor. At worst you can condition players to play a certain way, much like the manipulation that WoW has done with energy stystems. Really though, all you need to do is show them something awesome of a certain quality and they will come.
Originally posted by Livnthedream How do you recommend they do that? If you want choice in a mechanical setting it must all be preprogrammed in. Even strung together binary choices, like The Witcher, or Telltales The Walking Dead have insane cloud maps of story because each decision must come with a consequence, otherwise its not meaningful. You do not see much of this in mmo's because you have the whole issue of playing with others to consider (different takes on this, from Swtor overriding one of you if you chose differently to how Eso appears to be doing it where each of you sees the consequences of their own desicion split by client) and to be honest its flatly more expensive because its much much more complex.
Decision trees are nothing new. Really, when all is said and done, it still comes down to "do the quest" or "not do the quest." What is missing is the "why." It is an illusion, to be sure, but helps a player connect with their character.
When an NPC asks a player to collect animal parts, being a Druid, Ranger, or other nature loving class has no recourse other than, "No thanks. Won't do it." Would being able to say to the NPC in a text choice, "Sorry, sir. I cannot do this as it is against my beliefs." alter the outcome at all? Does that dialogue change the game and require massive amounts of technology to accomplish? Of course not. It is still the choice of "Do or Do Not." But now there is a connection between the player and their character, giving the character a little depth to it. Sure, it just an illusion, but one that helps, I think, with immersion. RPG may be achieved.
Originally posted by Livnthedream Thats the thing, it is just a matter of technology. You want a computer to effectively similute a human, with human like decision making.
As for this last part, DM =/= AI. No tech involved. Just massive amounts of money to pay all the human DMs needed
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Decision trees are nothing new. Really, when all is said and done, it still comes down to "do the quest" or "not do the quest." What is missing is the "why." It is an illusion, to be sure, but helps a player connect with their character.
When an NPC asks a player to collect animal parts, being a Druid, Ranger, or other nature loving class has no recourse other than, "No thanks. Won't do it." Would being able to say to the NPC in a text choice, "Sorry, sir. I cannot do this as it is against my beliefs." alter the outcome at all? Does that dialogue change the game and require massive amounts of technology to accomplish? Of course not. It is still the choice of "Do or Do Not." But now there is a connection between the player and their character, giving the character a little depth to it. Sure, it just an illusion, but one that helps, I think, with immersion. RPG may be achieved.
I get what you are saying, its merely looking at the shortcoming to try an fix it. I like story in my mmo's. that context is the very reason why I enjoyed Swtor and Tsw as much as I did. The problem being neither of them did it very well. Both tech wise and content wise its extremely expensive, especially as you expand the cloud.
As for this last part, DM =/= AI. No tech involved. Just massive amounts of money to pay all the human DMs needed
Which is exactly why its unrealistic. Replacing humans with machines is the far cheaper and far better quality solution, its just a matter of waiting for the technology to get there.
There are many ways to add more RP systems in MMORPG without much technology needed. As many previously stated, we want more connection with our in game character, and the lack of choices and consequences is greatly the cause of our disappointment.
In truth, I'm not talking or requesting complicated systems but rather the implementation of simple systems that already existed in earlier games. The lack of role playing lead to bland classes and finally the merger of all into one single class, which resumes itself as min-max char in game as it becomes the only value left in almost all the recent games.
Take for example the Paladin class in game, anyone who played D&D PnP knows the power and restrictions of that class! In recent MMORPG, they are just another class free to ignore the defenseless, murder people at will, etc all without consequences. Likewise you have the Rogues who can't steal or do anything related to their class, except being used as the lead PvP class.
Now take a look at older games like Baldur's Gate (this one came to mind as the Enhanced version was recently released). There's no need to completely script all the posssible actions of a player. If you start with a Rogue class char there, you are free to try using your skills to pickpocket from any npc for example (killing or any otherwise evil interaction), and if you are caught the militia will come automatically and hunt you down.
More and more games use the alignment system in char creation however it has no real consequences in game, at most one type of weapon unusable by the char.
