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Perma-Death done right
TruthXHurts
Member UncommonPosts: 1,555
Been seeing the permadeath posts, and wanted to point out a game that does it very well. If you don't like perma-death then that is fine, and you can play one of the other thousands of games that do not feature this niche game mechanic, but if you are like me and are big on risk vs reward then check out this indie gem www.dark-wind.com
The way they institute permadeath is by making you a gang leader with a few or several gang members that you recruit, and cultivate. Though don't get too attached because eventually they die of old age. I have had some gang members that were seriously disfigured, and crippled which caused them to be less effective in combat. The system actually makes you care about your characters, and do your best to make sure they come back alive.
This isn't a triple A game, but it is very well done, and takes more than a case of Mountain dew and determination to mash 1,2,3,4 all night to get ahead.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Comments
I dunno. In my opinion, things like full loot and permadeath and all of that can be done well, and they have been done well.
The real problem I have with these things nowadays is the rise of griefer culture. These features can work when players have some basic respect for each other and basic respect for the game. Hell, there were tons of griefers in UO alone, to the point where many players played _solely_ to make the life of new players a living Hell. That actually started to kill the game, and that's why they implemented Trammel.
Imo, you only really have fun with features like this present when you're dealing with a small, niche game with a dedicated community behind it. Which often means you're choosing between good production values and high game quality and these features.
But I like the concept you described.
Reminds me of Wizardry. You had a ton of guys, so permadeath wasn't really permadeath. But you sure missed your characters when they died, and you tried hard to keep them alive at all cost. Sometimes your whole party fell apart just lacking that one healer or strong fighter.
DayZ permadeath in a game with no stats lvls or armor just only bagpack and stuff you find like weapons, best free for all permadeath game of all time.
Im btw totally not interested in this kind of game like Dark-wind not my taste of settings.
PS: If you guys start talking about grieving and why those game fail its you who dont understand these games and your not right for this kind of harsh game enviroments.
Grievers are no problem the gamers who let themself grieved and then come to forums whine about it are the problem.
If you play smart and form groups hunt down grievers then you turn the problem to your advantage and grievers become hunted then you understand these games untill then go play instance no risk at all pvp in your pritty themeparks:P
Im btw ANTI my enemy are pk/gankers so you won't misunderstood me thank you:)
Your dead by the griefer already. Perma death remember?
so no way you can just form a group to hunt than down once you are already destroyed and all your progression lost with it while they only grow stronger.
its a flawed design concept that many here on this forum hate to admit.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
It works fine, as long as there isn't a long progression. (Or simply there is no progression at all.) It's the bullshit progression/skills/leveling that make permadeath not work. When you have no "character" to lose, and just your posessions to lose, it works quite well, see EVE online, Perpetuum and any other game with full-loot instead of character deletion.
Losing some form of progress is essential,otherwise death is meaningless, and hence the game is shit. But losing all progress makes people quit the game, largely due to griefers, which due to game mechanics, typically require 0 skill to kill you with due to levels and arbitrary numbers somewhere defining you, instead of skill. (Also most of these kinds of games are RIDDLED with cheats and hacks. See Darkfall, Mortal Online, Salem, etc.)
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
Yea thats why millions of MMO players play Perma-Death games right? /rolls eyes
If it didnt work well for SWG with the force sensitive characters it will not work well for any game that wants more than thousand players. End of story stop trying to tout something that will NEVER be mainstream.
The OP created this thread to discuss perma-death done right and kudos for giving an example. There is already a thread to discuss the merits of perma-death. Please don't hijack the thread....
As for the topic, as much as I hate perma-death and wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole... My suggestions for perma-death done right would be:
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
haha presto!
Millions are playing perma-death mode in D3. Go to diabloprogress.com and take a look. If that is not mainstream, what is?
I think he meant in an MMO. And yes, while I know the term MMO can be applied quite loosely, I think most can agree that D3 is not an MMO...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
D3 is a single player/Multiplayer game not an MMO. Its at best a Lobby based game. That is not WoW, SWTOR, RIFT SWG, UO, FFXI, and the dozens of other MMOs. So keep swinging.
O and FYI Perma-death works in Mario Bros, or other Single/Mutli-player games Just not in MMOs.
D3 is not an MMO .. but close enough. Characters are persistent. There is a AH, crafting. Gameplay is mostly co-op dungeon runs, not unlike LFD dungeons & raids.
nethervoid - Est. '97
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Many dont care there are other thousands games that arent permadeath games, I made a thread asking if they would "allow" a game that is not permadeath but has also permadeath (that is 100% not 99.9999% like the other one) server and from the poll 68% said they wouldnt.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/364518/page/1
On some threads here permadeath haters said they woudlnt like it, even if the killer (the char not real life player) could go to in game jail and spend some time there, well, just see what i said before, even if its another fucking server (that is 100% similar to their own, and so they wouldnt lose some feature permadeath players have) they will complain.
People would complain about it too. Also 1% chance of permadeath would be sort of 100 lifes permadeath, that you can die earlier if you are unlicky or later if you are lucky.
That consequence IS permadeath. Griefers generally want to slant the odds in their favor as much as possible. They need their character to have maxed-out skills and items is one of those things. If they risk LOSING that advantage by picking a bad fight, they'll have to think a lot harder about how they use their character. At the very least they'd have to work a lot harder.
You obviously think that permadeath is a horrible idea, and that's a valid subjective opinion to hold. But your arguments against it are riddled with logical fallacies. Here's what you said and what it implied:
1) The total number of players playing permadeath games is less than the "millions" mark, therefore it is a bad concept.
This assumes that a) a significant number of PD-based designs have been attempted by designers and ignored by the public, b) those PD games that have been made took the concept to it's fullest, and c) having millions of players is an important marker of success.
At the very least, I do not believe that a) or b) are true. There have been few attempts at PD MMO-esque games to date, and some commonly cited ones did not explore the concept very deeply (see below). I would like to think that c) is not true in this day and age with reduced production costs, but reasonable people may disagree.
2) Permadeath for Jedis in SWG was not a success, therefore the idea of permadeath is a bad one.
This assumes that a) the original Jedi design was a failure exclusively because of permadeath b) SWG took the concept of PD to it's fullest with their Jedi design.
I would contest option a), as my understanding was that player dissatisfaction with that design element was also due in part to the limited access (most players couldn't play as Jedi at all), but I'll let experts on the game debate that. b) is certainly not true. Having one type of character only with PD and no others is tantamount to a basketball game where player A has to score 20 to win, but loses as soon as player B makes a single basket. That is a certain kind of game and could maybe work with appropriately weighed power-level imbalances, but it does not well represent the full breadth of permadeath designs that could be attempted, or have been implemented in the game mentioned by the OP
3) People shouldn't tout a game that won't be mainstream.
I just don't agree with this sentiment. Those are the ideas that need touting. We've got advertising departments to do the work for the others.
Or, i can just stay here and air my opinion, which is as valid as yours.
We are quite aware that some are ranting about PD every 3 days here. I don't see why you have the exclusive right of flogging a dead horse.
The only flaw is how people are thinking it should work. They are essentially taking the systems of known games and in their minds just "adding permadeath" on to them as opposed to re-imagining an entire system based on this concept.
There is a paradigm shift that needs to happen but people are either not willing or incapable of making it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Societies need rules and order of law to function.
MMOs are virtual societies.
MMOs have never gotten the rules and order of law right, at least not in terms of games with FFA PvP.
If some MMO were to somehow get the FFA PvP rules and order of law right, you could make a feasibly well designed game with perma-death.
Only way to do that, really, is to remove the disconnect between player action and character action - especially the anonymity of online interaction - which is a big no no.
So it'll never happen.
Perma-death is a terrible idea. It's a griefers paradise no matter what way you do it. Although I wouldn't mind it being made like hardcore characters from diablo. An option that those who choose it are free to take. This way they can put it in every game and the rest of us can play without having to worry about this guy....
nah .. MMOs are entertainment products. Any resemblence to a virtual society is purely coincidental and not a required part.
Bingo
Bullshit. You can stick that "you just don't get it"-card right back into your pocket, mister. And if you ever want to be taken seriously, you'll never try to use it again.
Obviously if a game uses permadeath it needs to be designed for it from the ground up. I doubt many disagree with this. The point is, even if you designed it in such a way, it would be fairly problematic. I, for one, would question its value for all the trouble and financial risks it brings. It is unlikely worth it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky