Sandboxes are about sand. Sand is player-controlled or player-created game elements.
That's it. That's the origin of the term, that sandboxes are sandboxes because they are malleable.
I've been trying to explain that for pages now. I'm not sure why the term sandbox is so challenging to understand for some people.
The name gives the definition and the definition is simple. It's like someone asking why a section of road is called "dead man's curve" and then arguing some convoluted definition of what a dead man is.
Maybe they need a picture to help them understand the definition. Kids these days . . .
As seen below, you are given sand (aka the environment, aka the game world).
And you are given tools with which to manipulate that environment.
Housing is not a sandbox or themepark feature. It can exist in either. However, a sandbox will let you build your own house in whatever manner the tools allow, whereas a themepark housing feature might give you a handful of choices or give you limited methods of creating your house.
There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.
Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.
We all agree on what is a dog. We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.
All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one.
Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is as it relates to a video game and only offer ther different, sometimes very different definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
LIkely why Smedly has just stated Sandbox style, rather than outright sandbox because even he gets that no one agrees on exactly what is a sandbox video game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.
Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.
We all agree on what is a dog. We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.
All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one.
Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.
There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.
Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.
We all agree on what is a dog. We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.
All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one.
Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.
And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions. So... yeah.
All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you.
All I'm saying is the other posts do not.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.
Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.
We all agree on what is a dog. We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.
All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one.
Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.
And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions. So... yeah.
All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you.
All I'm saying is the other posts do not.
Clearly you don't get what a sandbox is or have a downright silly thought of what one is (saying you do and are just for arguing for the sake of others wouldn't be true).
Despite many people explaining to you on what the majority of gamers know to be the correct definition, the definition that was used when sandbox was first applied as a term, the definition that makes the most logical sense with the name, and the definition that the majority accept as correct.
So I guess this is where we part ways with me still fully understanding the term and therefore understanding exactly what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature and you forever confused on what a sandbox feature is. So be it. I just feel like the guy sitting next to the donkey.
There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.
Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.
We all agree on what is a dog. We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.
All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one.
Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.
And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions. So... yeah.
All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you.
All I'm saying is the other posts do not.
Clearly you don't get what a sandbox is or have a downright silly thought of what one is (saying you do and are just for arguing for the sake of others wouldn't be true).
Despite many people explaining to you on what the majority of gamers know to be the correct definition, the definition that was used when sandbox was first applied as a term, the definition that makes the most logical sense with the name, and the definition that the majority accept as correct.
So I guess this is where we part ways with me still fully understanding the term and therefore understanding exactly what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature and you forever confused on what a sandbox feature is. So be it. I just feel like the guy sitting next to the donkey who is insisting that Kevin Bacon wasn't in (the original) footloose in the family guy cut-scene so there is no point in trying to explain this to you.
Once again. The majority of gamers don't know the correct defintion, only their definition which is, more often than not, contradicatory to other gamers definitions.
Also I didn't state nor imply I don't understand what people mean. I have my definition, I have never stated it in this thread, as the thread was about how features are implemented.
There is no commonly accepted or majority defintion that was ever in use, that the majority have ever accepted, despite what you think you know.
All you are saying is you fully understand what you believe to the definition, and you gather support from other people that agree with you, ignoring others that don't. Thats it.
What you believe may not be right.
Feels like a religious argument.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Sandbox, traditionally, is being able to create and/or modify the world. Generally, this is done via quest creation, dungeon creation, and some sort of housing/tradeskill element. However, it doesn't stop there. Sandbox can also be the option granted to the player. With Themepark games, you have a more set path that you must take in order to reach the "end", whether it be cap level, raiding, whatever. For the most part, this is done by quests...scrub that, errands or tasks. Kill X, Collect Y, Talk with Z. You finish the the errands in a certain area, or hub, and you're then sent to another hub to repeat the process. You're on the developers ride, not your own.
In a sandbox game, you generally have a few more options. While they're similar to themepark, they're more thempark-lite with a dash of sandbox. You start off in your "newbie" area or starting city, you reach or exceed the level for that area, and then are left with an option: Move on to the next zone, which is normally next to or close to the one you're in, or do you attempt to reach another zone; like another city? That was one of the greatest strengths of Everquest before POP. No central hub for transportation. You either got a Druid or Wizard to pick you up, or you made the walk or annoyingly-always-broken boat ride.
Don't get me wrong, Themepark isn't bad, it just isn't filling. You reach the end of the ride and are forced to either grind away gear or raids, or ride the ride again with another character.
TLDR Version
A sandbox feature is any feature that allows the player to play the game within their desires and path, not the path set forth by the devs. This can be housing and tradeskills, content-creation, or just allowing the player to experience the world with minimal limitation.
(Don't misconstrue this as being without restrictions. Restrictions are necessary to prevent programming problems and balance issues. We currently don't have the technology to let players do whatever they want in an MMO enviroment without causing massive problems with the servers or the game itself. Each game needs a set base of guidelines that must be adhered to)
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
A sandbox feature is directly related to player's ability to change or impact the persistent game world. A game world can have many features and not all of them have to be sandbox features. Non-sandbox features can support sandbox features and vice versa.
I do think that a sandbox game needs to be in a persistent world. However, even some heavily instanced game worlds do have sandbox-like features, like persistent auction house that works as a global marketplace.
Another sandbox-like feature is a mission creation system, like in Anarchy Online, where players can create content on demand. This content is instanced, but uses a persistent world for distribution.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Maybe they need a picture to help them understand the definition. Kids these days . . .
As seen below, you are given sand (aka the environment, aka the game world).
And you are given tools with which to manipulate that environment.
Housing is not a sandbox or themepark feature. It can exist in either. However, a sandbox will let you build your own house in whatever manner the tools allow, whereas a themepark housing feature might give you a handful of choices or give you limited methods of creating your house.
Exactly.
It's so simple and obvious, it's frustrating to hear people repeatedly not understand it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Maybe they need a picture to help them understand the definition. Kids these days . . .
As seen below, you are given sand (aka the environment, aka the game world).
And you are given tools with which to manipulate that environment.
Housing is not a sandbox or themepark feature. It can exist in either. However, a sandbox will let you build your own house in whatever manner the tools allow, whereas a themepark housing feature might give you a handful of choices or give you limited methods of creating your house.
Exactly.
It's so simple and obvious, it's frustrating to hear people repeatedly not understand it.
Rusque and Axehilt nailed it. Way too many people consider their favorite results of sandbox gameplay to be their definition of sandbox gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Maybe they need a picture to help them understand the definition. Kids these days . . .
As seen below, you are given sand (aka the environment, aka the game world).
And you are given tools with which to manipulate that environment.
Housing is not a sandbox or themepark feature. It can exist in either. However, a sandbox will let you build your own house in whatever manner the tools allow, whereas a themepark housing feature might give you a handful of choices or give you limited methods of creating your house.
Different experiences then. I say the exact opposite. There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree. I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is as it relates to a video game and only offer ther different, sometimes very different definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.
LIkely why Smedly has just stated Sandbox style, rather than outright sandbox because even he gets that no one agrees on exactly what is a sandbox video game.
Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.
And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions. So... yeah.
All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you.
All I'm saying is the other posts do not.
Clearly you don't get what a sandbox is or have a downright silly thought of what one is (saying you do and are just for arguing for the sake of others wouldn't be true).
Despite many people explaining to you on what the majority of gamers know to be the correct definition, the definition that was used when sandbox was first applied as a term, the definition that makes the most logical sense with the name, and the definition that the majority accept as correct.
So I guess this is where we part ways with me still fully understanding the term and therefore understanding exactly what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature and you forever confused on what a sandbox feature is. So be it. I just feel like the guy sitting next to the donkey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
Once again. The majority of gamers don't know the correct defintion, only their definition which is, more often than not, contradicatory to other gamers definitions.
Also I didn't state nor imply I don't understand what people mean. I have my definition, I have never stated it in this thread, as the thread was about how features are implemented.
There is no commonly accepted or majority defintion that was ever in use, that the majority have ever accepted, despite what you think you know.
All you are saying is you fully understand what you believe to the definition, and you gather support from other people that agree with you, ignoring others that don't. Thats it.
What you believe may not be right.
Feels like a religious argument.
Sandbox, traditionally, is being able to create and/or modify the world. Generally, this is done via quest creation, dungeon creation, and some sort of housing/tradeskill element. However, it doesn't stop there. Sandbox can also be the option granted to the player. With Themepark games, you have a more set path that you must take in order to reach the "end", whether it be cap level, raiding, whatever. For the most part, this is done by quests...scrub that, errands or tasks. Kill X, Collect Y, Talk with Z. You finish the the errands in a certain area, or hub, and you're then sent to another hub to repeat the process. You're on the developers ride, not your own.
In a sandbox game, you generally have a few more options. While they're similar to themepark, they're more thempark-lite with a dash of sandbox. You start off in your "newbie" area or starting city, you reach or exceed the level for that area, and then are left with an option: Move on to the next zone, which is normally next to or close to the one you're in, or do you attempt to reach another zone; like another city? That was one of the greatest strengths of Everquest before POP. No central hub for transportation. You either got a Druid or Wizard to pick you up, or you made the walk or annoyingly-always-broken boat ride.
Don't get me wrong, Themepark isn't bad, it just isn't filling. You reach the end of the ride and are forced to either grind away gear or raids, or ride the ride again with another character.
TLDR Version
A sandbox feature is any feature that allows the player to play the game within their desires and path, not the path set forth by the devs. This can be housing and tradeskills, content-creation, or just allowing the player to experience the world with minimal limitation.
(Don't misconstrue this as being without restrictions. Restrictions are necessary to prevent programming problems and balance issues. We currently don't have the technology to let players do whatever they want in an MMO enviroment without causing massive problems with the servers or the game itself. Each game needs a set base of guidelines that must be adhered to)
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
A sandbox feature is directly related to player's ability to change or impact the persistent game world. A game world can have many features and not all of them have to be sandbox features. Non-sandbox features can support sandbox features and vice versa.
I do think that a sandbox game needs to be in a persistent world. However, even some heavily instanced game worlds do have sandbox-like features, like persistent auction house that works as a global marketplace.
Another sandbox-like feature is a mission creation system, like in Anarchy Online, where players can create content on demand. This content is instanced, but uses a persistent world for distribution.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Exactly.
It's so simple and obvious, it's frustrating to hear people repeatedly not understand it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Rusque and Axehilt nailed it. Way too many people consider their favorite results of sandbox gameplay to be their definition of sandbox gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre