So in EQNext the action bar system will be using a limited design to force builds between combat.
4,,, yes I said 4,,, will be weapon skills
And 4,,, yes again I said 4,,,, will be class utilities.
So that's a total of 8 skills at a time.
So in other words, it's like EQ1. I clearly remember haivng only 8 slots to work with back then. It forced me to make choices and decide which skills and spells were the most valuable for whatever I was doing at the time.
What's the problem again?
It is nothing like EQ.. The only common ground they share is that your hotkeys 1-8 are active.. We all know that in EQ you can pick and choose ALL 8 slots without question.. If I want to load up on 8 damage spells.. I can.. if I want to load up on 8 heal and buffs spells I can..... EQN gives you NONE of that..
in EQN your buttons 1-4 are FIXED based on your weapon line up.. So if you are a Priest for example using a mace and shield.. your 1-4 buttons are DPS buttons that will NEVER change, unless you change weapons line up and class.. And depending on your class, your buttons 5-8 have limited flexibility.. Again assuming Priest button 5 is a "movement" skill.. YOU can NOT just swap that out for any skill you want.. You can only swap it for a different movement skill.. Same result, just dressed differently.. This multi classing isn't as flexible as many believe it will be..
So in EQNext the action bar system will be using a limited design to force builds between combat.
4,,, yes I said 4,,, will be weapon skills
And 4,,, yes again I said 4,,,, will be class utilities.
So that's a total of 8 skills at a time.
Sort of like GW1 really. But I remember GW1 getting a lot of heated talk because of that.
Which is why GW2 entered with larger number of advalible skills at a time, while trying to keep its limited action bar design for its previous fans.
Well they also screwed up, by the way they design it with half being weapon skills, and other half being class utilities. That took away basically 25-50% of the freedom of choice when you think about it.
but like I said, GW2 still increased the number of skills you have access to in combat, even if it was done in a way that went over the head of the supporters of GW1's limited action bar.
GW2 featured class mechanics skills. These were skills that were unique to the class you were, and wasnt part of the action bar itself.
like guardians has virtues and engineer has tool belt, etc.
should EQNext also have class mechanics to make things feel more unique and interesting?
otherwise it seems like the game play will just consist of mindless button mashing even worst than GW2, since there will be less things to manage in combat other than cooldowns.
how can such a system be improved? That's what we should be considering. How to improve the limited action bar system.
So GW2 did it wrong in my opinion. You can have at least half the functions of EQ with only 4 assignable buttons after you get a bunch of support skills. If you get for instance regen, thorn coat, sow, skin like. Those were all buffs in EQ. IF they last similar time then you can switch your skills out in between battles to make this mechanic work. Then you may have stuff like root and nuke on first 2 weapon slots and snare and dot on another 2 weapon slots. You can switch weapons for a heal and an aditional or aoe nuke perhaps. From there you still have 2 more buttons of the 8 to use extra skills from your chosen class or another class you picked up.
If it works anything like this it will be good. They could also do something similar to the f-keys that guildwars 2 did but I am not as big of a fan of how that all worked. It did work but I think my system of longer lasting buffs would be better overall.
So in other words, it's like EQ1. I clearly remember haivng only 8 slots to work with back then. It forced me to make choices and decide which skills and spells were the most valuable for whatever I was doing at the time.
What's the problem again?
It's boring and too simple, too easy to master most likely.
And we know that because people who've actually played the game are telling us that, right?
I know it is boring because games with few abilities where stuff gets too simple is boring, you get tired of it fast... It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master. Having many skills with complicated combos and such is way more interesting and makes you have a choice on how to react in PVP for example not just same old combo over and over which it actually turns into with too few skills. It is boring.
Originally posted by tkreep In normal mmos you still just be in a rotation around 6-8 skills in combat.
You know the difference between a rotation and situational skills right?
You see that UI? Yeah his rotation is 6 to 8 skils, but he also has about 20 other utility skills there that can be used when the situation requires it.
Well as a warrior in GW2 most of the time I use my great sword for killing multiple mobs at the same time but when the situation changes like facing a champion boss on my own I switch to rifle and attack him at a range so he hardly gets to touch me otherwise I would die fast. If I used Greatsword I would not stand a chance even tho it does do more damage to the boss but rifle has more survivability. And the rifle has totally different types of skills from the sword like crippling the enemy.
Yes but according to most here the underlined is not working in that game but I know what you mean my guardian uses a two handed sword for the same reason and I switch to a scepter and focus for champs and ranged. I also have an engineer that I run pistol and shield but for close up I use my tool kit to go close combat it works really well in PvP cause no one uses it there and most players don't expect to pop in and fight face to face as one.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Not sure why this new generation of gamers are so into this MOBA style of gaming for their MMO.
8 skills to chose from doesnt suddenly mean the game is deep and engaging. Less is more principal doesnt apply here. I remembe rhaving 50+ skills in everquest 2, even more then that in WoW, and Aion. Yet you want me to play a game for months, even years, knowng ill only have 8 skills to work with because there is some tactical element to it?
I wonder how well that is workng for guild wars 2...
Eight skills at a time. Not only eight skills ever.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So in other words, it's like EQ1. I clearly remember haivng only 8 slots to work with back then. It forced me to make choices and decide which skills and spells were the most valuable for whatever I was doing at the time.
What's the problem again?
It's boring and too simple, too easy to master most likely.
And we know that because people who've actually played the game are telling us that, right?
I know it is boring because games with few abilities where stuff gets too simple is boring, you get tired of it fast... It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master. Having many skills with complicated combos and such is way more interesting and makes you have a choice on how to react in PVP for example not just same old combo over and over which it actually turns into with too few skills. It is boring.
Something worth considering is that in a MOBA you have multiple characters you can choose from which eliminates the "only 4 skills gets boring" issue. In EQN, supposedly you can change certain things on the fly, which affords you a wider range of choices in an even more immediate fashion than a MOBA does.
When looking at any individual mechanic of the game, try to take into account the various surrounding features that we've heard about so far. Each piece starts to make more sense when you look at it in the grander scheme of things.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have no problem with the limited number of slots as long as there are a good variety of skills to choose from to put in those slots. I like the idea of experimenting with different skill combinations.
A problem that I have with GW2 is that you quickly unlock the few skills for a particular weapon and that's it for skills for that weapon.
It sounded like in EQNext, the weapon skills change based on which classes you are using. So if you discover and unlock new classes as you explore the world, it sounds like you discover and unlock new weapon skills.
Sounds goods to me so far, although we still don't know all of the details for sure.
It all sounds good until you blind fold yourself and look at raw numbers NOT dressed up.. Let me give you and example I posted earlier in another thread.. You are playing a Wizzard carrying a mace and orb.. Your primary attack button is #1 and it does a lightning bolt that hits for 100 points of damage.. The next day you unlock and discover the Sorcerer class.. SWEEEET.. However requires you to use a pair of daggers.. Your primary attack button is #1 and it's a fireball that does 100 points of damage.... NOW, let me ask you...... Is that truly TWO different classes, or just one that dressed differently?
Back in the day things like did matter because of resistance, but in today's mmo.. EVERYTHING hits.. I can use fire weapons on fire mobs..... go figure.. LOL
Please remember everyone that mmorpg developers aren't designing skills the same as they used to. Skills nowadays have more layers of depth to them. More nuanced effects that give just one skill different advantages when used in different situations.
I used to play EQ2. This is an example of god awful skills design. Vacuum Field II That is an inefficient use of a hotbar space. It is hotbar filler. It is skill bloat.
First I want to see how combat plays out in the beta tests, then I will decide whether this is a good or bad idea.
In fact, I wouldn't mind it if they tried a different style, something that was a little closer to what Neverwinter has (left and right click your main attacks, q, e, and r are you main skills, and 1 and 2 are your super skills), but without copying it. Or maybe they could go the PSO2 route with main attacks being mapped to your left and right mouse buttons and holding shift while using those buttons use different skills.
I don't mind the 8 skill bar. I used around that in combat most times. In some cases I might grab something else and it was nice to have, but it doesn't kill me to be limited to 8.
What I don't really like about this setup is the selection limitations. I think 4 skills to the weapon are too many, or rather more pointedly I'd rather have more selectable skills. 2 and 6 or 3 and 5 would be better. Then on top of that they really put a clamp on what skills you get.
1 skill is, and I think it always is, dedicated to movement. That leaves 3 lousy skills that you have to choose from for fighting. I suppose you could say that the weapon you choose is a choice and I agree that is a bit better, but they come in a package that we don't know how selectable the package is.
I'm not really counter to the whole thing though. I'll give it a try no matter the game has too many features that interest me to not give it a try.
Originally posted by Kuro1n It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master.
I honesty think its a brilliant idea! possibly the best thing they had in GW2 imo. Id even go as far as to say a swing on mb1 and a block or left hand swing for mb2 and some buffs/passives on 1234 then it would be awesome. the swing animations should differ though, but im sure you get my point.
So in other words, it's like EQ1. I clearly remember haivng only 8 slots to work with back then. It forced me to make choices and decide which skills and spells were the most valuable for whatever I was doing at the time.
What's the problem again?
It's boring and too simple, too easy to master most likely.
And we know that because people who've actually played the game are telling us that, right?
I know it is boring because games with few abilities where stuff gets too simple is boring, you get tired of it fast... It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master. Having many skills with complicated combos and such is way more interesting and makes you have a choice on how to react in PVP for example not just same old combo over and over which it actually turns into with too few skills. It is boring.
Something worth considering is that in a MOBA you have multiple characters you can choose from which eliminates the "only 4 skills gets boring" issue. In EQN, supposedly you can change certain things on the fly, which affords you a wider range of choices in an even more immediate fashion than a MOBA does.
When looking at any individual mechanic of the game, try to take into account the various surrounding features that we've heard about so far. Each piece starts to make more sense when you look at it in the grander scheme of things.
Well on the fly out of combat, it is still just same few options in combat really. Sure it will be funny for a while but for anyone who is not casual this will be quite a shallow game much like watching a movie. Maybe you do not enjoy PVP and such and we really haven't gotten any information regarding that so I am not really holding my breath but I do believe this game will be as wast as the ocean and as deep as a puddle.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
So having 8 skill button is bad to compare 1-3 button macro that chain skills while u watch tv?:p (rift) ;D
Just good there is limit for skills, i want watch game play rather then my hotbars all time.
Well some of us plays games / classes which are more demanding.
I for one thought it worked fantastically in GW 1, not so much in GW 2 though. In GW 1 it was like a minigame, I had to build a deck of abilities that all worked in conjunction with my self and my teammates and was tailored for the encounters I was about to have. It felt great being able to have that kind of control over how my character played. Probably why I like The Secret World more than I should, I like deck building skill systems and hopefully EQN is more like GW1 or TSW and not GW 2.
Originally posted by Kuro1n It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master.
So what MLG championships have you won lately?
/facepalm
Oh, hello to you too douchebag, I don't really enjoy MOBA games, I play them occasionally with my friends because they have some interest in them but I do produce items through the workshop for it. On the other hand I did play Tribes ascend on high level and used to lead a clan of 400-500 members something in Lineage 2. A game where you have 36 skills to use at least in gfinal if you play something other than archer.
Shoot a projectile through it. Leap through it. Use it as a group travel movement buff, or as a group mob pull, or as an escape move. Use it in any combination of ways depending on what you like and when you think it's appropriate. And it's only 1 hotbar slot.
The ability bar design screams to me "designed for consoles". I suspect the game design team will be more focused on the game running smoothly on PS4/XBOX1 and not the PC with a lot of the design elements developed this way.
Im fine with 8 skills. Wow went way overboard on skills. I did not like having so many skill bars taking up screenspace. Now you may think 8 skills is too far the other way, but remember that you will be changing between classes. I wouldnt like remembering 16 skills x 5 classes. 8 is fine.
Originally posted by Kuro1n It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master.
So what MLG championships have you won lately?
