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No Vertical Progression...
zegeroth
Member Posts: 22
At first I was amazed by the features of this game and then "No Vertival Progression" sat in. The concept of growing is core to RPG. It dates back through everything sucessful to D&D. Vertical Progression is the driving force of the genre, which leads to social aspects, adventure, and longevity.
I predict the game to die quickly after an initial awe. There will be no driving force.
Comments
Its not Vertical levels but instead its Horizontal levels via Tiers. No matter what they call it, its still levels just not in the traditional sense.
If you think about it, both EQ games already have Horizontal "tiers" in that you have to level up to get the next tier of spells, take the Wizard's Ball of Fire spell from EQ2.
Ball of Fire tier 1 you get at level 23
Ball of Fire tier 2 you get at level 37
Ball of Fire tier 3 you get at level 51
Ball of Fire tier 4 you get at level 65
Ball of Fire tier 5 you get at level 77
Ball of Fire tier 6 you get at level 87
So instead of making you gain several levels to get tier 1 Ball of Fire, you have to "tier up" to get it.
I suspect it will take a while to get from one tier to the next... kinda like gaining 10 to 15 levels worth of time....
I suspect it will not take any substantial time to progress. Seems pretty pointless for a game that wants to pull in a casual type of gamer to require too much time to progress. That is the trend these days and I imagine they won't be so "innovative" as to ask anyone to put in much time or effort.
There is no end game. Horizontal progession is like learning to crawl, laugh, and talk. I want to learn to walk and then run and then win the olympics. They are trying to fundamentally change this growth such content never becomes too easy, new players are never abandoned, and so on. It will not work, people will quit.
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/everquest-next-interview-dave-georgeson/
I feel like there is potential for a horizontal leveling system if itemization really does scale on a massive scale. Being able to upgrade your abilities through your equipment will become the new form of leveling. Consider how the power of players increased so much between level 60 during kunark, and level 60 at the end of Velious (for those oldschool EQ players). Things that took 50 people in kunark could be killed with only 2 or 3 groups after Velious. Items matter.
I still don't understand the point of no raiding. This sounds like they tried to one-up WoW and instead of dumbing down raids and making them accessible to every casual 10 year old on the planet who can queue up into a 10 man instance, they just opted out altogether so as to not "alienate" players who can't coordinate their efforts together to accomplish hard raid-oriented objectives.
What about alienating adults who like a challenge? What about alienating guild leaders and members who enjoy the exclusivity of being in a guild where players work well together to overcome bigger obstacles? What about exclusivity?
Every year I'm more convinced that the damage WoW did to the genre is irreversible. The MMO where skill and coordinated player efforts are necessary is apparently dead for good.
Just look at the
10 good reasons why MMOs do not need vertical progression
Just because there are no levels doesn't mean that there is no vertical progression. Plus I want to bring up some huge points in the pro check list for no levels:
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I'm totally ok without vertical progression, but I'm hoping for some progression, vertical or other. Right now it sounds like it's a gear grind from the start and that's your progression.
I wish they had explained this in some more detail. (like a billion other details)
I don't get XP for killing mobs, so how exactly do I get all my tier 1 gear so I can then get tier 2 gear and so on. I sure hope it's not fastest looter wins. I don't mind the idea of exploring the world, that sounds great, but without some idea of how to move forward intentionally and not by 'crashing,' through the floor I'm going to feel like I'm just running in circles. (like GW2 combat)
Yes there's 40 horizontal classes out there, but I might only need one or two. The max you can use at one time is 5, 1 for your weapon class, and four selectable skills. So to play what you want you only have to get 5 classes and then gear grind each up to the highest tier.
Still it is free and they do have a ton of interesting things, so I'll give it a go.
Asdar
Odd i played SWG a lot and it had vertical character progression driven by exp ie levels. They were Vertical not horizontial this is the topic being disscussed not if their is an arbitrary term used called levels.
OP is right mmorpgs are made by their effective use of Vertical content .. not the other way around.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Really what level were you in SWG?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/SoE claims they are making a virtual world and not an mmorpg. They basically said they are tearing down the typical mmo model and making something new. The first thing in the reveal at SoE event Dave talked about was changing the core gameplay. You and most others here are just so used to the same level system almost every mmo had in the past decade that you believe nothing else could work. I can understand why the devs of games like The Division, Destiny, and ESO arent calling their games an mmorpg. Because then mmo players(drones) are going to be calling them out for having features thats different from the typical mmo and raging and saying thats not how an mmorpg is or thats not how mmorpgs play like wtf!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVIIIZ6ETtY
Hmm people want to be the best in their class
EQN is making people mix and match skills from different classes for that "best class"
but...this will make people who choose one "pure" vertical path will suck badly
another thing would be a starting class wielding sword at first will have better magic powers
when he unlocks all other classes and vice-versa
Certain items better than others? That's vertical progression. Hard to get abilities that are situationally better? That is vertical progression. In short, grinding things that improve your character's overall ability to take on challenges int he game is vertical progression.
