Originally posted by nariusseldon Crafting is never a priority in a combat centric MMO. That is the issue. If there is no demand, devs are not going to spend time to improve the crafting system.
I am not sure this is true. Oh I don't doubt that there are more adventurer types than crafter types. Especially if you lump the crafter/adventurer in with the adventurers. But making a game isn't just about satisfying a demand. Its about making experiences and well... making fun.
You could then say of course if there is no demand they won't sell it, hence they won't make it. And with short run thinking thats true. But anyone worth their salt thinks long term. Problem is, short term thinking has a voracious appetite, it enters a media field chews up all the good and leaves nothing but bones when it leaves. Look to the music industry or movies and you see the parallels.
I must confess, that in all of the MMOs I have played I have consistently found crafting to be an utter annoyance.
Perhaps it is just my playstyle, but I was consistently feeling behind on either resource gathering or the actual crafting combined with trying to level as fast as I could (because I am an end-game players for the most part).
I think I also simply found crafting to be bland in World of Warcraft (the MMO I played the longest). I wish there had been something to do to spice up the whole thing. I know Engineers were able to go on quests to scavenge up new recipies like Jeeves, but no other professions had anything like that. Maybe that is something we can look forward to in the future MMOs!
Warrior/Druid - Level 90/90 - World of Warcraft GLD Level 27 - CNJ Level 15 - Final Fantasy XIV: ARR Jedi Guardian/Republic Gunslinger - Level 50/50 - SW:TOR Cleric - Level 48 - RIFT Illuminati - QL6 - The Secret World Trickster Rogue - Level 50 - Neverwinter Summoner Level 30 - League of Legends EGO Rating 363 - Defiance
Eh, throughout most of WOW's lifetime buying BOEs (many crafted) has been worthwhile for leveling characters. It's only heirloom gear which renders them useless, and if the criticism was aimed at heirlooms I'd agree they make leveling less fun.
Several thing contribute to the issue; including the crafted gear being crap relative to easy drops, leveling right past the crafting without effort, and the short-term use of crafted gear before you're ten levels beyond it.
All of the years I played WoW, I never bothered with professions, at all, short of the cap. Rollover is just too quick, and there's not a step on the journey that can't be easily accomplished in quest greens.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
( as a non-raider, crafting in those types of games tends to end up being my endgame and I've found it acceptably entertaining if I have enough alts trading amongst themselves )
You still face the diminishing demand issue lest the developers launch tiers every few weeks or have a hellishly difficult game.
It can be stretched out for months if you have gates that limit the speed at which a character can learn recipees or make key resources.
All of the years I played WoW, I never bothered with professions, at all, short of the cap. Rollover is just too quick, and there's not a step on the journey that can't be easily accomplished in quest greens.
WoW's low-level crafted tiers are poorly scaled in terms of power and difficulty to gather resources - even with some of the simplifications they've done, too much of the crafting is still a relic of a time when levelling was much slower and I think it ends up giving a bad first impression of the experience.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Crafting is never a priority in a combat centric MMO. That is the issue. If there is no demand, devs are not going to spend time to improve the crafting system.
I am not sure this is true. Oh I don't doubt that there are more adventurer types than crafter types. Especially if you lump the crafter/adventurer in with the adventurers. But making a game isn't just about satisfying a demand. Its about making experiences and well... making fun.
You could then say of course if there is no demand they won't sell it, hence they won't make it. And with short run thinking thats true. But anyone worth their salt thinks long term. Problem is, short term thinking has a voracious appetite, it enters a media field chews up all the good and leaves nothing but bones when it leaves. Look to the music industry or movies and you see the parallels.
It is about satisfying the demand for fun. If few thinks crafting is fun, no devs will spend the money to develop a good system.
Fun is subjective. So you need an audience that like crafting. Otherwise, you can argue until your face is blue, and no one is going to waste money on it. Are YOU going to spend your life savings on something with little return?
Now it is fine to debate the SIZE of the crafting market (which is not zero, since Tales of the Desert is alive and well) and it is futile to debate if you need a demand for it.
BTW, the movie industry gives us both The Avenger and Lincoln in the same year. I think it is awesome.
All of the years I played WoW, I never bothered with professions, at all, short of the cap. Rollover is just too quick, and there's not a step on the journey that can't be easily accomplished in quest greens.
WoW's low-level crafted tiers are poorly scaled in terms of power and difficulty to gather resources - even with some of the simplifications they've done, too much of the crafting is still a relic of a time when levelling was much slower and I think it ends up giving a bad first impression of the experience.
The only casual crafting (which i mean as a simple addition to combat centric games) that i have seen done well is Marvel Heroes.
1) They don't require you to craft a thousand useless items to level up. You just donate unwanted gear (as opposed to sell them).
2) They let you craft improvements to your existing gear (like turning a blue to a purple). So it is ALWAYS useful.
Even D3 crafting (which is useful at end game .. just go to Diabloprogress and see top players using crafted gear which are BIS for some slots) is seldom useful during the level up process.
Several thing contribute to the issue; including the crafted gear being crap relative to easy drops, leveling right past the crafting without effort, and the short-term use of crafted gear before you're ten levels beyond it.
All of the years I played WoW, I never bothered with professions, at all, short of the cap. Rollover is just too quick, and there's not a step on the journey that can't be easily accomplished in quest greens.
If it's better gear, it's better gear -- especially if it's going to be a trip you take down the crafting line anyway because you want it for endgame.
You're absolutely right that you can choose to skip it, and that due to what I described earlier (Challenge vs. Reward) crafted gear is generally kept to only a few slots worth of gear because it involves no challenge of its own (because it's a side feature.) That's just how it works as a side feature. The tradeoff advantage is having core gameplay that's worth playing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
IF something is good, and you don't out level it in a playing session, people will want it.
DAoC - Bows, I had a guy that could make bows, and they were more useful for low level characters, than high level characters, it was easier to get a good bow at high levels if memory serves me right. The top quality bow you could use, that was crafted made a huge difference, and since it was a RvR game (they had the battleground for lower levels), you could kill people in less hits/time with a top crafted bow, verse something from a lower level dungeon/mob drop.
UO - GM weapons were very useful, as UO stuff wore down, and as it did, it would do less damage, so you often would go out with 2-4 weapons, and with it being pvp, you often didn't want to take out the best sword you had ever looted anywhere, as stuff wore out, and killing mobs was not a good use for it either. Almost everything crafted in UO was useful, but weapons probably most of all.
Vanguard - The raiding dropped gear, but it also dropped components to make crafted stuff, you could also tailor crafted items stat wise to go along with how people were doing their builds. I also played on the pvp server, so I do not know if this was more desired or not because of that, but my wife and I were two of our guilds best crafters and we had to ration our time/demands, as if we didn't, we would just be making stuff for people non-stop. Crafting was useful through the whole leveling process.
MMOs do it, but you have to want to make it useful, if you tack crafting/harvesting onto a game at the end, it is probably going to suck or be very situational. I would rather not have it, then to have it tacked on at the end and be mostly worthless, use the time to do something else to make the game better. I think they just need to say, 'we have crafting!', even if its an abomination like WAR at launch (not sure if it ever became much more).
Some guy earlier in this thread mentioned SWG (Star Wars: Galaxies). In the end, it got fucked, but from early on they had the right idea. It all came down to mats, and you had to put in effort and time to make sure you got the best mats (this was done by harvesters, which you had to empty manually), and with the best mats came the best items/gear/houses even.
And not to forget the crafting part, part hassle part tedious. The result tho, worth it.
So yeah I agree with the idea of crafting taking a backseat, and I do hope minecraft and games like that can help turn it around.
