How will the economy work?

Tumblebutz · May 2013

With no "loot" drops, how will the economy work? How will you pay crafters for their wares? And what will crafters have to purchase with their amassed wealth?

Will there be a currency? If so, from where will it come?

Edany · May 2013

I think this was possibly the most botched explanation of the game's features that CSE doled out during the last 60 days.

'No PvE.'. What they should have said, and went on to half-ass clarify was 'No leveling or gear drops via PvE'.

There is going to have to be some form of currency, which will most likely drop from players killed in RvR. There will be no magic armor or weapons, nothing to replace what a crafter can create for you. There will be materials that drop from PvE mobs, but they probably won't be anywhere near as good as the resources we'll have to fight over, or even what can drop from a dead enemy.

As for paying crafters for their wares, well, in a totally player driven economy, payment can come in many many forms now, can't it?

Perhaps you set up trade negotiations, materials for wares, where the crafter gets a little bit more in materials than it will take for him to make your item, so he can build up a supply and a reputation.

Perhaps you offer your protection services in trade for some gear so he can go out to gather.

Maybe you just offer outright coin and buy his stuff from his shop.

Maybe you have a blueprint that came from the Depths that he's been itching to get his hands on, and you trade some item of worth for a few pieces here and there.

Maybe you scam it off of him because you're an ass.

Maybe he scams you.

Maybe he has an errand he needs you to do, to deliver him or some items to a zone held by his guild mates and they're too busy defending to play pack mule.

The possibilities are really open and will be determined at the macro level by the realm's trends, and at the micro level by each player individually.

Mkilbride · May 2013

Actually, MJ said "No PvE progression" which is what most players didn't understand, but he actually explained it properly.

He just forgot people are idjits.

professornomos · May 2013

Originally posted by Mkilbride
Actually, MJ said "No PvE progression" which is what most players didn't understand, but he actually explained it properly.

He just forgot people are idjits.

True but he always demured when in came to non-progression content, especially on what non-crafters will be doing in the game. He repeatedly noted that there will be no drops. You can skin, salvage and other things off of NPCs but you wont get drops.

Even in EvE, the economy is based in no small part on the PvE quests. As much as he said No "PvE progression" I am pretty sure there will have to be PvE activities.

Speely · May 2013

Everything makes sense to me except the question "where does currency come from?"

Lawtoween · May 2013

In one of the videos MJ did say that players will drop gold and that the gold will not come from the player's own funds. I think the question was actually concerned about players being "lootable," which he said they will not be. I'm not sure if he means for that to include gatherable materials, or just gold and equipment. If mats cannot be lost, then attacking caravans will have far less meaning, and crafters will not need escorts.

Speely · May 2013

I am just unsure how much I trust gold coming from thin air, and I am also unsure how much currency is going to matter to crafters. After they mine resources, they could ostensibly require gold to actually produce their creations, but why?

I am perhaps missing the purpose of currency in this game at all... but without it, how do combatants contract crafters, and why would crafters want to be contracted?

Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold.

I am not hating or harping. I am genuinely confused as to how this will work within the framework of a player-driven economy.

Lawtoween · May 2013

Originally posted by PerfArt
I am just unsure how much I trust gold coming from thin air, and I am also unsure how much currency is going to matter to crafters. After they mine resources, they could ostensibly require gold to actually produce their creations, but why?

I am perhaps missing the purpose of currency in this game at all... but without it, how do combatants contract crafters, and why would crafters want to be contracted?

Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold.

I am not hating or harping. I am genuinely confused as to how this will work within the framework of a player-driven economy.

I'm with you on the whole "money from the sky" implementation. I would much rather see a limited amount of gold in the game that has to be mined, minted, and distributed. I think we've both posted on a thread with that very theme a while back.

OTOH, why should money in the game be any different than money in the real world? After all, the Fed can just say, "Bank X, you have 1,000,000,000 more dollars on deposit today." And they do it three times a day, every day until they decide it is unnecessary. At least players will have to kill another player to get the gold from nowhere. And what other activity has more value in an RvR game? Still, I would prefer it to be a finite amount.

Tumblebutz · May 2013

Originally posted by PerfArt
I am just unsure how much I trust gold coming from thin air, and I am also unsure how much currency is going to matter to crafters. After they mine resources, they could ostensibly require gold to actually produce their creations, but why?

I am perhaps missing the purpose of currency in this game at all... but without it, how do combatants contract crafters, and why would crafters want to be contracted?

Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold.

I am not hating or harping. I am genuinely confused as to how this will work within the framework of a player-driven economy.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Give this man a cigar! Those are the questions I'm anxious to be answered.

And, if coin drops from RvR kills, which you then pay to crafters to make your stuff... what do the crafters spend the coin on? It's a bit of a conundrum.

Speely · May 2013

Fair point, Law. I think the difference is that in a game, this subject potentially affects the workings of the game more given the smaller amount of variables said game contains that real life.

The minting gold idea is serviceable, but seems hard to implement in a balanced fashioned. As I am not an adept economist, I am kind of at a loss trying to figure this out.

Speely · May 2013

@Tumble: exactly! Why would crafters need currency? It's a bit of a conundrum indeed.

winter · May 2013

Originally posted by PerfArt
I am just unsure how much I trust gold coming from thin air, and I am also unsure how much currency is going to matter to crafters. After they mine resources, they could ostensibly require gold to actually produce their creations, but why?

I am perhaps missing the purpose of currency in this game at all... but without it, how do combatants contract crafters, and why would crafters want to be contracted?

Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold.

I am not hating or harping. I am genuinely confused as to how this will work within the framework of a player-driven economy.

Seriously a good question, and it doesn't seem it will work from what we currently know. There are no NPC merchants and what good is coin drop from player kills. Have a slow day and only 2 kill players your poor, next day you have off and spend 12 hours killing players and your super rich. this is a recipe for unbalanced inflationary econemy.

The only way i can see it working with the information we currently have is a barter system of resources for goods or other resoures. ie I'll trade you 3 ore rocks for you cabbage and rock salt..

As always the Devil is in the Details

Searias · May 2013

Originally posted by PerfArt
I am just unsure how much I trust gold coming from thin air, and I am also unsure how much currency is going to matter to crafters. After they mine resources, they could ostensibly require gold to actually produce their creations, but why?

I am perhaps missing the purpose of currency in this game at all... but without it, how do combatants contract crafters, and why would crafters want to be contracted?

Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold.

I am not hating or harping. I am genuinely confused as to how this will work within the framework of a player-driven economy.

When you said "Gold drops from players presents an obvious problem: potentially infinite gold." How is that different from any other MMO out there? Because, even games with PVE content there are mobs that drop gold and wouldn't that also mean unlimited gold based on your opinion?

From my understanding Crafters will probably buy stuff from other crafters or other player run stores for materials and stuff that they were not able to acquire themselves. And I am sure they will have other forms of money sink in the game as well.

Speely · May 2013

Searias:

Fair enough. However, this mmo, unlike most others, is supposed to have an entirely player-driven economy. The role of currency in said economy becomes harder to implement thusly. There are no npc vendors outside of the FP shop, and those have nothing to do with in-game currency.

I get your point about buying from other crafters, and that is a fair one. But at the end of the day, when a crafter is sitting on a pile of gold coming from rvr kills, what are they gaining from that pile? Moreover, how do you justify funny money from rvr kills in an economy that is player-driven?

Hoping for a very creative solution to this

PRX_sklurb · May 2013

Originally posted by Tumblebutz
With no "loot" drops, how will the economy work? How will you pay crafters for their wares? And what will crafters have to purchase with their amassed wealth?

Will there be a currency? If so, from where will it come?

I keep having memories of Asheron's Call old portal subway where people gathered together and formed their own player marketplace (they now have a a designated portal hub area/marketplace currently). I LOVED the AC style of crafting and trading....setting up places to meet, hopping portals to meet each other. It was kinda exciting to see someone run up to you with payment. Much more social and fun than finding an item in your mail without bothering to even read the name of the sender. Heck, sometimes you would just stand around and shoot the sh!t for a little bit and get to know people. More grouping happens that way! ;D

Edany · May 2013

I don't recall MJ ever saying that there would be no NPC Vendors...

I think they will be there for sure. Perhaps you can 'purchase' extra NPCs to guard your stuff, there will most likely be consumables vendors, there may even be NPCs that sell armor / weapons, etc., but you would still want to go the crafter route if at all possible.

There may be NPC vendors for crafters that sell base-line components or materials if they're in a pinch. There will most certainly be vendors in the Inns. Owners of the Inns will not directly see profits for their character, but the Inn itself will be almost like its own character, where you would potentially re-invest the Inn profits gained from players purchasing items from the NPC vendors there back into the Inn.

So lets say you need a Crafter to make you a bright shiny sword..

First, you're both probably gonna start out as broke asses in generic armor. You'll run out together to try to harvest some materials. Noobs from Team B and Team C are also striking out to begin the gathering process.

People are gonna die, and the winners will be looting some coin from their enemy's bodies. Cool! They still need to harvest / mine resources. They trek on and the crafter does his thing while Noob player 1 from Team A guards him, or maybe kills some NPC mobs for the Crafter to Skin or Gather from in some other way.

After gathering what they need, they take their bounty back to the safe zone.

Noob player 1 from Team A is gonna hit the Inn to grab a drink or two (consumable) with his hard earned money while Crafter Noob from Team A is gonna go purchase whatever reagent (money sink) he *may* need to go with the materials gathered to make that shiny sword.

Hopefully Noob player 1 hasn't blown ALL of his money from the Inn, because Crafter Noob may still want a % fee for crafting the weapons. Or maybe he wants more material in trade (leaving Noob player 1 with some extra coin to blow on possible gambling at the Inn or another piece of armor).

There will be gear degradation over time, weapon degradation too. So they'll need to wash / rinse and repeat this cycle. The Crafter will eventually want better gear for his or herself as well, the better to survive the Depths later on. Right? But how is he gonna get there without a few strong mercenaries to guide him in?

Maybe he spends his coin on protection.

There will be generic blue-prints for sale, then there will be the blue-prints that are player created. An uninspired crafter may find this amazing blueprint that he just has to have. That will require some serious fund-raising on his part. He's going to need every piece of gold he can get for it, right?

So there will be ways of dumping money for sure.

Tamanous · May 2013

Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.

I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand. Until I see more of their system though I cannot see how they can dodge traditional currency entirely. Themepark mmos create artificial money sinks to keep you poor but a player driven economy still often requires currency but the value of that currency is directly dictated by the crafting economy. It's incredibly difficult to walk up to an NPC bartender and trade them a stack of wood for a beer.

Traditional currency has it's place but should have it's value based upon the player driven economy and not artificial money sinks.

azzamasin · May 2013

Originally posted by Edany
I think this was possibly the most botched explanation of the game's features that CSE doled out during the last 60 days.

'No PvE.'. What they should have said, and went on to half-ass clarify was 'No leveling or gear drops via PvE'.

That is in essence what PvE is!!!!! To not have a leveling system and a loot system associated with PvE and monsters/mobs is a huge mistake.

Tamanous · May 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Edany
I think this was possibly the most botched explanation of the game's features that CSE doled out during the last 60 days.

'No PvE.'. What they should have said, and went on to half-ass clarify was 'No leveling or gear drops via PvE'.

That is in essence what PvE is!!!!! To not have a leveling system and a loot system associated with PvE and monsters/mobs is a huge mistake.

... in a PvE game.

CU will be a RvR sandbox game. I am finding the mistake here really is based upon mistaking CU for what it isn't.

I know MJ doesn't hold the trademark for RvR anymore but perhaps he can trademark RvRvE and stop this ongoing confusion.

azzamasin · May 2013

Originally posted by Tamanous
Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.

I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand.

Asheron's Call economny was based on a Loot economy, rather it be Pyreal Motes, Shards & Fragments in the early days then to Major's and Epics in the latter days.

Still told, the Crafting in AC was solly based on the ability to augment/enchant or Tinker loot dropped items and at no point was it ever possible to craft an armor piece or weapon, only augment them. Beautiful system that ESO is reinstituting right down to the dynamic loot differentiation on gear where no 2 "like" items will have the same stats. Enjoy CU where the economy is based on nothing and any lasting appeal to do find something worthwhile is destroyed with the sense that you cna jsut hire someone to craft it. Borring!

Tamanous · May 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.

I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand.

Asheron's Call economny was based on a Loot economy, rather it be Pyreal Motes, Shards & Fragments in the early days then to Major's and Epics in the latter days.

Still told, the Crafting in AC was solly based on the ability to augment/enchant or Tinker loot dropped items and at no point was it ever possible to craft an armor piece or weapon, only augment them. Beautiful system that ESO is reinstituting right down to the dynamic loot differentiation on gear where no 2 "like" items will have the same stats. Enjoy CU where the economy is based on nothing and any lasting appeal to do find something worthwhile is destroyed with the sense that you cna jsut hire someone to craft it. Borring!