I really think when they say no vertical progression they are exaggerating
No there is "some" vertical progression that is called Tiers. You can tier up to it seems about tier 5 on each class. Like leveling but it doesn't appear to be that much progression vertically (power wise). You also level up your abilities through spending points on them (probably similar to AA tree points), again not much vertical progression but still vertical progression.
The horizontal progression is the acquiring of the other classes so you can mix and match their abilities. This whole thing is very much the same as the mechanism in the Secret World.
because they were also both sandbox type of games. And that is what EQN is aiming to be.
If you want a theme park game take your pick there's dozens of them. A sandbox works because it allows players to choose there own direction. there is sure to be plenty of things to progress in and become better in. So I am sure if showing off what your able to obtain or create is your goal ( as is the goal of if most theme park games) you should still be able to do that.
In UO there were lots of ways to shine and stand out. Famous trades people, castle owners, pvper's, rare hunters. Just to name a few
I like how someone else stated it: You are maximum level, with AA (Alternate Advancement) progression. You will gain skill points as you play, and you place these skill points into the class you want to skill up. They have already stated that you do not get the skill points assigned automatically to the class you are playing, you can dump them on any class you want to advance in.
So this is definitely a game of horizontal advancement. No need for artificially increasing your hp, mp, or stats based on some amount of kills you have done.
This also allows for your friends to come and join you in the game many years after the game has come out, without fear of them not being able to join you, or you not benefitting from joining them.
A tier is not the same as a level though Nonfoodle. Levels are based on experience you gain as you complete quests and kill monsters. Tiers are based on how many skill points you have placed into a particular class.
So your Warrior Tier 1 skills could each require you to place 10 points into each skill before you can open up any Tier 2 skill, and so on for tier 3.
While SOLOING in an area designed around players with Tier 4 characters could be very deadly, you CAN join your tier 4 friends to quest and complete tasks in that area with them, since there is no entry cap for said areas. Unlike level based games, where you have absolutely no chance if you go to a level 80 area at level 1.
Ya it looks the same to me. I kill stuff I get exp I go in levels I become more powerful I can kill harder mobs. EQN, I skill stuff I gain skill points and I become more powerful I can kill harder mobs. Saying there is no vertical progression is where the stretch is. There is its just not as big as in other games.
The examples I remember them giving about this subject were that Lavastorm for instance may be a tier 3 zone to start off with. In terms of tiering up, there may have been more than one example but the one I recall is getting a full set of said tier armor for your class would tier you up; There'd be goals and such for tiering up (I'm unsure if the goals are announced or they just happen).
An additional thing they touched upon were attributes being very important and that you could say gain 1 strength through lots of work which could enable you to jump higher. I personally think tiers and being able to modify attributes is a form of vertical progression even though they want to sound chic.
When they said you have to have armor for tier 3 zones, what I gathered was that you would have to adventure in zones geared from people with Tier 2 skills, with tier 1 armor. And with the armor you get from tier 2 zones, you can go into tier 3, as long as your skills were up to par as well.
This is not like level progression, because in level progression, it doesn't matter if you are wearing level 1 gear, you can still take on things that are your same level. You can't raid or do heroic content, but you could still adventure there. Yet a level 1 character, no matter how well he was twinked, can't do level 80 content if he is only level 1... heck, even level 50 some-games. and if you go back to level 1 zones, there is nothing there for you, and you can't progress.
Yet, under this new system, you can have your friend tag along to a tier 3 zone, and still get rewarded with skill points, progression and possibly armor, right from the first day he starts playing. And if you want to do some quests in his tier 1 zone, you will not be penalized, like some other games do, and instead, you will still gain skillpoints and such.
IMO, horizontal is a very smart way of doing progression.
Console FPS.......Yeah.....COD anyone?
I play RPG, for the character development.
Tiers are not just gear, its also tied into your skills outside the bonuses of the items you wear.
screw the levels i want my skill and stat based progression
start with snails finish with the demon king
start with breaking rocks finish with breaking a mountain
edit* start with a fireball finish with a FireBlast
get my point?
balance? whats that? its all about player skill when there is that, there is no need for "balance"
horizontal means that you mingle on the same strenght level through the whole experience, sure you might get skills and gear that are visualy different but your initial strenght remains the same you will never reach a higher plateau of your strenght
why no hybrid of horizontal and vertical?