MMO crafting is a touchy mechanic.. Some love it, but I think most don't care.. When I mean don't care, that normally comes from the part of the genre that ONLY wants to hack and slash to fame.. I believe their are multiple reasons why crafting isn't more popular in the MMO industry..
The devs simply don't understand economics outside of supply > demand.. It's one reason why mmo inflation and AH across the world are broken to no end.. Could you imagine the real world if nothing ever broke or wore out? I'd still be driving my 1979 Pontiac Firebird in pristine condition.. I would have no reason to ever buy a new one.. Same with every other consumer product.. Some games did it right, but then a vocal minority cried and POOF depreciation disappeared.. Maybe too many players are just simply spoiled..
Attractiveness is another issue.. If crafting is always going to be an inferior product compared to quest rewards or boss drops, why ever seek out a crafter.. I don't think I ever saw a game in which crafting was a good option to BIS (best in slot) gear.. YES, I know some things like socket crafting is good, but I"m referring to the common slots of gear and weapons..
There are more minor issues, that could easily be sub topics to the above.. Such as a flood of common drops in the market.. Even if you have an expert leather worker for example.. Why even bother to make low level leather gear if the market is flooded with hundreds of cheap mob drop items that are not BOP... Even when I was equipping my alts, it was just easier to spend a few gold and be done, then to actually make the items myself.. Add in the account bound gear like what WoW did and you literally destroy any need for crafting with alts.. PLUS, the length of time gear is actually used has a HUGE impact on crafting.. If you're going to out level your crafted gear in a day, way bother farming the mats.. Most people don't even bother with collecting recipes for items anymore because it's a timesink..
Personally if I had my way, I'd have all items removable from the world.. Character progression MUST slow down so that gear actually means something and has value.. I spent time and went out of my way in EQ to find crafters.. The day I was able to reliably craft banded, studded and chain armor was great.. Tanks came looking for people like me so they can upgrade out of their heavy bronze armor.. LOL Having food and drink in the game is great, but it could be better simply by making it a required slot to be filled.. EQ2 did crafting OK, SWG was great,, but it could be better.. However, I'm sure the hack and slash shooters in the game will cry up a storm..
Most MMOs treat crafting like a mini game and a time and money sink...
Untill there is an MMO, that makes crafting and the acompanying economy the core of its financial world, crafting will keep feeling useless..
Good crafting and economy could be based on a PvP system based on fighting for resources. And a PvE system where the top dungeon drops can allways be improved by crafting or are just the top ingredients for the crafting. So getting the best gear would still require you to conquer those dungeons and raid instances and then finding the right crafter with the right recipe for the stuff you want..
A worldwide auction house however is not a good thing... i would prefer local autionhouses.. and billboards where crafters could advertise their wares, or stuff they could make. Even have player controlled crafting NPCs sitting in front of their homes that would sell their stuff and or do the actuall crafting process when the player is offline.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Most MMOs treat crafting like a mini game and a time and money sink...
Untill there is an MMO, that makes crafting and the acompanying economy the core of its financial world, crafting will keep feeling useless..
Good crafting and economy could be based on a PvP system based on fighting for resources. (not a bad idea if we are talking about battleground type PvP) And a PvE system where the top dungeon drops can allways be improved by crafting or are just the top ingredients for the crafting. So getting the best gear would still require you to conquer those dungeons and raid instances and then finding the right crafter with the right recipe for the stuff you want..(this I have an issue with.. because once again we are telling the general public that dungeon grinding is the ONLY option to advance.. I'd rather just have super rare drops in hard open world locations)
A worldwide auction house however is not a good thing... i would prefer local autionhouses.. and billboards where crafters could advertise their wares, or stuff they could make. Even have player controlled crafting NPCs sitting in front of their homes that would sell their stuff and or do the actuall crafting process when the player is offline.(The trick is having multiple local locations such as the starting cities in WoW for example.. but then you look at Rift and you only have 1 city.. (( boring )).. However, I don't like the idea of offline or AFK crafting like SWG had.. That just makes it too easy to flood the market using bots or macros)
Now I wouldn't be adverse to allowing players to sit AFK selling their wares like we did in EQ bizarre.. To prevent lag issues, allow people to go AFK anywhere in the city to be a street vendor.. Take WoW for example.. I could set up in any of the starting cities, at any location.. I would have "vendor" only bags and allow people to click on me and buy from my bags.. NO commission lost.. However if you wish to use the local AH, they get 20%.. The commision needs to be stiff enough to make it matter..
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz Crafter are minorities. No one really cares about crafted gear. Why would I want to pay you 10k for that sword you made, when I could just go get it as a drop/quest reward? If they made a demand for crafting, that would infuriate people. Why do i have to buy it from you? Why can't I get it as a drop?
Oh yeah, why interact with other players in a Massively Multiplayer game...
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
Let's take some apples, and pretend they are oranges...
For all you know, the gold needed to purchase that super sword from the crafter could have been obtained 100% solo. It's an interaction between just two players. I would call that a "very small group" interaction, if anything.
I personally don't see zerging some boss with 100 other people as a ultimate social interaction, it's just being one anonymous person in a crowd. It's in smaller scale contacts that you make friends, not in a zerg.
And lets stay on topic, will you?
No need to take it personal.. the topic is crafting and why it's not more popular and with that means analyzing the human psychology of social interaction, dependency and usefulness.. This is every aspects of the MMO game from crafting, fighting, chatting etc etc..
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz Crafter are minorities. No one really cares about crafted gear. Why would I want to pay you 10k for that sword you made, when I could just go get it as a drop/quest reward? If they made a demand for crafting, that would infuriate people. Why do i have to buy it from you? Why can't I get it as a drop?
Oh yeah, why interact with other players in a Massively Multiplayer game...
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't.
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game.
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by RydesonOriginally posted by Jean-Luc_PicardOriginally posted by MasterfuzzfuzzCrafter are minorities. No one really cares about crafted gear. Why would I want to pay you 10k for that sword you made, when I could just go get it as a drop/quest reward? If they made a demand for crafting, that would infuriate people. Why do i have to buy it from you? Why can't I get it as a drop?
Oh yeah, why interact with other players in a Massively Multiplayer game... Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it.. Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't.
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game.
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
That makes sense. I hadn't really thought about it, but in a game like WoW, you wouldn't want crafters to come up with the best items because you've spent a couple months building a raid that you want players to get into. Maybe it's possible to craft the gear needed to get there, but again, you want players to use the systems you've made, so the crafting isn't really that exclusive and pretty much anyone can craft the gear so anyone can get into the raid that you spent so much time building.
But Master isn't entirely wrong. There aren't enough people telling developers that they want to craft everything for developers to change the systems they've made. If it were possible to have more people playing because of crafting, we'd have a minority complaining about grinding mats or money to buy the best crafted gear from the money grubbing crafters. But at that point, you'd have to wonder why people wanted the best gear for raids if the raids didn't give them the best gear to begin with.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz Crafter are minorities. No one really cares about crafted gear. Why would I want to pay you 10k for that sword you made, when I could just go get it as a drop/quest reward? If they made a demand for crafting, that would infuriate people. Why do i have to buy it from you? Why can't I get it as a drop?
Oh yeah, why interact with other players in a Massively Multiplayer game...
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't. (I disagree..I see many more against true crafting.. Much of that due to ego's and bragging rights.. Who wants Joe Blow walking around in crafted gear that is equal or close to Raid drop? Most have hissy fits from that because they feel that Joe Blow is encroaching on their bragging rights)
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. ( not so.. it would be very easy to put a level or skill requirement on such an uber sword of death, that keeps Mr Newbie from doing what you are implying.. In fact I find most games today do exactly that.. Even WoW has lvl requirements on the good stuff ) It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game. (sorry but you are starting to sound exactly like the raiders that REFUSE to accept that crafted gear should be on par with instanced drops)..
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
Originally posted by MasterfuzzfuzzCrafter are minorities. No one really cares about crafted gear. Why would I want to pay you 10k for that sword you made, when I could just go get it as a drop/quest reward? If they made a demand for crafting, that would infuriate people. Why do i have to buy it from you? Why can't I get it as a drop?
Oh yeah, why interact with other players in a Massively Multiplayer game...
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't.
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game.
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
That makes sense. I hadn't really thought about it, but in a game like WoW, you wouldn't want crafters to come up with the best items because you've spent a couple months building a raid that you want players to get into. Maybe it's possible to craft the gear needed to get there, but again, you want players to use the systems you've made, so the crafting isn't really that exclusive and pretty much anyone can craft the gear so anyone can get into the raid that you spent so much time building.
But Master isn't entirely wrong. There aren't enough people telling developers that they want to craft everything for developers to change the systems they've made. If it were possible to have more people playing because of crafting, we'd have a minority complaining about grinding mats or money to buy the best crafted gear from the money grubbing crafters. But at that point, you'd have to wonder why people wanted the best gear for raids if the raids didn't give them the best gear to begin with.
That is exactly the problem most current games suffer.. The devs design a timesink called "gear grind".. The game with all their lockouts, dungeons, raids and whatnots are all based on the formula of grinding instanced content like a hamster wheel, to get one tier of gear to advance to the next and so on, and so on.. To add in alternative crafting gear defies everything the devs did to created the dungeons and gear grind in the first place.. Lets me honest here.. At max level, what would you rather do, BUY or make end game tier 5 gear, or go farm and grind dungeons 100x to get the same stuff? Dev's need timesinks = subscription $$ and dungeon gear grinds is the easiest way of doing it..
well a goos example is the FF14 the first release I find that crafting pretty good with several items needed to be crafted to make the final item, like a sword it would need you to make the handle the blade, so other thing I don't remember then assemble everything, now they make it simplier.
thing is most people don't want to deal with crafting, so most of time devs prefer to work on equipment improvement over crafting, even more if the game is a F2P CS, a lot of helpers to help on improvement.
also you can gather several from several games what most people will think, example, TSW the raid people said the gear you get from pvp should NEVER be as strong as the ones from the raids because it was easyer to get and you didn't need a group(the don't need a group is true but all the rest is a lie, it was harder to get the pvp gear to 10.3 then it was to get a raid item to 10.4). in age of wushu since all gear MUST be crafted, I read there people asking for gear to drop from the intances....
the game fallen earth who was a pretty good example of crafting game (since everything there will need you to craft things) was never really popular and had to hit the F2P premium line of work.
so tell me why a dev would care about crafting if most players don't want then?
I think the most balanced system between crafting and adventuring was CoH. People found materials while on missions, found recipes while on missions, and could sell these things on the bazaar.
The crafted enhancements provided good bonuses, making them worth the time to craft.
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Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't. (I disagree..I see many more against true crafting.. Much of that due to ego's and bragging rights.. Who wants Joe Blow walking around in crafted gear that is equal or close to Raid drop? Most have hissy fits from that because they feel that Joe Blow is encroaching on their bragging rights)
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. ( not so.. it would be very easy to put a level or skill requirement on such an uber sword of death, that keeps Mr Newbie from doing what you are implying.. In fact I find most games today do exactly that.. Even WoW has lvl requirements on the good stuff ) It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game. (sorry but you are starting to sound exactly like the raiders that REFUSE to accept that crafted gear should be on par with instanced drops)..
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
Well I had the impression he had some strange aversion to a player-driven economy. Which isn't the more common comment you hear, which is players just not wanting a crafting-centric game. Less common than that is people who realize that it actually completely ruins PVE Combat in a game if an activity with no skill involved produces the same rewards as a very skill-intense activity.
Level requirements don't solve the problem. Leveling isn't a measure of skill, it's a measure of time investment, so unskilled players would still end up with the best gear.
Boss-killing requirements DO solve the problem. It ties the act of crafting to an activity which requires skill. Piggybacking the skill requirement means those recipes can produce gear similar in quality to the boss itself.
Whether I "sound like a raider" is irrelevant. Rewards should just obviously match the challenge they're earned from. If an activity isn't strongly challenging, it shouldn't be strongly rewarded. Are you really implying the game should give you everything for free? Why even have gear of varying quality then?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
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I am not sure this is true. Oh I don't doubt that there are more adventurer types than crafter types. Especially if you lump the crafter/adventurer in with the adventurers. But making a game isn't just about satisfying a demand. Its about making experiences and well... making fun.
You could then say of course if there is no demand they won't sell it, hence they won't make it. And with short run thinking thats true. But anyone worth their salt thinks long term. Problem is, short term thinking has a voracious appetite, it enters a media field chews up all the good and leaves nothing but bones when it leaves. Look to the music industry or movies and you see the parallels.
I must confess, that in all of the MMOs I have played I have consistently found crafting to be an utter annoyance.
Perhaps it is just my playstyle, but I was consistently feeling behind on either resource gathering or the actual crafting combined with trying to level as fast as I could (because I am an end-game players for the most part).
I think I also simply found crafting to be bland in World of Warcraft (the MMO I played the longest). I wish there had been something to do to spice up the whole thing. I know Engineers were able to go on quests to scavenge up new recipies like Jeeves, but no other professions had anything like that. Maybe that is something we can look forward to in the future MMOs!
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Several thing contribute to the issue; including the crafted gear being crap relative to easy drops, leveling right past the crafting without effort, and the short-term use of crafted gear before you're ten levels beyond it.
All of the years I played WoW, I never bothered with professions, at all, short of the cap. Rollover is just too quick, and there's not a step on the journey that can't be easily accomplished in quest greens.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It can be stretched out for months if you have gates that limit the speed at which a character can learn recipees or make key resources.
WoW's low-level crafted tiers are poorly scaled in terms of power and difficulty to gather resources - even with some of the simplifications they've done, too much of the crafting is still a relic of a time when levelling was much slower and I think it ends up giving a bad first impression of the experience.
It is about satisfying the demand for fun. If few thinks crafting is fun, no devs will spend the money to develop a good system.
Fun is subjective. So you need an audience that like crafting. Otherwise, you can argue until your face is blue, and no one is going to waste money on it. Are YOU going to spend your life savings on something with little return?
Now it is fine to debate the SIZE of the crafting market (which is not zero, since Tales of the Desert is alive and well) and it is futile to debate if you need a demand for it.
BTW, the movie industry gives us both The Avenger and Lincoln in the same year. I think it is awesome.
The only casual crafting (which i mean as a simple addition to combat centric games) that i have seen done well is Marvel Heroes.
1) They don't require you to craft a thousand useless items to level up. You just donate unwanted gear (as opposed to sell them).
2) They let you craft improvements to your existing gear (like turning a blue to a purple). So it is ALWAYS useful.
Even D3 crafting (which is useful at end game .. just go to Diabloprogress and see top players using crafted gear which are BIS for some slots) is seldom useful during the level up process.
If it's better gear, it's better gear -- especially if it's going to be a trip you take down the crafting line anyway because you want it for endgame.
You're absolutely right that you can choose to skip it, and that due to what I described earlier (Challenge vs. Reward) crafted gear is generally kept to only a few slots worth of gear because it involves no challenge of its own (because it's a side feature.) That's just how it works as a side feature. The tradeoff advantage is having core gameplay that's worth playing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
IF something is good, and you don't out level it in a playing session, people will want it.
DAoC - Bows, I had a guy that could make bows, and they were more useful for low level characters, than high level characters, it was easier to get a good bow at high levels if memory serves me right. The top quality bow you could use, that was crafted made a huge difference, and since it was a RvR game (they had the battleground for lower levels), you could kill people in less hits/time with a top crafted bow, verse something from a lower level dungeon/mob drop.
UO - GM weapons were very useful, as UO stuff wore down, and as it did, it would do less damage, so you often would go out with 2-4 weapons, and with it being pvp, you often didn't want to take out the best sword you had ever looted anywhere, as stuff wore out, and killing mobs was not a good use for it either. Almost everything crafted in UO was useful, but weapons probably most of all.
Vanguard - The raiding dropped gear, but it also dropped components to make crafted stuff, you could also tailor crafted items stat wise to go along with how people were doing their builds. I also played on the pvp server, so I do not know if this was more desired or not because of that, but my wife and I were two of our guilds best crafters and we had to ration our time/demands, as if we didn't, we would just be making stuff for people non-stop. Crafting was useful through the whole leveling process.
MMOs do it, but you have to want to make it useful, if you tack crafting/harvesting onto a game at the end, it is probably going to suck or be very situational. I would rather not have it, then to have it tacked on at the end and be mostly worthless, use the time to do something else to make the game better. I think they just need to say, 'we have crafting!', even if its an abomination like WAR at launch (not sure if it ever became much more).
Play now! Sleep later...
Some guy earlier in this thread mentioned SWG (Star Wars: Galaxies). In the end, it got fucked, but from early on they had the right idea. It all came down to mats, and you had to put in effort and time to make sure you got the best mats (this was done by harvesters, which you had to empty manually), and with the best mats came the best items/gear/houses even.
And not to forget the crafting part, part hassle part tedious. The result tho, worth it.
So yeah I agree with the idea of crafting taking a backseat, and I do hope minecraft and games like that can help turn it around.
MMO crafting is a touchy mechanic.. Some love it, but I think most don't care.. When I mean don't care, that normally comes from the part of the genre that ONLY wants to hack and slash to fame.. I believe their are multiple reasons why crafting isn't more popular in the MMO industry..
Most MMOs treat crafting like a mini game and a time and money sink...
Untill there is an MMO, that makes crafting and the acompanying economy the core of its financial world, crafting will keep feeling useless..
Good crafting and economy could be based on a PvP system based on fighting for resources. And a PvE system where the top dungeon drops can allways be improved by crafting or are just the top ingredients for the crafting. So getting the best gear would still require you to conquer those dungeons and raid instances and then finding the right crafter with the right recipe for the stuff you want..
A worldwide auction house however is not a good thing... i would prefer local autionhouses.. and billboards where crafters could advertise their wares, or stuff they could make. Even have player controlled crafting NPCs sitting in front of their homes that would sell their stuff and or do the actuall crafting process when the player is offline.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Now I wouldn't be adverse to allowing players to sit AFK selling their wares like we did in EQ bizarre.. To prevent lag issues, allow people to go AFK anywhere in the city to be a street vendor.. Take WoW for example.. I could set up in any of the starting cities, at any location.. I would have "vendor" only bags and allow people to click on me and buy from my bags.. NO commission lost.. However if you wish to use the local AH, they get 20%.. The commision needs to be stiff enough to make it matter..
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
No need to take it personal.. the topic is crafting and why it's not more popular and with that means analyzing the human psychology of social interaction, dependency and usefulness.. This is every aspects of the MMO game from crafting, fighting, chatting etc etc..
Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't.
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game.
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sadly tho Master is a vocal segment of the player base that devs listen too.. (shrug).. People like that do not want to rely on others for their game time.. However, that attitude isn't much different then ones with the open vs instance view either.. They are related, as some don't want to rely on open world mechanics for fun, but prefer to go solo or "small group" it..
Actually very few players are against crafting for the reason Master states. Have you seen many players saying the same thing? I sure haven't.
It's the game designers who understand it's a bad idea. It breaks the Challenge vs. Reward relationship. It means Joe Newbie can farm 10k gold from goblins for the best (player-crafted) sword in the game, bypassing any real challenge. It makes a lot more sense for the best rewards to only be available by skillfully defeating the toughest challenges in a game.
As for open world vs. instance, that isn't strongly related to the size of the group required to do the content, and is again primarily driven by game design and implementation considerations more than some vocal segment of the playerbase.
That makes sense. I hadn't really thought about it, but in a game like WoW, you wouldn't want crafters to come up with the best items because you've spent a couple months building a raid that you want players to get into. Maybe it's possible to craft the gear needed to get there, but again, you want players to use the systems you've made, so the crafting isn't really that exclusive and pretty much anyone can craft the gear so anyone can get into the raid that you spent so much time building.
But Master isn't entirely wrong. There aren't enough people telling developers that they want to craft everything for developers to change the systems they've made. If it were possible to have more people playing because of crafting, we'd have a minority complaining about grinding mats or money to buy the best crafted gear from the money grubbing crafters. But at that point, you'd have to wonder why people wanted the best gear for raids if the raids didn't give them the best gear to begin with.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That is exactly the problem most current games suffer.. The devs design a timesink called "gear grind".. The game with all their lockouts, dungeons, raids and whatnots are all based on the formula of grinding instanced content like a hamster wheel, to get one tier of gear to advance to the next and so on, and so on.. To add in alternative crafting gear defies everything the devs did to created the dungeons and gear grind in the first place.. Lets me honest here.. At max level, what would you rather do, BUY or make end game tier 5 gear, or go farm and grind dungeons 100x to get the same stuff? Dev's need timesinks = subscription $$ and dungeon gear grinds is the easiest way of doing it..
well a goos example is the FF14 the first release I find that crafting pretty good with several items needed to be crafted to make the final item, like a sword it would need you to make the handle the blade, so other thing I don't remember then assemble everything, now they make it simplier.
thing is most people don't want to deal with crafting, so most of time devs prefer to work on equipment improvement over crafting, even more if the game is a F2P CS, a lot of helpers to help on improvement.
also you can gather several from several games what most people will think, example, TSW the raid people said the gear you get from pvp should NEVER be as strong as the ones from the raids because it was easyer to get and you didn't need a group(the don't need a group is true but all the rest is a lie, it was harder to get the pvp gear to 10.3 then it was to get a raid item to 10.4). in age of wushu since all gear MUST be crafted, I read there people asking for gear to drop from the intances....
the game fallen earth who was a pretty good example of crafting game (since everything there will need you to craft things) was never really popular and had to hit the F2P premium line of work.
so tell me why a dev would care about crafting if most players don't want then?
I think the most balanced system between crafting and adventuring was CoH. People found materials while on missions, found recipes while on missions, and could sell these things on the bazaar.
The crafted enhancements provided good bonuses, making them worth the time to craft.
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--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
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Well I had the impression he had some strange aversion to a player-driven economy. Which isn't the more common comment you hear, which is players just not wanting a crafting-centric game. Less common than that is people who realize that it actually completely ruins PVE Combat in a game if an activity with no skill involved produces the same rewards as a very skill-intense activity.
Level requirements don't solve the problem. Leveling isn't a measure of skill, it's a measure of time investment, so unskilled players would still end up with the best gear.
Boss-killing requirements DO solve the problem. It ties the act of crafting to an activity which requires skill. Piggybacking the skill requirement means those recipes can produce gear similar in quality to the boss itself.
Whether I "sound like a raider" is irrelevant. Rewards should just obviously match the challenge they're earned from. If an activity isn't strongly challenging, it shouldn't be strongly rewarded. Are you really implying the game should give you everything for free? Why even have gear of varying quality then?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver