What i don't get, is people arguing about "time" .. If you have family, a child and a job to look after, WHY THE F**K ARE YOU PLAYING GAMES that requires commitment! Get a PS3/4 and play some arcade 5 minute craps if you really have to play games.
All i ever hear is "well i have a job and a family, so i don't have so much time...." Don't f**king PLAY! Use that time with your family, grow a pair and man-up, you lowlife piece of sh*t!
If i had a kid, i'd not miss a single minute of his/hers life because of a damned GAME!
why dont you just shut the F up, i have a family work 40 hours week/ spend time with my family, pay my bills and sometimes i want just little time to myself playing a game I like. And i do not miss any part of my kids life not at all, because i spend my time wisely and i work wisely, i dont go out and party shit like that. I use "my time" as my gaming time, as my hobby. And now to the game part of it i dont want no little punk to go to mommy and daddy to use their CCs to get something that can beat me in pvp where i can work my a$$ off to get the same dam thing.
then basically what is the dam point of playing the dam game in the first place when all you can do is just press the easy for the QQers i win button. LEARN TO PLAY THE CONTENT, LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS, LEARN THE DYNAMICS OF THE GAME. Dont be a wuss and cry about it when u cant win and wanna cheat and buy your way to equpiment. Remember equipment may help you win but, ITS SKILL AND THE KNOW HOW is the true secret.
Leave Allods for cash shop pay to win , allods is great game but i dont want to be meat for rich kids - when i can beat them whit gameplay , but now cant becouse i dont have real money!
I find it okay to sell geat, however I would stand away from sellling high level gear.
If a player wants to catch up to his friemds in a game and spends a few bucks on purchasing a low / mid-level weapon or armor of choice, nobody will be affected as long as the equipment is equivalent to other gear on the same level.
I myself have never bought any equipment in F2P games, however I would like to have the option to advance faster if I need to because of lack of time.
It does not end Bill, that principle is what the history of gaming shows, and you see it in the world everwhere. Unless an opposing force stops a change, or an alternative comes along such change will just continue. Hold on to your helmet, because we are only just starting to see how easymode and exploitive MMO's can become.
"Not pointing fingers at Trion here, as their gear-game isn’t that hard to do the legitimate way."
The problem is, it does not end, they start with selling you a unicorn mount and end up selling you top level gear. They start with potions that help you level up then hook you onto them like a drug addict. Every change for the worse in gaming has never started out as bad as it could be. Their marketing departments make sure of that.
"Point three: most naysayers base their arguments on a sense of equality that never existed in the first place. In the past, only time mattered, so players with less to do outside of the game always had the upper hand."
It is true that time mattered, but that was a fairer playing field than who has the most money.
"Exclusivity used to be the name of the game, now it's accessibility and fun with friends. We've grown and this trend is because of that."
Modern easyMMO's are certainly accessible but have little to do with fun with friends. The removal of the need for grouping, and the lack of activities ourside leveling have seen to that. If you are having fun with friends these days it is because you are all ready all on Skype or the like while playing, not because of what the MMO's gameplay is engendering.
There really isn't anything wrong with Real Money Trading in games I will name some games that have this for example
EVE Online, Plex Trading.
Diablo 3
APB (Original Version)
These three games had Real Money trading and they are great if Real Money trading were allowed in most games along with the function that also allowed players to cash out, or exchange items directly for other items via an auction house it would be great. There is no reason someone who quits a game should not be able to legally give their character to someone else who is actually going to play, or sell their character to another person but not the account and no reason that a game company should not support this for the most part unless its a MOBA like Smite or something.
Lets pretend we're playing solitaire. Would you be ok with paying 99c to get four aces to start? Paying to bypass the intended rules defeats the purpose of the game.
And yet..once upon a time in forgotten days of yore (before everything was bind on equip)...we used to give away our outdated gear to help the newbs get a leg up.
Twinking (in it's original sense, loading up a new toon with hand-me-downs) was a pretty much daily event, and a part of the social structure.
That strikes me as qualitatively preferable; but the effect of 'buying your own' twinks isn't substantially different in its game impact.
Blizzard just co-opted the practice for itself (account-bounds to get around the BOE they set in place to stop this sort of thing...dot dot...dot...)
You can still own a twink; you just don't need anyone but you...asocial-enabled.
Obvious and rather large difference here...
You didn't pay real money for the hand-me-downs.
Obtaining gear through the generosity of another player who's paying it forward to help another new player out is a very different from having to pull out the credit card and make a purchase on a game's Cash Shop, on eBay or some other website to obtain it.
There is no price tag on generosity, but it does "buy" good will or even a lasting in-game friendship.
You're confusing the 'what' with the 'how'. It's the 'how' being discussed here.
Lets face it, the cash shop in any game is there to make money for the developer / publisher, that's it. As long as people continue to buy from them they will continue to grow, like a cancer; and before anyone starts shouting about F2P games needing the income I believe that F2P games themselves are a cancer of poor design and mass produced P2W rubbish. B2P is a different animal. GW2 is a well made AAA game that has no P2W items in the cash shop. If ANet can make a good profit with this cosmetic model why do Trion and others see the need to sell gear with stats?
Concerning Trion in particular as they were mentioned multiple times in the article. Here with Rift you have a game that offers a full subscription option and yet STILL expects subscribers to pay extra, and not just for lockbox keys. Get killed and you have one free soulwalk. If you get killed again you are greeted with a button to BUY another soulwalk. Why is this not still on a timer as it used to be for subscribers? If someone pays a monthly fee to play the game then all of that games content should be available to them through pure gameplay, including the ability to open lockboxes aka DCUO.
I know that it's a lost cause but gamers everywhere should refuse to buy anything but cosmetic items from cash shops and derail this greed train. To the developers I say if your argument revolves around the need to be profitable then make better, more polished games and you would have no need for cash shops.
I'd like to point out that for nearly every single MMO on the market, there are 5 or 10 websites dealing in anything from gold, powerleveling, gear., etc. It's been that way since before I can remember.
So, before now, someone might go and buy gold to buy gear from the auction house, hey might pay to powerlevel their character to the max level, they might outright pay someone real money for the promise of a particular set of gear.
Keep in mind that this is generally a violation of any game's TOS (which Bill mentioned) but it still happens, regardless. Otherwise, why would new gold sellers be popping up all the time?
I would rather invest my money into the actual game that I'm playing. So if there is a cash shop, I will use it, especially in the event that there isn't a sub option. If you think this wasn't going on before cash shops, you're kidding yourself.
Rift is a perfect implementation IMO. They do sell gear, but it's nothing that you can't get from an instance. It's also far from the best gear in the game.
Perhaps the greatest advantage, though, is provided to the people who subscribe. Daily boosts, etc. help you through the content much quicker and I think it's a much more distinct advantage, having played Rift both ways.
The fact of the matter is that people play multiple games these days. The time when you dedicated all of your time and effort to a single MMO is over. I would ask the question, why should we be asked to progress through 20 days worth of content, 95% of which is pointless? I definitely agree with Bill that providing a good story and amazing content should be the solution to why people use cash shops, but the fact is that there are zero, yes ZERO, games out there who provide an game where all of the content in the game is focused on the main story line. It's 5% main story, 95% doing meaningless tasks for others. Result: People are interested in the beginning and the end. If we can axe the fluff I think that cash shops would disappear, but now that they are profiting from their fluff content, why would they?
Lets pretend we're playing solitaire. Would you be ok with paying 99c to get four aces to start? Paying to bypass the intended rules defeats the purpose of the game.
And yet..once upon a time in forgotten days of yore (before everything was bind on equip)...we used to give away our outdated gear to help the newbs get a leg up.
Twinking (in it's original sense, loading up a new toon with hand-me-downs) was a pretty much daily event, and a part of the social structure.
That strikes me as qualitatively preferable; but the effect of 'buying your own' twinks isn't substantially different in its game impact.
Blizzard just co-opted the practice for itself (account-bounds to get around the BOE they set in place to stop this sort of thing...dot dot...dot...)
You can still own a twink; you just don't need anyone but you...asocial-enabled.
Im against that too, but using real life currency to bypass in game rules is worse.
Developer spends time and money creating content. Developer then sells the rewards that would be earned by playing that content. So essentially, the developer is spending money to make the content, and then getting people to pay not to play it. I'm sorry but that's just wrong.
Game design has to change. Find other ways to incentivize the running of content rather than the gear treadmill.
Well, I've stated this many times before in past threads.
It doesn't matter to me that a game has a CS or that gear is sold on it. Some are making it sound like an ethical/moral issue. It's about money.
Since more and more Mmo's are coming out F2P or B2P, there's more necessity to have ways to make money. Whether or not the game is good is what will keep the players happy. Whales or no whales, the game is where it starts.
Bill pretty much encapsulates those against buying gear, maybe even those against RMT's in general. However, the reality has shown that Bill's group are in the minority. Otherwise, these things would not be made, not be making money, not be in development.
If/when the majority does decide to vote with their wallet and declare these things no longer are deemed 'acceptable' then we'll see change.
As long as its no more then starter gear to start you raiding then I am fine with that. End game drop and crafting should have some uber gear thats above whats sold in the cash shop. As long as this set of rules are in the game all should be well. As thats not pay to win, just a convenience item.
Personally I think this method is a double edge sword.. It cuts both ways and it has multiple pro's and con's on BOTH sides of the debate.. Even I have an opinion that I think both are OK and correct depending on your own personal beliefs.. Let me try to explain by example what I mean.. The common design for games today is time + skill = stuff.. Whether it be grinding out dungeons or camping raid bosses.. The problem I see as pointed out that some players do not have the time or the skill to acquire the stuff.. Does this mean that the raiders for example get to hoard the best gear because they do? Who is to say that IS the biblical be all, end all in gaming? Not I for sure.. As much as the raiders or top end PvP players will cry and scream that someone shouldn't be able to BUY the top end gear.. Imagine a piece of gear that can NOT be grinded but only purchased.. Those same elite players will cry and scream that there isn't an ingame mechanic to allow them to get said items.... Isn't that rather hypocritical? The only issue I would have with is that everything is locked out by some, while others can monopolize the rest.. It has to be both give and take..
Buying gear is not much different than using WoWhead. Suck it up fuzzballs.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
We used to pay for access to content. Now we pay for access to rewards. This changes is the result of a decline in the overall quality in content to the point it was no longer worth paying for. So developers took the path of least resistance to fix the issue. Make the rewards better and let players pay for those. Well, that combined with the number of players complaining about the games being unfair and they can't do the content but want the rewards anyway.
We used to pay for access to content. Now we pay for access to rewards. This changes is the result of a decline in the overall quality in content to the point it was no longer worth paying for. So developers took the path of least resistance to fix the issue. Make the rewards better and let players pay for those. Well, that combined with the number of players complaining about the games being unfair and they can't do the content but want the rewards anyway.
For those against devs selling game gear, what are your thoughts on letting players sell their old soulbound gear as an alternative?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit For those against devs selling game gear, what are your thoughts on letting players sell their old soulbound gear as an alternative?
Sure but buyer is company running the game and gives free game time to player in exchange.
Since they so hard are *trying* to get rid of 3rd party busines.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Originally posted by Loktofeit For those against devs selling game gear, what are your thoughts on letting players sell their old soulbound gear as an alternative?
I don't know. It all depends I guess. I suppose if it was done with in certain parameters within the game. It can be a problem for the long term economy of a game if the same types of items are continuously being spawned in as more and more players obtain the item, and later trade for in game money, but then are forever in circulation.
Comments
why dont you just shut the F up, i have a family work 40 hours week/ spend time with my family, pay my bills and sometimes i want just little time to myself playing a game I like. And i do not miss any part of my kids life not at all, because i spend my time wisely and i work wisely, i dont go out and party shit like that. I use "my time" as my gaming time, as my hobby. And now to the game part of it i dont want no little punk to go to mommy and daddy to use their CCs to get something that can beat me in pvp where i can work my a$$ off to get the same dam thing.
If a player wants to catch up to his friemds in a game and spends a few bucks on purchasing a low / mid-level weapon or armor of choice, nobody will be affected as long as the equipment is equivalent to other gear on the same level.
I myself have never bought any equipment in F2P games, however I would like to have the option to advance faster if I need to because of lack of time.
"Where does it end?"
It does not end Bill, that principle is what the history of gaming shows, and you see it in the world everwhere. Unless an opposing force stops a change, or an alternative comes along such change will just continue. Hold on to your helmet, because we are only just starting to see how easymode and exploitive MMO's can become.
"Not pointing fingers at Trion here, as their gear-game isn’t that hard to do the legitimate way."
The problem is, it does not end, they start with selling you a unicorn mount and end up selling you top level gear. They start with potions that help you level up then hook you onto them like a drug addict. Every change for the worse in gaming has never started out as bad as it could be. Their marketing departments make sure of that.
"Point three: most naysayers base their arguments on a sense of equality that never existed in the first place. In the past, only time mattered, so players with less to do outside of the game always had the upper hand."
It is true that time mattered, but that was a fairer playing field than who has the most money.
"Exclusivity used to be the name of the game, now it's accessibility and fun with friends. We've grown and this trend is because of that."
Modern easyMMO's are certainly accessible but have little to do with fun with friends. The removal of the need for grouping, and the lack of activities ourside leveling have seen to that. If you are having fun with friends these days it is because you are all ready all on Skype or the like while playing, not because of what the MMO's gameplay is engendering.
There really isn't anything wrong with Real Money Trading in games I will name some games that have this for example
EVE Online, Plex Trading.
Diablo 3
APB (Original Version)
These three games had Real Money trading and they are great if Real Money trading were allowed in most games along with the function that also allowed players to cash out, or exchange items directly for other items via an auction house it would be great. There is no reason someone who quits a game should not be able to legally give their character to someone else who is actually going to play, or sell their character to another person but not the account and no reason that a game company should not support this for the most part unless its a MOBA like Smite or something.
Obvious and rather large difference here...
You didn't pay real money for the hand-me-downs.
Obtaining gear through the generosity of another player who's paying it forward to help another new player out is a very different from having to pull out the credit card and make a purchase on a game's Cash Shop, on eBay or some other website to obtain it.
There is no price tag on generosity, but it does "buy" good will or even a lasting in-game friendship.
You're confusing the 'what' with the 'how'. It's the 'how' being discussed here.
Lets face it, the cash shop in any game is there to make money for the developer / publisher, that's it. As long as people continue to buy from them they will continue to grow, like a cancer; and before anyone starts shouting about F2P games needing the income I believe that F2P games themselves are a cancer of poor design and mass produced P2W rubbish. B2P is a different animal. GW2 is a well made AAA game that has no P2W items in the cash shop. If ANet can make a good profit with this cosmetic model why do Trion and others see the need to sell gear with stats?
Concerning Trion in particular as they were mentioned multiple times in the article. Here with Rift you have a game that offers a full subscription option and yet STILL expects subscribers to pay extra, and not just for lockbox keys. Get killed and you have one free soulwalk. If you get killed again you are greeted with a button to BUY another soulwalk. Why is this not still on a timer as it used to be for subscribers? If someone pays a monthly fee to play the game then all of that games content should be available to them through pure gameplay, including the ability to open lockboxes aka DCUO.
I know that it's a lost cause but gamers everywhere should refuse to buy anything but cosmetic items from cash shops and derail this greed train. To the developers I say if your argument revolves around the need to be profitable then make better, more polished games and you would have no need for cash shops.
I'd like to point out that for nearly every single MMO on the market, there are 5 or 10 websites dealing in anything from gold, powerleveling, gear., etc. It's been that way since before I can remember.
So, before now, someone might go and buy gold to buy gear from the auction house, hey might pay to powerlevel their character to the max level, they might outright pay someone real money for the promise of a particular set of gear.
Keep in mind that this is generally a violation of any game's TOS (which Bill mentioned) but it still happens, regardless. Otherwise, why would new gold sellers be popping up all the time?
I would rather invest my money into the actual game that I'm playing. So if there is a cash shop, I will use it, especially in the event that there isn't a sub option. If you think this wasn't going on before cash shops, you're kidding yourself.
Rift is a perfect implementation IMO. They do sell gear, but it's nothing that you can't get from an instance. It's also far from the best gear in the game.
Perhaps the greatest advantage, though, is provided to the people who subscribe. Daily boosts, etc. help you through the content much quicker and I think it's a much more distinct advantage, having played Rift both ways.
The fact of the matter is that people play multiple games these days. The time when you dedicated all of your time and effort to a single MMO is over. I would ask the question, why should we be asked to progress through 20 days worth of content, 95% of which is pointless? I definitely agree with Bill that providing a good story and amazing content should be the solution to why people use cash shops, but the fact is that there are zero, yes ZERO, games out there who provide an game where all of the content in the game is focused on the main story line. It's 5% main story, 95% doing meaningless tasks for others. Result: People are interested in the beginning and the end. If we can axe the fluff I think that cash shops would disappear, but now that they are profiting from their fluff content, why would they?
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Im against that too, but using real life currency to bypass in game rules is worse.
Developer spends time and money creating content. Developer then sells the rewards that would be earned by playing that content. So essentially, the developer is spending money to make the content, and then getting people to pay not to play it. I'm sorry but that's just wrong.
Game design has to change. Find other ways to incentivize the running of content rather than the gear treadmill.
Well, I've stated this many times before in past threads.
It doesn't matter to me that a game has a CS or that gear is sold on it. Some are making it sound like an ethical/moral issue. It's about money.
Since more and more Mmo's are coming out F2P or B2P, there's more necessity to have ways to make money. Whether or not the game is good is what will keep the players happy. Whales or no whales, the game is where it starts.
Bill pretty much encapsulates those against buying gear, maybe even those against RMT's in general. However, the reality has shown that Bill's group are in the minority. Otherwise, these things would not be made, not be making money, not be in development.
If/when the majority does decide to vote with their wallet and declare these things no longer are deemed 'acceptable' then we'll see change.
http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/12/28/you-are-all-cheaters/
Buying gear is not much different than using WoWhead. Suck it up fuzzballs.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I just looked at the comics.
I don't think I missed anything
Holy slippery slope argument batman lol
We used to pay for access to content. Now we pay for access to rewards. This changes is the result of a decline in the overall quality in content to the point it was no longer worth paying for. So developers took the path of least resistance to fix the issue. Make the rewards better and let players pay for those. Well, that combined with the number of players complaining about the games being unfair and they can't do the content but want the rewards anyway.
Amen
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sure but buyer is company running the game and gives free game time to player in exchange.
Since they so hard are *trying* to get rid of 3rd party busines.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
I don't know. It all depends I guess. I suppose if it was done with in certain parameters within the game. It can be a problem for the long term economy of a game if the same types of items are continuously being spawned in as more and more players obtain the item, and later trade for in game money, but then are forever in circulation.