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Discussion from beta forums you guys should read.
jpsaca
Member Posts: 1
Okay so I just finished playing in beta, and as much as I wanted to be impressed I wasn't. I stopped playing mmo's about a year ago and thought I'd give ffxiv a try on my ps3 since I've been hearing about so much dedication to the game by square, but I can't help the feeling of how much I felt like I wanted to play other games while playing. The biggest flaw I felt while playing this game is that I had no control over what kind of character I was, there was no customization to separate me from anyone else playing my class in the game; this is one of my top priorities in a mmorpg and it seems like square didn't deliver in this aspect. The control over stats is pretty much a joke, and there is no control in what skills I get to pick. I don't want to spend time in the game just to be like a hundred other me's. The game plays itself, it just wants me to be there watching.
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It's not hard to be a good player in an mmorpg, any person with a decent attention span can play their part in a party. I dont want it to be like any other game than itself. I just was hoping for it to be engaging, which it isn't. I didn't look at the skills that I can obtain later on and I didn't think about where to put stats to get stronger. I didn't feel compelled to level higher....now that im thinking about it...all the skills felt the same as well. There wasn't anything cool to look forward too.
[QUOTE=Monzcarro;915401]OP I hear what you're saying. I think it would be useful for discussion purposes if you could provide an example of another game where you felt like you really stood out from people playing the same class. [/QUOTE]
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the mmorpg Ragnarok, but man was it a fun game to play. You had six-seven different stats which all came into play with every class. You were given tons of room to play around with the stats/skills and this created a lot of creative builds from the people. You had agility knights that swung around a sword at insane speeds or the vitality knight that used a spear, The critical assassin that of course used critical hits and the double dagger assassin which made use of the skill "double attack" and the list goes on man. All this player freedom created communities (forums) that players went to for help and sharing of new builds. Think about that for a second. Communities were made because they were needed. Needed. There's no need to have a community for a game that plays itself.
[QUOTE=Monzcarro;915401]Basically you stand out by being good. I'm not saying this kind of system is the best or even necessarily better that what you might be looking for, but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]
This is just something that I believe doesn't belong in a mmorpg and people may disagree. I play a mmorpg to train my little avatar guy to kick ass, and then go to the arena or "WoE" if anyone is familiar with that (basically guild vs. guild) to show off my time spent playing the game. I don't except to see any sort of "button mashing" or strategical challenge to it. I play games like Call of Duty for that kind of game play. When I think mmorpg I want to have to plan my character out with some thought, take some time and train him up to be strong and to have the originality truly shine.
[QUOTE=Silversky;914934]Why not try going down the "be really good at my class/job" route to standing out?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Einsof;915702]As you've said, SE has created a game where everyone is on equal footing.[/QUOTE].
I feel like this is the same thing as saying there isn't a way to stand out, because in all honesty it isn't hard to be competent and play your role in the party. I imagine the majority of the player base that gets to the game play that requires parties will know or have the ability to figure out how to use their class effectively. This reasoning is a cop out. I think they attacked the whole problem of being equal in all the wrong ways. The approach was taken very literal by making all the classes work the same way where it should of been looked at in a "rock-paper-scissors" manner.
[QUOTE=Loginwars;916103]Well, you can level up a RDM and be a BLU/RDM, that way you'll be super durable, have duel wield and be a great solo player. People seem to have this idea in there minds that it's not as effective as say... BLU/NIN or BLU/THF but you are just as competent, if not more so; it's super fun![/QUOTE]
That's great and all, yeah you can mix it up a bit with different classes and in fact you can master all the classes, and so can everyone else. What I want to know is what happen to the [B]role playing[/B] in rpg. You can't even set your stats up to be suited to a certain role really, that way it'd be optimal to max a few classes instead of all of them. For instance you'd max out all your dexterity and agility, then you'd probably want to level up your Thief and Archer class instead of a Mage and Healer. This was done in DOMO a free to play mmorpg. The game pretty much perfected class swapping...around three years ago.
[QUOTE=Warlock;917187]Sounds like you have played too many cash shop MMOs where you can stand out right off the bat throwing a lot of money in...[/QUOTE]
If you read the thread all the way through you can clearly tell I wasn't talking about aesthetics when I was talking about customization. I say aesthetics because that's what I know of being sold in cash shops. In fact I’ve never been a big supporter of F2P business models, a P2P mmorpg offers a stable income for the company and makes sure the game play is balanced. When you think P2P, quality usually comes to mind; especially when you think of all these F2P mmorpgs falling as fast as they are made. You should try not to make any more assumptions when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
[QUOTE=vactus;916833]What is DOMO? Name a mmo that is this mythical game you want? I've never seen a game where you could actually be unique, not even ffxi.[/QUOTE]
DOMO - Dream of Mirror Online. It was a mmorpg that is now closed. It had game play pretty similar to what ffxiv is now.
[QUOTE=xwmstormx;917934]It sounds as though you have no idea who YOU are. Your character/avatar's physical appearance my be duplicated but you can never be duplicated. You are what makes you stand out. Don't you get that?
500 people could stand in the same spot and have the same look and they will have a different names. Behind those names are a different person controlling said avatar.
How each person thinks, feels acts is all part of how they stand out. Their actions and how they interact with others makes them unique. In real life we are physically unique but this is a fantasy world. Were we all look quite a bit similar. Yet, the person we are makes us unique in this game world.
How we treat others, how we interact with them. Do we help them, do we troll them do we steal or be honorable with them is all part of what makes us... Unique..
In a field of roses how does one plant stand out from the rest? They don't because they are plants. How does a human stand out amongst other humans? They choose to do it based on who they are and not what they look like.[/QUOTE]
Why are you trying to make this personal? Stop it. Okay this is where I see you coming from: “Yeah sure, I admit all the characters will be the same, but don’t forget our personalities make us all different in our own special little way!” Correct? For one I don’t play a game to be Mr. Roggers. Once again this is not about the aesthetics of the avatar, this is about the core character mechanics. You keep on insisting I should be content with sharing my personality with everyone to show how amazingly different I am than the next warrior. You’re just giving the game a pass on letting the player have no control over how the character is developed. I play the game so I can be a better wizard guy than the other wizard guy, since when did anyone sit down, open up their favorite mmorpg and think “oh geez, I sure would like to show everyone my pretty little personality!” No. You get on there and think: “damn, spent all yesterday grinding my ass off to get those last 20 attack points now im going to kick some ass.”
Now im going to rip apart your ridiculous roses and dandelions analogy. Based on who they are huh? What does based on who they are entitle anyways? Well when I go into a job interview the employer does In fact take into account my personality, ill give you that. You know what they also take into account? Merits, GPA, previous experience. In case you didn’t figure it out, that’s an analogy for stats/skills in a mmorpg.
What you’re saying is we should give the developers a pass on not having unique character development, plain and simple. I disagree with this, plain and simple. If you don’t feel swayed into thinking differently, that’s cool man, but don’t point your finger at me and tell me what going on in my head. That’s not cool.
[QUOTE=TitanOX;918003]This two lines seem contradictory too each other. The part about making classes ( rock-paper-scissors ) instead of allowing classes to use their ability as rock-paper-scissors. I do not want one class to over power the other class. That is not balanced.
Are you talking about PvE or PvP here? For those who have not been following for very long. PvP will have it's own set of abilities for each class. Yoshida has stated this already that their will be abilities that are only for PvP and are only obtained through PvP.
PvP is usually where people stand out. If you want to be a special snowflake then you can PvP to show you are the best. Having stats points to boost abilities isn't going to make you unique. When everyone finds out what the best points to put for each class abilities is, then they will all allocate the same points into the same abilities. It just makes the game balancing for PvP difficult. Every time you add another class or ability to the game it increases the difficulty of balancing for PvP. Skill comes from knowing what abilities to use for each situation the player encounters.[/QUOTE]
Well this is because those two quotes have nothing to do with one and another. The first one with the rock-paper-scissors view is just me saying the classes should all have different roles as intended in an rpg yet all being equally useful in the game as a whole. Meaning you may have a character better in pve and worse in pvp, or any other combination of pros and cons in the overall mechanics of the game.
The second quote you mentioned of being balanced is about having an absence of any item that gives benefit to a player over another player via cash shop.
PvP is one area to stand out. If a game system permits, you could have stats and skills allocated to be better at PvE and forfeit the stats and skills that would otherwise make you better at PvP. By giving pvp a whole different skill set Yoshida just lost another chance to give the player a choice of trade off. A choice of thinking for their self. “Do I want to be better at pvp or pve, how do I want my character to play?”
[QUOTE=Yeldir;922448]Character customization is pretty much dead to the entire genre. It's more difficult to balance around, and the majority of players are, to be perfectly frank, not mentally prepared to notice or comprehend what they're giving up. Do you remember the mental acrobatics the Diablo III devs used to coerce their player base into believing they were being given [I]more[/I] choice by being unable to choose [I]any[/I] aspect of their character's development?
And the players, with the exception of a vocal minority, bought that rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty sad huh? While console rpgs are striving to add more interactive character development, the mmorpg genre takes away these options. Even non-rpgs have more character development depth then FFXIV; think of Call of Duty progression system where you at least gain new and different perks and the perks you pick decide how you play the game. Pokemon Blue and Red had more character development then what im seeing here, and you could only change four aspects of your little monsters! Now lets think about the biggest hit of rpg's as of late, Skyrim. Skyrim boast hundreds of different paths for your character to go. This game shows what players want, shows that players want control over how their character grows.
I don't understand where you guys are coming from when you say that this nonexistent character development isn't important. This is what makes rpgs of any kind and is why people play them in the first place. To me, interactive development becomes even more important when you're talking about mmorpgs. Now, not only do you want to feel like any path is optional, you want a path that separates you from other people playing the game.
Anyways I'm done debating about this, I highly doubt anyone from SE is listening and I know they plan to go through with this game how it is now. The reason I've spent time giving you guys my opinion about FFXIV is because i honestly care about the final fantasy IP and I feel like this will flop in its current condition. It wasn't fun to play.
Comments
I get it. You really wanted to like FFXIV:ARR but it just isn't the game for you. I know that disappointment I truly do but there comes a point where you need to just let it go and find something that's for you. Keep your eye on FFXIV and if an update or expansion comes out that seems like it adds what you want then check it out again. There isn't going to be a single game out there that everyone loves.
While I thought customization was a little limited myself (only 4 faces to choose from - no sliders) I did think that I could stand out as a player. I just focused on the little details of my class and which combinations of skills from other classes would be most beneficial to me for my job.
All in all, I have loved FFXIV so far and I'm looking forward to release! Sorry that you don't. I'm sure there is a game out there for you. Keep looking.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
ragnarok online had best character development on the market. devs doesnt like it because it wouldnt sell itself so well right now. They create games in a way that they can be friendly and easy to control for every single moron in the world who has gaming console and pc.
Complex character development and difficult to master combat system is fun and challenging. But It doesnt sell itself as well as very simple and easy going product which is friendly for everyone. Those who likes the game just because its FF will buy it anyway. So SE will get money on both fronts. Those who will try to open eyes of people by pointing out game flaws are being trashed by FanBoyz.
If mmo player base community would be more strict, then devs would be making better games.
[mod edit][mod edit]
The OP (and you) would have preferred Tanaka's system 1.0 started with. You could literally go down hundreds of paths and make a completely unique character with unique traits, abilities, wear any gear in the game (plate on casters, whatever). Sounds like paradise right?
Unless you actually like to group and play challenging content with balanced jobs and roles. Then that kind of system is a nightmare. Most people who play FF online games desire balance, and a focus on what works in groups. We WON, you LOST (because we vastly out number you, and player polls and feedback backed this up) and as a result we got a system more catered to our taste. You are welcome to never play the game if this is unacceptable to your sensibilities. You are also welcome to continue to act snobbish and superior about your niche tastes like they are somehow refined or harken back to the "better days" (been playing MMORPG's for over a decade, and I disagree).
Ragnorak Online was not an enjoyable MMO to actually play, the content, the challenge, the social aspect of grouping to work together in order to defeat something challenging was not there. FFXIV has that, it is a much harder MMORPG than Ragnorak Online was. I see people dying and failing to beat even level <20 content ALL THE TIME in-game, and yet these threads will never die. People will say combat is too easy, because it makes them feel superior. "I don't even have to beat this game, I already know it is beneath me."
They are different games, Ragnorak Online is a time sink character builder (and little else), and FFXIV is an MMO you play with other people. Many people prefer FFXIV to Ragnorak Online, some don't and they make threads about it.
[mod edit]
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Ragnarok is the standard I judge all mmos by in terms of freedom, but it had drawbacks, you could gimp yourself if you didn't plan ahead from lvl 1.
ARR has the usual limitations most mmos have, but there are ways to customize later on, just not with basic stats from the start.
Rift might me better for you if class freedom is your thing, or possibly Secret World.
Another boring thread pushing opinionated, shallow criticisms.
I'll sum up the original post for those who gave up on the tedious read: OP was hoping to, but does not like the game.
/thread
And he went to the gaming forums to discuss his gripes... so what's your problem? You know this is exactly where his concerns should be posted.
What's my problem? No problems, only solutions. OP should play a different game.
There, I have solved the OP's problems in a neat & simple sentence. I feel pretty good about the way this has turned out for all of us here in this thread.
Honesty is a virtue.
That's the thing with games like FF. The magic is either there or it isn't. OP doesn't seem to be feeling that pull. Game characters aren't much different than forum threads. How is this one any different than 200,000 other threads? It 'belongs' to you.
The whole topic is complaining about the core concept of the entire game. How is that raising awareness or how is that posting his concerns? He doesn't like it, ok, point taken, other people do, hence the thread is over nothing to discuss.
It's nothing but a complaint thread with no positive spins. He hates the game it is obvious, there is nothing constructive about it.
As stated:
/thread
I noticed this weekend they tailored the early storyline quests based on the city as well. I tried to do the lv. 13 Ul'dah one with a Conjurer and got my ass handed to me in 15 seconds. So yea, for all you power gamers who want to get to end game? All the squishy classes are in Gridania. So start there, it's an easier storyline progression set.
What did you find offensive about my post?
The moderators found my comments on the fact that people will post negatively about every game and use it as a soapbox to detail their ideal MMORPG design ideas, regardless of whether or not they make "crap" (the edited portion of his post), and that people were surely better informed after his rant (which really doesn't seem to do much to comment on this actual game).
I think when you say that a game only has two audiences, those who like very simple and easy going products and people who simply buy things called FF regardless you are implying that those people are stupid/lazy/undemanding gamers. Which is pretty passive aggressive if you ask me.
Not to mention how insulting it is to the majority of MMORPG gamers who unlike self proclaimed elite veterans actually have to play games in order to remark on their simplicity and lack of difficulty, and the thousands of people in beta who wiped and died to the low level content available in this test phase. I think that along with your contribution to the thread are far more effective examples of how to be passive aggressive on forums.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Its funny to me that you only see threds like this on the FFXIV forum. Some poor, lonely, lost mmo player who hasn't been satisfied by an mmo in years and hopes that FFXIV will save him from is wondering. He plays the beta 5-20 lvls and decides its not the game for him. Most players move on to something else... unfortunately there aren't many other good mmos to choose from, so he feels betrayed by FFXIV.
The big problem is the large majority does not agree with him on the quality or enjoyment of the game. So he has to post mostly unfounded negativity in the forums, hoping to convince more to feel the same way he does. I mean How dare SE not create the kind of game he wants!
A common trait of these wondering souls is to compare FFXIV's apparent lack to some other mmo. But the big question always goes unanswered.... "Why are you playing the FFXIV beta and not this other super wonderful game that you love?"
The truth of the matter is .... You're trying too hard. Who set you up as the "Great Protector of the MMO Consumer" You act like its your job to save all of us from any so called bad mmo.
Well buddy that's not your job. I'm a grown ass man, and im smart enough to know what I do and don't like. I am also responsible enough to know how to spend my money.
Besides what are you really saving us from? 29.99???
This is the best/cheapest mmo to come out in decades.
Please go waste your time somewhere else. Stop insulting our intelligents.
EQ1 at launch, was one of the most restrictive character progression/development systems I have seen before or since. Yet, after playing hundreds of mmorpgs since, I still prefer it to almost anything else. XIV is an amazing game to me, I'll take it as is please. I love some games that have lots of customization options, like AC1 and UO, but I also love what we have in XIV. It fits the lore, it fits the game. The game is an absolute blast. I owned 1.0 and still preordered the PS3 CE after a couple of beta weekends.
The games not for everyone. People have diferent likes and dislikes. Its not for the OP. I can understand that.
If you didnt like the game from a few levels, its OK. You'll find another game that you may like. Theres more than a few MMOs coming out in the next year. One might be the one for you.
As for me. Im having a blast. Didnt get past level 12 as a THM, not the right class for me. Still had fun. Then I got Miner to 10. It was a blast. Tried like 4 crafting classes, also found them a blast!
The game, in my opinion, does not bring anything new to MMOs. It does bring FUN. For me. Didnt want to play the story in Closed beta, so I did other things. Many other things. Thats the hook of this game for me. Theres so much to do. different things to do.
Im in a guild of about 30 people, not everyone of them will go to FF14. Just enough for me to have fun with friends, and fun with a game. That to me is worth playing the game!
This game has a fun factor that I have not found in many, many MMos over the last several years. Been looking for a game that I can play for hours. FF14 is the game.
Maybe Im one of those that likes old fashioned MMOs. I tried games that say they have new combat, new questing, new Events. All kinds of New. This game has old stuff. The combat is not new, the questing system is not new. There just fun! The crafting and gathering is great, not since Vanguard have I seen such a cool system.
The game is great. Im hoping it will be very sucesfsul. I already pre-ordered the digital CE, and I cant wait!
One last thing, its polished. I loved the game for that. Its got a feel, and look of a polished game. It does the old things I love about MMOs, and it does them very well.
Keep looking if the game is not for you. i know I have spent a few years looking. I found my game. Youl'l find yours.
Same here. I tried it just to play with a friend, not expecting much, and I had a surprisingly good time, preordered and am looking forward to release.
Agree 100%.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I agree with the OP in that I too feel like at some point, perhaps in a year, most everyone will be the same; capable of the same things. I do not find that "skills" are required for combat so individuality may suffer. I have not leveled past 26 so I am totally ignorant of end game combat, from what I've gathered, this may be the case...which is a concern. But, the game is still very enjoyable, and that one flaw (which may end-up not even being a flaw) should not deter anyone from subbing to this game. Individuality aint all it's cracked up to be anyways.
P.S. Please bring back skillchain/magic bursts!!!
...nothing someone says before the word "but" really counts.
-Benjen Stark