Everything should be attainable in game that is sold in the cash shop, I am against exclusivity. Of course, I am also against rediculous .25% drop rates on mounts (talking to you Blizzard).
There is no reason why any item requires killing a raid boss every week on 50 characters, and still probably not seeing for several months to a year...
Some people kill Anzu in Sethekk Halls 130 times for a mount, but at least that's "attainable" in-game right? *sigh* Grinds are pointless... I suppose in this case it does make more sense to just buy it for real cash...
In fact, games could still make a ton of money like Sony's $50 pink meatbeast and Lord of the Rings Online Hobby Horse, even if they are attainable through in-game grinding, because how many seriously would choose to grind if they had the cash to simply buy it?
This status symbol elitism nonsense irks me, if any item is beautiful I don't want it less because others have it, I still want it to be mine because I like it...
Please just put every item in game and shop together, so we can choose to earn or pay for them...
Of course, I don't think statistic equipment should be as powerful as it is, or sold ever, and I'm against potions being sold because that destroys crafters.
Everything should have been cosmetic value, and I miss the days when you could actually play a game and do cool challenging quests, instead of merely "buying" everything or "grinding" gray content for a low drop rate item.
In terms of pvp or even grouping on games like EQ2, it wouldn't be fun doing dungeons if people ever paid real money for their equipment, because then like the raiders they'd have nothing to attain from the zones and they don't bring anything but gimp weak alts for gear...
All people seem to do is play and level alts all the time, because their raiding chars have nothing to attain... All the good stuff on Everquest 2 is on Marketplace for Station Cash and Platinum is worthless!!
So, any "Free" game needs to simply allow us to earn stuff again that would be great, add quests and new loots to old content and you can basically get us to do old deserted zones again, add in a mentor system that actually properly scales down a max level because its pretty boring being so overpowered and killing an entire zone with 1 level 90. Not to mention, it really punishes any low levels in the vicinity!
I wish games had true communities myself, people disappear all the time now... you can't make friends because they usually never log in...
However, it should be earn it, and that means grouping with other people doing hard challenging elite content to get something instead of paying money. Thus, you would be providing a group mate, a important slot filler, for the other people who want to group and play an MMO instead of a single player solo game... That free person being a population builder idea is something that companies never like to go with. People will play and pay for games with a high population, if those players are free it doesn't matter, because few peple want to pay money for a deserted game with no population... As soon as the population dries up, everyone cries for server mergers and leaves... Get millions of free players, instant groups and quick queues and a popular game, where everyone can earn items together in fun and challenging quest lines... People that have money should use it to support games that they enjoy, and people that have no money should be the friends and crafters/group mates for those who do have money to talk and play with...
So long as there are no industry-wide standards associated with f2p, so long as they continue to (quite intentionally) 'value price' their alternate currency so that you can never buy just the amount that you want or need, and so long as customer service is practically non-existant, f2p will always be an inferior model of game by definition. And so long as public shareholders are the ones who must be answered to, games will continue -- by law! -- to find new ways to squeeze the 'voluntary' payments of players to ever-increasing heights, sometimes by dint of introducing things that people want and, on occasion, by tweaking internal settings to make the need - I mean 'desire', of course - to use the shop more and more obvious.
Marketing has almost always been a foul, detestable field from the moment commercials went from simply introducing a product to researching how to make you think you 'need' it. That poison pill was swallowed a long time ago, though...sadly.
Focusing on whether or not an implementation is 'pay to win' -- a foolish prospect at best, since there is no generally agreed-upon definition -- is merely a distraction to the real problem, that being that cash shops were ever seen as a -good- way to play in the first place, and that game developers who have them should be under the auspices of Fiduciary Responsibility.
Amusing comments. So many saying 'all free to play games are ______" Cheerfully fill in the blank. Might as well say 'all pay to play games are not ______ " Doesn't really matter what you put in the blank space, the answer is wrong. I have played many, many mmos. The only thing I can say in reference to any one category is that they are all different. Played some very good free games and some very bad pay games.
True, some free to play games are pay to win. But then I have seen a few pay to play games that had an item mall with unbalanced game items as well. Also there are quite a few free games that allow any cash shop item to be earned in game; either through the auction house or by some in game currency exchange system, only advantage to the rich gamer in those type of games is that they can get stuff faster.
Also disagree with the statement that all free games are bad as well as the unspoken inference that all pay to play games are good. That's utter nonsence and anyone that doesn't see that isn't paying attention. There are good and bad games on BOTH sides of that distinction and even the most rabid defender / attacker of a particular type of game knows it; even if they won't admit it.
Pay to win game is a game that makes gear available that provides ONLY the paying customers with a clear and insurmountable advantage over those that choose not to pay. Just because a free game has a cash shop doesn't make it pay to win, even if that shop sells gear.
If you want to discuss the merits of a particular game, I will follow with interest; but there are too many differences between games to make any blanket statement that accurately covers any particular genre.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but i'm not sure that you realize that what you thought you heard, is not what I meant.
As a committed player of Rift, it was pretty painful to go through their recent switch to F2P. Of all the things that were and are still changing, the thing I miss the most is the level playing field.
F2P introduces a volatile subject - money. And the haves and the haves not will forever be divided. Though some of the brouhaha has calmed down now, the sour grapes are still apparent in some circumstances.
It's all a pyramid scheme, because sooner or later the games are going to end, and everyone is going to lose.
The only difference at that point will be who the biggest losers are: the ones paying all this money into it.
At least the casino whales get comped at the high-rollers suite, a free show and a nice dinner. The only thing waiting for every MMO whale is the harpoon of regret.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
To me, it comes down to the quality of the game. Too many free to play games are cheap, pushed out of the door far too soon, and barely worth my time, let alone my money. If the game is one I enjoy playing, than I am far, far, far more willing to accept the marketing tricks and tactics that every business uses. If you try to feed people crap, all the while trying to convince them that it's actually gold, something very common in the current free to play market with the poor quality of the games, of course you are going to get a bad rep. Some devs are starting to turn that around, but not enough for the free to play market to shake what is still a legitimate bad reputation.
Comments
Everything should be attainable in game that is sold in the cash shop, I am against exclusivity. Of course, I am also against rediculous .25% drop rates on mounts (talking to you Blizzard).
There is no reason why any item requires killing a raid boss every week on 50 characters, and still probably not seeing for several months to a year...
Some people kill Anzu in Sethekk Halls 130 times for a mount, but at least that's "attainable" in-game right? *sigh* Grinds are pointless... I suppose in this case it does make more sense to just buy it for real cash...
In fact, games could still make a ton of money like Sony's $50 pink meatbeast and Lord of the Rings Online Hobby Horse, even if they are attainable through in-game grinding, because how many seriously would choose to grind if they had the cash to simply buy it?
This status symbol elitism nonsense irks me, if any item is beautiful I don't want it less because others have it, I still want it to be mine because I like it...
Please just put every item in game and shop together, so we can choose to earn or pay for them...
Of course, I don't think statistic equipment should be as powerful as it is, or sold ever, and I'm against potions being sold because that destroys crafters.
Everything should have been cosmetic value, and I miss the days when you could actually play a game and do cool challenging quests, instead of merely "buying" everything or "grinding" gray content for a low drop rate item.
In terms of pvp or even grouping on games like EQ2, it wouldn't be fun doing dungeons if people ever paid real money for their equipment, because then like the raiders they'd have nothing to attain from the zones and they don't bring anything but gimp weak alts for gear...
All people seem to do is play and level alts all the time, because their raiding chars have nothing to attain... All the good stuff on Everquest 2 is on Marketplace for Station Cash and Platinum is worthless!!
So, any "Free" game needs to simply allow us to earn stuff again that would be great, add quests and new loots to old content and you can basically get us to do old deserted zones again, add in a mentor system that actually properly scales down a max level because its pretty boring being so overpowered and killing an entire zone with 1 level 90. Not to mention, it really punishes any low levels in the vicinity!
I wish games had true communities myself, people disappear all the time now... you can't make friends because they usually never log in...
However, it should be earn it, and that means grouping with other people doing hard challenging elite content to get something instead of paying money. Thus, you would be providing a group mate, a important slot filler, for the other people who want to group and play an MMO instead of a single player solo game... That free person being a population builder idea is something that companies never like to go with. People will play and pay for games with a high population, if those players are free it doesn't matter, because few peple want to pay money for a deserted game with no population... As soon as the population dries up, everyone cries for server mergers and leaves... Get millions of free players, instant groups and quick queues and a popular game, where everyone can earn items together in fun and challenging quest lines... People that have money should use it to support games that they enjoy, and people that have no money should be the friends and crafters/group mates for those who do have money to talk and play with...
So long as there are no industry-wide standards associated with f2p, so long as they continue to (quite intentionally) 'value price' their alternate currency so that you can never buy just the amount that you want or need, and so long as customer service is practically non-existant, f2p will always be an inferior model of game by definition. And so long as public shareholders are the ones who must be answered to, games will continue -- by law! -- to find new ways to squeeze the 'voluntary' payments of players to ever-increasing heights, sometimes by dint of introducing things that people want and, on occasion, by tweaking internal settings to make the need - I mean 'desire', of course - to use the shop more and more obvious.
Marketing has almost always been a foul, detestable field from the moment commercials went from simply introducing a product to researching how to make you think you 'need' it. That poison pill was swallowed a long time ago, though...sadly.
Focusing on whether or not an implementation is 'pay to win' -- a foolish prospect at best, since there is no generally agreed-upon definition -- is merely a distraction to the real problem, that being that cash shops were ever seen as a -good- way to play in the first place, and that game developers who have them should be under the auspices of Fiduciary Responsibility.
Amusing comments. So many saying 'all free to play games are ______" Cheerfully fill in the blank. Might as well say 'all pay to play games are not ______ " Doesn't really matter what you put in the blank space, the answer is wrong. I have played many, many mmos. The only thing I can say in reference to any one category is that they are all different. Played some very good free games and some very bad pay games.
True, some free to play games are pay to win. But then I have seen a few pay to play games that had an item mall with unbalanced game items as well. Also there are quite a few free games that allow any cash shop item to be earned in game; either through the auction house or by some in game currency exchange system, only advantage to the rich gamer in those type of games is that they can get stuff faster.
Also disagree with the statement that all free games are bad as well as the unspoken inference that all pay to play games are good. That's utter nonsence and anyone that doesn't see that isn't paying attention. There are good and bad games on BOTH sides of that distinction and even the most rabid defender / attacker of a particular type of game knows it; even if they won't admit it.
Pay to win game is a game that makes gear available that provides ONLY the paying customers with a clear and insurmountable advantage over those that choose not to pay. Just because a free game has a cash shop doesn't make it pay to win, even if that shop sells gear.
If you want to discuss the merits of a particular game, I will follow with interest; but there are too many differences between games to make any blanket statement that accurately covers any particular genre.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but i'm not sure that you realize that what you thought you heard, is not what I meant.
As a committed player of Rift, it was pretty painful to go through their recent switch to F2P. Of all the things that were and are still changing, the thing I miss the most is the level playing field.
F2P introduces a volatile subject - money. And the haves and the haves not will forever be divided. Though some of the brouhaha has calmed down now, the sour grapes are still apparent in some circumstances.
It's all a pyramid scheme, because sooner or later the games are going to end, and everyone is going to lose.
The only difference at that point will be who the biggest losers are: the ones paying all this money into it.
At least the casino whales get comped at the high-rollers suite, a free show and a nice dinner. The only thing waiting for every MMO whale is the harpoon of regret.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE