Do you guys think that kind of game would appeal to you?
Really no idea, but after many years of playing level- or otherwise progression-centric RPGs, I'd really like to try it.
Ya I think it would be fun.
Ice-Vortex repeated my same thoughts. Vertical systems create barriers in the community playing the game, make new players feel that they're too far behind, creates a world where most of the content is "useless" etc etc.
I think you can have a lot of fun in game that doesn't have this kind of vertical progression.
Gear that is more about customizing your character's abilities in combat instead of a +stat grind. A whole world that is dangerous and worth exploring, even after you've played the game for years. Game play that is fun for the sake of playing the game itself. Building communities. Having events. Mastering a combat role. Perfecting a crafting skill, etc.
You can have all that without an arbitrary level system that forces the players to feel like they're "working" instead of playing, and causing barriers between players that isn't needed.
Originally posted by ice-vortex I fully support a horizontal progression system. Instead of getting more powerful, you simply get more choice and flexibility in your builds.
No. Horizontal progression is the death of games. See GW2. It's player base dropped dramatically because there was NOTHING TO DO AFTER 1 WEEK OF PLAY. You got to level 80 and literally nothing mattered because you could never get any better. Just look different/silly
Couldnt agree more. Horizontal progression is NOT progression. Its basically the MMO equivalent of socialism and trying to confuse the masses into thinking they're getting ahead when they really arent.
Its just like in RL if someone says they got a new position within the company, and you say "oh you got a promotion" and they respond with, "well no it was more of a side step".
Socialism? Are you serious? Having the freedom to choose what you want to do and how you want to do it is socialist to you? If so then you're the text book example of why the US in terms of freedom is going down the shitter faster than the overall temperature of the Universe.
Horizontal progression with maybe some localized vertical progression (like EVE's skill levels) would work best but seeing as how EQN is catering to the lowest common denominators I'd say it's a pretty safe bet the only sandbox elements in the game will be (maybe) territory control (just like how the above likes his freedom, positively fascist).
Yes, i am quite serious. Perhaps i should have elaborated further. This idea that horizontal progression somehow gives you more "freedom" is a load of crap. You have just as much freedom in a vertical progression game, Rift proved that. Lets see, i dont want to tank today, ill go DPS, or support, or heals, or whatever i want because i have freedom to choose what class and talents i can pick. Oh look, i have dozens of gear loadout slots, plenty of spec tree load out slots, which i can switch between at will, at any time.
Now, as to i why i equate it to socialism, its because it has this mentality of "nobody can really get BETTER than anyone else, because thats not fair, and everyone should be equal." Please, try to argue that is false. In games like GW2 they constantly try to pound out that oh well you will LOOK different, but you wont actually perform any better, do any more damage, have any more health, or be BETTER in any way. Bam, Socialism, right there. No sir we can't let you own that ferrari even though you worked twice as hard, put in 3 times as much time into earning the money to pay for it as the guy standing next to you because that would be unfair to him.
If i spend 50 hours a week making widgets to sell, and you only spend 35 hours a week, i get to sell more widgets than you, which means i get to make more money, which means i get to buy more or better stuff. Thats how it works, or at least how it should work. But all the whineasses have cried and pissed and moaned because they dont want to feel less than someone who invests more time and effort into the game, because they dont want to give up whatever other aspects of their life that the person they're complaining about did. You want to be able to spend friday and saturday at the club, thats fine, but thats your decision, don't begrudge the guy who doesnt like that scene who would rather invest those 4-8 hours into an mmo.
You decided to have children, or you have a working life, (like i do), guess what, thats part of your reality. Just like you don't get to bring your crying ass child to the theater to watch the next Die Hard movie without looking like an asshole and pissing everyone else, you dont get to cry about not being to invest 40 hours a week into a game lke a hardcore raider can, without being an asshole and pissing everyone off. You can still get that same gear but you're going to get it slower. He might get his full set in 5 weeks, it might take you 12, but no, thats not "fair".
This is what i miss the most about EQ1. Many of us, and at that time i was one of them, couldnt invest the time that the hardcore raiders could into the game. We still raided, we raided slightly older content, and we did it less frequently, but we still raided and had fun. And very few of the hardcore guys were elitists. I can't tell you how many times i watched guys from afterlife take 2 hours or more out of their day to come help us recover our corpses after a full raid wipe in fear. Or come tank a boss we were having trouble with, etc etc. Rather than being hated for their "wealth" they were respected for their efforts and skill.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
How would you feel about Everquest Next having no Player Character Levels unlike EQ1&2?
Levels have been a key part of themepark MMO pathing concept.
But moving towards a more free roam design to the game, it would make sense to be able to go anywhere and fight anything regardless of a level number next to character's head that requires a useless grind to unlock parts of the world to explore.
Well a Levelless system would allow players from their first time playing, to explore and go anywhere in the game to progress and enjoy themselves, rather being locked to a limit of locations like in a themepark design MMO.
Whats your opinion on this? Do you support such a thing?
There is a somewhat caution to the idea though. I believe it was GW2 (a Very Very Popular themepark MMO) that at first designed the game to allow players to scale in level in any part of the game including the game world. Which allow players from day 1 to go anywhere and do any event they choose. Talk about exploration.
But some reason this idea was scrapped. Had to be a reason that is negative. Could such a reason apply to a Sandbox Everquest Next?
Yes yes share your thoughts and vote on this discussion.
As with most polls on these forums, my answer isn't there.
I am a fan of eq/eq2.
But I can't in good conscience say whether I can support a levelling or lvl-less system without knowing what it entails. Whether the system is fun or not is my determining factor. I have played levelling games where the levelling sucked. I have played skill-based games that sucked. I have played lvling games which were awesome, I have played skill-based games which were awesome.
So how could I decide without having any concept of how the hypothetical system works?
Beside, to me, whatever system they put in place, it is simply a mathematical representation of what content you can or cannot complete. I.E., you will die if you try 'x' mob at lvl 10, but at lvl 15 it is a cake walk. vs. you will die if you don't have a combat skill such as swordsmanship at 100 but at 150 it is a cake walk.
To me its all the same thing with different labels and thus, my determining factor is 'did the developers make a system which = entertainment'.
How would you feel about Everquest Next having no Player Character Levels unlike EQ1&2?
Levels have been a key part of themepark MMO pathing concept.
But moving towards a more free roam design to the game, it would make sense to be able to go anywhere and fight anything regardless of a level number next to character's head that requires a useless grind to unlock parts of the world to explore.
Well a Levelless system would allow players from their first time playing, to explore and go anywhere in the game to progress and enjoy themselves, rather being locked to a limit of locations like in a themepark design MMO.
Whats your opinion on this? Do you support such a thing?
There is a somewhat caution to the idea though. I believe it was GW2 (a Very Very Popular themepark MMO) that at first designed the game to allow players to scale in level in any part of the game including the game world. Which allow players from day 1 to go anywhere and do any event they choose. Talk about exploration.
But some reason this idea was scrapped. Had to be a reason that is negative. Could such a reason apply to a Sandbox Everquest Next?
Yes yes share your thoughts and vote on this discussion.
As with most polls on these forums, my answer isn't there.
I am a fan of eq/eq2.
But I can't in good conscience say whether I can support a levelling or lvl-less system without knowing what it entails. Whether the system is fun or not is my determining factor. I have played levelling games where the levelling sucked. I have played skill-based games that sucked. I have played lvling games which were awesome, I have played skill-based games which were awesome.
So how could I decide without having any concept of how the hypothetical system works?
Beside, to me, whatever system they put in place, it is simply a mathematical representation of what content you can or cannot complete. I.E., you will die if you try 'x' mob at lvl 10, but at lvl 15 it is a cake walk. vs. you will die if you don't have a combat skill such as swordsmanship at 100 but at 150 it is a cake walk.
To me its all the same thing with different labels and thus, my determining factor is 'did the developers make a system which = entertainment'.
You seem to suggest that there are only two systems (Skill and level), but then you use a level-based skill system as an example. A level-less system would be a game where your skill as a player mattered the most. The OP isn't talking about the alternative to a leveling system, (skill point system) which is just a leveling system with a different flavor.
Think more of the Legend of Zelda. No levels, or "skill point" raising. Combat with aiming, dodging, using skills at right time, team work, coordination, etc, being the key factors of a fight.
Not how many levels you have or how many skill points you put into swordsmen.
I dont understand this : I am a EQ1||2 fan and support a levelless EQN Sandbox
In all your poll options you mention levelless, what is that, less levels or what?
Skill based gameplay. Where you're ability to play well and work as a team is the main factor in your battle success. As opposed to level system, where no matter how hard you try, a lvl 6 EQ player can not beat a lvl 45 mob.
I dont understand this : I am a EQ1||2 fan and support a levelless EQN Sandbox
In all your poll options you mention levelless, what is that, less levels or what?
Skill based gameplay. Where you're ability to play well and work as a team is the main factor in your battle success. As opposed to level system, where no matter how hard you try, a lvl 6 EQ player can not beat a lvl 45 mob.
Well I know what skillbased games are ,my first mmo was Asherons Call very skill based game. you still mention level 6 player not beeing able to beat level 45 mob?
I dont understand this : I am a EQ1||2 fan and support a levelless EQN Sandbox
In all your poll options you mention levelless, what is that, less levels or what?
Skill based gameplay. Where you're ability to play well and work as a team is the main factor in your battle success. As opposed to level system, where no matter how hard you try, a lvl 6 EQ player can not beat a lvl 45 mob.
Well I know what skillbased games are ,my first mmo was Asherons Call very skill based game. you still mention level 6 player not beeing able to beat level 45 mob?
Yes, a level/skill point system arbitrarily dictates the enemies you can face and win and the enemies that are worth, and not worth, facing.
I think you're confusing Skill (Player's personal talent) with "Skill Point" system, where you play a game and raise "Skills" or you spend "points" that you earned to buy "New spells and Skills". (AKA make-your-own-class)
Swing your sword 15 times and you get 1 more sword skill DING ! it is pretty much the exact same thing as a level up....Making your character more powerful it is what you are doing regardless
Swing your sword 15 times and you get 1 more sword skill DING ! it is pretty much the exact same thing as a level up....Making your character more powerful it is what you are doing regardless
Ya exactly. Which is different than what the OP is talking about.
Or
You "level up" and get to pick a "new skill" from a Skill Tree.
But neither what you said, nor what I just said, is what the OP is talking about.
Well Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen would clearly be epic battles that take multiple groups of people to win at.
Where a small group of adventurers could wade through Crush bone fighting orcs.
Even the mightiest warriors are still vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. Gandalf stood toe to toe with the mighty Balrog, but a stray arrow from a goblin hitting his neck, or sword in his back from an orc would have killed him just the same.
Which goes to my realism of combat comments. At what point does a knight or a wizard become immune to getting hit in the head by an orc's mace? I suspect never. Yet this is common place in MMORPGs... lol.
Let me ask you something.
I can log into EQ right now, and as a ranger I can melee auto attack Lord Nagefen and Lady Vox to death without any thought, solo, because of the level system and it's effect on the game world.
In a vertical leveling system, eventually a swarm of Crush bone orcs are unable to you kill and eventually gods and dragons are unable to kill you.
How can YOU rationalize this?
Nice post. I really hate the above-mentioned flaws in RPGs. I'm pretty sure 50 orcs swarming you would beat pretty much anyone to death.
I think the GW2 system with the down-levelling was a baby-step in the right direction. It was kind of a shoddy design and implementation, but a good first effort in keeping older content playable.
The single biggest problem with MMOs as they grow and expand is dead zones. Let's not even get into the dead level ranges, which I think you guys mentioned already. There's no way to add content without adding new zones and expanding the world, at some point. So, they have to stop following this same old formula, and make the entire world viable for players of all ranges and styles.
The real problem with sideways progression is that there really isn't enough variety and diversity. In most games that have tried this you feel like you gain nothing. There needs to be a diverse list of abilities that do drastically different things, etc. Which means the game has to have a ton of options that are designed to be vastly different. I don't mean just aesthetically, either(GW2), but actually different.
Which also leaves us with gear. People want better gear, period. Which means tons of diverse gear and weapon effects, etc. I think EQ already had a fair amount of cool weapons back in the old days. Weapons that processed stun or root or snare, etc. are a good example of weapon diversity.
GW2 had the right idea with many things. They just did a fairly miserable job of putting those ideas into the game. Progression in GW2 was nothing but a few graphical effects here and there(yes, I know they had different armor sets with set bonuses, etc.)
All in all, I'd love to see a more skill-based; less level-based system. But, it really all falls on the shoulders of the developers to make the skills and effects you can obtain greatly and directly impact gameplay. We need to get ouf of the "passive" systems that games like WoW, etc. have(though, even WoW got rid of their passive talents at least).
Some simple example:
-if Vox drops an ice dagger that imbues ice attacks with a snare/stun,etc. Then maybe there's an ice dagger that drops in some "low level" area(blackburrow, etc.) that can be used to cauterize bleed effects on yourself/team members, etc.
Point being, something that would be desirable at least situationally. I think there should be some named/boss mobs that drop specific items, but I think there also needs to be a fair amount of world-drops so that people don't confine themselves to any particular area. Let people be free to roam and drift wherever they want to, to group with anyone and everyone around, etc., if they so choose.
-----------TL:DR So, yeah, that type of level-less gameplay would definitely appeal to me. But, those "different" abilities and items, etc. need to directly affect gameplay in a major way(different weapon processes, secondary effects, etc.)
Well Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen would clearly be epic battles that take multiple groups of people to win at.
Where a small group of adventurers could wade through Crush bone fighting orcs.
Even the mightiest warriors are still vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. Gandalf stood toe to toe with the mighty Balrog, but a stray arrow from a goblin hitting his neck, or sword in his back from an orc would have killed him just the same.
Which goes to my realism of combat comments. At what point does a knight or a wizard become immune to getting hit in the head by an orc's mace? I suspect never. Yet this is common place in MMORPGs... lol.
Let me ask you something.
I can log into EQ right now, and as a ranger I can melee auto attack Lord Nagefen and Lady Vox to death without any thought, solo, because of the level system and it's effect on the game world.
In a vertical leveling system, eventually a swarm of Crush bone orcs are unable to you kill and eventually gods and dragons are unable to kill you.
How can YOU rationalize this?
Nice post. I really hate the above-mentioned flaws in RPGs. I'm pretty sure 50 orcs swarming you would beat pretty much anyone to death.
-----------TL:DR So, yeah, that type of level-less gameplay would definitely appeal to me. But, those "different" abilities and items, etc. need to directly affect gameplay in a major way(different weapon processes, secondary effects, etc.)
Yes exactly. If you make gear situational, or add to your character's customization, it can be a nice achievement to gain these items even if they're not "statistically better". Horizontal upgrades with only small variations in actual power.
You can take most of the dropped loot out of the game and could make the bulk of the drops unique crafting materials. For example, maybe Trakanon instead of dropping a sword, he would drop a Green Dragon's Eye, and then a crafter could use this item to imbue a sword with poison damage, or embroider a robe with poison resistance. Maybe you kill Cazic Thul and he drops a Heart of Fear, which can be used to give armor fear resistance or a fear proc on weapons.
Things like that.
This kind of system would avoid the pitfalls of level based games (segregating the community, useless low level content, etc), make exploring and working through new lands and dungeons worth the effort, give people lots of gear to discover and work for and even help make crafting extremely useful and non-trivialized.
Well Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen would clearly be epic battles that take multiple groups of people to win at.
Where a small group of adventurers could wade through Crush bone fighting orcs.
Even the mightiest warriors are still vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. Gandalf stood toe to toe with the mighty Balrog, but a stray arrow from a goblin hitting his neck, or sword in his back from an orc would have killed him just the same.
Which goes to my realism of combat comments. At what point does a knight or a wizard become immune to getting hit in the head by an orc's mace? I suspect never. Yet this is common place in MMORPGs... lol.
Let me ask you something.
I can log into EQ right now, and as a ranger I can melee auto attack Lord Nagefen and Lady Vox to death without any thought, solo, because of the level system and it's effect on the game world.
In a vertical leveling system, eventually a swarm of Crush bone orcs are unable to you kill and eventually gods and dragons are unable to kill you.
How can YOU rationalize this?
Nice post. I really hate the above-mentioned flaws in RPGs. I'm pretty sure 50 orcs swarming you would beat pretty much anyone to death.
-----------TL:DR So, yeah, that type of level-less gameplay would definitely appeal to me. But, those "different" abilities and items, etc. need to directly affect gameplay in a major way(different weapon processes, secondary effects, etc.)
Yes exactly. If you make gear situational, or add to your character's customization, it can be a nice achievement to gain these items even if they're not "statistically better". Horizontal upgrades with only small variations in actual power.
You can take most of the dropped loot out of the game and could make the bulk of the drops unique crafting materials. For example, maybe Trakanon instead of dropping a sword, he would drop a Green Dragon's Eye, and then a crafter could use this item to imbue a sword with poison damage, or embroider a robe with poison resistance. Maybe you kill Cazic Thul and he drops a Heart of Fear, which can be used to give armor fear resistance or a fear proc on weapons.
Things like that.
This kind of system would avoid the pitfalls of level based games (segregating the community, useless low level content, etc), make exploring and working through new lands and dungeons worth the effort, give people lots of gear to discover and work for and even help make crafting extremely useful and non-trivialized.
Thanks Lokero
As someone who loves to go heavy into the crafting, I couldn't agree more. I'd absolutely love to see a system where crafting plays a huge, legitimate role, through the entire game.
However, I don't think it'd go over well with the majority if there weren't loot drops. Most people like finding gear as treasure/drops. They just need to make sure the crafted gear is comparable and as useful as the stuff dropped from dragons, etc.
Really, though, it's all a moot point if crafting is just another silly little gimmick like in all the recent MMOs. Where everyone is a master crafter and can make anything themselves.
Not to derail the thread into a crafting discussion, but how great would it be to see a master armorer and a master enchanter(or an ice-focused wizard) get together with a master weaponsmith, and turn Trak's scales into a shield(armorer), make spikes for it out of Faydedar's spines/claws or something that would do piercing damage when blocking/shield bashing(weaponsmith), and enchant it using Vox's frost breath glands/lungs so that it would inflict some type of freezing effect that would debuff/damage enemies.
That said, I think said dragons and such need to drop items as well, but personally I think all items should be able to be improved/affected by crafting in some way.
Just a bit of rambling, but I sure would love to see an interweaving crafting system like that. A united community, as you were hitting on.
Well Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen would clearly be epic battles that take multiple groups of people to win at.
Where a small group of adventurers could wade through Crush bone fighting orcs.
Even the mightiest warriors are still vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. Gandalf stood toe to toe with the mighty Balrog, but a stray arrow from a goblin hitting his neck, or sword in his back from an orc would have killed him just the same.
Which goes to my realism of combat comments. At what point does a knight or a wizard become immune to getting hit in the head by an orc's mace? I suspect never. Yet this is common place in MMORPGs... lol.
Let me ask you something.
I can log into EQ right now, and as a ranger I can melee auto attack Lord Nagefen and Lady Vox to death without any thought, solo, because of the level system and it's effect on the game world.
In a vertical leveling system, eventually a swarm of Crush bone orcs are unable to you kill and eventually gods and dragons are unable to kill you.
How can YOU rationalize this?
Nice post. I really hate the above-mentioned flaws in RPGs. I'm pretty sure 50 orcs swarming you would beat pretty much anyone to death.
-----------TL:DR So, yeah, that type of level-less gameplay would definitely appeal to me. But, those "different" abilities and items, etc. need to directly affect gameplay in a major way(different weapon processes, secondary effects, etc.)
Yes exactly. If you make gear situational, or add to your character's customization, it can be a nice achievement to gain these items even if they're not "statistically better". Horizontal upgrades with only small variations in actual power.
You can take most of the dropped loot out of the game and could make the bulk of the drops unique crafting materials. For example, maybe Trakanon instead of dropping a sword, he would drop a Green Dragon's Eye, and then a crafter could use this item to imbue a sword with poison damage, or embroider a robe with poison resistance. Maybe you kill Cazic Thul and he drops a Heart of Fear, which can be used to give armor fear resistance or a fear proc on weapons.
Things like that.
This kind of system would avoid the pitfalls of level based games (segregating the community, useless low level content, etc), make exploring and working through new lands and dungeons worth the effort, give people lots of gear to discover and work for and even help make crafting extremely useful and non-trivialized.
Thanks Lokero
As someone who loves to go heavy into the crafting, I couldn't agree more. I'd absolutely love to see a system where crafting plays a huge, legitimate role, through the entire game.
However, I don't think it'd go over well with the majority if there weren't loot drops. Most people like finding gear as treasure/drops. They just need to make sure the crafted gear is comparable and as useful as the stuff dropped from dragons, etc.
Really, though, it's all a moot point if crafting is just another silly little gimmick like in all the recent MMOs. Where everyone is a master crafter and can make anything themselves.
Not to derail the thread into a crafting discussion, but how great would it be to see a master armorer and a master enchanter(or an ice-focused wizard) get together with a master weaponsmith, and turn Trak's scales into a shield(armorer), make spikes for it out of Faydedar's spines/claws or something that would do piercing damage when blocking/shield bashing(weaponsmith), and enchant it using Vox's frost breath glands/lungs so that it would inflict some type of freezing effect that would debuff/damage enemies.
That said, I think said dragons and such need to drop items as well, but personally I think all items should be able to be improved/affected by crafting in some way.
Just a bit of rambling, but I sure would love to see an interweaving crafting system like that. A united community, as you were hitting on.
Well you could always have loot drops too. Just make it add to the item diversity. Maybe Trakanon drops a 2h sword that procs disease, or you can take the eye to a blacksmith and make a 2h sword that procs poison.
When a game has dropped loot that is exactly the same or better than crafted items, you make crafters useless. The key would be a healthy balance of dropped loot and crafter created items so that there's always a need for crafters. Too many games have crafting, and raid and dungeon drops are all anyone wants. It makes crafting nothing more than glorified consumable producers.
I'm not big into crafting, but Dave Georgeson has promised to make crafting and other non-combat aspects of the game just as fun, rewarding and useful as adventuring. I'm sure they'll find a way to make it work.
I know this post will get buried between the quote monoliths so common on this site, but... Icast my vote.
As a guy who played EQ for a short period before going out drinking and attempting to womanize got a hold of me, and as a guy who played EQ2 twice for short bits, I'm looking forward to EQN.
Others have already said how tired they are of the traditional leveling system; I, too, am tired of it. I leveled in p&p D&D back in the day (25 years ago?!?); I leveled in Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy; I leveled in WoW and all the other themeparks I've tried since WoW.
Then I played the original Darkfall, and was amazed by how awesome the skill system was. I'm not saying Darkfall was a great game (although it kept me entertained for 2 1/2 years), but the lack of a true leveling system, I thought, was the bees knees.
I'd like it tremendously if EQN had a similar system for character advancement.
Just like a lot of older Ultima Online vets, I have never liked levels as a way to progress a character. Character Progression is very important in mmos, but doing so through levels isn't ideal to me.
Look at WoW for example. Most of the game time is spent at endgame when leveling stops. so what motivates progression there, because WoW's progression never stopped because of levels ending.
But doesn't gear then just become "the new levels"?
I would prefer some sort of skill based progression.
If it has levels and classes, it's not a big deal though. I would really like being able to do everything on one character though (even if it meant forgetting skills or something)
How would you feel about Everquest Next having no Player Character Levels unlike EQ1&2?
Levels have been a key part of themepark MMO pathing concept.
But moving towards a more free roam design to the game, it would make sense to be able to go anywhere and fight anything regardless of a level number next to character's head that requires a useless grind to unlock parts of the world to explore.
Well a Levelless system would allow players from their first time playing, to explore and go anywhere in the game to progress and enjoy themselves, rather being locked to a limit of locations like in a themepark design MMO.
Whats your opinion on this? Do you support such a thing?
There is a somewhat caution to the idea though. I believe it was GW2 (a Very Very Popular themepark MMO) that at first designed the game to allow players to scale in level in any part of the game including the game world. Which allow players from day 1 to go anywhere and do any event they choose. Talk about exploration.
But some reason this idea was scrapped. Had to be a reason that is negative. Could such a reason apply to a Sandbox Everquest Next?
Yes yes share your thoughts and vote on this discussion.
As with most polls on these forums, my answer isn't there.
I am a fan of eq/eq2.
But I can't in good conscience say whether I can support a levelling or lvl-less system without knowing what it entails. Whether the system is fun or not is my determining factor. I have played levelling games where the levelling sucked. I have played skill-based games that sucked. I have played lvling games which were awesome, I have played skill-based games which were awesome.
So how could I decide without having any concept of how the hypothetical system works?
Beside, to me, whatever system they put in place, it is simply a mathematical representation of what content you can or cannot complete. I.E., you will die if you try 'x' mob at lvl 10, but at lvl 15 it is a cake walk. vs. you will die if you don't have a combat skill such as swordsmanship at 100 but at 150 it is a cake walk.
To me its all the same thing with different labels and thus, my determining factor is 'did the developers make a system which = entertainment'.
You seem to suggest that there are only two systems (Skill and level), but then you use a level-based skill system as an example. A level-less system would be a game where your skill as a player mattered the most. The OP isn't talking about the alternative to a leveling system, (skill point system) which is just a leveling system with a different flavor.
Think more of the Legend of Zelda. No levels, or "skill point" raising. Combat with aiming, dodging, using skills at right time, team work, coordination, etc, being the key factors of a fight.
Not how many levels you have or how many skill points you put into swordsmen.
Well... you kinda missed the point. No matter what the system is, it has to be a good one. I still cannot pre-judge a game by a system I haven't tried. I have played twitch games that are good and twitch games that are bad, so I still can't answer the poll.
And please refrain from acting as if twitch gaming is the kind where 'your skill as a player mattered the most'. I have seen master twitch teens who crumble in the face of an EQ raid.
I am ok without character levels, but I want class levels. I would also love the ability to change classes to level another class on 1 character. I hate leveling alts to try new classes. I like investing time into 1 character. Like I did with FFXI, A nice side effect of being able to level all classes on one character is it greatly helps community. People start seeing you, and know its you, you are allowed to build a name for yourself, and build a reputation. where as if your leveling alts people outside your guild have no clue who you are. I cant count how many times in XI I had helped someone on my max level class, then later I needed some help on something then they repayed the favor because they remembered my name. Stuff like that is lost when you level alts under a different name. Of course if you are a douchbag it has the opposite effect and you are blackballed by the community, and forced to change your name or quit.
But the ability to level all classes on one character is almost impossible when the only way to level in an efficient manor is to be spoon fed quests that led you along the little yellow brick road.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
So basically, SOE would copy The Secret World, with a fantasy setting, and Smedly is still not fired?
EQ N is still destined to be a trainwreck because it's foundation is fundamentally poisoned, and pretty sure SOE has bought off MMORPG to get it to the number one spot on the top voted games list.
So basically, SOE would copy The Secret World, with a fantasy setting, and Smedly is still not fired?
EQ N is still destined to be a trainwreck because it's foundation is fundamentally poisoned, and pretty sure SOE has bought off MMORPG to get it to the number one spot on the top voted games list.
I voted 10 on the hype meter, no one paid me... EQN isn't a one man show being made by Smedly, doesn't seem he has much to do with the game dev wise. Conspiracies are fun though.
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Really no idea, but after many years of playing level- or otherwise progression-centric RPGs, I'd really like to try it.
Ya I think it would be fun.
Ice-Vortex repeated my same thoughts. Vertical systems create barriers in the community playing the game, make new players feel that they're too far behind, creates a world where most of the content is "useless" etc etc.
I think you can have a lot of fun in game that doesn't have this kind of vertical progression.
Gear that is more about customizing your character's abilities in combat instead of a +stat grind. A whole world that is dangerous and worth exploring, even after you've played the game for years. Game play that is fun for the sake of playing the game itself. Building communities. Having events. Mastering a combat role. Perfecting a crafting skill, etc.
You can have all that without an arbitrary level system that forces the players to feel like they're "working" instead of playing, and causing barriers between players that isn't needed.
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Yes, i am quite serious. Perhaps i should have elaborated further. This idea that horizontal progression somehow gives you more "freedom" is a load of crap. You have just as much freedom in a vertical progression game, Rift proved that. Lets see, i dont want to tank today, ill go DPS, or support, or heals, or whatever i want because i have freedom to choose what class and talents i can pick. Oh look, i have dozens of gear loadout slots, plenty of spec tree load out slots, which i can switch between at will, at any time.
Now, as to i why i equate it to socialism, its because it has this mentality of "nobody can really get BETTER than anyone else, because thats not fair, and everyone should be equal." Please, try to argue that is false. In games like GW2 they constantly try to pound out that oh well you will LOOK different, but you wont actually perform any better, do any more damage, have any more health, or be BETTER in any way. Bam, Socialism, right there. No sir we can't let you own that ferrari even though you worked twice as hard, put in 3 times as much time into earning the money to pay for it as the guy standing next to you because that would be unfair to him.
If i spend 50 hours a week making widgets to sell, and you only spend 35 hours a week, i get to sell more widgets than you, which means i get to make more money, which means i get to buy more or better stuff. Thats how it works, or at least how it should work. But all the whineasses have cried and pissed and moaned because they dont want to feel less than someone who invests more time and effort into the game, because they dont want to give up whatever other aspects of their life that the person they're complaining about did. You want to be able to spend friday and saturday at the club, thats fine, but thats your decision, don't begrudge the guy who doesnt like that scene who would rather invest those 4-8 hours into an mmo.
You decided to have children, or you have a working life, (like i do), guess what, thats part of your reality. Just like you don't get to bring your crying ass child to the theater to watch the next Die Hard movie without looking like an asshole and pissing everyone else, you dont get to cry about not being to invest 40 hours a week into a game lke a hardcore raider can, without being an asshole and pissing everyone off. You can still get that same gear but you're going to get it slower. He might get his full set in 5 weeks, it might take you 12, but no, thats not "fair".
This is what i miss the most about EQ1. Many of us, and at that time i was one of them, couldnt invest the time that the hardcore raiders could into the game. We still raided, we raided slightly older content, and we did it less frequently, but we still raided and had fun. And very few of the hardcore guys were elitists. I can't tell you how many times i watched guys from afterlife take 2 hours or more out of their day to come help us recover our corpses after a full raid wipe in fear. Or come tank a boss we were having trouble with, etc etc. Rather than being hated for their "wealth" they were respected for their efforts and skill.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
As with most polls on these forums, my answer isn't there.
I am a fan of eq/eq2.
But I can't in good conscience say whether I can support a levelling or lvl-less system without knowing what it entails. Whether the system is fun or not is my determining factor. I have played levelling games where the levelling sucked. I have played skill-based games that sucked. I have played lvling games which were awesome, I have played skill-based games which were awesome.
So how could I decide without having any concept of how the hypothetical system works?
Beside, to me, whatever system they put in place, it is simply a mathematical representation of what content you can or cannot complete. I.E., you will die if you try 'x' mob at lvl 10, but at lvl 15 it is a cake walk. vs. you will die if you don't have a combat skill such as swordsmanship at 100 but at 150 it is a cake walk.
To me its all the same thing with different labels and thus, my determining factor is 'did the developers make a system which = entertainment'.
You seem to suggest that there are only two systems (Skill and level), but then you use a level-based skill system as an example. A level-less system would be a game where your skill as a player mattered the most. The OP isn't talking about the alternative to a leveling system, (skill point system) which is just a leveling system with a different flavor.
Think more of the Legend of Zelda. No levels, or "skill point" raising. Combat with aiming, dodging, using skills at right time, team work, coordination, etc, being the key factors of a fight.
Not how many levels you have or how many skill points you put into swordsmen.
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for OP
I dont understand this : I am a EQ1||2 fan and support a levelless EQN Sandbox
In all your poll options you mention levelless, what is that, less levels or what?
Skill based gameplay. Where you're ability to play well and work as a team is the main factor in your battle success. As opposed to level system, where no matter how hard you try, a lvl 6 EQ player can not beat a lvl 45 mob.
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Well I know what skillbased games are ,my first mmo was Asherons Call very skill based game. you still mention level 6 player not beeing able to beat level 45 mob?
Yes, a level/skill point system arbitrarily dictates the enemies you can face and win and the enemies that are worth, and not worth, facing.
I think you're confusing Skill (Player's personal talent) with "Skill Point" system, where you play a game and raise "Skills" or you spend "points" that you earned to buy "New spells and Skills". (AKA make-your-own-class)
There is a difference between the two.
Planetside 2 is a skill based game.
Asheron's Call is a Skill Point system game.
Two different things.
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Swing your sword 15 times and you get 1 more sword skill DING ! it is pretty much the exact same thing as a level up....Making your character more powerful it is what you are doing regardless
Ya exactly. Which is different than what the OP is talking about.
Or
You "level up" and get to pick a "new skill" from a Skill Tree.
But neither what you said, nor what I just said, is what the OP is talking about.
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Nice post. I really hate the above-mentioned flaws in RPGs. I'm pretty sure 50 orcs swarming you would beat pretty much anyone to death.
I think the GW2 system with the down-levelling was a baby-step in the right direction. It was kind of a shoddy design and implementation, but a good first effort in keeping older content playable.
The single biggest problem with MMOs as they grow and expand is dead zones. Let's not even get into the dead level ranges, which I think you guys mentioned already. There's no way to add content without adding new zones and expanding the world, at some point. So, they have to stop following this same old formula, and make the entire world viable for players of all ranges and styles.
The real problem with sideways progression is that there really isn't enough variety and diversity. In most games that have tried this you feel like you gain nothing. There needs to be a diverse list of abilities that do drastically different things, etc. Which means the game has to have a ton of options that are designed to be vastly different. I don't mean just aesthetically, either(GW2), but actually different.
Which also leaves us with gear. People want better gear, period. Which means tons of diverse gear and weapon effects, etc. I think EQ already had a fair amount of cool weapons back in the old days. Weapons that processed stun or root or snare, etc. are a good example of weapon diversity.
GW2 had the right idea with many things. They just did a fairly miserable job of putting those ideas into the game. Progression in GW2 was nothing but a few graphical effects here and there(yes, I know they had different armor sets with set bonuses, etc.)
All in all, I'd love to see a more skill-based; less level-based system. But, it really all falls on the shoulders of the developers to make the skills and effects you can obtain greatly and directly impact gameplay. We need to get ouf of the "passive" systems that games like WoW, etc. have(though, even WoW got rid of their passive talents at least).
Some simple example:
-if Vox drops an ice dagger that imbues ice attacks with a snare/stun,etc. Then maybe there's an ice dagger that drops in some "low level" area(blackburrow, etc.) that can be used to cauterize bleed effects on yourself/team members, etc.
Point being, something that would be desirable at least situationally. I think there should be some named/boss mobs that drop specific items, but I think there also needs to be a fair amount of world-drops so that people don't confine themselves to any particular area. Let people be free to roam and drift wherever they want to, to group with anyone and everyone around, etc., if they so choose.
-----------TL:DR So, yeah, that type of level-less gameplay would definitely appeal to me. But, those "different" abilities and items, etc. need to directly affect gameplay in a major way(different weapon processes, secondary effects, etc.)
Yes exactly. If you make gear situational, or add to your character's customization, it can be a nice achievement to gain these items even if they're not "statistically better". Horizontal upgrades with only small variations in actual power.
You can take most of the dropped loot out of the game and could make the bulk of the drops unique crafting materials. For example, maybe Trakanon instead of dropping a sword, he would drop a Green Dragon's Eye, and then a crafter could use this item to imbue a sword with poison damage, or embroider a robe with poison resistance. Maybe you kill Cazic Thul and he drops a Heart of Fear, which can be used to give armor fear resistance or a fear proc on weapons.
Things like that.
This kind of system would avoid the pitfalls of level based games (segregating the community, useless low level content, etc), make exploring and working through new lands and dungeons worth the effort, give people lots of gear to discover and work for and even help make crafting extremely useful and non-trivialized.
Thanks Lokero
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As someone who loves to go heavy into the crafting, I couldn't agree more. I'd absolutely love to see a system where crafting plays a huge, legitimate role, through the entire game.
However, I don't think it'd go over well with the majority if there weren't loot drops. Most people like finding gear as treasure/drops. They just need to make sure the crafted gear is comparable and as useful as the stuff dropped from dragons, etc.
Really, though, it's all a moot point if crafting is just another silly little gimmick like in all the recent MMOs. Where everyone is a master crafter and can make anything themselves.
Not to derail the thread into a crafting discussion, but how great would it be to see a master armorer and a master enchanter(or an ice-focused wizard) get together with a master weaponsmith, and turn Trak's scales into a shield(armorer), make spikes for it out of Faydedar's spines/claws or something that would do piercing damage when blocking/shield bashing(weaponsmith), and enchant it using Vox's frost breath glands/lungs so that it would inflict some type of freezing effect that would debuff/damage enemies.
That said, I think said dragons and such need to drop items as well, but personally I think all items should be able to be improved/affected by crafting in some way.
Just a bit of rambling, but I sure would love to see an interweaving crafting system like that. A united community, as you were hitting on.
Well you could always have loot drops too. Just make it add to the item diversity. Maybe Trakanon drops a 2h sword that procs disease, or you can take the eye to a blacksmith and make a 2h sword that procs poison.
When a game has dropped loot that is exactly the same or better than crafted items, you make crafters useless. The key would be a healthy balance of dropped loot and crafter created items so that there's always a need for crafters. Too many games have crafting, and raid and dungeon drops are all anyone wants. It makes crafting nothing more than glorified consumable producers.
I'm not big into crafting, but Dave Georgeson has promised to make crafting and other non-combat aspects of the game just as fun, rewarding and useful as adventuring. I'm sure they'll find a way to make it work.
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I know this post will get buried between the quote monoliths so common on this site, but... Icast my vote.
As a guy who played EQ for a short period before going out drinking and attempting to womanize got a hold of me, and as a guy who played EQ2 twice for short bits, I'm looking forward to EQN.
Others have already said how tired they are of the traditional leveling system; I, too, am tired of it. I leveled in p&p D&D back in the day (25 years ago?!?); I leveled in Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy; I leveled in WoW and all the other themeparks I've tried since WoW.
Then I played the original Darkfall, and was amazed by how awesome the skill system was. I'm not saying Darkfall was a great game (although it kept me entertained for 2 1/2 years), but the lack of a true leveling system, I thought, was the bees knees.
I'd like it tremendously if EQN had a similar system for character advancement.
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But doesn't gear then just become "the new levels"?
I would prefer some sort of skill based progression.
If it has levels and classes, it's not a big deal though. I would really like being able to do everything on one character though (even if it meant forgetting skills or something)
Well... you kinda missed the point. No matter what the system is, it has to be a good one. I still cannot pre-judge a game by a system I haven't tried. I have played twitch games that are good and twitch games that are bad, so I still can't answer the poll.
And please refrain from acting as if twitch gaming is the kind where 'your skill as a player mattered the most'. I have seen master twitch teens who crumble in the face of an EQ raid.
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I am ok without character levels, but I want class levels. I would also love the ability to change classes to level another class on 1 character. I hate leveling alts to try new classes. I like investing time into 1 character. Like I did with FFXI, A nice side effect of being able to level all classes on one character is it greatly helps community. People start seeing you, and know its you, you are allowed to build a name for yourself, and build a reputation. where as if your leveling alts people outside your guild have no clue who you are. I cant count how many times in XI I had helped someone on my max level class, then later I needed some help on something then they repayed the favor because they remembered my name. Stuff like that is lost when you level alts under a different name. Of course if you are a douchbag it has the opposite effect and you are blackballed by the community, and forced to change your name or quit.
But the ability to level all classes on one character is almost impossible when the only way to level in an efficient manor is to be spoon fed quests that led you along the little yellow brick road.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
So basically, SOE would copy The Secret World, with a fantasy setting, and Smedly is still not fired?
EQ N is still destined to be a trainwreck because it's foundation is fundamentally poisoned, and pretty sure SOE has bought off MMORPG to get it to the number one spot on the top voted games list.
I voted 10 on the hype meter, no one paid me... EQN isn't a one man show being made by Smedly, doesn't seem he has much to do with the game dev wise. Conspiracies are fun though.