One of the biggest problems with WAR was very simple. They were not given the development time to create 3 factions as was originally intended with that title. They had to rush it and push it out the door with 2 factions.
Personally I don't support a RvR only game. But the fact is (in my mind), WAR was never given the time and resources it needed to succeed.
What third faction...?
Hate to break it to you but the Warhammer universe is very much a two faction universe (when we talk about any sort of cooperation happening) Order vs Chaos (later called destruction) unless you class the more or less un-aligned races such as Woodelves, Skaven, Lizardmen and Ogers as a faction.. but they were not exactly working together.. they were as stated pretty much unaligned and fought on their own terms for what ever goal they had.. this goal just happend to align with this or that faction from time to time.
Do tell.. what third faction.?
Guess I will have to dig up something on the 'net just to prove this. Yay. I was around while WAR was in Dev. I was around when they said it would have 3 factions. I don't know shit about GW, the IP it was based on. I just know what was planned for the MMORPG itself.
I remember when they said it would release with only 2 factions instead.
EDIT: My best inquiries were met with Error 404 pages. So, in essence, I don't care if you believe me or not. I know what I know.
Well we have to agree to disagree then.
It is worth to point out in relation CU tho, it is very often that plans have to be changed for one reason ot the other..
This will happen to Camelot too... And it will be a bloody hilarious outrage here. Mostly because we the players have been let in so very early in the development process.
Interesting. My recollection of WAR seems quite different from some others. Was in beta 1 from very early on. This is what I recall:-
There was never a third faction. Testers asked for it, the answer always was the lore and GW didn't allow it.
From what I remember, Open world PvP was in from the beginning. There wasn't much to do initially, in beta 1 we saw some objectives added (capture the flag type stuff), but testers were crying out for keep warfare, so around November 2007, Mythic shut down beta for around a month while they went back to the drawing board and came up with pretty much what your playing today.
Originally posted by Purutzil So you are saying his newer title was bad, but his older one was good so it means its going to be good? If so, then obviously all the sonic games I should be hyped out to come out since all the old Sonic titles were so amazing that the next new one obviously has to be good!
The new sonic titles are not made by the same people as the originals... horrible analogy.
Bottom line, the game he had the MOST involvement in - DAoC, was one of the best MMORPGs of all time.
The game where he was mostly put in charge of money, and had to answer to Electronic Arts (who has killed EnB, Sims Online, WAR, and SWTOR) was his weakest entry.
Originally posted by ShakyMo No it would have made more senses
As law vs chaos vs evil. (there is no good alignment in warhammer) dark elves working with warriors if chaos makes bigger all sense.
It would make even more sense as an 11 faction game. Just favour every army in war has a long history of being at war with the others, except for empire vs dwarfs.
The 2 sides thing is a very recent development.
11 factions would've been crazy but definitely closer to the Warhammer IP. I would've enjoyed that.
One of the biggest problems with WAR was very simple. They were not given the development time to create 3 factions as was originally intended with that title. They had to rush it and push it out the door with 2 factions.
Personally I don't support a RvR only game. But the fact is (in my mind), WAR was never given the time and resources it needed to succeed.
What third faction...?
Hate to break it to you but the Warhammer universe is very much a two faction universe (when we talk about any sort of cooperation happening) Order vs Chaos (later called destruction) unless you class the more or less un-aligned races such as Woodelves, Skaven, Lizardmen and Ogers as a faction.. but they were not exactly working together.. they were as stated pretty much unaligned and fought on their own terms for what ever goal they had.. this goal just happend to align with this or that faction from time to time.
Do tell.. what third faction.?
Guess I will have to dig up something on the 'net just to prove this. Yay. I was around while WAR was in Dev. I was around when they said it would have 3 factions. I don't know shit about GW, the IP it was based on. I just know what was planned for the MMORPG itself.
I remember when they said it would release with only 2 factions instead.
EDIT: My best inquiries were met with Error 404 pages. So, in essence, I don't care if you believe me or not. I know what I know.
Well, I DO know about GW, and GW was never going to allow 3 factions, not with their IP. Again they sank too much money into pushing the Order vs Destruction setup. So, sure, EA and Mythic may have talked about it to hype and got guys like you excited over it, but it was never going to happen anyway. Not with GW's IP.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
One of the biggest problems with WAR was very simple. They were not given the development time to create 3 factions as was originally intended with that title. They had to rush it and push it out the door with 2 factions.
Personally I don't support a RvR only game. But the fact is (in my mind), WAR was never given the time and resources it needed to succeed.
What third faction...?
Hate to break it to you but the Warhammer universe is very much a two faction universe (when we talk about any sort of cooperation happening) Order vs Chaos (later called destruction) unless you class the more or less un-aligned races such as Woodelves, Skaven, Lizardmen and Ogers as a faction.. but they were not exactly working together.. they were as stated pretty much unaligned and fought on their own terms for what ever goal they had.. this goal just happend to align with this or that faction from time to time.
Do tell.. what third faction.?
The only two neutral groups are Ogres and Tomb Kings. Woodevles and Lizardmen are Order and Skaven are Destruction. But yes, there is no third faction and knowing what I know of GW internally they would not create one for an MMO that wasn't already in their lore. That would darn near cause a rebellion amongst their table top fans, which IS their bread and butter and who have been asking for new armies for decades.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I believe what is being misconceived here is prior to grabbing the Warhammer IP Mythic had a game in the early stages of development and most likely planned to continue with their current successful model of 3 realm combat. This was not Imperator and was actually most likely Daoc 2. When they picked up the Warhammer IP GW axed that mechanic because of their lore. Yes we asked for a third faction while testing/development and obviously were never answered nor at any point from my understanding did a third faction exist. Does this mean Mark and the rest of the team didn't want to put it in? Doubtful. I think we can all agree more factions would have only made Warhammer better (not as much as stable servers or other giant design improvements), but I can't see how it would have been worse off.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Originally posted by Purutzil So you are saying his newer title was bad, but his older one was good so it means its going to be good? If so, then obviously all the sonic games I should be hyped out to come out since all the old Sonic titles were so amazing that the next new one obviously has to be good!
No I could go on and on, it's a trend in his design, he does what he wants and so be it, but this new "I listen" thing I find pretty funny. Sorry I don't buy it, he wouldn't listen in daoc and war, so whats to change? Oh he needs your money up front. Hey, all the best to you guys if this goes well, but I wouldn't be suprised to have some of you coming back months down the road saying, "we have heard nothing or been part of nothing for months now".
I could be wrong, but you know that old saying, once a ....
I wasn't there to see what happened with WAR, but from what feedback i got he didn't have enough power on the game to actually change it in function of what the players said. So he was listening but couldn't do anything.
And for the moment he really is listening. And he promised the backers would get to choose one of the races for each realm. So it seems like he won't stop once KS is over.
Originally posted by Coman I am not concerned. I just do not feel like paying money to a guy who most likely could fund this project himself and fail and still have enough money to enjoy his life...or maybe In my mind he has more money then he really has, but I am almost sure the EA deal left him with a good amount of money on his bank.
Maybe they can do the game themself. But what do we care?
Just imagine if somebody comes and tells you "I can make a great game for you that you'll really like, but i don't want to use my own money to do it, so give me your money and i'll do it". What is the problem with that? How is it different from somebody telling you "Here is a great game, give me money and i give it to you"? Will you stop buying any game because the big company selling them already have tons of money?
And we don't even know if MJ can afford to fund this himself. Plus, he already said he wouldn't get any money from that KS, and he is giving $2M, meaning he won't get a cent untill they sell the first boxes and subs.
I don't get that mentality of "I will throw away any fun i could have if it means i'll prevent somebody else to have more money than me".
There isn't much debate about this in my opinion. MJ now has full control over what happens with this game. Tied to that, is the fact everything is discussed with the backers of this new game. Ideas are talked about at length and the pros and cons are weighed. A lot of people have wanted a game like this for a while now: tri-realm, focused on pvp/rvr, not much pve, gear not being a deciding factor for every battle...the list goes on and on. This game will be what real mmo's used to be years ago. A living, breathing world for you to immerse yourself in completely. A lot of people haven't felt that way in game since classic WOW or DAoC in its heyday.
Everyone involved seems to know what needs to be done to make this game great. That is what is most impressive in my opinion. Three realms for great rvr and getting a high framerate even on your average PC is a must for CSE developers as well as the backers. Having DAoC as an outline for combat, with no parent company forcing your hand, this game in my opinion cannot and will not fail.
Comments
Well we have to agree to disagree then.
It is worth to point out in relation CU tho, it is very often that plans have to be changed for one reason ot the other..
This will happen to Camelot too... And it will be a bloody hilarious outrage here. Mostly because we the players have been let in so very early in the development process.
This have been a good conversation
Interesting. My recollection of WAR seems quite different from some others. Was in beta 1 from very early on. This is what I recall:-
There was never a third faction. Testers asked for it, the answer always was the lore and GW didn't allow it.
From what I remember, Open world PvP was in from the beginning. There wasn't much to do initially, in beta 1 we saw some objectives added (capture the flag type stuff), but testers were crying out for keep warfare, so around November 2007, Mythic shut down beta for around a month while they went back to the drawing board and came up with pretty much what your playing today.
I also followed WAR from its early stages and have never heard of them planning on having a third Realm in it.
The new sonic titles are not made by the same people as the originals...
horrible analogy.
Bottom line, the game he had the MOST involvement in - DAoC, was one of the best MMORPGs of all time.
The game where he was mostly put in charge of money, and had to answer to Electronic Arts (who has killed EnB, Sims Online, WAR, and SWTOR) was his weakest entry.
I blame EA more than I blame Jacobs.
11 factions would've been crazy but definitely closer to the Warhammer IP. I would've enjoyed that.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
Well, I DO know about GW, and GW was never going to allow 3 factions, not with their IP. Again they sank too much money into pushing the Order vs Destruction setup. So, sure, EA and Mythic may have talked about it to hype and got guys like you excited over it, but it was never going to happen anyway. Not with GW's IP.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
The only two neutral groups are Ogres and Tomb Kings. Woodevles and Lizardmen are Order and Skaven are Destruction. But yes, there is no third faction and knowing what I know of GW internally they would not create one for an MMO that wasn't already in their lore. That would darn near cause a rebellion amongst their table top fans, which IS their bread and butter and who have been asking for new armies for decades.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
I wasn't there to see what happened with WAR, but from what feedback i got he didn't have enough power on the game to actually change it in function of what the players said. So he was listening but couldn't do anything.
And for the moment he really is listening. And he promised the backers would get to choose one of the races for each realm. So it seems like he won't stop once KS is over.
Maybe they can do the game themself. But what do we care?
Just imagine if somebody comes and tells you "I can make a great game for you that you'll really like, but i don't want to use my own money to do it, so give me your money and i'll do it". What is the problem with that? How is it different from somebody telling you "Here is a great game, give me money and i give it to you"? Will you stop buying any game because the big company selling them already have tons of money?
And we don't even know if MJ can afford to fund this himself. Plus, he already said he wouldn't get any money from that KS, and he is giving $2M, meaning he won't get a cent untill they sell the first boxes and subs.
I don't get that mentality of "I will throw away any fun i could have if it means i'll prevent somebody else to have more money than me".
There isn't much debate about this in my opinion. MJ now has full control over what happens with this game. Tied to that, is the fact everything is discussed with the backers of this new game. Ideas are talked about at length and the pros and cons are weighed. A lot of people have wanted a game like this for a while now: tri-realm, focused on pvp/rvr, not much pve, gear not being a deciding factor for every battle...the list goes on and on. This game will be what real mmo's used to be years ago. A living, breathing world for you to immerse yourself in completely. A lot of people haven't felt that way in game since classic WOW or DAoC in its heyday.
Everyone involved seems to know what needs to be done to make this game great. That is what is most impressive in my opinion. Three realms for great rvr and getting a high framerate even on your average PC is a must for CSE developers as well as the backers. Having DAoC as an outline for combat, with no parent company forcing your hand, this game in my opinion cannot and will not fail.