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Poll: Would a difficulty setting solve the casual vs. hardcore dilemma?

13

Comments

  • VoqarVoqar Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Well, IF MMORPGs features more group content and far less solo ez-mode that'd be a good start.  As it is now in most so called massively multiplayer games you get 95% solo content and 5% group content (a dungeon every few levels and maybe some optional and easily avoidable outdoor "elite" content).

     

    Flip that around and make it so that you have about 5% solo content, and that immediately makes things more interesting.  Love to solo and hate this idea...let me recommend one of 3 billion single player games to you and why do you want to play MMOs if you just want to play with yourself?

     

    Next if you have WAY more instanced dungeons then sure, why not let people pick their difficulty for that?  Get in a group and tailor content to your liking and ability.  Scale rewards accordingly.

     

    One bit of EQ past that I loved was LDON and it sort of shocks me that nobody has ever taken that further or reused the idea.  It was basically somewhat randomized dungeons ala Diablo 1/2 such that you didn't always get the exact same layout or mob set, it had goals and was timed.  So you got pseudo random dungeon runs in 30-45 minutes earning points/badges/whatever (similar to in most endgame scenrios) to "buy" loot of your choosing.  There were sometimes random named that would drop extra loot, but not always.  So as with D2 zones or dungeons, you kind of had to explore it all to see what might be there.

    To me the LDON style of dungeon is 100% better than dungeons where you face the exact same layout of the exact same mobs and the exact same bosses that follow the exact same script every time you do the instance...repeat times infinity when you're grinding endgame insances.

     

    And...with LDON you could scale the difficulty...which is one reason I bring it up.

     

    So it's not like the idea of scaling difficulty has never been done with pre-endgame content.

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
     

    What games other than MMO's offer the option for multiple play styles within the same game, past or present?  MMOs are a breed of their own because so many developers try to cater to such a wide variety of gamers in a single MMO rather than create multiple MMOs for each target audience.  You equate different play styles other than your own as losers and I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment.

     

    The perception of effort and risk is rather relative and personal and I find it rather arrogant that you or any developer thinks they have the right to set the standard when applying them to multiple types of gamers and content.  I don't think gaming should be in the business of promoting second class citizenship as it were.

     

    If you want to play or make a hardcore MMO, then do it, but if you are going to try and cater to casuals, then don't treat them like second class gamers or better yet, stop making casual games where hardcores still get to dictate reward systems.

    Multiple play styles?  There are already plenty of games for casuals out there.  I can't think of one MMO that is hardcore and casual.  The WoW model of casual Themepark is dying.  It's not financially viable.  And I find your opinion arrogant that if a game doesn't cater to you, that you're suddenly a second class citizen.  It's the developer's game, they can do what they want.  You want to go tell AMC that 'The Walking Dead' is too violent and that they must change that or they're being arrogant?

    The entire premise of your argument is absurd.  It's a game.  It's a product and EQN very likely won't be offering what you want.  Get a grip and move on if that's the case.  

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Sorry OP but I had a vision of S&M servers with the mobs being the "S" and us being the "M"...just... no.
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  • JerYnkFanJerYnkFan Member UncommonPosts: 342
    I like Vanguard so I don't mind difficulty such as XP loss or corpse runs, but if it's FFAPvP full loot with six hours camping a boss, thanks, but no thanks.
  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,207

    When you allow an easier difficulty to essentially net the same rewards, players will flock to said easier route.

    You're just going to divide the player base even more and that's not a good idea.

  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,643
    Originally posted by Alders

    When you allow an easier difficulty to essentially net the same rewards, players will flock to said easier route.

    You're just going to divide the player base even more and that's not a good idea.

    Some will flock.  Others will be like why bother.  Of course this doesn't bother the solo player, only those that want to play in a community. 

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
     

    What games other than MMO's offer the option for multiple play styles within the same game, past or present?  MMOs are a breed of their own because so many developers try to cater to such a wide variety of gamers in a single MMO rather than create multiple MMOs for each target audience.  You equate different play styles other than your own as losers and I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment.

     

    The perception of effort and risk is rather relative and personal and I find it rather arrogant that you or any developer thinks they have the right to set the standard when applying them to multiple types of gamers and content.  I don't think gaming should be in the business of promoting second class citizenship as it were.

     

    If you want to play or make a hardcore MMO, then do it, but if you are going to try and cater to casuals, then don't treat them like second class gamers or better yet, stop making casual games where hardcores still get to dictate reward systems.

    Multiple play styles?  There are already plenty of games for casuals out there.  I can't think of one MMO that is hardcore and casual.  The WoW model of casual Themepark is dying.  It's not financially viable.  And I find your opinion arrogant that if a game doesn't cater to you, that you're suddenly a second class citizen.  It's the developer's game, they can do what they want.  You want to go tell AMC that 'The Walking Dead' is too violent and that they must change that or they're being arrogant?

    The entire premise of your argument is absurd.  It's a game.  It's a product and EQN very likely won't be offering what you want.  Get a grip and move on if that's the case.  

    I'm not demanding that EQN be casual, only that they pick their audience and stick with it.  Other than Wizard 101, I can't think of any other casual MMO that doesn't foist hardcore mechanics and content onto their player base for the mid to high end game in the form of raiding or heroics or faction grinds.  Hell, most of those "casual" MMOs don't even offer shared kills and shared loot, they have long spawn timers on key mobs with incredibly random and painstaking loot / quest drops as well as draconian resource management systems for mana and endurance. 

    The last thing I want is another WoW, the ultimate bait and switch casual / hardcore game out there.  Of course, from your perspective, anything short of EvE Online is probably stupidly casual, but I can assure you that is not the case from a casual gamer's perspective. 

     

    You're the one who needs to get a grip as you constantly argue for what you want in this game, as if you're entitled but no one else is and that is truly absurd.  We already know that niche games can do quite well financially, if they are well made.  It has already been postulated by several industry leaders in the past that niche MMOs are the future of the genre.  You can believe or deny that premise all you want, but it is a very real possibility.

    image
  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687

    That is just it. It has been easy for so long, I think players are bored. I'm not saying it should be an Asian Grind Game, but I don't want a WoW Easy Clone either. Old School EQ1 was great in almost every aspect. The death mechanic kept idiocy to a minimum because it took so long to get your corpse back. The difficulty level of the mobs required grouping unless you were an AE Kite Class. I met a lot of amazing people while I played EQ both as a player and as a Guide. The social interaction has degraded so much in today's MMO Market. The Genre needs to get back to its roots and remember that it is an MMO not a Single player game.

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  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    UO had Siege Perilous back in the day, and it was very good fun.

    I think the idea of a "challenge" server is a great one.

    Should be able to pull together a couple of thousand of people whatever to make it worth coding.

    As long as those people accept that updates and "balance" to their specific ruleset is going to be less common than the more populated "normal" servers.

    I'd be down.

     

  • ComafComaf Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
    Originally posted by KingsField
    Single player and co-op games have had difficulty settings (easy, normal, hard, etc.) for decades. What if EverQuest Next had something similar? At the very least, I envision an advanced server type that alters the strength of MOBs, the death penalty, etc. to suit the desires of hardcore players who crave that old-school MMORPG feeling. Should players be allowed to segregate themselves like this or do you prefer a one-size-fits-all approach to difficulty?

    A second and possibly third server type - if for any reason to stop this drama prancing.

    image
  • ComafComaf Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    That is just it. It has been easy for so long, I think players are bored. I'm not saying it should be an Asian Grind Game, but I don't want a WoW Easy Clone either. Old School EQ1 was great in almost every aspect. The death mechanic kept idiocy to a minimum because it took so long to get your corpse back. The difficulty level of the mobs required grouping unless you were an AE Kite Class. I met a lot of amazing people while I played EQ both as a player and as a Guide. The social interaction has degraded so much in today's MMO Market. The Genre needs to get back to its roots and remember that it is an MMO not a Single player game.

    Shame you aren't managing an mmorpg. 

     

    /signed!

    image
  • ManakarManakar Member UncommonPosts: 110
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    That is just it. It has been easy for so long, I think players are bored. I'm not saying it should be an Asian Grind Game, but I don't want a WoW Easy Clone either. Old School EQ1 was great in almost every aspect. The death mechanic kept idiocy to a minimum because it took so long to get your corpse back. The difficulty level of the mobs required grouping unless you were an AE Kite Class. I met a lot of amazing people while I played EQ both as a player and as a Guide. The social interaction has degraded so much in today's MMO Market. The Genre needs to get back to its roots and remember that it is an MMO not a Single player game.

    One thing is sure, if they go back to the "you have to spend 30 minutes getting a group together before being able to do anything in the game" model, the game will fail so hard that we will most likely not see another attempt at an "AAA" sandbox anytime soon. And I definitely don't want that.

    I'd rather have this game pave the way for more quality AAA sandbox MMOs by not being too extreme in any way, and by catering to a broad range of play styles, like any sandbox should anyway.

    If that means group finder or raid finder then I hope it does take 30mins to find a group. that way the people that like group finder can go back to GW2 or WoW.. =p

  • ManakarManakar Member UncommonPosts: 110
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

     

    No, that means two things:

    1) Yeah, tools to find a group. That doesn't mean an auto-teleport to inside a dungeon. That means a tool to find other people to play with easier, then you still have to go to the place "manually", so to say. The tool would simply replace spamming the chat channel, and would permit to attend other activities while waiting, nothing more.

    And by the way, GW2 doesn't have a dungeon/raid finder, you need to make your group and go to the dungeon.

    2) Being able to do stuff solo. Yeah, that's gonna make some people cry, but it's inevitable. The days when the simple rat was impossible to kill alone are long gone, dead and burried, and for the best. Even more if the game is a sandbox, it has to cater to both the times when one has only 1 hours to play as well as the 4+ hours non stop sessions.

    Ok the endgame instances with GW2 you had to find a group but with the open world Pve stuff everyone just did the events together.. You ddint even have to communicate.. oh look a big dragon everyone around zerg it.. oh a big queen bee get it!! So if its like that then it sucks.. With EQ you basically had to put groups together for almost everything..

  • Siris23Siris23 Member UncommonPosts: 388
    Difficulty settings in WoW (LFR, normal, heroic and now flex) only fueled more hardcore vs casual hate, I don't see why it would be different anywhere else.
  • munx4555munx4555 Member Posts: 169
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    That is just it. It has been easy for so long, I think players are bored. I'm not saying it should be an Asian Grind Game, but I don't want a WoW Easy Clone either. Old School EQ1 was great in almost every aspect. The death mechanic kept idiocy to a minimum because it took so long to get your corpse back. The difficulty level of the mobs required grouping unless you were an AE Kite Class. I met a lot of amazing people while I played EQ both as a player and as a Guide. The social interaction has degraded so much in today's MMO Market. The Genre needs to get back to its roots and remember that it is an MMO not a Single player game.

     

    Indeed, I don't think anyone wants dark souls like difficulty or jrpg like grind.

    However It has to be grindy, even if not to the same extent as a jrpg, grind has almost been removed in today's mmorpgs, but I fail to see how that is supposed to be positive, you spend 5 days rushing trough a world the devs spent 4-5 years creating, only to end up at a endgame that will grow boring quickly if its all that is left to do.

    Also the Death Penalty is something eq hit spot on, It made you think twice about what you attack, or what hole you jumped into, it encourage grouping, aswell as player interaction if you managed to get your corpse stuck (being able to drag corpses was awesome).

    I also miss how many sub roles eq had, it made raids/grouping alot more complex and fun, Pullers, Crowd Controllers, Buffers and Off tanks have become a very uncommon thing in mmos, being left with only dps as a option if you dont go tank or healer is flawed, and boring.

     

    The more I think about it, I am against a difficulty setting no mather the shape, the difficulty of eq1 is something anyone would be able to handle, I would know as I started eq1 as a clueless 11 year old.

  • munx4555munx4555 Member Posts: 169
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Manakar

    With EQ you basically had to put groups together for almost everything..

    And this wouldn't work in a modern MMO. Having to put a group together just to go hunt some deers or kill a rat is both tedious and also ridiculous. Putting a group together to wipe an orc camp threatening the village, or to kill a dragon, that makes sense indeed.

    You didn't have to put groups together to hunt "rats or deer", solo play was entirely possible as any class, however you would level slower as you wouldnt be fighting lower lvl mobs.

    Also soloing had more risk involved as recovering your corpse could become more difficult.

    Think alot of people get the wrong idea when people mention eq difficulty or grouping.

  • ManakarManakar Member UncommonPosts: 110
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Manakar

    With EQ you basically had to put groups together for almost everything..

    And this wouldn't work in a modern MMO. Having to put a group together just to go hunt some deers or kill a rat is both tedious and also ridiculous. Putting a group together to wipe an orc camp threatening the village, or to kill a dragon, that makes sense indeed.

    You only think it wouldnt work.. You dont know for sure because every dev has been scared to try it ever since WoW..

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Alders

    When you allow an easier difficulty to essentially net the same rewards, players will flock to said easier route.

    You're just going to divide the player base even more and that's not a good idea.

    Some will flock.  Others will be like why bother.  Of course this doesn't bother the solo player, only those that want to play in a community. 

    You've never played an MMO/know much about people, do you?

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Manakar

    With EQ you basically had to put groups together for almost everything..

    And this wouldn't work in a modern MMO. Having to put a group together just to go hunt some deers or kill a rat is both tedious and also ridiculous. Putting a group together to wipe an orc camp threatening the village, or to kill a dragon, that makes sense indeed.

    And in other MMOs, you didn't have to put a group together, it was simply the best way to do things.

     

    I knew many people that chose to solo their way to level cap in DAoC, didn't change the fact that grouping netted the fastest xp and some of the better loot sometimes. As it should be. Grouping is harder so it should have better rewards.

  • ReRollerReRoller Member Posts: 61

    In a quest grinder the designer picks how high the player has to jump. Some players don't make it and they either practice till successful or quit. Now, people quitting sounds bad. So, as long as the challenge bar is left up to the designer the level of difficulty will be set well below average. This way, most make it over the first try and few ever experience a sense of deficiency.

    The problem being respect. No one respects anything accomplished in a game where everything is trivial to get. Attitudes like "Your max level, so what, I am sure monkeys could be trained to do that" aren't just hardcore they are the basic essence of respect. No one respects a trophy costing nothing.

    On the other side, in a mob grinder the player picks the bar he can or wants to jump over, so long as it includes killing lots of rats.


  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by ReRoller

    In a quest grinder the designer picks how high the player has to jump. Some players don't make it and they either practice till successful or quit. Now, people quitting sounds bad. So, as long as the challenge bar is left up to the designer the level of difficulty will be set well below average. This way, most make it over the first try and few ever experience a sense of deficiency.

    The problem being respect. No one respects anything accomplished in a game where everything is trivial to get. Attitudes like "Your max level, so what, I am sure monkeys could be trained to do that" aren't just hardcore they are the basic essence of respect. No one respects a trophy costing nothing.

    On the other side, in a mob grinder the player picks the bar he can or wants to jump over, so long as it includes killing lots of rats.

     

    Maybe the real issue is that for most casual gamers, these are entertainment products, not life replacements.  No one gets a trophy for nothing, you merely think their efforts don't count compared to yours.

    image
  • ReRollerReRoller Member Posts: 61


    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by ReRoller In a quest grinder the designer picks how high the player has to jump. Some players don't make it and they either practice till successful or quit. Now, people quitting sounds bad. So, as long as the challenge bar is left up to the designer the level of difficulty will be set well below average. This way, most make it over the first try and few ever experience a sense of deficiency. The problem being respect. No one respects anything accomplished in a game where everything is trivial to get. Attitudes like "Your max level, so what, I am sure monkeys could be trained to do that" aren't just hardcore they are the basic essence of respect. No one respects a trophy costing nothing. On the other side, in a mob grinder the player picks the bar he can or wants to jump over, so long as it includes killing lots of rats.  
    Maybe the real issue is that for most casual gamers, these are entertainment products, not life replacements.  No one gets a trophy for nothing, you merely think their efforts don't count compared to yours.

    No, they count but rolled a 10 needing a 12. C'est la vie.

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu Member Posts: 336

    ROFL

     

    You crazy MMO-Fanatics still don't understand.

    1. There is no hardcore vs casual debate - it is pure elitist propaganda.

    2. All MMOs are easy - as long as you have the proper items.

    There is only one intelligent solution - remove the gear progression!

    1. Hard encounters would always be hard - no way to "cheat" by wearing epic gear.

    2. Everybody really has to learn his class and play his proper role, no more rushing through content, just to get to the endboss-drops.

    3. Only the skill of the player counts and not the time he has invested.

    4. Finally, an end of all social problems created by gear-centered gameplay. MMO should be primarily a social experience (the first letters "MM" stand for "massive multiplayer").

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  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    My only concerns is about playing with my friends.

     

    Let's say I pick the hardcore server.  Friend A pick regular, and friend B pick noob.

     

    If I want to play with them I start a new character and level up in 2 hours and stop progressing my main character?

     

    Instead of thinking in a dividing way, you must think in a global way, to include everyone.

     

    The casuals need to see most of the game and experience most of it...they should not miss more than 10-20% of the game if they play it "seriously"...but they should never be close to completing it, yet complete some basics...such as reaching the level cap...yet beyond the level cap there are AAs, gear...and so much you can work on.  I still extremely in favor of a zone level cap, if you go in Crushbone, you are level 7, period, live with it...work on AAs and gear (yes there should be good gear to work on in every zone, so it is never abandonned wasteland).

     

    Geez...here I am ranting again...yet not even sure I could find the time to play a MMO these days, LOL!

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  • stayBlindstayBlind Member UncommonPosts: 512
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The only thing I would support would be a server wide difficulty..  Example:

         Easy server = all mobs have 20% less health, and hit 10% less..

         Regular server = Game plays as designed

         Advanced server = all mobs have 20% more health, and hit 10% harder.

         Pro server = all mobs have 40% more health, and hit 20% harder

         Elite server= all mobs have 60% more health, and hit 30^ harder..

    Once you create a character on those servers, that is where they stay.. No transferring outside the server group..

    I know that this is an example, but I really hate when a game increases health pools and damage then deems this as a valid way to make content 'harder'.

    I would be fine with difficulty settings as long as the rewards for each setting are unique e.g. You can not get the same rewards from Easy difficulty that you can get from Hard difficulty.

    Also, the difficulty settings would have to scale something like how smart mob AI is rather than just health/damage numbers.

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