I think this thread does a good job pointing out how MMO's focal point is in the social aspect of the game. The somewhat casualness of camping is something I somewhat miss, despite the disadvantages, it was still fun hanging out with people you enjoy socializing with and I think this is something that is terribly missed today.
But this is something you can still do today without camping. You could always do it. You don't have to have mandated down-time to talk to people you enjoy being around. I fail to see why so many people think that this bad mechanic is the only way to get a favorable social result.
Many players are too focused on their own progress and generally won't do anything for the sake of actually doing it. Every second spent has to have some reward and I sadly think previous MMO's has trivialized the whole experience down to that.
Yet isn't that the choice of the individual? If that's what other people want to do, what business is it of yours? You can stop and shoot the breeze any time you want to, it's your choice. You have no right to force your choices on anyone else.
Now I don't mean to be grim but my favorite MMO's of all time to this day is still Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies because of how well you can casually play the game and socialize with others. Not many other MMO's since then allowed you to organize and build your own towns and cities or provide that degree of freedom within the environment.
You can casually play the game and socialize with anyone you want to in any game out there, what are you talking about?
Now its all about combat and combat mechanics and everything else is just lost or trivialized. What I believe separates great MMO's from the good ones today is which ones provides the best social tools and group activities IMO.
It just appears that too many MMO's are trying to cater to as many people as possible rather than trying to focus their game onto a target audience.
That's always been the way it's worked, sorry. Businesses are in business to make money and they do that by appealing to the largest audience possible. It's just that there is a larger audience available since MMOs went mainstream.
EQ and FFXI are still there actually. You can camp all you want, for the record :-p.
Ah, the dumbest argument in the book...
No, the games as we knew and loved them have long ago been patched away.
They've been patched away because the majority of players didn't like them like that. Why is that so hard for you people to understand?
Oh we understand it all right, we just do not like it and are still disappointed by the shortsightedness of the developers. I could make a personal attack here but I will leave that to you.
I think this thread does a good job pointing out how MMO's focal point is in the social aspect of the game. The somewhat casualness of camping is something I somewhat miss, despite the disadvantages, it was still fun hanging out with people you enjoy socializing with and I think this is something that is terribly missed today.
But this is something you can still do today without camping. You could always do it. You don't have to have mandated down-time to talk to people you enjoy being around. I fail to see why so many people think that this bad mechanic is the only way to get a favorable social result.
Aside from the few people that "camp" general chat most people want to be doing something while they socialize. MMOs do a great job of this, too good a job. Now the doing something involves just me, myself and I because I can progress just as easily without the hassle. No one said it was the only way, just the only one so far to get results.
Many players are too focused on their own progress and generally won't do anything for the sake of actually doing it. Every second spent has to have some reward and I sadly think previous MMO's has trivialized the whole experience down to that.
Yet isn't that the choice of the individual? If that's what other people want to do, what business is it of yours? You can stop and shoot the breeze any time you want to, it's your choice. You have no right to force your choices on anyone else.
Again, socializing within playing the game. Sure, no one should force another to participate but the common gameplay mechanics actually discourage interaction. This just doesn't make sense in an MMO setting.
Now I don't mean to be grim but my favorite MMO's of all time to this day is still Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies because of how well you can casually play the game and socialize with others. Not many other MMO's since then allowed you to organize and build your own towns and cities or provide that degree of freedom within the environment.
You can casually play the game and socialize with anyone you want to in any game out there, what are you talking about?
He's talking about actually building a community with structures and player organization, not just hanging out at the auction house.
Now its all about combat and combat mechanics and everything else is just lost or trivialized. What I believe separates great MMO's from the good ones today is which ones provides the best social tools and group activities IMO.
It just appears that too many MMO's are trying to cater to as many people as possible rather than trying to focus their game onto a target audience.
That's always been the way it's worked, sorry. Businesses are in business to make money and they do that by appealing to the largest audience possible. It's just that there is a larger audience available since MMOs went mainstream.
True, there are more players and if you consider the tenure of the online populace in general you can see why MMOs can suffer social wise. Companies are in it to make money but they have tried by copying the MMO with the largest audiance possible, which itself lost 12% of it's paying base this year. I have no seeing eye but I have a feeling that things are shifting. Making money for an MMO means keeping people playing it. When players feel more invested in an MMO they stay and the best way to accomplish that, minus good gameplay of course, is other people.
It won't take many titles to get it right to see it's effect of more social MMOs.
Collecting 10 stone/wood/etc what the empire is needing and really can using. // hell yeah
killing 10 bandits that want to attack a little village, and if i dont kill them their will really attack the village // hm mabye, if im in the mood and the price is right.
Don't like it unless there is an open group system. Saves kills getting stolen or unable to progress a quest because a camp is already there. I prefer to progress through grinding and questing.
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling out for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for me, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling our for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for m, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
Instanced zones are not the same as camping if for no other reason than the fact that two seperate groups can literally do the exact same zone. In most traditional forms of the word camping, that's not possible without one group encroaching on another group. So no, doing a dungeon is not the same as camping.
Instanced locations were designed to address MANY of the glaring shortcomings of campings. Campings are subject to the physical size of the game, population of the server, population during times, popularity of location, etc. With all of these variables, its never improbable to find a group in your desired area and then have to wait for them to finish. For most people, it's incredibly unfun to spend time making a group, going to a place, and finding out that said place is basically reserved for the next 4 hours. Instances allow me to get a group going and go to the desired place WHENEVER I want with absolutely NO potential of it being unavailable to me. Until you can design a world cheaply that can house thousands of endgame players at one single time, Instances are clearly the way to go.
As for what you are asking, actually think about that for a second. You're asking for an entire zone to be soloable. You are also asking for each zone to be large to house hundreds to thousands of people. That is an epicly massive zone, even by today's standards. If you want multiple zones? You're talking about the largest geographical MMORPG to date.
I agree that LFG dungeon crawl is very stagnant because it's always a GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B with a bunch of fighting in between. But honestly, reverting back to camping is not the answer. The answer, obviously, is make different types of instances. But in all honesty, the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability to say "Hey guys, afk a sec"
Originally posted by Mardukk They need to have all mobs drop loot specific to that mob. Rare spawns need to come back. Put in the gw2 tagging system and everyone gets loot from the mob they hit.
EQ and FFXI are still there actually. You can camp all you want, for the record :-p.
Ah, the dumbest argument in the book...
No, the games as we knew and loved them have long ago been patched away.
For good reason. Have you actually played that game Pre WoTG?
Do you remember when in ToAU there were only like 10 ample camp locations that were supposed to house the entire level 75 player base?
Do you remember how each single dynamis was unavailable to the REST of the server for 2 hours whenever someone (literally could have been just 1 person) was in it?
Do you remember how there were like 5 different linkshells camping King Behemoth, Fafnir, and Niddhog?
Do you remember all of the other really good Notorious Monsters that you had to wait to be killed by another LS before you could even start?
75% of my time spent playing that game was quite literally just waiting for other people to finish their stuff so I could do my thing.
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling our for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for m, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
Instanced zones are not the same as camping if for no other reason than the fact that two seperate groups can literally do the exact same zone. In most traditional forms of the word camping, that's not possible without one group encroaching on another group. So no, doing a dungeon is not the same as camping.
Instanced locations were designed to address MANY of the glaring shortcomings of campings. Campings are subject to the physical size of the game, population of the server, population during times, popularity of location, etc. With all of these variables, its never improbable to find a group in your desired area and then have to wait for them to finish. For most people, it's incredibly unfun to spend time making a group, going to a place, and finding out that said place is basically reserved for the next 4 hours. Instances allow me to get a group going and go to the desired place WHENEVER I want with absolutely NO potential of it being unavailable to me. Until you can design a world cheaply that can house thousands of endgame players at one single time, Instances are clearly the way to go.
As for what you are asking, actually think about that for a second. You're asking for an entire zone to be soloable. You are also asking for each zone to be large to house hundreds to thousands of people. That is an epicly massive zone, even by today's standards. If you want multiple zones? You're talking about the largest geographical MMORPG to date.
I agree that LFG dungeon crawl is very stagnant because it's always a GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B with a bunch of fighting in between. But honestly, reverting back to camping is not the answer. The answer, obviously, is make different types of instances. But in all honesty, the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability to say "Hey guys, afk a sec"
WOW.. did you even read what I wrote or just started hating everything and LOOKING for something to argue about.. There were only 2 REASONS why instancing was ever created.. 1) Waiting lines for a camp location 2) Fighting over "LOOT" from a named NPC that multiple people wanted at the same time... As I said, doing an instance dungeon crawl is the SAME mechanic as camping.. without the hassle of sharing..
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
NOW as for the last sentence you stated QUOTE: "the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability"... UM hypocrite? Pot meet Kettle.. YOU are doing that yourself.. So only your person style is allowed and not others.. OK .. Got ya, glad you cleared that up..
Rare spawns are fun when you have to hunt (search) for them, not when you sit in a place for hours waiting for them to spawn.
What MMOs need back is the feeling of the hunt, not camping.
OK.. again I have to point out the obvious here... Lets take WoW "Deadmines" instance dungeon as the example.. What would be the difference between repeating that dungeon over and over and over and over, "camping" the bosses in there for specific loot to drop, or just having a simple UP FRONT camp like it was in the days of EQ...
BTW.. You can't use the excuse of sharing the location, because I already addressed that.. Camping a location is the same bloody thing as farming an instance dungeon, we all have done thousands of times... I can't begin to count how many times I farmed instances for a specific drop from a boss......
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
For a crowd that is constantly clamoring for realism, innovation and immersion - a crowd that spends a good amount of time deriding others for being instant gratification kiddies who are lacking in patience and mentally incapable of enjoying the journey - you sure do love throwing out these curveballs to keep devs on their toes as to what in the holy fucking hell they could possibly create to satisfy you.
According to this thread, you want to sit in a spot, doing nothing, while you wait for a mob to materialize out of thin air, and you'll only do it if it won't gimp your progress any, so it has to have great XP and loot.
According to this thread, you are the sum of everything you loathe about the MMO gamer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I remember Modernagrav camping in DAoC, sitting there farming Redcaps for literally 16+ hours while chatting with the group.
Also Ellyll camping for them glowy weapons back in the day.
Its a good memory, but also mind numbingly boring.
It was only a good alternative to having to do the same thing for the 20th time (leveling a character to 50).
If the game from the beginning had been all about camping, I'd have left long ago.
It's my belief that if someone has to be forced into doing something because there is no alternative to it, its not a good mechanic. If it were as entertaining and loved as our nostalgia makes us believe, there'd be no need for the heavy handed approach.
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling our for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for m, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
Instanced zones are not the same as camping if for no other reason than the fact that two seperate groups can literally do the exact same zone. In most traditional forms of the word camping, that's not possible without one group encroaching on another group. So no, doing a dungeon is not the same as camping.
Instanced locations were designed to address MANY of the glaring shortcomings of campings. Campings are subject to the physical size of the game, population of the server, population during times, popularity of location, etc. With all of these variables, its never improbable to find a group in your desired area and then have to wait for them to finish. For most people, it's incredibly unfun to spend time making a group, going to a place, and finding out that said place is basically reserved for the next 4 hours. Instances allow me to get a group going and go to the desired place WHENEVER I want with absolutely NO potential of it being unavailable to me. Until you can design a world cheaply that can house thousands of endgame players at one single time, Instances are clearly the way to go.
As for what you are asking, actually think about that for a second. You're asking for an entire zone to be soloable. You are also asking for each zone to be large to house hundreds to thousands of people. That is an epicly massive zone, even by today's standards. If you want multiple zones? You're talking about the largest geographical MMORPG to date.
I agree that LFG dungeon crawl is very stagnant because it's always a GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B with a bunch of fighting in between. But honestly, reverting back to camping is not the answer. The answer, obviously, is make different types of instances. But in all honesty, the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability to say "Hey guys, afk a sec"
There's a whole lot of logic and sense here ---^ Good points, KB.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling our for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for m, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
Instanced zones are not the same as camping if for no other reason than the fact that two seperate groups can literally do the exact same zone. In most traditional forms of the word camping, that's not possible without one group encroaching on another group. So no, doing a dungeon is not the same as camping.
Instanced locations were designed to address MANY of the glaring shortcomings of campings. Campings are subject to the physical size of the game, population of the server, population during times, popularity of location, etc. With all of these variables, its never improbable to find a group in your desired area and then have to wait for them to finish. For most people, it's incredibly unfun to spend time making a group, going to a place, and finding out that said place is basically reserved for the next 4 hours. Instances allow me to get a group going and go to the desired place WHENEVER I want with absolutely NO potential of it being unavailable to me. Until you can design a world cheaply that can house thousands of endgame players at one single time, Instances are clearly the way to go.
As for what you are asking, actually think about that for a second. You're asking for an entire zone to be soloable. You are also asking for each zone to be large to house hundreds to thousands of people. That is an epicly massive zone, even by today's standards. If you want multiple zones? You're talking about the largest geographical MMORPG to date.
I agree that LFG dungeon crawl is very stagnant because it's always a GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B with a bunch of fighting in between. But honestly, reverting back to camping is not the answer. The answer, obviously, is make different types of instances. But in all honesty, the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability to say "Hey guys, afk a sec"
WOW.. did you even read what I wrote or just started hating everything and LOOKING for something to argue about.. There were only 2 REASONS why instancing was ever created.. 1) Waiting lines for a camp location 2) Fighting over "LOOT" from a named NPC that multiple people wanted at the same time... As I said, doing an instance dungeon crawl is the SAME mechanic as camping.. without the hassle of sharing..
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
NOW as for the last sentence you stated QUOTE: "the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability"... UM hypocrite? Pot meet Kettle.. YOU are doing that yourself.. So only your person style is allowed and not others.. OK .. Got ya, glad you cleared that up..
Lol whoa man, step back and take a chill pill. I wasn't hating on anything lol. I was just refuting your statement. This is a forum after all
"Doing an instance dungeon crawl is the SAME mechanic as camping" this is true only on the most superficial level i.e. you're fighting mobs in both areas. The point is that camping and instances are NOT the same thing if by only other virtue than the fact that you and I both can do the same instance at once where is we can't camp the same spot at once. Those are the BIGGEST difference in this discussion in regards to camping versus instances. Just because you are killing mobs in a location doesn't make them the same thing, no more than saying raids are the same as leveling because you are killing mobs in a desired location. See where I am getting at with this?
Maybe I didn't explain my second point clearly.
In the original quote, you said that you wanted a zone that was
A) 90% soloable
had ample camp locations for the groups.
Unless you meant something different, I can infer to this that you want a zone that is soloable for 90% of the zone, and also large enough to give ample camp locations.
Here's the problem. How many people are you talking? Most servers can handle like 5k people at any given time. Since most of the content happens at end game, most of the players are at max level. So you need a zone theoretically large enough to house most of the 5k at once to be large enough to provide ample camp locations for every single person. Thats a pretty hefty zone. Unless you are talking about different game features to lesson the size of that, say instances. And I will go out on a limb and say yea, they were probably either instancing or in other zones for a variety of other reasons (one zone is too crowded which is exactly the problem here, personal preference etc)
I never said it was. I'm not arguing about my personal playstyle, I'm arguing that Instances are simply a better game mechanic than camping on a multitude of level, none of which bring in my personal feelings. I honestly couldn't care less if the game was all instances or all camping as long as it was tailored to do it well.
You brought up your personal problems with instancing, one of which being that you sometimes need to leave the keyboard, and because of that you prefer camping. I responded by saying that a game shouldn't be tailored on an awful mechanic like camping because someone like you doesn't like having to get up and leave the keyboard in the middle of an instance.
Rare spawns are fun when you have to hunt (search) for them, not when you sit in a place for hours waiting for them to spawn.
What MMOs need back is the feeling of the hunt, not camping.
OK.. again I have to point out the obvious here... Lets take WoW "Deadmines" instance dungeon as the example.. What would be the difference between repeating that dungeon over and over and over and over, "camping" the bosses in there for specific loot to drop, or just having a simple UP FRONT camp like it was in the days of EQ...
BTW.. You can't use the excuse of sharing the location, because I already addressed that.. Camping a location is the same bloody thing as farming an instance dungeon, we all have done thousands of times... I can't begin to count how many times I farmed instances for a specific drop from a boss......
Sharing locations is entirely the point.
The main difference is that if YOU are instancing for a boss in deadmines, I can instance a boss in deadmines AS WELL, and neither of us is going to encroach on one another. In a camping scenario, one boss spawns, and one of us is going to lay claim, which means anyone else is going to have to wait for the next one. Thats almost entirely the reason (among others) that camping was dealt away with
Yes, need to bring back rare spawns hat take people a long time to figure out. Some Examples from FFXI:
Mob spawns invisible and can only be claimed by linking with a visible mob in that area to draw him out.
Mob spawns during certain weather/moon phase/daytime/season.
Mob spawns from killing a certain type or multiple types of mobs in an area.
Mob spawns by killing another rare spawn when using special abilities or use items on them.
The list can go on...
We need things like Absolute Virtue from FFXI again. The process of finding out how to spawn it, then how to defeat it was a huge community effort and is just showing how involved people can get in a game if you give them a real challenge not stupid quest grinds.
If you meant experience party camps, then you get a resounding yes from me too. I hope FFX|V will deliver on that, seeing as it gives experience chain bonus, party bonus and from exploration i know there are areas that are just made to be camps.
Cheers
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
Originally posted by Daring No way. I remember waiting hours just for a group to camp in FFXI. Never again.
There is your problem, you waited. I made a group and usually left for camp within 30 minutes. Certainly under an hour.
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz Unfortunately, I can guarantee this will not be making a return anytime soon. MMOs are not made for people like us who played them when they were niche. They are aimed at the mainstream 12-18 year olds who were born on WoW. They don't have the patience to camp. They want linear quest chains that give them gear.
lol quests are linear? What do you call sitting at a camp site for 8 hours? I guess it's not linear because linear requires some movement. Camping can be fun, but please don't try to pretend like it's some how a more refined and adult way of grinding.
Camping is much more interesting and exciting than quest grinding because shit can and will happen. You have bad pulls, fights that go wrong for various reasons, and fun social interaction with your group members all the way through. You have to move camps, share camps, it's just a very social and fun experience.
Quest grinding is the most boring activity and boils down to clicking a few buttons for rewards. There is no challenge in modern day quest grinding games, some even go so far as to automatically walk you to NPCs and Mobs. The only thing they don't do yet is kill the mobs for you but that is really not a big problem since they are so trivial you can kill them while watching a movie.
Quest grinding is a cancer that needs to be cut out.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.
Nobody want to gimp their progress just to bring back old memories. I'm sure what's being discussed is a game where it's the best viable way to progress for everyone.
They are not talking about it being the best viable option for progression... think about that for a moment. Gesus!
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Camping is evil, yes, i want rare spawns to return, but not the static spawnpoints, they should spawn at more random points in a zone, and at more random moments.
Please stay away from forced camping mobs. I got a real life these days, and dont want to be spending hours and hours wayting for a single shot at some loot.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
But this is something you can still do today without camping. You could always do it. You don't have to have mandated down-time to talk to people you enjoy being around. I fail to see why so many people think that this bad mechanic is the only way to get a favorable social result.
Yet isn't that the choice of the individual? If that's what other people want to do, what business is it of yours? You can stop and shoot the breeze any time you want to, it's your choice. You have no right to force your choices on anyone else.
You can casually play the game and socialize with anyone you want to in any game out there, what are you talking about?
That's always been the way it's worked, sorry. Businesses are in business to make money and they do that by appealing to the largest audience possible. It's just that there is a larger audience available since MMOs went mainstream.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
They've been patched away because the majority of players didn't like them like that. Why is that so hard for you people to understand?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Oh we understand it all right, we just do not like it and are still disappointed by the shortsightedness of the developers. I could make a personal attack here but I will leave that to you.
It won't take many titles to get it right to see it's effect of more social MMOs.
Quests i would be doing or not:
Collecting 10 stone/wood/etc what the empire is needing and really can using. // hell yeah
killing 10 bandits that want to attack a little village, and if i dont kill them their will really attack the village // hm mabye, if im in the mood and the price is right.
killing 10 rats for gold and xp. // hell no
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Camps? -No.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
OK peeps.. I have some news for you.. especially for the ones that are anti-camp posters...... LFG dungeon is the same thing as camping...... HELLO.. The only difference is that you have your own private camp that doesn't respawn vs. one that is in the open zone.. Yelling out for a camp check as it was back in the day of EQ, could of been a pain during prime time.. Even I took a number in line, but it is what it is.. That doesn't mean that "camping" is bad, it just means there aren't enough locations for everyone.. So instead of protesting that camping is bad, why not ask for more camp locations.. Why do you think instancing was created.. It was the CHEAP easy way of giving everyone a "camp" location with a click of a button..
Now as for what some of us are asking, at least for me, is that I advocate that everyone should be able to solo 90% of the zone.. While making sure that there are ample camp locations for the groups.. I do like how the one person suggested random spawns inside the camp.. That was done to some degree with EQ, but I would like to see it taken a little farther.. Instead of 1 random mob spawning, maybe allow 2 or 3 randoms.. This will spice things up.. I might even suggest changing the timer per spawn location, and not just ONE timer for all.. This way you can't seriously time with accuracy..
The thing I don't like about doing the LFG dungeon craw stuff is that you are always on the move, and if for some reason I have to take a break or get distracted, the group has to wait as well.. With camps, once it's broken, normally it's easy for one or more to not be present in the fight.. Doorbell rings, not everything is lost.. I for one get tired of button mashing NON stop too with the fast paced combat we have now.. YES, I like to sit and rest between fights.. Personally I find it insane and crazy for a caster to wipe out 20 mobs in a pull, go OOM, then eat a biscuit and be back to full power in seconds.. Really? Ha Ha Ha.. Today's mmo feel like an arcade shooting gallery.. It's like going to the grocery store and say you went hunting for food.. lol
Instanced zones are not the same as camping if for no other reason than the fact that two seperate groups can literally do the exact same zone. In most traditional forms of the word camping, that's not possible without one group encroaching on another group. So no, doing a dungeon is not the same as camping.
Instanced locations were designed to address MANY of the glaring shortcomings of campings. Campings are subject to the physical size of the game, population of the server, population during times, popularity of location, etc. With all of these variables, its never improbable to find a group in your desired area and then have to wait for them to finish. For most people, it's incredibly unfun to spend time making a group, going to a place, and finding out that said place is basically reserved for the next 4 hours. Instances allow me to get a group going and go to the desired place WHENEVER I want with absolutely NO potential of it being unavailable to me. Until you can design a world cheaply that can house thousands of endgame players at one single time, Instances are clearly the way to go.
As for what you are asking, actually think about that for a second. You're asking for an entire zone to be soloable. You are also asking for each zone to be large to house hundreds to thousands of people. That is an epicly massive zone, even by today's standards. If you want multiple zones? You're talking about the largest geographical MMORPG to date.
I agree that LFG dungeon crawl is very stagnant because it's always a GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B with a bunch of fighting in between. But honestly, reverting back to camping is not the answer. The answer, obviously, is make different types of instances. But in all honesty, the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability to say "Hey guys, afk a sec"
+1
For good reason. Have you actually played that game Pre WoTG?
Do you remember when in ToAU there were only like 10 ample camp locations that were supposed to house the entire level 75 player base?
Do you remember how each single dynamis was unavailable to the REST of the server for 2 hours whenever someone (literally could have been just 1 person) was in it?
Do you remember how there were like 5 different linkshells camping King Behemoth, Fafnir, and Niddhog?
Do you remember all of the other really good Notorious Monsters that you had to wait to be killed by another LS before you could even start?
75% of my time spent playing that game was quite literally just waiting for other people to finish their stuff so I could do my thing.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
WOW.. did you even read what I wrote or just started hating everything and LOOKING for something to argue about.. There were only 2 REASONS why instancing was ever created.. 1) Waiting lines for a camp location 2) Fighting over "LOOT" from a named NPC that multiple people wanted at the same time... As I said, doing an instance dungeon crawl is the SAME mechanic as camping.. without the hassle of sharing..
Now as for your response that instancing takes off the population pressure of having hundreds if not thousands of characters in the same zone...... OMFGGGGGGGGGG What game are you playing that ever came close to that? I have never seen Rift, TOR and GW2 end zones or any zone have hundreds to thousands of people IN that zone fighting.. And don't even dare to tell me it's because they are all busy instancing..
NOW as for the last sentence you stated QUOTE: "the game shouldn't be designed around your personal inability"... UM hypocrite? Pot meet Kettle.. YOU are doing that yourself.. So only your person style is allowed and not others.. OK .. Got ya, glad you cleared that up..
OK.. again I have to point out the obvious here... Lets take WoW "Deadmines" instance dungeon as the example.. What would be the difference between repeating that dungeon over and over and over and over, "camping" the bosses in there for specific loot to drop, or just having a simple UP FRONT camp like it was in the days of EQ...
BTW.. You can't use the excuse of sharing the location, because I already addressed that.. Camping a location is the same bloody thing as farming an instance dungeon, we all have done thousands of times... I can't begin to count how many times I farmed instances for a specific drop from a boss......
9 years ago (and before that), instancing was indeed a good way to let players enjoy content without lagging their socks off. I'm surprised it's hard to comprehend.....
For a crowd that is constantly clamoring for realism, innovation and immersion - a crowd that spends a good amount of time deriding others for being instant gratification kiddies who are lacking in patience and mentally incapable of enjoying the journey - you sure do love throwing out these curveballs to keep devs on their toes as to what in the holy fucking hell they could possibly create to satisfy you.
According to this thread, you want to sit in a spot, doing nothing, while you wait for a mob to materialize out of thin air, and you'll only do it if it won't gimp your progress any, so it has to have great XP and loot.
According to this thread, you are the sum of everything you loathe about the MMO gamer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I remember Modernagrav camping in DAoC, sitting there farming Redcaps for literally 16+ hours while chatting with the group.
Also Ellyll camping for them glowy weapons back in the day.
Its a good memory, but also mind numbingly boring.
It was only a good alternative to having to do the same thing for the 20th time (leveling a character to 50).
If the game from the beginning had been all about camping, I'd have left long ago.
It's my belief that if someone has to be forced into doing something because there is no alternative to it, its not a good mechanic. If it were as entertaining and loved as our nostalgia makes us believe, there'd be no need for the heavy handed approach.
There's a whole lot of logic and sense here ---^ Good points, KB.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lol whoa man, step back and take a chill pill. I wasn't hating on anything lol. I was just refuting your statement. This is a forum after all
"Doing an instance dungeon crawl is the SAME mechanic as camping" this is true only on the most superficial level i.e. you're fighting mobs in both areas. The point is that camping and instances are NOT the same thing if by only other virtue than the fact that you and I both can do the same instance at once where is we can't camp the same spot at once. Those are the BIGGEST difference in this discussion in regards to camping versus instances. Just because you are killing mobs in a location doesn't make them the same thing, no more than saying raids are the same as leveling because you are killing mobs in a desired location. See where I am getting at with this?
Maybe I didn't explain my second point clearly.
In the original quote, you said that you wanted a zone that was
A) 90% soloable
Unless you meant something different, I can infer to this that you want a zone that is soloable for 90% of the zone, and also large enough to give ample camp locations.
Here's the problem. How many people are you talking? Most servers can handle like 5k people at any given time. Since most of the content happens at end game, most of the players are at max level. So you need a zone theoretically large enough to house most of the 5k at once to be large enough to provide ample camp locations for every single person. Thats a pretty hefty zone. Unless you are talking about different game features to lesson the size of that, say instances. And I will go out on a limb and say yea, they were probably either instancing or in other zones for a variety of other reasons (one zone is too crowded which is exactly the problem here, personal preference etc)
I never said it was. I'm not arguing about my personal playstyle, I'm arguing that Instances are simply a better game mechanic than camping on a multitude of level, none of which bring in my personal feelings. I honestly couldn't care less if the game was all instances or all camping as long as it was tailored to do it well.
You brought up your personal problems with instancing, one of which being that you sometimes need to leave the keyboard, and because of that you prefer camping. I responded by saying that a game shouldn't be tailored on an awful mechanic like camping because someone like you doesn't like having to get up and leave the keyboard in the middle of an instance.
Sharing locations is entirely the point.
The main difference is that if YOU are instancing for a boss in deadmines, I can instance a boss in deadmines AS WELL, and neither of us is going to encroach on one another. In a camping scenario, one boss spawns, and one of us is going to lay claim, which means anyone else is going to have to wait for the next one. Thats almost entirely the reason (among others) that camping was dealt away with
Yes, need to bring back rare spawns hat take people a long time to figure out. Some Examples from FFXI:
Mob spawns invisible and can only be claimed by linking with a visible mob in that area to draw him out.
Mob spawns during certain weather/moon phase/daytime/season.
Mob spawns from killing a certain type or multiple types of mobs in an area.
Mob spawns by killing another rare spawn when using special abilities or use items on them.
The list can go on...
We need things like Absolute Virtue from FFXI again. The process of finding out how to spawn it, then how to defeat it was a huge community effort and is just showing how involved people can get in a game if you give them a real challenge not stupid quest grinds.
If you meant experience party camps, then you get a resounding yes from me too. I hope FFX|V will deliver on that, seeing as it gives experience chain bonus, party bonus and from exploration i know there are areas that are just made to be camps.
Cheers
Camping is much more interesting and exciting than quest grinding because shit can and will happen. You have bad pulls, fights that go wrong for various reasons, and fun social interaction with your group members all the way through. You have to move camps, share camps, it's just a very social and fun experience.
Quest grinding is the most boring activity and boils down to clicking a few buttons for rewards. There is no challenge in modern day quest grinding games, some even go so far as to automatically walk you to NPCs and Mobs. The only thing they don't do yet is kill the mobs for you but that is really not a big problem since they are so trivial you can kill them while watching a movie.
Quest grinding is a cancer that needs to be cut out.
They are not talking about it being the best viable option for progression... think about that for a moment. Gesus!
Camping is evil, yes, i want rare spawns to return, but not the static spawnpoints, they should spawn at more random points in a zone, and at more random moments.
Please stay away from forced camping mobs. I got a real life these days, and dont want to be spending hours and hours wayting for a single shot at some loot.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)