Ah well we now know why you are here then. Thanks for your opinion. You can now move along to other game boards you actually support. Your omniscient precognition for games not yet even released is impressive but we'll just proceed into the gaming abyss that is CU by ourselves now.

Thankyous!

Edany · May 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.

I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand.

Asheron's Call economny was based on a Loot economy, rather it be Pyreal Motes, Shards & Fragments in the early days then to Major's and Epics in the latter days.

Still told, the Crafting in AC was solly based on the ability to augment/enchant or Tinker loot dropped items and at no point was it ever possible to craft an armor piece or weapon, only augment them. Beautiful system that ESO is reinstituting right down to the dynamic loot differentiation on gear where no 2 "like" items will have the same stats. Enjoy CU where the economy is based on nothing and any lasting appeal to do find something worthwhile is destroyed with the sense that you cna jsut hire someone to craft it. Borring!

Ahhhh yes, the good old 'dynamic loot differentiation' routine, where tanks get lovely items with +Intelligence stats based on some Loot RNG table - a cool enough item in itself, that no other mage really wants to buy. Better yet, some totally awesome item that will sell for an over-inflated price that nobody else will ever be able to re-create because it was completely dependent on same said RNG. <insert a twirl of my finger in the air>

Whoop-de-do. I'm happy for you that some totally random and useless, or potentially op, RNG items excite you, but I'm hoping for a little bit more from CSE here.

Other than stopping by to concern troll, I don't see at all where you think that the CU economy will be based on 'nothing'. People will need blueprints to build. Those will have to be purchased or created. They will need them to build seige weapons, forts, walls, roads, houses, and any other number of creative structures.

This doesn't even factor in armor, weapons, consumables, fluff, housing items, on and on and on...

So what if I have to hire a crafter to make it? Thank God! That means I don't have to spend hours and hours grinding for the hope that some piece of gear or weapon that I want or need drops, and I don't have to spend time praying to the MMO RNG Gods that I roll high enough to even win the said item. I can just help a crafter farm the materials and be done with it, freeing up my time to kill players such as yourself, standing around in the open, farming mobs hoping for that shiny ring.

In DAoC, having a crafter make an MP piece of gear, and then finding an Enchanter to augment it with the stats I chose to have put on it didn't take any sense of 'accomplishment' away from me, I was thrilled to get it, and even more thrilled that I didn't have to grind away at crafting since some other poor bastard chose to do that for me. All that much faster to get out into the action - aka RvR and NOT PvE which you seem to love.

PvE is obviously your thing. That's awesome, for you. There are countless PvE games for you to choose from out there and we wish you the best of luck -----> over there ---------------> with the PvE games in the PvE game forums.

Thanks for stopping by to voice your concerns though.

professornomos · May 2013

Originally posted by Edany
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.

I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand.

Asheron's Call economny was based on a Loot economy, rather it be Pyreal Motes, Shards & Fragments in the early days then to Major's and Epics in the latter days.

Still told, the Crafting in AC was solly based on the ability to augment/enchant or Tinker loot dropped items and at no point was it ever possible to craft an armor piece or weapon, only augment them. Beautiful system that ESO is reinstituting right down to the dynamic loot differentiation on gear where no 2 "like" items will have the same stats. Enjoy CU where the economy is based on nothing and any lasting appeal to do find something worthwhile is destroyed with the sense that you cna jsut hire someone to craft it. Borring!

Ahhhh yes, the good old 'dynamic loot differentiation' routine, where tanks get lovely items with +Intelligence stats based on some Loot RNG table - a cool enough item in itself, that no other mage really wants to buy. Better yet, some totally awesome item that will sell for an over-inflated price that nobody else will ever be able to re-create because it was completely dependent on same said RNG.

Whoop-de-do. I'm happy for you that some totally random and useless, or potentially op, RNG items excite you, but I'm hoping for a little bit more from CSE here.

Other than stopping by to concern troll, I don't see at all where you think that the CU economy will be based on 'nothing'. People will need blueprints to build. Those will have to be purchased or created. They will need them to build seige weapons, forts, walls, roads, houses, and any other number of creative structures.

This doesn't even factor in armor, weapons, consumables, fluff, housing items, on and on and on...

So what if I have to hire a crafter to make it? Thank God! That means I don't have to spend hours and hours grinding for the hope that some piece of gear or weapon that I want or need drops, and I don't have to spend time praying to the MMO RNG Gods that I roll high enough to even win the said item. I can just help a crafter farm the materials and be done with it, freeing up my time to kill players such as yourself, standing around in the open, farming mobs hoping for that shiny ring.

In DAoC, having a crafter make an MP piece of gear, and then finding an Enchanter to augment it with the stats I chose to have put on it didn't take any sense of 'accomplishment' away from me, I was thrilled to get it, and even more thrilled that I didn't have to grind away at crafting since some other poor bastard chose to do that for me. All that much faster to get out into the action - aka RvR and NOT PvE which you seem to love.

PvE is obviously your thing. That's awesome, for you. There are countless PvE games for you to choose from out there and we wish you the best of luck -----> over there ---------------> with the PvE games in the PvE game forums.

Thanks for stopping by to voice your concerns though.

Great series of posts in this thread Edany

zekuel · May 2013

Infinite gold means we need to pay taxes. Also there will be npc builders from what a recall they just won't be as good as player builders. As for crafters needing gold I would assume there are costs for crafting as well and many will play alts also. Crafting bot FTW. Rez sick will cost money too I would think. I believe MJ said that there would/could be a market to buy and sell materials but not for items. As far as just being a crafter with no alts I assume you will spend your money doing things you like to do being that you are just playing for that. That would include buying supplies for building too. Since crafters can not fight my assumption would be that they would use the market more after they have established funds and when the market as established reasonable resources. Of course there is a lot of assumptions here.

Edany · May 2013

Originally posted by professornomos

Great series of posts in this thread Edany

Thank you!!

I am pretty excited for the potential economy that this game *could* have, and most of the ideas I've been tossing about are nothing more than possibilities, but they're possibilities that I'll be pretty vocal about in testing.

I see a lot of concerns over the economy, when a player based economy tends to drive itself. Augmented by trivial money sinks in the form of NPC vendors spread about here and there, the possibilities are pretty limitless and its one of the least of my concerns in the game. Sure there will be items that cost a small fortune, but there will be plenty of other things that don't and a wise player can find all sorts of ways to either make themselves filthy rich or spend themselves into virtual poverty and debt.

The game economy for me falls far behind class balance, combat mechanics, implementation of CD, ironing out bugs, animations, etc etc.

Lawtoween · May 2013

Not only has MJ not said there will be no NPC vendors, I believe he has said there WILL be. They just won't be selling items that a crafter could not make something far better than. As for money sinks, on another board someone once mentioned to me that plots will have to be maintained. I think we can assume this will be in the form of currency, although it may be in the form of resources.

Incidentally, a barter system will eventually determine a currency. A currency is, after all, only the commodity that everyone accepts in exchange for everything else because it is portable, easily quantified, and difficult to counterfeit. Obviously, counterfeiting is not an issue in a game (although you could almost call loot drops a method of counterfeiting, and I would say gold farming IS the same as counterfeiting), so our currency only needs to be portable and easily quantified. Portability may or may not be an issue in the game. If things have weight, then it will be, unless CSE implements a currency and says it has no weight, then their currency wil have a HUGE advantage over any commodity. If they choose not to create an in game currency (which I'm pretty sure MJ has said they will, but maybe if the backers talk him out of it...) then the commodity that becomes the currency will have to be highly valueable per unit of weight. By easily quantified I mean two things. First, it can be measured. Again, in a game this is really a non-issue, but for theorycrafting I have to point it out. Whether it be by weight (as in the case of gold) or some other unit, you have to be able to know how much of it you have to exchange for the things you want. The second part of being quantifiable is that it can be easily made into equal units (in the real world we would call these coins), the smaller the better.

As has been mentioned several times, loot drops are likely to cause inflation, because money sinks can not be so burdensome as to cause everyoe to become broke. Balancing that is impossible, because everyone will earn money at a different rate so the sink would have to be tied with the way you earn money. MJ has said there will be no loss from looting, so he has eliminated the sink tied to the RvR way of earning money (you gain gold from killing, but do not lose it from dying). Sure there will be item deterioration, but that has to balance the gathering of resources, so it can't be used as a money sink, since it is a resource sink. Also, the aforementioned plot maintenance. Presumably that will be time based. Something that cannot be easily balanced between casual (low hour per week) players and hard core players. Thus it will be low compared to the potential to gather money, and not serve that particular purpose (although it will serve the purpose of preventing abandoned buildings from making the landscape ugly).

I'll have to think a bit more on this to offer a better solution than a finite amount of gold tied to killing and dying.

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