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Need your opinion... AIMed based abilities?
NegativeX
Member Posts: 100
Wanted to get a general concensus as to what you all thought about AIMed based abilities?
Not every ability, just a select few, to where you can enter a seperate, free AIM mode. Or perhaps certain abilities that can be both? But you receive additional benefits to landing a spell, or shot in free AIM mode.
Thoughts?
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Comments
meh no
Archers complain for this type of thing, if they want it give it to them, but won't play an archer if I have to. In fast paced pvp game free aim archers going to get tore up.
edit for clarity.
Free aim is a type of target system you can do in an mmo (see darkfall), however mix and matching can and possibly will make balancing an even more headache that it already will with non mirrored classes.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I'd prefer not to have any reticle-targeting. Based on a recent thread here, the main issue people had with archers and targetting seemed to be with auto-firing bow shots not target lock itself. That concern can easily be eliminated by not having auto-firing bow shots rather than by having a different aiming system for archers. (DAOC didn't have auto-fire archery, so it's hardly necessary for an RvR MMO.) If the game absolutely must have reticle-aiming for archers and magic bolt casters, then it would definitely have to give a powerful damage bonus for those abilities in compensation. I'd rather just keep things simple and let all ranged abilities be performed using target locking.
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I think a mixture of ability types could work.
I would reserve this AIM-based attack for a few very-long range weapons/spells. Things like an elite sniper attack. Maybe in this AIM mode, you could increase your range by 25% and that could be used in special circumstances to pull/attack at a range of relative safety. Or, it could simply provide some modifier (+ To Hit, - To Dodge) when a skill is aimed.
But, as a rule, I think this would make it hard on ranged classes if the primary combat moves require aiming. However, some really prefer this. We shall see.
I honestly don't think these types of systems work when ....
1) You have to be standing still to cast
2) casting isn't instant EVER
3) casts can be interuptted
I really have no idea with those 3 things confirmed why ANYONE would ever want a free aim system implimented, if you impliment it just for long range its just a "fluff" ability with no purpose.
Easy fix to archers, is make them have seperate buttons they have to click to load bow ( could have multiple options for diff bows), pull back bow, and multiple slots for pulling back requiring longer time periods, and button to release.
I also think archers shouldn't be interupted by spells or attacks, that's what makes them more like mages.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
You can't really do both. A game is either tab target or it uses some sort of action combat free targeting system. Games that have claimed to do both really don't. Adding on a reticule to a game that is at it's core a tab target game, is still tab target. They'll have to make a decision on which way to go and stick with it because from an overall game design perspective, you can't mix and match. From basic target mechanics, to class abilities, mob design, character and race design, etc. - all of that needs to be designed with the base combat system in mind.
Agreed. Aiming as a primary mechanism is not the best fit for ranged classes in CU. However, this fluff does add variety into the mix, too. Too many MMOs fall back to 1-2-3-4-Tab-1-2-3-4 combat that can get boring. I bet there are folks who would really enjoy an extra-long ranged sniper attack, if only to mix things up under special circumstances.
From things i've read MJ saying, it will be more like a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12......etc.
Personally my feeling is most people that are looking for this game ( the niche ) community don't get bored of 1-2-3-4 button pressing as long as the combat they're doing and the large battles are done right.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Most games since DaoC have both systems. Unless I'm not understanding the topic correctly. GTAE spells instantly come to mind. Siege weopons also come to mind.
I think having both systems could work and could be fun if done right. For example give archers aim abilities so they pley more like a FPS character, but let the casters still do tab targeting. There are definately some balance issues with that proposal but I think it could work.
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IF an aimed FPS attack is included, it absolutely should not require the player to enter a different screen like using seige equipment in WAR does.
Personally, I think the way pre-TOA DAoC worked for archers was and still is the way to go. Have a knock-draw-aim-fire system with different draw times for different types of shots and make the targetting tabbed at the aim step. I also hope there will b differnt arrows for different armor types, etc. That made the class so much more interesting to play.
As for interrupts, it would be cool if for archers when they get hit there would be a chance of releasing their arrow depending on where in the sequence they are. If an accidental release occurs it might just go and hit the intended target, but maybe it hits something, or someone, else.
It makes more sense for mages to have hard interrupts if a spell must be completed for it to work, but if it builds power over the casting time, then maybe they could have a misfire mechanic as well.
Generally though, I'd rather not have a FPS reticle aiming system, especially for archers since only the closest shots would fly straight to the target. Although that could be fixed by adding in an angling requirement to the targeting system that determines height at range. That might be cool, but you'd almost never actually get a hit in an MMO if it were extremely realistic because people move around way faster than your arrow would reach them, so you'd be basically spamming guesses.
Lawt
For a mmorpg i'd much prefer tab targetting than reticule one. if it was more an FPS of course , but not for CU.
There is so many fps outthere, lets leave the reticule aiming to those, give me an oldschool targeting when it comes to a mmorpg and i'm happy
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I completelyh disagree.
Having to stand still to attack makes perfect sense. You get to a good attackign ground, take aim and attack. Firing a bow is not like firing a gun. Not that one is goign to hit something accurately while running and firing a gun.
But firing a gun is a lot more instant than placying your arrow, pulling back the drawstring, aiming and firing. If you get hit you should be interrupted.
Having said that, because or the limitations, the damage, if you do hit, should be significant. it's a tradeoff.
I'm all for aiming and firing with bow weapons and I'm all for having to make decisions on whether or not you should attack or find a better place for an attack.
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i played couple games(can't think of names of top of my head) that had a system for bows that allowed you to run and shoot but greatly reduced damage/accuracy.. think that would be a great system for this game
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That would work.
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I tried it aswell in PS2, and i didn't like it myself. I know skill should matter, but thats not skill thats motorcontrol which imho shouldn't matter as much in a MMO.
But i think it should matter wether you have line of sight or fire to your target. For example if you fire an arrow at player A, and another hostile target B moves between it and its intended target the arrow should hit B not fly through him to hit A. That way things like position, high ground etc will mater more, i.e. make the game more tactical instead of more twitchy.
Also i think the whole idea of going with realistic mechanics unless it hurts gameplay is a good idea. For example the arrow hitting an unintended hostile due to movement would be good, the same arrow hitting an unintended friendly target would only lead to griefing and hurt realmpride.
I've played competitive FPS shooters (CAL) in the past and of course reticule targeting drives those games and matches perfectly. In mmos however I simply hate them if the entire system is based upon it. In a mmo, no matter how many abilities you have or what they are, they all seem to become the same ... you aim ... you click. This becomes extremely repetitive and boring fast.
I have played some hybrid games where the reticule was more of a backup and a soft ability to target who you want but still allowing Tab targeting for specific powers that do not require aiming. The reticule more or less is an additional tab tool when it comes to traditional mmo abilities. The benefit to this is you can possibly also throw in some pure aiming abilities seamlessly. The point is to add variety and tactics to the gameplay without entirely removing the benefits of alternative systems.
Some players may hate tab targeting but it allows for the creation of certain abilities that have unique properties and tactics (i.e. longer cast times and spell affects, different los restrictions, and general feel of ability implementation). Debating which system is better is a moot point if you can incorporate both systems together or perhaps some other unique deployment.
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Mark said they didn't want archers to be just mages with bows tab-targeting stuff, and hinted they might have some kind of different aiming mechanic for them.
He's also said they aren't looking at doing 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, -1-2-3 etc. rotation based gameplay since there's a ton of games already doing that.
He was very specific about these.
Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.
All IMO, of course.
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Just because it's a stat driven game that doesn't mean they need to have an accuracy stat, nor do they need even a block or evasion stat. I've played games that were very gear and stat heavy but that were free targeting action combat games. They just don't have those few stats because they don't need them, but there are a ton of other stats in MMO's that you can have so that doesn't really affect the targeting system either way I think.
What makes free targeting games more skill based IMO is that not only do you have the same skill based choices a tab target game has like you mention, but on top of that you also have to aim properly, position properly, dodge/block properly. It adds an entirely different layer of challenge onto combat and makes it that much more fun. It's a more evolved way of doing combat from tab targeting.
Edit: Holy shit why in the hell does this forum not have a spell check....
So you want to take RvR battles with hundreds of players participating and make it even more complicated for ... why? Why do we need a entirely different layer of challenge on top?
Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?
My issue is that if you have free targeting you need to make each shot much more powerful because you have to assume some shots will miss even for a good player. Also you would completely ruin the class for players that are just not very good at FPS games. I backed a MMO with a focus on RvR, not planetside: arthurian edition.
Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.
Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.