/facepalm
Oh, hello to you too douchebag, I don't really enjoy MOBA games, I play them occasionally with my friends because they have some interest in them but I do produce items through the workshop for it. On the other hand I did play Tribes ascend on high level and used to lead a clan of 400-500 members something in Lineage 2. A game where you have 36 skills to use at least in gfinal if you play something other than archer.
Hey guess what? This may not be the game for you then. There are plenty of MMOs that offer what you want, god forbid one be different.
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It just so happens to work well with controllers. I guess that happened accidentally. Coincidentally PS4 launches this year. ( Rockniss scratches his head, a question mark appears above his head, suddenly a light bulb appears and he smiles) I think I know why there are 8 skill slots everyone!!!
Originally posted by Kuro1n It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master.
So what MLG championships have you won lately?
/facepalm
Oh, hello to you too douchebag, I don't really enjoy MOBA games, I play them occasionally with my friends because they have some interest in them but I do produce items through the workshop for it. On the other hand I did play Tribes ascend on high level and used to lead a clan of 400-500 members something in Lineage 2. A game where you have 36 skills to use at least in gfinal if you play something other than archer.
Hey guess what? This may not be the game for you then. There are plenty of MMOs that offer what you want, god forbid one be different.
Actually I plan on testing this because I hope it will provide something 'different' as in voxel world but the skill system is horrible, it is just another version of GW2s system which got really dull. boring and easy after a while.
And no there are not a lot of other games out there for me, so far just 2, EVE Online and L2. EVE is a bit dull due to just having a few modules on a ship but makes up for it by being harder to master in other regards. Thing is both games are 10 years old and I'd like to play something modern that can keep me entertained, seems that is just a dream for us that enjoys good gameplay and PVP though.
Comments
It is nothing like EQ.. The only common ground they share is that your hotkeys 1-8 are active.. We all know that in EQ you can pick and choose ALL 8 slots without question.. If I want to load up on 8 damage spells.. I can.. if I want to load up on 8 heal and buffs spells I can..... EQN gives you NONE of that..
in EQN your buttons 1-4 are FIXED based on your weapon line up.. So if you are a Priest for example using a mace and shield.. your 1-4 buttons are DPS buttons that will NEVER change, unless you change weapons line up and class.. And depending on your class, your buttons 5-8 have limited flexibility.. Again assuming Priest button 5 is a "movement" skill.. YOU can NOT just swap that out for any skill you want.. You can only swap it for a different movement skill.. Same result, just dressed differently.. This multi classing isn't as flexible as many believe it will be..
So GW2 did it wrong in my opinion. You can have at least half the functions of EQ with only 4 assignable buttons after you get a bunch of support skills. If you get for instance regen, thorn coat, sow, skin like. Those were all buffs in EQ. IF they last similar time then you can switch your skills out in between battles to make this mechanic work. Then you may have stuff like root and nuke on first 2 weapon slots and snare and dot on another 2 weapon slots. You can switch weapons for a heal and an aditional or aoe nuke perhaps. From there you still have 2 more buttons of the 8 to use extra skills from your chosen class or another class you picked up.
If it works anything like this it will be good. They could also do something similar to the f-keys that guildwars 2 did but I am not as big of a fan of how that all worked. It did work but I think my system of longer lasting buffs would be better overall.
I know it is boring because games with few abilities where stuff gets too simple is boring, you get tired of it fast... It's like playing a moba, having 4 abilities or more on some characters and then a few items for abilities as well, you get tired of it damn fast imo as it is really easy to master. Having many skills with complicated combos and such is way more interesting and makes you have a choice on how to react in PVP for example not just same old combo over and over which it actually turns into with too few skills. It is boring.
Yes but according to most here the underlined is not working in that game but I know what you mean my guardian uses a two handed sword for the same reason and I switch to a scepter and focus for champs and ranged. I also have an engineer that I run pistol and shield but for close up I use my tool kit to go close combat it works really well in PvP cause no one uses it there and most players don't expect to pop in and fight face to face as one.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
Eight skills at a time. Not only eight skills ever.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Something worth considering is that in a MOBA you have multiple characters you can choose from which eliminates the "only 4 skills gets boring" issue. In EQN, supposedly you can change certain things on the fly, which affords you a wider range of choices in an even more immediate fashion than a MOBA does.
When looking at any individual mechanic of the game, try to take into account the various surrounding features that we've heard about so far. Each piece starts to make more sense when you look at it in the grander scheme of things.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So having 8 skill button is bad to compare 1-3 button macro that chain skills while u watch tv?:p (rift) ;D
Just good there is limit for skills, i want watch game play rather then my hotbars all time.
It all sounds good until you blind fold yourself and look at raw numbers NOT dressed up.. Let me give you and example I posted earlier in another thread.. You are playing a Wizzard carrying a mace and orb.. Your primary attack button is #1 and it does a lightning bolt that hits for 100 points of damage.. The next day you unlock and discover the Sorcerer class.. SWEEEET.. However requires you to use a pair of daggers.. Your primary attack button is #1 and it's a fireball that does 100 points of damage.... NOW, let me ask you...... Is that truly TWO different classes, or just one that dressed differently?
Back in the day things like did matter because of resistance, but in today's mmo.. EVERYTHING hits.. I can use fire weapons on fire mobs..... go figure.. LOL
Please remember everyone that mmorpg developers aren't designing skills the same as they used to. Skills nowadays have more layers of depth to them. More nuanced effects that give just one skill different advantages when used in different situations.
I used to play EQ2. This is an example of god awful skills design.
Vacuum Field II
That is an inefficient use of a hotbar space. It is hotbar filler. It is skill bloat.
First I want to see how combat plays out in the beta tests, then I will decide whether this is a good or bad idea.
In fact, I wouldn't mind it if they tried a different style, something that was a little closer to what Neverwinter has (left and right click your main attacks, q, e, and r are you main skills, and 1 and 2 are your super skills), but without copying it. Or maybe they could go the PSO2 route with main attacks being mapped to your left and right mouse buttons and holding shift while using those buttons use different skills.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I don't mind the 8 skill bar. I used around that in combat most times. In some cases I might grab something else and it was nice to have, but it doesn't kill me to be limited to 8.
What I don't really like about this setup is the selection limitations. I think 4 skills to the weapon are too many, or rather more pointedly I'd rather have more selectable skills. 2 and 6 or 3 and 5 would be better. Then on top of that they really put a clamp on what skills you get.
1 skill is, and I think it always is, dedicated to movement. That leaves 3 lousy skills that you have to choose from for fighting. I suppose you could say that the weapon you choose is a choice and I agree that is a bit better, but they come in a package that we don't know how selectable the package is.
I'm not really counter to the whole thing though. I'll give it a try no matter the game has too many features that interest me to not give it a try.
Asdar
QFT. In swtor and Wow I got tired of having 20-30 abilites and macros that I had to juggle. I actually loved GW2 skill system.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
So what MLG championships have you won lately?
/facepalm
Oh, hello to you too douchebag, I don't really enjoy MOBA games, I play them occasionally with my friends because they have some interest in them but I do produce items through the workshop for it. On the other hand I did play Tribes ascend on high level and used to lead a clan of 400-500 members something in Lineage 2. A game where you have 36 skills to use at least in gfinal if you play something other than archer.
Here is an example of good skill design.
Temporal Curtain
Once you activate it the icon changes.
Into the Void
Temporal Curtain, before detonated, is also a 'Light Field'.
Light Field Combos
Shoot a projectile through it. Leap through it. Use it as a group travel movement buff, or as a group mob pull, or as an escape move. Use it in any combination of ways depending on what you like and when you think it's appropriate. And it's only 1 hotbar slot.
Hey guess what? This may not be the game for you then. There are plenty of MMOs that offer what you want, god forbid one be different.
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Actually I plan on testing this because I hope it will provide something 'different' as in voxel world but the skill system is horrible, it is just another version of GW2s system which got really dull. boring and easy after a while.
And no there are not a lot of other games out there for me, so far just 2, EVE Online and L2. EVE is a bit dull due to just having a few modules on a ship but makes up for it by being harder to master in other regards. Thing is both games are 10 years old and I'd like to play something modern that can keep me entertained, seems that is just a dream for us that enjoys good gameplay and PVP though.