Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Sandbox and the player, can this even work?
whilan
Member UncommonPosts: 3,472
Recently we've seen a lot of developers throw out the word sandbox, one of the more recent ones is EQN. What this discussion is about is the players and how they react to themepark style games and thus what i feel might be the unforeseen issue with sandboxes.
If you've been in a theme park game you'll notice the question come up a lot:
Where can I find X for the quest I need. or, how do i do X.
This is also in games like Wizard101 where if you use the safe chat it has similar questions already pre-made for you, Can you help me with X quest or where can I find X person?
Many times in chat you'll see someone lost or asking how to do this or why they can't click on that, it's all seems like pretty simple stuff but people tend to get lost easy or don't want to figure out on their own how to do something.
Taking Age of Wushu for instance, I made one mention of doing a kidnapping and I had to walk (not guide, walk) three people through how that worked.
This leads me to the issue of sandboxes, in there general nature they tend to be relatively self guiding, in the fact that you generally need to work stuff out on your own most of the time, and it rarely tells you how to directly do things. I take a tale in the desert (ATITD for short), most of the time you have to figure out where to plant crops, where to get wood, how to find limestone and making buildings tends to result in about 20 steps of production to do (anywhere from getting flax to turn in to thread to figuring how to get charcoal), many times there is a guide on the internet so that can help but that is used somewhat infrequently by the mass as chat dictates. I've seen in the chat a while back several people asking how they can get wood, and grass the most simplistic of all tasks in that game and you had people asking how to do it. It's not that they are stupid i think they just don't feel like having to go through a lot of steps to figure it out.
Plus many people tend to not notice something is there unless it's pointed out to them, see GW2 for perfect example, the hearts quest was added because the majority of people (according to A-Net) couldn't find the public quests (sorry refuse to call them DEs) and thus needed to be guided to them, by nature sandboxes are anything but guided so I believe most will not see even half of what the game offers before dropping it and saying it has no content or is boring (from what i seen of sandboxes they can appear boring to people who don't understand the core fuction of a sandbox).
With the general nature of the MMO crowd as far as i've seen, do you think they will have the endurance to figure out how to do these things. I'm thinking a lot of people will see this as a step in the right direction and in same case it is, but will it keep enough people interested long enough and keep the frustration of people down enough to keep them coming back? Somehow i'm not optimistic when I look at in-game chat.
Note: i'm not saying don't try new things, just don't be 100% sure sandbox is the absolute answer on how to "revive" the genre because i don't think complete sandboxes will do that at all (I consider ATITD to be such a sandbox btw), personal opinion of course, I'm looking more towards a hybrid where it starts out themepark then switches to sandbox when the player understands it more.
What are your thoughts on this, can you see a full on sandbox working and if so why? You don't have to go as far as I did with pointing out games if you don't want to. Also lets try and keep this from being a sandbox vs theme park thread as there is already a sticky for that. This is focusing on players and if those that can swim will be enough to make more sandbox inclined games viable.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
The problem is people dont seem to like a change they dont wanna feel like a noob again after they learnt how to play themeparks and gotten use to it, Its difficult for some people to start anew and be clueless of whats going on. Kinda like learning english ur whole life then being tossed in a country that doesnt speak it they need to start over.
If people can get over this fact they probaly love the game style but the problem is not many people seem to wanna climb over this wall that gets placed infront of them they just take the easy route and cry on the forums or say the game sucks and quite without even trying. I beleive this was coursed by handing everything to players on a silver platter which all games have been doing for such a long time playes especialy the newer player hvae gotten use to it. They gotten the sense of entitlement of having everything handed to them and it hard for people to break out of.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
In my opinion, true sandbox titles remain as a "niche" MMO. Having a complete open mind when it comes to gaming really develops the ability to fully appreciate the creativity and vast open world of a sandbox MMO. This is where the word "niche" comes into play, as there are a lot of gamer's who need there MMO's to have all the creativity done for them and to have all their content mapped out to explore, which deters said gamer from entering or lasting in games like EVE or Age of Wushu, as it is all too overwhelming for them to do on there own. Although I like to indulge in a more open-minded sandbox MMO, I can still take time to play and appreciate "theme-park" MMO's such as World of Warcraft, Rift ect.
We are the biggest critics out there, which puts pressure on new MMO's that choose to cater to an open-minded community that thrive on creativity and pure gaming freedom, resulting in them being placed into a niche market of players that are just as hard to please as the rest, especially the ones with a vast amount of sandbox-playing experience.
Believe me, the amount of actual in-game guiding I provided for other players in Age of Wushu was constant. Though I enjoyed helping a lot of players who struggled, it I could give them a better chance of appreciating the game more, rather than criticizing the game based on what they failed to learn in the tutorials they should have done. I almost think though, that this is going to get worse over time, just take a look at the current generation of single player games. It really is just "Press X and Wiggle Left Analog Stick to defeat this boss" , too much hand-holding in current games makes it even harder for others to appreciate a game with a difficult learning curve that doesn't have all the answers given to you from the get go.
To make it short: yes.
There is a sandbox out there that is growing after 10y, so there is a market, even old SWG was a sandbox, but it's not the model that fails; it's the product a.k.a. the developer+suits that ruin a game/branch.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The difficulty in itself creates community, most important aspect in a sandbox imo.
Like you said yourself, you have been helping people with their questions ... that already builds community.
I remember in SWG many people had the Helper tag on and would hang out at the noobie points to offer them help. They hung out with them for a few hours, thought them the basics and provided them with basic gear and such. I have done it myself a few times, and the people i helped i stayed in contact with for years.
I think it's important to remember that people don't magically know where all the needles are in the haystack. It's very easy to forget, as an experienced player, what you didn't know existed as a novice player.
Compelely agree with the OP as I see these players every day and it is mind boggling. If a game has a tuturial they will skip right through it and then go into chat and ask ,"How do I make ammo"?? Or my favorite!!! " Wot do I do now?? "
After seeing that question for the 1000th time you sort of give up on helping people that seem incapable of helping themselves. And of course that degenerates into insutlts and flame wars and next thing you know a game is labelled as having a "bad community" And I think the more difficult a game is, more than likely, the worse the community will end up being.
Most times I find if you help someone, they expect that help the entire game!! You can only hold someones hand and "walk" them thru the game for so long before it becomes a case of you playing the game for them and not spending any time playing the game for yourself. And then after you put all the effort into helping they will disappear and all that effort is just wasted. Because of this I find my self very reluctant to help anyone now until they have proven some sort of commitment to the game.
I am a firm believer that Games are not the problem with MMO's today, it is the players.
Lazy and disinterested are the best words I can use to describe a large majority of them.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If 999 people have already needed to ask the same question, I would actually be more surprised if the 1000th person *didn't* need to ask it.
Excuse me ... and you are ?
Perfect games do not exist, nor perfect players. Keep that in mind for the 1001nth
Rated M for Mature - May contain content inappropriate for children
Yes the What do i do now question i've seen several times. The problem stems from just not seeking the proper help, I pointed out the getting wood as this is as simplistic as clicking on a tree and click get wood but it throws people because the tutorial doesn't tell them how.
By nature at lest from most sandbox games i've seen they tend to be rather skimpy on the toturial end so i'm wondering how much people will actually (in this day and age) attempt to work this out.
Granted EvE works but that didn't have a great player base at the start and grew so they (the developers) had the endurance to try, UO got it start when the MMO world was small so i believe these two are more of a basis of unique circumstances.
I suppose when looking at larger companies like Sony, EA, Blizzard, and the ilk that are now trying to get into this field will the player base be enough and last long enough for them warrant such a venture. a few niche games won't be enough of a push to override or get on even footing with all the theme park games.
With the complexity these games have and general lack of direction which is in their nature do the people who play MMOs generally even have the want to attempt to figure this out. some of the popluation seems to have trouble figuring out or following theme park games which are considered by many to be hand holding experts, something which sandboxes avoid at all cost.
I know one person said it's because of all this hand holding but thats just the problem if you place something as free roaming as a sandbox on a crowd that is used to hand holding, it may die before it even gets the chance and people will use the reason as, no point, boring, directionless, no end game, nothing to do, even if this isn't true.
I again don't want to think the player is stupid that they can't figure it out, it might be that the mass public of MMO gamers may not be ready for something so directionless with no guide just yet as a full on sandbox.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I'm not sure which UO you played but I played right after T2A was released in 98 and PKs weren't as much of a problem as many like to think. Yes, there were places in the world you learn to avoid - such as the crossroads and Brit graveyard among others. Though once you learned which places to stay clear of you were relatively safe, but you weren't 100% safe and that was part of what made the game great. If you wanted to escape all you really needed was 50 magery and a recall scroll. Full loot typically means your items can be easily replaced in most cases.
I think there needs to be new term for the kind of game that a lot of players are looking for; Sandpark.
I played EVE for eight years straight and only recently dropped my subscription out of pure boredom. The reason I'm bored with EVE is that there simply isn't enough scripted content that I can jump right into when I'm not doing anything else. The "content" is pretty much all player generated unless you want to run the same 50 missions/signature sites over and over all night until there's some PVP going on.
I also have been playing Age of Conan on and off for five years now, and the problems I run into in AoC is the lack of player input. If it doesn't exist in the world already, then too bad, so sad, you'll have to wait for a dev to implement it one day. The dungeons are great and fun. Collecting that last piece of gear for a set feels wonderful... but at the end of the day I also want to leave my mark on the world and there's simply no avenue to do that in AoC.
What I want to have is a game where my guild and I can create a city in a non instanced portion of the world of our choosing. I want to be able to... no, I want to have to defend that city from other guilds that may wish to raid it and take it over. I also want to be able to jump in a 2 / 6 / 12 / 24 man raid and go hit up some instanced dungeons for gear and crafting resources that can only be attained by raiding.
Center the game around the economy and make it so that items are lost/destroyed/lootable when you die in PVP and PVE so that crafters have a reason, a need, to keep making their goods.
Keep the leveling system, but remove the class system. Instead give us skill points every time we level that we can spend to train whatever skills we wish. If I want to play a guy who wields a two handed sword while wearing light armor and is pretty decent with a crossbow too, then I can as long as that's where I put my skill points.
People want freedom in creating their characters, the ability to leave their mark on the world through crafting and city building, but they also want some scripted content where everyone knows where they stand and what they need to do in order to accomplish the task.
Most people do not want to put in the effort to figure things out, it really is that simple.
I agree with other posters that after seeing players time and time again ask "What do I do now?" or similar things, in any game, gets annoying. Rarely is it a person who has run around, explored, experimented, and truly experienced the game. It is almost always someone who wants pure guidance so they can turn their brain off and just have stuff happen.
Sure you could take the approach that a game should guide you, but that is exactly what this thread is about. Is a game that is open for players to do as they wish and create their own fun able to work because it is contrary to the themepark fully guided game type.
I agree that sandbox games will probably always be niche because most players don't want to engage their brain to figure things out on their own. I'm also not sure why people have popped into this thread to be offended by those who feel this way and get annoyed by people who play in the sandbox constantly typing in "What do I do with this?" "OK, now what do I do with this?" "So where do I go next?" etc etc. That is exactly what isn't supposed to happen in a sandbox MMO. The player is supposed to jump in, explore, experiment, discover, and make their own path. Not ask for someone to take them down a path so they don't have to be challenged into figuring things out.
Yes it can work.
Minecraft has sold 11 million copies, making it the 5th-highest selling PC video game of all time (give or take some quibbling over how accurate some old numbers are - WoW is quoted at 10 million sales on those same lists).
I find it hard to rationalize a number that large against your hypothesis that the mass public isn't ready to live in a sandbox.
Not perfect either.
But I consider myself a pretty casual player and even I manage to find the answers to these questions myself. I know my post sounded harsh but to me it is part of the game experience to learn things on your own. Sure if there is a difficult quest, or technical issues, or just a reasonably thought out question, I have no problem.
Heres another question that I am afraid bothers me too.
"What is the fastest way to level if I am level 10??"
Excuse me, but isn't that part of the game too, learning which things give good exp and loot? If you simply ask for that information, how are you playing the game? IMO you are just going through the motions and not actually playing.
Anyway this is the point I was trying to make. People just seem to want things handed to them and wonder why they are bored of games after 2 weeks.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I think its a couple of factors
Before i start - I think your definition of sand-box might slightly differ from mine, yours i would suggest is more openworld my sandbox is where there are guidelines but no rules.
Eve - This is my game, and this is widely acknowledged as one of the foremost sandboxes, and yet this has missions / starter quests that help newer players, but by your definition this then would disqualify it from being a sandbox
A sandbox to me is where the players make the rules, again game above, you can steel / rob / scam / kill / grief (with few restriction like new players systems) gank basicalyl anything that you like
However, the problem with newer games and this 'freedom' is they have been spoonfed rules, for eg, WoW if you trade something with someone and give say 100 of item instead of 10 all you need to do is raise a peition and the GM will return it, in EvE they will laugh at you
Poeple are too used to the safety net of the GM , I have been playing (upto release) NWO and this was perfect example someone in local was scamming and all you got was people crying and whinging about getting ripped off - Sorry but suck it up you got screwed get over it
Now, asking for help in any game does not lessen its sandbox effect, Real life is the ultimate sandbox and we all have to ask for help / be shown how to do new things, your not just left to your own devices from moment your born, why should MMO be the same???
Lastly, I would also be interested to see if this is almost a generational thing, (not generation by age) but generation by PC - Some of us older gamers didn't have the internet its vast form that it is today we had to find out ourselves by doing, and where there MIGHT have been a forum or 2 around it was unlikely and unfortunatly today with Google et al its all too easy to type "how do i find x/y/z" and there you have 100s of various pages, who needs to think when someone else in the world had thought for you.
In relation to above, Ill give example of "the hobbit" on spectrum 48/128 you got stuck, was there some where to ask for help.. hell no, so you had to try all the variations to just type "**** off" but today you would google it and find all you have to type is "show key" or something similar to pass
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
i'm not sure how many of these 11 M copies are active people, boxes sold does't tell us how many stayed, a lot of people can buy a product because it's the new thing and drop it shortly there after because they get frustrated with it, as i pointed out could be the problem later on.
I will grant you Minecraft has garned quite a bit of a following but there is also a off-line mode that people play as well, so many people could have bought it for that reason because they like creating works of art in a game world.
How much of the MMO crowd (those that seek to play with others on a daily basis) actually play the game in an MMO sense is the question, also with no link to the site i can't tell what length of time we are considering when comparing WoW with Minecraft in this instance if it's all time sales of all expansions I'm pretty sure that 10M sales for WoW is going to be off by quite a bit.
However this isn't about so much how many people buy a game but the mentality of the player and can a sandbox game work with that mentality. Which just because a lot of people buy a game doesn't show they actually stayed or understood it enough to warrant continue running of the game.
Decent point on sales shows interest not sure it counters the point or proves sandboxes will work though with the normal MMO crowd.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Because looking for a NPC is not fun for them? It is not hard .. how hard can it be to walk all over town and click on every NPC? But it is tedious, and no-fun activity.
That is the issue.
Back in the Might and Magic (first one) days, i draw my own map on graph paper, because there is no alternative. That does not make the game magically more fun just because you have to do more. It is easy, non-challenging and tedious.
I much prefer mini-map and quest icons because i don't play MMOs to look for thing. I play MMO to combat things (and the combat better be fun & challenging).
We are not talking about decisions here. We are talking about simple but tedious tasks like find a NPC in this city. Just walk around and click on all of them. A 6 year old can do that .. but don't tell me that is fun.
There is plenty of decisions in MMOs. What class to play? What spec? Play the meta-optimizing/therocarfting game.
People just don't want trivial ones.