My real concern when it comes to F2P making more money is that not enough of it is being put back into F2P MMOs. I don't see much sign of this, and as players that's what really should concern us. That's why I feel being told this must be due to personnel bias is barking up the wrong tree. You said before you thought they did plenty of content updates, that just has not been my impression at all.
You worries too much. Even if what you say is true, so what? There are plenty of good games and good entertainment out there. F2P MMOs are not going away for a while, so enjoy them while you can.
When you find no more fun, go to play SP games, indie games, iOS games, or watch tv, movies, anime .....
I am not really concern about entertainment. If history is any guide, the amount of entertainment is always going up. I have less time to consume all the entertain i like.
Heck, if all MMOs cease to exist tomorrow, i doubt i will be sitting around being bored.
There are many details we are not told that lead to those concerns, we laid them out for you before, but they did not give you pause for thought. Issues like B2P being put into the same category as F2P when GW2 is making such a splash in the MMO genre could only distort figures in the favour of F2P.
Couldn't the same be said of WOW?
My real concern when it comes to F2P making more money is that not enough of it is being put back into F2P MMOs. I don't see much sign of this, and as players that's what really should concern us.
Aren't you holding F2P to a different standard than subscription then? You don't question the amount of money going back into your subscription game but you seem comfortable with the assumption that a satisfactory amount is.
The fact that the number of P2P MMO's is declining, I have not sort to deny. It is quite probably the reason P2P is making less money. In fact I have raised concerns about the effect the loss of P2P will have on the industry. No more new F2P MMOs that were P2P a year ago will be on posters lists as examples of great F2P MMO's. Those of you who shout "hurray" when another MMO goes F2P may soon be going silent. We are now in June, Defiance is the only P2P/B2P MMO that I know of that has been launched this year.
I personally have no attachment to a particular business model. If we look at what still has a subscription, it seems that in most cases having a decade of content could have something to do with it - there is simply more for the money in something like UO, WOW or EVE than in an MMO that comes out today.
If there's any truth in that, then it seems that in order for a new sub game to come out and do well, it has to offer 5-10 years of content from the start. IMO, the MMO to pull that off will be looking at a far longer subscription life than every other sub game released in the past five years.
I have said before I do not think the F2P and P2P model will continue to exist in their current forms, they are moving closer together, both of them have already changed. In the future what we now call F2P may be able to attract more funding, which will be a good thing. For now though, I just see lower funding for games which allow free entry and less reinvestment in those types of MMO's. There are exceptions of course, in fact I have mentioned one before Atlantica Online, which does seem to do big updates.
It might be worth it for us to question if the F2P MMOs are getting lower funding than needed to make an MMO or if the people making subscription MMOs are just spending money poorly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
Successful at what, is the question. And making money is the only legitimate answer to that question.
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
Successful at what, is the question. And making money is the only legitimate answer to that question.
Growth. Does the game grow? If they listen to anyone BUT the pvp crowd there is a chance. Sorry pvp'ers I don't mean to hate it's just you all are obsessed with your little corner and you can't look outside your box and you will hurt anyone to get what you want - and usually do... ruin games.
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
Successful at what, is the question. And making money is the only legitimate answer to that question.
Growth. Does the game grow? If they listen to anyone BUT the pvp crowd there is a chance. Sorry pvp'ers I don't mean to hate it's just you all are obsessed with your little corner and you can't look outside your box and you will hurt anyone to get what you want - and usually do... ruin games.
Meh, I don't know... I can grow my restaurant guest list by inviting the homeless in for a free meal of pink-slime burgers but at what cost? From then on, I would be known as the shit-burger joint. Of course if all the restaurants starting doing that... nah, that would never happen...
F2P and cash shops are immersion killers in my opinion. The worst case scenario is the game becomes pay to win. But even if the devs restrain themselves and only sell cosmetic items or sidegrade weapons and armor, it still feels completely ridiculous to purchase these things outside of the game using real money.
I want the game world and real world separated as much as possible while I'm playing.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
None of the converted games are really F2P, they are much more along the lines of Freemium games or very limited and very restrictive F2P. One thing that has become obvious though is that all of the games that have converted have stopped updating as often and release of new content has been much, much slower than it was before the conversions.
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
I'm betting they are much more successful in the short term than the medium or long term. The trend of low amounts of content updates and patches would indicate they aren't making as much money as people think.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone's mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
Well you get to try and play before hand. To each point...
Graphics really? You sure got some crazy games you are playing, a lot of F2P games have good graphics, some even quite spectactular (tera for example) not even many P2P games have stuff like that, heck looking at WoW, the graphics on that would be burned alive if it came out on a F2P game.
Game play on P2P games are like that even. Besides, its stereo typing, one that if you look MMos as a whole, F2P or not taht exists.
Classes is another um.. odd point? Most games i seen actually have a wide assortment, heck some even more then P2P options out there. Not exactly the same but look at say Diablo 3 vs Path of Exile, the potential for different builds and characters is so vast between a B2P and F2P. Many of the F2P classes are just as complex if not more complex then P2P type classes..
*Looks at P2P* Yeah... pretty much same there, if not worst at times. I mean hell, WoW existed since its very first day DOING THIS. Seriously, try listing a feature they put in and you can name a game where it took that idea from.
Highly disagree on this. Not sure if you want to consider Tera "f2p" due to its origins, but the combat in that game is much better then GW2 in its execution and style. Sure, not to everyone's liking I know but its a lot better designed and complex system.
Sorry, but I think when you see F2P you create some illusion to hide the fact F2P games have some really good games now. it should be more about "Why do people accept *such and such* practice" rather then trying to bash at points that can either be used on Pay 2 Play games and in many cases can be false depending on the game.
Personally I can understand why people would go F2P (not P2W, mind you). You can download it if you like the ideas/gameplay it portrays, most tend to be lighter in the graphics/process category, and if I drop 10 dollars in the cash shop, still less than buying a box I may end up disliking. Of course, many people also view these as negatives, and I understand that it may be doing damage to the market, but with all the MMOs coming up to be hopeful for (EQN and FF14: ARR in my opinion), I'm not worried that some companies still understand the value in putting more content and effort into games.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
None of the converted games are really F2P, they are much more along the lines of Freemium games or very limited and very restrictive F2P. One thing that has become obvious though is that all of the games that have converted have stopped updating as often and release of new content has been much, much slower than it was before the conversions.
Do you have any evidence or sources for this? Because the games I'm looking at show the exact same updates and expansions.
EQ2 - one a year before. It went f2p last year, there's been one expansion. So still one a year.
CoH - before it closed had 1 expansion before f2p and one after, and the same updates 2-3 per year, as well as several adventure packs.
lotro - first expansion came after f2p so hard to compare.
EQ - 1-2 expansions per year. Just went f2p last year, and there was the expansion Rain of Fear in November 2012.
TSW - did not have an expansion before, has not had one after. Had a few updates before, had a few updates after.
STO - released feb 2, 2010. f2p on jan 17, 2012. updates before f2p 2 (3 in first year, 1 in 2nd). 2 updates after, so 2 updates in one year making about the same ratio.
Please tell us which freemium game has less updates?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
What P2P game can I get more of that I want than a F2P game?
The MMO standards nowadays are so dire that most MMO's end up F2P after a few months of P2P so why buy?
What MMO has been released as a P2P lately that hasn't gone F2P in a short amount of time?
The only P2P MMO that is worth mentioning is WoW and that is a mere shadow of it's former self and full of wankers. therefore F2P MMO's seem pretty good to me atm.
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
I'm betting they are much more successful in the short term than the medium or long term. The trend of low amounts of content updates and patches would indicate they aren't making as much money as people think.
echoed from the last statement
Again please site your sources because the games I looked have the same amount.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
because people dont seem to equate quality with sub fees. Free to play is the right model for shit games but not for good games. And when the good games out they think they're trying to gouge the player when its the other way around. The shitty f2p games always wind up costing a hell of a lot more money in the end.
F2P as a concept gives more control to the gamer to purchase what they want to play in a game instead of paying every single month for aspects they might not use. For example, if you sub to WoW but never raid you are wasting money in my opinion (I sub to WoW as full disclosure).
God, this is the dumbest argument in defense of F2P. If you can't shell out 15 bucks a month to support game aspects you might not use, then your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like arguing you should pay less for a movie ticket if all you want to watch are the fight scenes and ending. That's not how it works. And if you think that's how it should work, then you're a moron that should be ignored. FYI- I'm speaking about morons in general and not you specifically
Everyone ends up using all aspects of the game anyway if they play long enough . I hate pve but I've spent many hours grinding dungeons, raiding and crafting in WoW. Any half way decent mmo can't be parsed into sections like " stuff you're only going to play" vs "stuff you will never do."
F2P as a concept gives more control to the gamer to purchase what they want to play in a game instead of paying every single month for aspects they might not use. For example, if you sub to WoW but never raid you are wasting money in my opinion (I sub to WoW as full disclosure).
God, this is the dumbest argument in defense of F2P. If you can't shell out 15 bucks a month to support game aspects you might not use, then your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like arguing you should pay less for a movie ticket if all you want to watch are the fight scenes and ending. That's not how it works. And if you think that's how it should work, then you're a moron that should be ignored. FYI- I'm speaking about morons in general and not you specifically
Everyone ends up using all aspects of the game anyway if they play long enough . I hate pve but I've spent many hours grinding dungeons, raiding and crafting in WoW. Any half way decent mmo can't be parsed into sections like " stuff you're only going to play" vs "stuff you will never do."
This is the same argument you get about paying taxes. 'They are spending taxes on things I don't use, so that makes the system wrong.' If you hate crafting and never buy a crafted good, crafting still helps the economy. If you would never do PvP in your life, it is keeping someone else in the game who does. That someone is subbing, buying items or your joy rider guildie. Every aspect of the MMO counts.
F2P as a concept gives more control to the gamer to purchase what they want to play in a game instead of paying every single month for aspects they might not use. For example, if you sub to WoW but never raid you are wasting money in my opinion (I sub to WoW as full disclosure).
God, this is the dumbest argument in defense of F2P. If you can't shell out 15 bucks a month to support game aspects you might not use, then your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like arguing you should pay less for a movie ticket if all you want to watch are the fight scenes and ending. That's not how it works. And if you think that's how it should work, then you're a moron that should be ignored. FYI- I'm speaking about morons in general and not you specifically
Everyone ends up using all aspects of the game anyway if they play long enough . I hate pve but I've spent many hours grinding dungeons, raiding and crafting in WoW. Any half way decent mmo can't be parsed into sections like " stuff you're only going to play" vs "stuff you will never do."
This is the same argument you get about paying taxes. 'They are spending taxes on things I don't use, so that makes the system wrong.' If you hate crafting and never buy a crafted good, crafting still helps the economy. If you would never do PvP in your life, it is keeping someone else in the game who does. That someone is subbing, buying items or your joy rider guildie. Every aspect of the MMO counts.
Or like TV shows where I only pay for the shows I want to watch and not the whole package.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
None of the converted games are really F2P, they are much more along the lines of Freemium games or very limited and very restrictive F2P. One thing that has become obvious though is that all of the games that have converted have stopped updating as often and release of new content has been much, much slower than it was before the conversions.
Do you have any evidence or sources for this? Because the games I'm looking at show the exact same updates and expansions.
EQ2 - one a year before. It went f2p last year, there's been one expansion. So still one a year.
CoH - before it closed had 1 expansion before f2p and one after, and the same updates 2-3 per year, as well as several adventure packs.
lotro - first expansion came after f2p so hard to compare.
EQ - 1-2 expansions per year. Just went f2p last year, and there was the expansion Rain of Fear in November 2012.
TSW - did not have an expansion before, has not had one after. Had a few updates before, had a few updates after.
STO - released feb 2, 2010. f2p on jan 17, 2012. updates before f2p 2 (3 in first year, 1 in 2nd). 2 updates after, so 2 updates in one year making about the same ratio.
Please tell us which freemium game has less updates?
I have to question this on the grounds you have got some of this very wrong. Which makes me wonder how much else of it is wrong.
Lotro had two paid for expansions and several free huge updates which included whole new zones before it went F2P. After it went F2P it has two paid for expansions and but the free updates have been much smaller. The two expansions before F2P were also far larger and more compelling. They included Mines of Moria, the best expansion I have ever seen.
The TSW is a poor example, how can you put that MMO in here. It did not stay P2P long enough to have an expansion, so before and after is meaningless.
CoH had both expansions come out Before it went F2P. 20 free updates came out before it went F2P and 3 after it went F2P. Then it went bust, F2P did not seem to be the saviour they were looking for.
I got fed up at this point, maybe someone else will have a look at the other MMOs, please do not present this again as fact.
I am surprised that anyone could come away with the idea that after going F2P the quality is just as good. After all it is generally accepted that a P2P MMO goes F2P because of financial difficulties. Unless we are to believe they go F2P and suddenly are earning enormous sums those financial problems are not going to go away. My impression of F2P conversions has been a financial boost, but not enough for them to start retaking on staff they lost after launch or anything like that. That post F2P cash injection must help, but game direction shifts. It shifts to selling small items in a cash shop and restructuring the MMO to make you buy them rather than grand updates.
There are many details we are not told that lead to those concerns, we laid them out for you before, but they did not give you pause for thought. Issues like B2P being put into the same category as F2P when GW2 is making such a splash in the MMO genre could only distort figures in the favour of F2P.
Couldn't the same be said of WOW?
Yes it could. We just don't know that's the problem.
My real concern when it comes to F2P making more money is that not enough of it is being put back into F2P MMOs. I don't see much sign of this, and as players that's what really should concern us.
Aren't you holding F2P to a different standard than subscription then? You don't question the amount of money going back into your subscription game but you seem comfortable with the assumption that a satisfactory amount is.
Yes I am, I am going on the basis of what games I have played, what I have seen on here and what friends say. I have pointed out before my sample is weighted in favour of P2P MMO's. Give me the evidence of F2P MMOs with great expansions. These are going to be paid for ones I assume? If not how are they funding the expansion, why is making an expansion a priority for them?
The fact that the number of P2P MMO's is declining, I have not sort to deny. It is quite probably the reason P2P is making less money. In fact I have raised concerns about the effect the loss of P2P will have on the industry. No more new F2P MMOs that were P2P a year ago will be on posters lists as examples of great F2P MMO's. Those of you who shout "hurray" when another MMO goes F2P may soon be going silent. We are now in June, Defiance is the only P2P/B2P MMO that I know of that has been launched this year.
I personally have no attachment to a particular business model. If we look at what still has a subscription, it seems that in most cases having a decade of content could have something to do with it - there is simply more for the money in something like UO, WOW or EVE than in an MMO that comes out today.
If there's any truth in that, then it seems that in order for a new sub game to come out and do well, it has to offer 5-10 years of content from the start. IMO, the MMO to pull that off will be looking at a far longer subscription life than every other sub game released in the past five years.
Indeed, long term existence creates more content. But that affects F2P too, they need that longevity are they getting it? Longevity of being prepared to put money in updates that do not focus on item mail buying is what concerns me for F2P.
I have said before I do not think the F2P and P2P model will continue to exist in their current forms, they are moving closer together, both of them have already changed. In the future what we now call F2P may be able to attract more funding, which will be a good thing. For now though, I just see lower funding for games which allow free entry and less reinvestment in those types of MMO's. There are exceptions of course, in fact I have mentioned one before Atlantica Online, which does seem to do big updates.
It might be worth it for us to question if the F2P MMOs are getting lower funding than needed to make an MMO or if the people making subscription MMOs are just spending money poorly.
Both are happening in my eyes. SWTOR is a good example, the voice acting was a huge cost but it did directly add to the excellence of the PvE questing. The space flight sub game did not even seem to be connected to the rest of the MMO, that was money spent poorly.
Lotro released April 24, 2007. It went F2P Sept 2010. Your right about Lotro, I read that on wiki wrong.
TSW - I said it can't really be compared.
CoH - that is what I stated, one expansion before, one expansion after with 2-3 updates per year. That did not change. IT released Feb 2004, went f2p sep 2011. Had 1 major expansion before that, 20 updates (20 in 7 years 2.8/year). 1 major expansion and 3 updates after and closed Nov 30, 2012 (so 3 updates in that one years - an even higher rate than the p2p).
So far the only thing that you presented that disagrees with me is LOTRO. And then there are 2 expansions before, and 2 after so once again the updates are at the same rate.
I don't see any difference in quality of p2p or f2p games. I don't see any difference in quality of games after f2p.
EQ2 - one a year before. It went f2p last year, there's been one expansion. So still one plus a year.
Released Nov 4, 2004. F2P July 2010 (admittedly only on a seperate server, dec 6 2011 all severs). 10 expansions in 6 years before f2p (1.6/year), 3 expansions in 2 years after f2p (1.5/year - no significant difference).
If we compare all severs - 2 expansions in 1.5 years (1.3/year again not significant)
STO - released feb 2, 2010. f2p on jan 17, 2012. Has had 7 updates so far. 4 before f2p (4 in 2 years). 1 at f2p. 2 since f2p (2 in just over 1 year)
The only thing you countered was lotro, and I admit the information I had was wrong. However it shows the same about of updates. And many people feel that the Riders of Rohan Expansion was the best one yet.
So while you say much was wrong, the only thing you countered was Lotro, and I was wrong about the dates but not the rate of updates.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have 2 problems with F2P. That doesn't mean I hate them tho.
1. In almost any F2P game that a person wishes to play to it's fullest, the F2P option will cost more than a subscription will. I see people claim they've spent hundreds on cash shop items on a newly released F2P game. Hundreds? That's years of subscription time...and who know how much more they will spend in the future.
2. In a sub based game, the developers incentive is to make a cool and interesting game that will entice the players to continue to subscribe month after month. In F2P, developers incentive is to make cool an interesting items in the cash shop. So, the quality of the game seems to be leaning in the sub based game's direction.
1. In almost any F2P game that a person wishes to play to it's fullest, the F2P option will cost more than a subscription will. I see people claim they've spent hundreds on cash shop items on a newly released F2P game. Hundreds? That's years of subscription time...and who know how much more they will spend in the future.
Why is that a problem? Just play it "not to its fullest". The question is if the free part is fun, and many are.
I have 2 problems with F2P. That doesn't mean I hate them tho.
1. In almost any F2P game that a person wishes to play to it's fullest, the F2P option will cost more than a subscription will. I see people claim they've spent hundreds on cash shop items on a newly released F2P game. Hundreds? That's years of subscription time...and who know how much more they will spend in the future.
2. In a sub based game, the developers incentive is to make a cool and interesting game that will entice the players to continue to subscribe month after month. In F2P, developers incentive is to make cool an interesting items in the cash shop. So, the quality of the game seems to be leaning in the sub based game's direction.
Possibly agree with the first, disagree with the 2nd. IMO there is more incentive in a f2p game to make the game fun. The devs will not get any money at all from the player if it isn't fun. In a p2p they have your months sub and possible box before you even know if you like it. P2p does need to be fun, but the intiial push is all hype. F2p has to be fun from the very start.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
You worries too much. Even if what you say is true, so what? There are plenty of good games and good entertainment out there. F2P MMOs are not going away for a while, so enjoy them while you can.
When you find no more fun, go to play SP games, indie games, iOS games, or watch tv, movies, anime .....
I am not really concern about entertainment. If history is any guide, the amount of entertainment is always going up. I have less time to consume all the entertain i like.
Heck, if all MMOs cease to exist tomorrow, i doubt i will be sitting around being bored.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'd think EvE Online is worth a mention as a P2P MMO. Being an asshole is one of the requirements to play it (probably buried deep in the EULA somewhere... I never bother to read it). It's a very niche game however. With so many MMO's on the market today, I think most will become Niche games. Some love the P2P model, others love the F2P model. I think somewhere between the two someone will strike the right balance, and that model will prevail.
I haven't found a F2P model I've really liked yet, but with all the MMO's coming out, I'm sure there will be a place for everyone.
I'm not sure how successful the F2P model is... I'd love to see some numbers on it. I'm betting it's pretty successful.
Successful at what, is the question. And making money is the only legitimate answer to that question.
Growth. Does the game grow? If they listen to anyone BUT the pvp crowd there is a chance. Sorry pvp'ers I don't mean to hate it's just you all are obsessed with your little corner and you can't look outside your box and you will hurt anyone to get what you want - and usually do... ruin games.
Meh, I don't know... I can grow my restaurant guest list by inviting the homeless in for a free meal of pink-slime burgers but at what cost? From then on, I would be known as the shit-burger joint. Of course if all the restaurants starting doing that... nah, that would never happen...
F2P and cash shops are immersion killers in my opinion. The worst case scenario is the game becomes pay to win. But even if the devs restrain themselves and only sell cosmetic items or sidegrade weapons and armor, it still feels completely ridiculous to purchase these things outside of the game using real money.
I want the game world and real world separated as much as possible while I'm playing.
None of the converted games are really F2P, they are much more along the lines of Freemium games or very limited and very restrictive F2P. One thing that has become obvious though is that all of the games that have converted have stopped updating as often and release of new content has been much, much slower than it was before the conversions.
I'm betting they are much more successful in the short term than the medium or long term. The trend of low amounts of content updates and patches would indicate they aren't making as much money as people think.
Well you get to try and play before hand. To each point...
Graphics really? You sure got some crazy games you are playing, a lot of F2P games have good graphics, some even quite spectactular (tera for example) not even many P2P games have stuff like that, heck looking at WoW, the graphics on that would be burned alive if it came out on a F2P game.
Game play on P2P games are like that even. Besides, its stereo typing, one that if you look MMos as a whole, F2P or not taht exists.
Classes is another um.. odd point? Most games i seen actually have a wide assortment, heck some even more then P2P options out there. Not exactly the same but look at say Diablo 3 vs Path of Exile, the potential for different builds and characters is so vast between a B2P and F2P. Many of the F2P classes are just as complex if not more complex then P2P type classes..
*Looks at P2P* Yeah... pretty much same there, if not worst at times. I mean hell, WoW existed since its very first day DOING THIS. Seriously, try listing a feature they put in and you can name a game where it took that idea from.
Highly disagree on this. Not sure if you want to consider Tera "f2p" due to its origins, but the combat in that game is much better then GW2 in its execution and style. Sure, not to everyone's liking I know but its a lot better designed and complex system.
Sorry, but I think when you see F2P you create some illusion to hide the fact F2P games have some really good games now. it should be more about "Why do people accept *such and such* practice" rather then trying to bash at points that can either be used on Pay 2 Play games and in many cases can be false depending on the game.
Aim Small, Miss Small.
Do you have any evidence or sources for this? Because the games I'm looking at show the exact same updates and expansions.
EQ2 - one a year before. It went f2p last year, there's been one expansion. So still one a year.
CoH - before it closed had 1 expansion before f2p and one after, and the same updates 2-3 per year, as well as several adventure packs.
lotro - first expansion came after f2p so hard to compare.
EQ - 1-2 expansions per year. Just went f2p last year, and there was the expansion Rain of Fear in November 2012.
TSW - did not have an expansion before, has not had one after. Had a few updates before, had a few updates after.
STO - released feb 2, 2010. f2p on jan 17, 2012. updates before f2p 2 (3 in first year, 1 in 2nd). 2 updates after, so 2 updates in one year making about the same ratio.
Please tell us which freemium game has less updates?
echoed from the last statement
Again please site your sources because the games I looked have the same amount.
God, this is the dumbest argument in defense of F2P. If you can't shell out 15 bucks a month to support game aspects you might not use, then your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like arguing you should pay less for a movie ticket if all you want to watch are the fight scenes and ending. That's not how it works. And if you think that's how it should work, then you're a moron that should be ignored. FYI- I'm speaking about morons in general and not you specifically
Everyone ends up using all aspects of the game anyway if they play long enough . I hate pve but I've spent many hours grinding dungeons, raiding and crafting in WoW. Any half way decent mmo can't be parsed into sections like " stuff you're only going to play" vs "stuff you will never do."
This is the same argument you get about paying taxes. 'They are spending taxes on things I don't use, so that makes the system wrong.' If you hate crafting and never buy a crafted good, crafting still helps the economy. If you would never do PvP in your life, it is keeping someone else in the game who does. That someone is subbing, buying items or your joy rider guildie. Every aspect of the MMO counts.
Or like TV shows where I only pay for the shows I want to watch and not the whole package.
I have to question this on the grounds you have got some of this very wrong. Which makes me wonder how much else of it is wrong.
Lotro had two paid for expansions and several free huge updates which included whole new zones before it went F2P. After it went F2P it has two paid for expansions and but the free updates have been much smaller. The two expansions before F2P were also far larger and more compelling. They included Mines of Moria, the best expansion I have ever seen.
The TSW is a poor example, how can you put that MMO in here. It did not stay P2P long enough to have an expansion, so before and after is meaningless.
CoH had both expansions come out Before it went F2P. 20 free updates came out before it went F2P and 3 after it went F2P. Then it went bust, F2P did not seem to be the saviour they were looking for.
I got fed up at this point, maybe someone else will have a look at the other MMOs, please do not present this again as fact.
I am surprised that anyone could come away with the idea that after going F2P the quality is just as good. After all it is generally accepted that a P2P MMO goes F2P because of financial difficulties. Unless we are to believe they go F2P and suddenly are earning enormous sums those financial problems are not going to go away. My impression of F2P conversions has been a financial boost, but not enough for them to start retaking on staff they lost after launch or anything like that. That post F2P cash injection must help, but game direction shifts. It shifts to selling small items in a cash shop and restructuring the MMO to make you buy them rather than grand updates.
Lotro released April 24, 2007. It went F2P Sept 2010. Your right about Lotro, I read that on wiki wrong.
TSW - I said it can't really be compared.
CoH - that is what I stated, one expansion before, one expansion after with 2-3 updates per year. That did not change. IT released Feb 2004, went f2p sep 2011. Had 1 major expansion before that, 20 updates (20 in 7 years 2.8/year). 1 major expansion and 3 updates after and closed Nov 30, 2012 (so 3 updates in that one years - an even higher rate than the p2p).
So far the only thing that you presented that disagrees with me is LOTRO. And then there are 2 expansions before, and 2 after so once again the updates are at the same rate.
I don't see any difference in quality of p2p or f2p games. I don't see any difference in quality of games after f2p.
EQ2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EQ2
EQ2 - one a year before. It went f2p last year, there's been one expansion. So still one plus a year.
Released Nov 4, 2004. F2P July 2010 (admittedly only on a seperate server, dec 6 2011 all severs). 10 expansions in 6 years before f2p (1.6/year), 3 expansions in 2 years after f2p (1.5/year - no significant difference).
If we compare all severs - 2 expansions in 1.5 years (1.3/year again not significant)
EQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest
EQ - 1-2 expansions per year. Just went f2p last year, and there was the expansion Rain of Fear in November 2012.
Released March 1999, f2p March 2012. 18 expansion in 13 years as p2p. 1 expansion so far (released in Nov 2012) as f2p
STO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek_online
STO - released feb 2, 2010. f2p on jan 17, 2012. Has had 7 updates so far. 4 before f2p (4 in 2 years). 1 at f2p. 2 since f2p (2 in just over 1 year)
The only thing you countered was lotro, and I admit the information I had was wrong. However it shows the same about of updates. And many people feel that the Riders of Rohan Expansion was the best one yet.
So while you say much was wrong, the only thing you countered was Lotro, and I was wrong about the dates but not the rate of updates.
How successful F2p model is?
F2P players outnumber p2p only games 6 to 1 in the US, and F2P is making as much money (and probably will be more in 2013) than P2P-only games.
I have 2 problems with F2P. That doesn't mean I hate them tho.
1. In almost any F2P game that a person wishes to play to it's fullest, the F2P option will cost more than a subscription will. I see people claim they've spent hundreds on cash shop items on a newly released F2P game. Hundreds? That's years of subscription time...and who know how much more they will spend in the future.
2. In a sub based game, the developers incentive is to make a cool and interesting game that will entice the players to continue to subscribe month after month. In F2P, developers incentive is to make cool an interesting items in the cash shop. So, the quality of the game seems to be leaning in the sub based game's direction.
Why is that a problem? Just play it "not to its fullest". The question is if the free part is fun, and many are.
Possibly agree with the first, disagree with the 2nd. IMO there is more incentive in a f2p game to make the game fun. The devs will not get any money at all from the player if it isn't fun. In a p2p they have your months sub and possible box before you even know if you like it. P2p does need to be fun, but the intiial push is all hype. F2p has to be fun from the very start.