Talking back about the Paladin example, give buff or have exp progression by doing action in concordance to their char, and debuff/penalties for going against. The loyal good Paladin helping evil by accepting a quest he shouldn't, not helping one he should, or simply PKing at random can easily be expressed with a loss of exp, or any kind of debuff such as the temporary loss of spell usage (or whatever other skill) granted by his god.
If leveling exp gain and loss from in-game was coming more from performing actions that are in line with your char class and alignment, you'll see much more RP feel in those games, rather that simply being funneled into which class kills mobs the fastest and which class is the best for PVP.
Under such condition, the word "grind" would disappear because killing mobs exclusively is no longer the main or only way to progress; and what would be the use to have the super defender Paladin capable of owning anyone in PVP if each time you want to grief someone you lose all your skills...
So many small changes can give so much more "life" to the worlds we are playing in, if you consider class and alignment specific interactions with NPCs (all with virtually very little extra programming work) . As such you could have an honest merchant NPC that would display better quality items to the noble Paladin while only trading lower quality ones or refusing to trade with the evil Assassin; like wise the dishonest merchant could over-charge the innocent Paladin while the rogue would get special price/items,
All those things would give so much more value to the choices you make while creating your char, and even more so as you play it, rather than just getting the most powerful weapon, killing mobs for the next few months, reach level cap, grief lower levels to prove our own strength, then quit the game out of boredom.
So many small changes can give so much more "life" to the worlds we are playing in, if you consider class and alignment specific interactions with NPCs (all with virtually very little extra programming work) . As such you could have an honest merchant NPC that would display better quality items to the noble Paladin while only trading lower quality ones or refusing to trade with the evil Assassin; like wise the dishonest merchant could over-charge the innocent Paladin while the rogue would get special price/items,
All those things would give so much more value to the choices you make while creating your char, and even more so as you play it, rather than just getting the most powerful weapon, killing mobs for the next few months, reach level cap, grief lower levels to prove our own strength, then quit the game out of boredom.
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Agreed. Too many Devs are looking for the big things... the flashy graphics... the epic bosses.
Simply working on the basic stuff could rally improve and enhance the whole experience.
BTW... anyone remember the D&D Easter Egg video at the end of Red Faction?
Great article. This is exactly why I am looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar (SotA) http://www.shroudoftheavatar.com so much. Ultima Online (UO) had so much more freedom than any MMO I have played since. If Richard Garriott can recapture even half the magic that made UO so amazing than it will be my game of the decade.
To make things clear.. todays MMOs are hugely misguided stories to the fact and the truth of Role-playing games in general. I have played tabletop RPG's. D&D, AD&D, Whitewolf and many more. I loved the games and the way the story would change with the players actions. It added a flair that mo computer could ever give. Do not get me wrong I enjoy the mordern MMO's as well. I have played many over my years. But generally speaking most of the communities now a days have forgotten what "Role Playing" means. I remember playing MUD's yes the old text style RPG's on the internet those held great truth to tthe Role playing aspect. In those old MUD's ppl still used IC (In Character) and OOC (Out of Character) and knwo the difference between them. Now a days even us players that are use to IC and OOC convos get looked at wierdly. Cause the newer group age of players do not understand or no how to tell the difference. It is with this scenario that makes it hard for all the new MMORPG games to hold true to the old style of Role Playing. It is said that the aspect of it has been lost and no everything is just veiwed as a game. when the true purpose of RPG games PnP and MUD's that started this all was to be used as a hobby.. not just a "game" as it has become now.. It also upsets me that Dungeons and Dragons has also took a turn for the worst with their release of the DDO MMORPG. If you take the try PnP players to the game and take the time to play DDO for just a day or two. You will see how the mordern MMO has lost it's insight of the PnP. I challenge all the readers.. to go out spend that 30 dollars on a GM guide book and a Campaign adventure of PnP and try it for once. and then go play your Mordern MMO. I can gaureentee you will see what us old timers mean. As for me I encourage the family table talks and engagment. So our family uses PnP to engage our family with a true and wonderful Family game that we all can work together and helo our children learn the truth between fanatasy and reality. Have fun and as always enjoy the true meaning of gaming and RPing.
