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Storybricks bombshell
Daaken
Member Posts: 158
What we are trying to show is that once you remove the boundaries of a scripted AI having a trinity or not becomes a minor issue.
Wow, who da thunk it! This is why people shouldn't be so upset over the removal of the trinity. As I said in other posts, it is common sense to know the archaic Trinity system breaks down in the face of Smart A.I. So you can either quit complaining and change your mindset, quit comparing it to a game like GW2, or continue living in the MMO middle ages with your archaic game design.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Comments
But...But... that means people actually have to pay attention to what's going on? Instead of you know, spamming a few macros that they got from a site and following along a fairly simple scripted set of events without much challenge. I mean where's the fun in actually playing a game when you could just have loot pinatas?
Never heard of marketing speak before, eh? Gee, I can't imagine why Storybricks would be trying to convince people that their AI will revolutionize the genre..
lol.
[mod edit]
The Quadrinity (Tank/Healer/DPS/Support-Crowd-Control) is >ONLY< exemplified & its need MULTIPLIED in a realm with high NPC AI demands & potential.
If NPCs know to flee & regroup, drop traps, suicide kamikaze, or throw magical grenades if out-numbered, tanks could be given lasso or handcuff abilities -- linked roots, & 1 minute reuse charge combat arts, if you will.
The value of crowd control, snares, roots, mesmerizing, charming, could only be multiplied by >TWENTY< in a AI-heavy realm, with a proper, concrete class system & moderate-to-high spell/combat art ability counts.
Would be ideal, & is a large part of suggestions I've lobbied for for the past 3+ years. n_n
See the text in red.
What you are describing is exactly what they are doing. They are letting the players respond to a situation, making mob fighting to sound a bit more like PVP. Out smart vs. out DPS. That will require a lot more focus on roles for monsters and bosses that require them. Not just stand in one place, and spam threat keys as a tank. Now it becomes 'be active, look for ways to absorb damage' as a tank ... much more fun.
All I can say is people are putting a hell of alot of faith in a AI they havn't seen a thing of, storybricks itself is a company that is completly unproven atm.
Don't get me wrong, I hope the AI will be as awesome as they claim, but I try to be a realist atleast some of the time.
And even if the AI is as advanced as they claim, have anyone here played pvp in mmos lately? even when fighting against actual human players these roles are still important, without pvp becomes a zerg aswell.
And they will remain important until we see a mmorpg that has combat as advanced as mount and blade in which case we will really just see new roles such as: Infantry-Archer-Cavlary.
In my opinions roles are a must in a Mmorpg, it dosnt have to be the original trinity, but if the need for certain roles just isnt there, you will end up with a zerg mentality.
I really hope it works out, and dosnt become a boring zerg like gw2, but I don't see anyway around the inevitable chessboard with only pawns problem.
WUUUUUUUUT? Roles are important in PvP? No such thing as a tank in PvP, and in general every player in PvP multi-task and take on different roles during the course of a fight. Poor analogy on your part because al lit does is prove that you can remove Trinity in the face of smart AI yet still retain semblance of role structure.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
That's part of the problem. There should be.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't sweat the narrow thinkers. I'm not saying that SOE will get it right, but as soon as someone does create smart AI, the old, tired, outdated, and lazy trinity is GONE. I mean, the most threatening person in a fight is some slow, low DPS outputting, heavily armored idiot hurling insults? It's the dumbest, most idiotic, lazy mechanic to still be used in this day and age. It worked a decade ago, but this isn't EQ and its about time something new came along.
I couldn't agree with you more... Unfortunately, most people do not handle change well...
These forums are a perfect example of this...
lol so true
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
And how are you going to force other players to attack the heavily armored tank in full plate with a shield when there's a squishy Wizard 10 meters behind him? There's a reason why Tanks, and to a lesser degree Healers to not work in a PvP environment, because smart tactics will always outdo rigid archetypes.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Huh? Uhmm... yeah, roles and strategy are extremely important in PvP. That is if you want to be any good at it. Not sure what games you are playing. And there may not be tanks per say, but there sure the heck are classes spec'd into damage absorption.
Personally, I could care less about the trinity as long as whatever replaces it is cohesive and fun. Problem I have is when any class setup can beat any encounter. That sounds a lot like a bunch of solo players playing along side each other. Which is neither cohesive or fun.
This discussion keeps making me think of WoW arena. Tanks are definitely a viable role and have a lot of use, just the way that they tank is very different. Abilities like spell reflect, stun, intervene, etc. show how a "tank" can be very viable in a dynamic fight that doesn't utilize threat and the oh-so-stupid taunt. If we try to think of combat in EQN as more like PVP and less like traditional PVE, the things the devs have been saying about the trinity makes much more sense. They never claimed to remove all roles, they just said the traditional required "trinity" was gone.
Let's take WoW arena 3v3 for example, 3 mages was a popular group comp for a while because it had a strategy that worked. There was no "trinity" in this group comp but it worked. That's not to say that a healer or a tank is not a useful role, but the trinity is not necessary to succeed as long as you have a strategy that can work.
Problem with your analogy is in WoW arena class setup meant everything. You could be the most skilled players but if you setup didn't jive, your team was gimped.
What SOE is trumpeting is NO class setup for any encounter, which just sounds like a free for all.
Time will tell.
Tanks can work in pvp if there are objectives like flags, also can work insanely good if there is collision detection, which I doubt there is, but would be stoked if there was
Funny...full defensive tanks were extremely useful and desirable in PvP in DAoC and Warhammer Online and even Aion and SW:TOR
No such thing as a tank in pvp? in quite a few mmo's tanks can soak damage for a targetted player, this is tanking, not to mention the tank role serves diffrent purposes in pvp for example carrying a flag, and even in pvp its possible to "take agroo" rush into a enemy group and start slowing and knocking people down, you can be damn sure a few of them will try take you down to get rid of those effects.
Obviously not as clearcut as in pve, but its still tanking.
And without the healer you have a scenario where the side that can push out the most dps in the most focused and shortest amount of time wins, prefferably AoE.
As for you taking on diffrent roles during the course of a fight, I can't say I consider dps a valid role, its something every class does in most mmo's they are also not a part of the original trinity (Tank-Healer-CC).
This said, I see I might not have been clear earlier, I don't actually mind losing the trinity, what worries me is that it seems like they are currently building the game without any role dependency, and when the content is balanced around the idea that any setup should be able to beat it, you end up with a very limited difficulty.
Which in turn is likely to turn it into another dps race like gw2.
Like I said before, I hope they see a way around the problem that I can't see, I just don't find it likely personally.
I will play eqn regardless, As a old eq1 player I owe it to myself to atleast give it a chance, and there are enough good features there to intrest me if nothing else atleast for a short time, however I would be lieing if I said the direction they are currently heading in when it comes to grouping dosnt worries me.
When have they said "no class setup"? The only thing I've heard them say is that having a certain class will not be a requirement for a successful group. I'm guessing (I could be wrong) that what matters is that the strategy of the comp works for the task at hand. If you look at EQ1, there were tons of group comps that did not use the "trinity" and worked. What WoW did was design encounters so rigidly that you had to overcome them in a very specific way, reinforcing the need for the trinity. My hope is that EQN goes back to the EQ1 model of "here are some monsters, figure out some way to beat them".
As for collision detection, I'm assuming they will it. If you can destroy a wall by swinging your sword at it, then I would hope a tank could block an attack by being in between the monster and his friend. It could make for some really exciting position-based gameplay.
My perspective was to call most group content "lemming gaming". Tho I guess sheep are a far more correct animal to use. Simply because its just about following people through a place and knowing what Mario Brothers button to push when.
Now that's a perspective its not me saying that people who enjoy that content really are sheep. It just never appealed to me.. so the idea of active combat and reacting to an enemy (kind of like pvp) is far more interesting.
/shrug
Yep Sony is making another solo player game like lotro did with open tapping. No grouping required and no actual thinking either.
Great way to build a community with all solo players who can kill everything and depend on nobody!
I don't quite get why everyone keeps thinking that you can just solo everything. Just because you can change classes doesn't mean you can be every class at once. With only 8 abilities total, you aren't going to be able to do everything no matter how many classes you own. They have been clear that you will also need gear to really optimize the abilities you use.
It's like saying paladins could solo every dungeon in WoW because they can attack, have armor, and can heal.
Trinity doesn't work in PvP?
That is only true if you play PvP like it was PvE.
Have you never outlasted an opponent because you were healed? Have you never held off
an opponent or multiple opponents for a period of time long enough for reinforcements to
arrive?
Ever CC an opponent & remove them as a factor in a fight?
I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree (within reason), as trinity obviously is played in a
modified manner when comparing PvP to PvE.