I rather like what they've done in TSW and Neverwinter, where if you die, you either can't rejoin the fight at all or only get 1 rez. So if you're fighting a boss and someone dies, you now have one less people to fight it with. Certainly makes very very very bad to die.
If the game has longer encounters though, i wouldn't want to be out for an entire 20-30 minute fight. So maybe some kind of limited time immunity from being able to participate in the fight.
For soloing, having to repair gear, attribute penalty and getting some XP loss and/or having limited "local" rezzes works for me.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I'm not sure why people need a penalty to not want to die in a video game. Death always has meaning to me no matter if there is a penalty or not. I get pissed off if I die, especially if I die in PVE. I mean think about it. Why wouldn't you be pissed off at dying to a string of code that can't think for itself? That is the ultimate insult and I don't really need a "penalty" to not want that to happen.
Other, two separate systems with common penalties:
For PvE - corpse run + durability loss on worn items + loss of xp that can be recovered via a /pray command similar to DAoC.
For PvP - corpse run + durability loss on worn items + Shadowbane loot system.
That's my nostalgic, knee-jerk response.
part in red, how bout just get a cleric to rezz you for a % of xp back like in EQ1 help bring comunities together.
As for PvP in EQ1 it was u can loot all of the enemy money they had on them. (use to be one item aswell(that wasnt equiped if i remember correctly)
Having the option for a Cleric to res for XP recovery is a no-brainer, but a Cleric isn't always going to be available at the site of your character's death.
I don't recall whether it was all coin + 1 item or just a percentage of coin + 1 item, but I'm referring to what I would like to see in EQN, which expands on the preexisting PvP loot mechanics from the original EQ.
Question: These older games with harsh death penalties...was it difficult to die? Because I can't see a harsh death penalty being popular if people die fairly regularly.
Or is a harsh death penalty an indirect way to force people to group? i.e. safety in numbers.
Also, does death via PvP incur a death penalty as well? or is the penalty limited to PvE?
Question: These older games with harsh death penalties...was it difficult to die? Because I can't see a harsh death penalty being popular if people die fairly regularly.
Or is a harsh death penalty an indirect way to force people to group? i.e. safety in numbers.
Also, does death via PvP incur a death penalty as well? or is the penalty limited to PvE?
1. Low levels it was a bit tougher but as you got a few levels under your belt and started to group up with others, if you weren't stupid it was pretty tough to die. You still had the freak pull or train that would wipe you, but for the most part just playing smart would be enough.
2. That plus probably the inability to go toe to toe with most mobs around your level 1 on 1 was the way to force people to group.
3. I don't remember for sure, but I know on PvE servers if you died in an arena you did not get exp loss but would still drop your corpse. They could not loot it however. Was probably different on PvP servers, especially Rallos.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Originally posted by intrinsc Losing XP is ancient thinking. Anyone even suggesting that is still stuck in 1992 game design and should not be playing modern games.
Yes that's right we should 't. the game companies should refuse selling us anything and if we even try to buy a modern game we should have a warrant put out for our arrest.
Some of you guys are just beyond the pale.
There is no reason why a game company can't hone in on a demographic and cater to it.
Demon/Dark Souls anyone?
Not only did it make money for its investment but it has a devoted following.
Stop thinking that your world view is the right world view. There are others here you know.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by laserit I would much prefer challenging gameplay to a challenging death penalty
The two things aren't mutually exclusive, they compliment each other.
Having too harsh a death penalty could limit how challenging you would want to design an encounter. Take perma death as an example, would you want to design an encounter where 99% of your player's would fail their first, second or third attempt? I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Originally posted by laserit I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Its a fine line with a good argument either way.
And that's the thing, I'm not sure where that line is.
If I fail an encounter I have no problems diving back in, regardless of penalty. But a lot of players do. If they can't run the encounter and "nail it" and if there is even a struggle to get it done they just won't do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by laserit Originally posted by asdarOriginally posted by laseritI would much prefer challenging gameplay to a challenging death penalty
The two things aren't mutually exclusive, they compliment each other.Having too harsh a death penalty could limit how challenging you would want to design an encounter. Take perma death as an example, would you want to design an encounter where 99% of your player's would fail their first, second or third attempt? I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Its a fine line with a good argument either way.
I understand your point, permadeath being the extreme death penalty, then from that point it must mean that any penalty is bad. I don't agree at all.
Permadeath is like playing a single player game without check points that takes hours to finish and anything less than finishing is a restart.
In that same theme a game with too many checkpoints seems frivolous to me.
I hate repetitively going back to the checkpoint in single player games. I try to do it right the first time and feel a higher sense of accomplishment than I would if I kept reverting to the checkpoint until every movement of the NPC's was known from a previous round.
No death penalty is like going back to the checkpoint then charging in and dying and remembering what the NPC's did and charging back in. I've seen people do the same in MMO's because there was no penalty.
Like with most things the best solution is somewhere in between. Currently there's no death penalty, permadeath is too extreme. EQ's death penalty was just about right.
Originally posted by laserit I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Its a fine line with a good argument either way.
And that's the thing, I'm not sure where that line is.
If I fail an encounter I have no problems diving back in, regardless of penalty. But a lot of players do. If they can't run the encounter and "nail it" and if there is even a struggle to get it done they just won't do it.
The line is keeping it fun and entertaining for the majority of your targeted player base.
Just remake Everquest 1, it's as simple as that. Most fans will agree that most things like this should not be changed or at least not stray far from what it felt like.
Another death penality is item a bit of item decay from dying , and eventually item breaks and you have to buy or craft a new items . This would be my favourite one because it means you are forever upgrading your character and never reaching an end until you quit game .
this also contributes to a healthy economy for loot sellers and especially crafters, if crafting plays any serious role in the game.
I personally hope they don't implement one of those easy to acquire items and item decay - casual trend systems. I was under the impression that this game was going to be a little more hardcore >.<
Crafting in games with item decay is a lot more fun because armor and weapons are consumable items .
But in a lot of modern MMO's the only real useful crafting is potions & food because they are consumed .
Im hoping that they have a SWG type crafting system and that every good item in the game is player made . Of course the augments or materials for the best weapons would come from the hardest bosses/monsters.
Then death & item decay like Dark Ages of Camelot .
I voted "Corpse run only." What I disliked about XP loss was de-leveling. If a character cannot de-level, I'd be fine with XP loss.
The other part of XP loss I disliked was barely winning a fight with maybe 1% of your health left and getting jumped on by a MUCH lower level Mob that normally would not even aggro on you taking you down. But because they "smelled blood" they deemed you worthy of their attention. Suddenly, you're down 2-3 orange bubbles, more than the 2 or 3 Mobs you just defeated gave you.
I can remember wisp hunting in East Commonlands and having my health get so low that Orc Pawns and/or black wolves suddenly started jumping on me due to low health. Sometimes they would finish me off and I'd lose more XP than I got for 2-3 wisps. That is a bit much for my taste.
I guess it really boils down to how the rest of the game is. If the game is XP on 'roids like most MMOs today, XP loss is pretty much meaningless. If it has maps, finding one's corpse will be much easier. If it is "zoneless", there will be no zone walls for reference, making corpse runs harder.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think something similar to Demon's Souls would be good for a MMORPG. You become a ghost, keeping all your gear, but being somewhat nerfed until you get back to your body. Rather than losing your money, which would be shit for a MMO, you can lose some experience.
I've had times where I really had to plan things out. Head back to town and buy speed potion's etc. You can spend some gold and a couple hours of your time and in the end... through your own wit and determination... you get your things back... which takes something that really sucked and turned it into something that was kind of cool... like an achievement.
Here's an idea; What if players were allowed to change their death penalty every so often (maybe once a month, as to not be exploited)? People who chose harsher penalties would have some kind of benefit, but not so large a benefit that others would feel gimped because they chose something different.
Everybody wants their own method implemented, and they'll make any excuse to use it if the option is there. If certain people love extreme xp loss on death, they're going to choose that penalty even if the benefit is so minor its almost negligible. In their mind its still a benefit, and because of that, they'll have justification to play the game the way they want to. At the same time, because the buff/benefit is essentially negligible, players who chose a less extreme xp loss, or maybe just a durability hit won't feel gimped. It's a delicate balancing act, but not as delicate as some might think.
Death needs to be very, very painful. There is absolutely no fear left in any modern game. That's why every modern game feels completely and utterly lifeless.
Here's an idea; What if players were allowed to change their death penalty every so often (maybe once a month, as to not be exploited)? People who chose harsher penalties would have some kind of benefit, but not so large a benefit that others would feel gimped because they chose something different.
Everybody wants their own method implemented, and they'll make any excuse to use it if the option is there. If certain people love extreme xp loss on death, they're going to choose that penalty even if the benefit is so minor its almost negligible. In their mind its still a benefit, and because of that, they'll have justification to play the game the way they want to. At the same time, because the buff/benefit is essentially negligible, players who chose a less extreme xp loss, or maybe just a durability hit won't feel gimped. It's a delicate balancing act, but not as delicate as some might think.
Nope it's not hard to balance, different server rules solve these problems.
I wouldn't see XP loss, but XP Debt that they used to have. Where adventurer vitality didn't help with getting through the xp debt. Was a bit of a grind when you died. Was also the way people would lock their characters before level locking, just jump off the top of the crafting area until you have 220% xp debt
Comments
I rather like what they've done in TSW and Neverwinter, where if you die, you either can't rejoin the fight at all or only get 1 rez. So if you're fighting a boss and someone dies, you now have one less people to fight it with. Certainly makes very very very bad to die.
If the game has longer encounters though, i wouldn't want to be out for an entire 20-30 minute fight. So maybe some kind of limited time immunity from being able to participate in the fight.
For soloing, having to repair gear, attribute penalty and getting some XP loss and/or having limited "local" rezzes works for me.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Having the option for a Cleric to res for XP recovery is a no-brainer, but a Cleric isn't always going to be available at the site of your character's death.
I don't recall whether it was all coin + 1 item or just a percentage of coin + 1 item, but I'm referring to what I would like to see in EQN, which expands on the preexisting PvP loot mechanics from the original EQ.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
Question: These older games with harsh death penalties...was it difficult to die? Because I can't see a harsh death penalty being popular if people die fairly regularly.
Or is a harsh death penalty an indirect way to force people to group? i.e. safety in numbers.
Also, does death via PvP incur a death penalty as well? or is the penalty limited to PvE?
1. Low levels it was a bit tougher but as you got a few levels under your belt and started to group up with others, if you weren't stupid it was pretty tough to die. You still had the freak pull or train that would wipe you, but for the most part just playing smart would be enough.
2. That plus probably the inability to go toe to toe with most mobs around your level 1 on 1 was the way to force people to group.
3. I don't remember for sure, but I know on PvE servers if you died in an arena you did not get exp loss but would still drop your corpse. They could not loot it however. Was probably different on PvP servers, especially Rallos.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
Yes that's right we should 't. the game companies should refuse selling us anything and if we even try to buy a modern game we should have a warrant put out for our arrest.
Some of you guys are just beyond the pale.
There is no reason why a game company can't hone in on a demographic and cater to it.
Demon/Dark Souls anyone?
Not only did it make money for its investment but it has a devoted following.
Stop thinking that your world view is the right world view. There are others here you know.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Haha what? How do you figure?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The two things aren't mutually exclusive, they compliment each other.
Asdar
Having too harsh a death penalty could limit how challenging you would want to design an encounter. Take perma death as an example, would you want to design an encounter where 99% of your player's would fail their first, second or third attempt? I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Its a fine line with a good argument either way.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
And that's the thing, I'm not sure where that line is.
If I fail an encounter I have no problems diving back in, regardless of penalty. But a lot of players do. If they can't run the encounter and "nail it" and if there is even a struggle to get it done they just won't do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Having too harsh a death penalty could limit how challenging you would want to design an encounter. Take perma death as an example, would you want to design an encounter where 99% of your player's would fail their first, second or third attempt? I would argue that having too harsh a death penalty would probably have a negative effect if you enjoy challenging encounters.
Its a fine line with a good argument either way.
I understand your point, permadeath being the extreme death penalty, then from that point it must mean that any penalty is bad. I don't agree at all.
Permadeath is like playing a single player game without check points that takes hours to finish and anything less than finishing is a restart.
In that same theme a game with too many checkpoints seems frivolous to me.
I hate repetitively going back to the checkpoint in single player games. I try to do it right the first time and feel a higher sense of accomplishment than I would if I kept reverting to the checkpoint until every movement of the NPC's was known from a previous round.
No death penalty is like going back to the checkpoint then charging in and dying and remembering what the NPC's did and charging back in. I've seen people do the same in MMO's because there was no penalty.
Like with most things the best solution is somewhere in between. Currently there's no death penalty, permadeath is too extreme. EQ's death penalty was just about right.
Asdar
The line is keeping it fun and entertaining for the majority of your targeted player base.
For me personally... I enjoy a good corpse run
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Crafting in games with item decay is a lot more fun because armor and weapons are consumable items .
But in a lot of modern MMO's the only real useful crafting is potions & food because they are consumed .
Im hoping that they have a SWG type crafting system and that every good item in the game is player made . Of course the augments or materials for the best weapons would come from the hardest bosses/monsters.
Then death & item decay like Dark Ages of Camelot .
I voted "Corpse run only." What I disliked about XP loss was de-leveling. If a character cannot de-level, I'd be fine with XP loss.
The other part of XP loss I disliked was barely winning a fight with maybe 1% of your health left and getting jumped on by a MUCH lower level Mob that normally would not even aggro on you taking you down. But because they "smelled blood" they deemed you worthy of their attention. Suddenly, you're down 2-3 orange bubbles, more than the 2 or 3 Mobs you just defeated gave you.
I can remember wisp hunting in East Commonlands and having my health get so low that Orc Pawns and/or black wolves suddenly started jumping on me due to low health. Sometimes they would finish me off and I'd lose more XP than I got for 2-3 wisps. That is a bit much for my taste.
I guess it really boils down to how the rest of the game is.
If the game is XP on 'roids like most MMOs today, XP loss is pretty much meaningless.
If it has maps, finding one's corpse will be much easier.
If it is "zoneless", there will be no zone walls for reference, making corpse runs harder.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't think I wont perma death, or even full loot. I would like to see debuff placed, and some coin dropped though, maybe even an item.
i voted XP, because that's kinda similar...
I've had some good times doing corpse runs.
I've had times where I really had to plan things out. Head back to town and buy speed potion's etc. You can spend some gold and a couple hours of your time and in the end... through your own wit and determination... you get your things back... which takes something that really sucked and turned it into something that was kind of cool... like an achievement.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Here's an idea; What if players were allowed to change their death penalty every so often (maybe once a month, as to not be exploited)? People who chose harsher penalties would have some kind of benefit, but not so large a benefit that others would feel gimped because they chose something different.
Everybody wants their own method implemented, and they'll make any excuse to use it if the option is there. If certain people love extreme xp loss on death, they're going to choose that penalty even if the benefit is so minor its almost negligible. In their mind its still a benefit, and because of that, they'll have justification to play the game the way they want to. At the same time, because the buff/benefit is essentially negligible, players who chose a less extreme xp loss, or maybe just a durability hit won't feel gimped. It's a delicate balancing act, but not as delicate as some might think.
Nope it's not hard to balance, different server rules solve these problems.
SOE are very good at different server rules.
Killing dragons is my shit