Good article. And I agree, at least some MMOs needs to go back to the roots.
I actually hoped that MMOs would move more to pen and paper and less to Diablo back in the early days.
One of the great things with P&P is that there you solve problems your way, you often do get pointed in the direction of something but how you solve it is your choice and that gives a lot more feeling of accomplishment than when you get railroaded into doing something specific.
Quest which must be solved in a specific way are not that exiting and gets old pretty fast. And allowing us to actually place stats that affect the game at least gives an illusion that my character is unique instead of a cardboard copy of anyone else with the same class.
D&D is not the best choice of PnP game though because it always been a bit limited compared to other PnP games. Pathfinder improved the rules so you actually get more flexibility and less focus on gear but I rather prefer games like Shadowrun where character improvements is almost everything instead of gear.
It will take many years and many failed attempts before game developers get anywhere near what the old PnP games could do. So much fun, laughter and all that is largely missing from modern MMOs. Largely, but not completely.
Not just MMOs, however. Skyrim, for all its great elements doesn't let you become a bandit king. You can play a badarse (SIC) bandit yourself, but never get to talk to the others, join or lead them. You'll think of heaps more examples of things you can do PnP that you can't do in computer games.
You could, if you had a huge team of massively talented people making the game up for you as you went along. But it's hard to develop games live...
No computer game can replace my old DnD cleric. Yep, Feyd my old pal, we've had some great times. You were the chaotic neutral, self-serving, hedonistic, apathetic and violent priest of Sharess who'd always be the first to charge in and the last to provide healing.
Some of his more memorable quotes:
"Right, so a huge army of hobgoblins is marching on the town. So what? Let's just go to some other town, I've slept with most of the women in this one already."
"Sure we could sneak around the ogres, but why? *Bull's Strength* *Shield of Faith* Charge!"
"Well, I could cast cure moderate wounds on you, but what are you going to do for me?"
Ahhh, if only a computer game could cope with and reward player complexity like that. If only a computer game could cope with players not wanting to follow the main quest like a human DM can.
Maybe one day we'll be able to have live-animated 'dungeon master' and 'pc' virtual reality helmets, and the problem will be solved.
Although you can never capture the true essense of an RPG in a video game, due to the medium's natural restictions, some developers have done a phenomenal job with the attempt; old Bioware titles and CD Projekt's The Witcher series to name a couple. It's even harder with MMO's because of the static world that this type of game must keep. Yes, some MMORPG's have some dynamic events, but the overall world still remains a static one. As a result, your impact on this virtual world seems minimal at best. Though I must say that the older MMORPG titles still did a much better job at mimicry than the newer titles do.
MMORPG developers have definitely lost their way. However, the problem seems to be a double edged sword. RPG's (pen and paper), at their birth and for many years thereafter, had always been a niche market. Only a particular type of person would play them; a person like myself. With the advent of video games, RPG's found a natural place amongst the medium. The first RPG video games held very true to thier pen and paper roots though still remained a niche market.
As the popularity of video games rose and then the advent of MMORPG's, we have seen developers stray from the genre's roots in hopes of roping in the broader masses; and it worked. The MMORPG genre is bigger than ever, howbeit, at the expense of a diluted structure and simplified core. The very basic mechanics of the RPG remains, but little to nothing else beyond that.
Now back to that double edged sword I spoke of. As developers have simplified the genre, they have managed to turn a niche market mainstream. So although we must cope with a simplier MMORPG, our choice of which one to play has broadened tremendously. Overall, the amount of games out there is probably 10 fold to what we would have if the genre had held to it's roots.
Personally, I'd prefer fewer choices of hardcore RPG's though I always try to remain positive. I was DM for about 15 years and I miss playing very much, but I just don't have the time to prepare and play anymore so I look to video games to fill my need of RPG's
...Personally, I'd prefer fewer choices of hardcore RPG's though I always try to remain positive. I was DM for about 15 years and I miss playing very much, but I just don't have the time to prepare and play anymore so I look to video games to fill my need of RPG's
Yeah, it's sad isn't it? PnP would still be great fun but you grow up, people move around, don't have time, hard to organise. So much easier to just boot up the PC.
That whole, "We murdered the merchant" thing... it happens way more than you might think. I've been playing D&D solidly every week for the last 17 years, with different groups - sometimes with hardcore roleplayers, other times with hardcore rule-mongers. I've also been playing MMOs since MajorMUD - Ultima Online - EQ1 (whichever you consider to be the first "true" MMORPG; it's up to interpretation). I can hardly see where there's similarities anymore - which is truly disheartening. The two closest experiences I've ever had were in Asheron's Call, where I joined a Sho guild that heavily roleplayed "Robed Sword Monks", and Shadowbane in an all-Irekei guild with their own made-up language.
None of these games could truly grant you the absolute freedom of roleplay that tabletop RPGs can, mostly due to the inability to program code that allows for every possible whim a player has. But, therein lies the rub - do you really want everybody to be able to kill the dang merchant? For every freedom you grant a player in an online game, there are consequences - and in the videogame industry, consequences can mean a drop in sales.
I don't particularly mind that my MMOs aren't so close to my D&D experiences. I play the two separate genres for entirely different reasons, so it's okay if MMORPGs re-define those last few words of the acronym.
But if for some reason you could not play PnP any more and only had MMOs you would be unhappy. MMOs are currently devoid of nearly every feature that makes PnP fun. Having said that, I have to concede that programming something to behave like a PnP RPG seems to be in the realm of fantasy.
Fantastic article and some incredibley insightful comments. So many out-of-the-box modern MMOs worship numbers above all else. It's the hook, and hundreds of thousands of people play for that, and not to have fun! You make D&D sound like a good time while at the same time identifying the biggest problem with the current trend in MMOs. Excellently written.
Comments
Like you, I feel a definite lack of "RPG" in MMORPGs today.
"Do you feel there are still RPG elements within the genre?"
Maybe a few elements, but not many left.
"Are you still as mesmerised by the fantasy created by developers?"
Not in the least. I am tired of saving the world in scripted storylines that "end a game" in a genre supposedly about "never ending."
"Or do you yearn for a time when pen-and-paper influences were more pronounced, and character and choice was valued?"
I yearn... lol
[EDIT]
Got thinking about my own D&D experiences and realized, even in that one setting, I had many varying games. All after DM1 were AD&D versions (3 core books covered everything). DM1 was a redbox edition.
DM1: Great story teller. Unfortunately, he wrote everything out that would happen to my character before we even played. I spent my time trying to break out of his predetermined storyline, trying to foil his plans. It became a mini-game between us
DM2 & 3: Great Narrators and World Builders. Loved to interact with the players through NPC dialogue. We spent more time out of combat than in combat. Both wanted us to succeed and even helped us develop our characters. Puzzles and mysteries to be solved infected our gameplay. These DMs encouraged group dynamics and any player vs player conflict was heavily avoided for if not, a character died.
DM4: Made a world and dropped us in with no direction. Many player deaths. We usually rolled 3 characters each (there were only 3 of us players + DM) and did not even name our characters until they hit at least 3rd level.
DM5: Enjoyed killing players. This was definitely an "Us vs Him" game setting. We did not play with him as DM very much.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'd like to address the underlined part. That is no longer a 2-way street. Give players freedoms without consequences, and anarchy reigns supreme. In Tingle's example, a player was hung for murdering the merchant. That will NEVER happen in an MMO setting.
I'd love to have a game that had consequences for players choices. You just cannot give players total freedom to act as they please with no backlash for those actions. I see no trouble with players wanting to slaughter a whole village. I have a definite problem that no villager ran from the village to the closest big city and brought back with them a sizable militia to "punish" the player, ie: player is dead - reroll a new one.
As to the last, MMORPGs can never be the same as a tabletop experience. They are too large for DM-like interaction. That being said, they certainly could be closer than they currently are.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The biggest difference between a tabletop RPG and most modern MMOs is the lack of a feedback loop between the players and the world/plot.
The problem being to introduce consequences you have to pre map out all of the choices, ala Swtor. Can it be done better than Swtor did, yes, but you will still have a whole slew of complaints because "Thats not a choice I wanted to make".
Not by much, the tech is just nowhere near close to it yet. We just do not have the processing power necassary to pull it off in even a semi realistic way, and with the end of Moore's law fast approaching we are not likely to have it anytime soon. Its like looking at the Occulas Rift and saying all games should be in 3d now, even though the product itself is far away from "good".
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Have said it for years that PnP gamers are what the orginal MMORPGs where made for and they are still the largest part of MMORPG gaming but not the current MMOs. Look at Kickstart and you will see the new PnP games get more in donations than MMOs do and stronger support. In order for MMOs to survive they need to realize why MMOs where made and the true audience that wants to play them for years. Todays games and gamers do not want to play for years so they do not want to play a MMO. Even PnP games last for years and have depth that was only match by the orginal MMOs.
We need to take back our games!
I would not have mentioned D&D since they are dead Pathfinder is the new gaint in Roleplaying.
FYI...Piazo is making a MMO based off their PnP but 90% of the people on these forums won't play it because they truly don't want a MMORPG to play.
It would be totally awesome if every NPC a player talked with was a DM with a chat box instead of text box with very limited (if any) choices for dialogue. The costs would be astounding, though, so I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever. This is the difference between Tabletop RPGs and MMORPGs. Not technology.
Of course, "The Masses" would never go for this kind of gameplay. They want action, action, and more action. Sales would not be in the millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
As someone who played D&D for longer than I care to mention, I can tell you that virtually all of our sessions were similar to the author's. There were always piles of snacks, tons of joking, laughing, fun, and yes, even roleplaying. I started back before the internet when my friends and I were often just bored and continued well after the internet and video games could fill as much of our free time as we wanted it to. Just having a reason to get together with your friends on weekends and have tons of laughs and fun was reason enough to keep playing.
As for online MMORPGs, I have never ever felt the urge to roleplay in theml. They just don't feel the same. I am usually with most other people in feeling like the people who RP on the RP servers are hardcore dorks. Considering my background that is sort of ironic.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
How do you recommend they do that? If you want choice in a mechanical setting it must all be preprogrammed in. Even strung together binary choices, like The Witcher, or Telltales The Walking Dead have insane cloud maps of story because each decision must come with a consequence, otherwise its not meaningful. You do not see much of this in mmo's because you have the whole issue of playing with others to consider (different takes on this, from Swtor overriding one of you if you chose differently to how Eso appears to be doing it where each of you sees the consequences of their own desicion split by client) and to be honest its flatly more expensive because its much much more complex.
Thats the thing, it is just a matter of technology. You want a computer to effectively similute a human, with human like decision making. It will be possible, just not for another decade or so. The human brain performs at roughly 100tfp, and the new Titan card comes in at just over 2. I also disagree that sales would be poor. At worst you can condition players to play a certain way, much like the manipulation that WoW has done with energy stystems. Really though, all you need to do is show them something awesome of a certain quality and they will come.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
When an NPC asks a player to collect animal parts, being a Druid, Ranger, or other nature loving class has no recourse other than, "No thanks. Won't do it." Would being able to say to the NPC in a text choice, "Sorry, sir. I cannot do this as it is against my beliefs." alter the outcome at all? Does that dialogue change the game and require massive amounts of technology to accomplish? Of course not. It is still the choice of "Do or Do Not." But now there is a connection between the player and their character, giving the character a little depth to it. Sure, it just an illusion, but one that helps, I think, with immersion. RPG may be achieved.
As for this last part, DM =/= AI. No tech involved. Just massive amounts of money to pay all the human DMs needed- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I get what you are saying, its merely looking at the shortcoming to try an fix it. I like story in my mmo's. that context is the very reason why I enjoyed Swtor and Tsw as much as I did. The problem being neither of them did it very well. Both tech wise and content wise its extremely expensive, especially as you expand the cloud.
Which is exactly why its unrealistic. Replacing humans with machines is the far cheaper and far better quality solution, its just a matter of waiting for the technology to get there.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
There are many ways to add more RP systems in MMORPG without much technology needed. As many previously stated, we want more connection with our in game character, and the lack of choices and consequences is greatly the cause of our disappointment.
In truth, I'm not talking or requesting complicated systems but rather the implementation of simple systems that already existed in earlier games. The lack of role playing lead to bland classes and finally the merger of all into one single class, which resumes itself as min-max char in game as it becomes the only value left in almost all the recent games.
Take for example the Paladin class in game, anyone who played D&D PnP knows the power and restrictions of that class! In recent MMORPG, they are just another class free to ignore the defenseless, murder people at will, etc all without consequences. Likewise you have the Rogues who can't steal or do anything related to their class, except being used as the lead PvP class.
Now take a look at older games like Baldur's Gate (this one came to mind as the Enhanced version was recently released). There's no need to completely script all the posssible actions of a player. If you start with a Rogue class char there, you are free to try using your skills to pickpocket from any npc for example (killing or any otherwise evil interaction), and if you are caught the militia will come automatically and hunt you down.
More and more games use the alignment system in char creation however it has no real consequences in game, at most one type of weapon unusable by the char.
Talking back about the Paladin example, give buff or have exp progression by doing action in concordance to their char, and debuff/penalties for going against. The loyal good Paladin helping evil by accepting a quest he shouldn't, not helping one he should, or simply PKing at random can easily be expressed with a loss of exp, or any kind of debuff such as the temporary loss of spell usage (or whatever other skill) granted by his god.
If leveling exp gain and loss from in-game was coming more from performing actions that are in line with your char class and alignment, you'll see much more RP feel in those games, rather that simply being funneled into which class kills mobs the fastest and which class is the best for PVP.
Under such condition, the word "grind" would disappear because killing mobs exclusively is no longer the main or only way to progress; and what would be the use to have the super defender Paladin capable of owning anyone in PVP if each time you want to grief someone you lose all your skills...
So many small changes can give so much more "life" to the worlds we are playing in, if you consider class and alignment specific interactions with NPCs (all with virtually very little extra programming work) . As such you could have an honest merchant NPC that would display better quality items to the noble Paladin while only trading lower quality ones or refusing to trade with the evil Assassin; like wise the dishonest merchant could over-charge the innocent Paladin while the rogue would get special price/items,
All those things would give so much more value to the choices you make while creating your char, and even more so as you play it, rather than just getting the most powerful weapon, killing mobs for the next few months, reach level cap, grief lower levels to prove our own strength, then quit the game out of boredom.
Agreed. Too many Devs are looking for the big things... the flashy graphics... the epic bosses.
Simply working on the basic stuff could rally improve and enhance the whole experience.
BTW... anyone remember the D&D Easter Egg video at the end of Red Faction?
I found it: Summoner Geeks. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17PKGHLppMI
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Great article. This is exactly why I am looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar (SotA) http://www.shroudoftheavatar.com so much. Ultima Online (UO) had so much more freedom than any MMO I have played since. If Richard Garriott can recapture even half the magic that made UO so amazing than it will be my game of the decade.
Good article. And I agree, at least some MMOs needs to go back to the roots.
I actually hoped that MMOs would move more to pen and paper and less to Diablo back in the early days.
One of the great things with P&P is that there you solve problems your way, you often do get pointed in the direction of something but how you solve it is your choice and that gives a lot more feeling of accomplishment than when you get railroaded into doing something specific.
Quest which must be solved in a specific way are not that exiting and gets old pretty fast. And allowing us to actually place stats that affect the game at least gives an illusion that my character is unique instead of a cardboard copy of anyone else with the same class.
D&D is not the best choice of PnP game though because it always been a bit limited compared to other PnP games. Pathfinder improved the rules so you actually get more flexibility and less focus on gear but I rather prefer games like Shadowrun where character improvements is almost everything instead of gear.
Too true, too true.
It will take many years and many failed attempts before game developers get anywhere near what the old PnP games could do. So much fun, laughter and all that is largely missing from modern MMOs. Largely, but not completely.
Not just MMOs, however. Skyrim, for all its great elements doesn't let you become a bandit king. You can play a badarse (SIC) bandit yourself, but never get to talk to the others, join or lead them. You'll think of heaps more examples of things you can do PnP that you can't do in computer games.
You could, if you had a huge team of massively talented people making the game up for you as you went along. But it's hard to develop games live...
No computer game can replace my old DnD cleric. Yep, Feyd my old pal, we've had some great times. You were the chaotic neutral, self-serving, hedonistic, apathetic and violent priest of Sharess who'd always be the first to charge in and the last to provide healing.
Some of his more memorable quotes:
"Right, so a huge army of hobgoblins is marching on the town. So what? Let's just go to some other town, I've slept with most of the women in this one already."
"Sure we could sneak around the ogres, but why? *Bull's Strength* *Shield of Faith* Charge!"
"Well, I could cast cure moderate wounds on you, but what are you going to do for me?"
Ahhh, if only a computer game could cope with and reward player complexity like that. If only a computer game could cope with players not wanting to follow the main quest like a human DM can.
Maybe one day we'll be able to have live-animated 'dungeon master' and 'pc' virtual reality helmets, and the problem will be solved.
Until then, MMO-not-RPGs will have to suffice.
Although you can never capture the true essense of an RPG in a video game, due to the medium's natural restictions, some developers have done a phenomenal job with the attempt; old Bioware titles and CD Projekt's The Witcher series to name a couple. It's even harder with MMO's because of the static world that this type of game must keep. Yes, some MMORPG's have some dynamic events, but the overall world still remains a static one. As a result, your impact on this virtual world seems minimal at best. Though I must say that the older MMORPG titles still did a much better job at mimicry than the newer titles do.
MMORPG developers have definitely lost their way. However, the problem seems to be a double edged sword. RPG's (pen and paper), at their birth and for many years thereafter, had always been a niche market. Only a particular type of person would play them; a person like myself. With the advent of video games, RPG's found a natural place amongst the medium. The first RPG video games held very true to thier pen and paper roots though still remained a niche market.
As the popularity of video games rose and then the advent of MMORPG's, we have seen developers stray from the genre's roots in hopes of roping in the broader masses; and it worked. The MMORPG genre is bigger than ever, howbeit, at the expense of a diluted structure and simplified core. The very basic mechanics of the RPG remains, but little to nothing else beyond that.
Now back to that double edged sword I spoke of. As developers have simplified the genre, they have managed to turn a niche market mainstream. So although we must cope with a simplier MMORPG, our choice of which one to play has broadened tremendously. Overall, the amount of games out there is probably 10 fold to what we would have if the genre had held to it's roots.
Personally, I'd prefer fewer choices of hardcore RPG's though I always try to remain positive. I was DM for about 15 years and I miss playing very much, but I just don't have the time to prepare and play anymore so I look to video games to fill my need of RPG's
Yeah, it's sad isn't it? PnP would still be great fun but you grow up, people move around, don't have time, hard to organise. So much easier to just boot up the PC.
But if for some reason you could not play PnP any more and only had MMOs you would be unhappy. MMOs are currently devoid of nearly every feature that makes PnP fun. Having said that, I have to concede that programming something to behave like a PnP RPG seems to be in the realm of fantasy.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Fantastic article and some incredibley insightful comments. So many out-of-the-box modern MMOs worship numbers above all else. It's the hook, and hundreds of thousands of people play for that, and not to have fun! You make D&D sound like a good time while at the same time identifying the biggest problem with the current trend in MMOs. Excellently written.