I'm just surprised to see how many adults worry about their games being "too cartoony". I thought only kids want everything to be edgy and realistic and grimdark and with naked people and so very adult. Because, of course, they're "not kids anymore".
Originally posted by Rockniss I am watching the pax videos of wildstar, I was pretty amped for it in the past. As I watched the video though, I just felt like meh, I've seen it before. It made me think though about how the pool of 5 plus year mmorpg vets sees a game and how a developer creates a game. I have determined that developers deem developing for the experienced crowd is to risky. I think thats why EqNext and Wildsfar are cartoonish.
I think it's more the mental age of some of the devs coming through. It's kind of like plain dull TV programming; is it written by idiots or for idiots? Both?
Mostly it's created by derivation; Westerns work, let's make dozens of them. Sitcoms work, let's flood all networks with a ton of them for several decades. Reality Shows work, people really want to watch stupidity competitions!
Oops, I missed the Cop Show decade in there.
Unfortunately, the Derivatives tend to miss the actual essence of what sold the Originals to the public.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I grew out of the novel idea of cartoon graphics long ago. I want realisitic graphics, I want the game to push the boundaries of what tech and pcs can do to jump to the true next gen of gaming, not being stuck in 2004 along with the rest of the antiquated cookie cutter MMOs out there. That being said I would choose graphics like this over any WoW or any of its spawned clones anyday.
While I do have a heavy preference to the prettiest, most realistic graphics out there, I do let things like cartoony or lower end graphics slide if the game is good enough. Another thing that helps cartoony or lower end graphics get on my good side is if the game world is just plain huge, feels alive and has plenty of things for players to do.
So, Wildstar is so far looking pretty good to me. But until I get my hands on it I can't say for sure.
I'm still more eagerly awaiting Kingdom Under Fire 2, Star Citizen and Cyberpunk 2077. Yeah I know those last two aren't exactly MMO's but Star Citizen is beautiful and can kind of be passed off as an MMO and Cyberpunk 2077 is supposedly going to have multiplayer and like previous CDPR games it'll be mod friendly. So who knows how many people will be able to play together at once? Maybe it'll be like Freelancer which my foggy memory of the game says it supported as many players as the server could handle.
Originally posted by Rockniss I am watching the pax videos of wildstar, I was pretty amped for it in the past. As I watched the video though, I just felt like meh, I've seen it before. It made me think though about how the pool of 5 plus year mmorpg vets sees a game and how a developer creates a game. I have determined that developers deem developing for the experienced crowd is to risky. I think thats why EqNext and Wildsfar are cartoonish.
I think it's more the mental age of some of the devs coming through. It's kind of like plain dull TV programming; is it written by idiots or for idiots? Both?
Mostly it's created by derivation; Westerns work, let's make dozens of them. Sitcoms work, let's flood all networks with a ton of them for several decades. Reality Shows work, people really want to watch stupidity competitions!
Oops, I missed the Cop Show decade in there.
Unfortunately, the Derivatives tend to miss the actual essence of what sold the Originals to the public.
It's common for people to forget the cop show decade, as it's collateral damage in one's self-preservatory efforts to mentally block out all memories of Cop Rock.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am not a big fan of cartoon visuals. The Tony the Tiger look of EQ-Next might be its' one weakness that allows other games with better graphics to out compete it. Now that their 4 holy grails plan is out of the bag nothing is stopping other studios from copying that model but doing it with better graphics.
Originally posted by Shadanwolf ...who wants a cartoon character to represent them.... that looks like it should be on the box of a kids sugar coated cereal ?
Not I.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I'm not a terribly big fan of cartoon graphics, but am even less a fan of the Asian style 12 foot long 450lb swords, shoulder guards that would decapitate anyone who has the gall to turn their head whilst wearing one, pastel particle effects, etc. that come with those cartoon graphics.
It IS completely possible to have cartoonish graphics while still having whichever type of atmosphere the creator wishes.
If you would like examples, Spawn, Sin City, hell even most of the Batman comics do a pretty damn good job of maintaining a serious vibe without resulting in childish Mickey Mouse simplicity.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Rockniss I am watching the pax videos of wildstar, I was pretty amped for it in the past. As I watched the video though, I just felt like meh, I've seen it before. It made me think though about how the pool of 5 plus year mmorpg vets sees a game and how a developer creates a game. I have determined that developers deem developing for the experienced crowd is to risky. I think thats why EqNext and Wildsfar are cartoonish.
I would like to know what your problem is with cartoons? I, for one, enjoy a good animated feature. And I would much rather see "The Incredibles" over "Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within" if I can use those two films as a comparison to what you are talking about.
Cartoony doesn't matter. Content and function matters.
I'm not a terribly big fan of cartoon graphics, but am even less a fan of the Asian style 12 foot long 450lb swords, shoulder guards that would decapitate anyone who has the gall to turn their head whilst wearing one, pastel particle effects, etc. that come with those cartoon graphics.
It IS completely possible to have cartoonish graphics while still having whichever type of atmosphere the creator wishes.
If you would like examples, Spawn, Sin City, hell even most of the Batman comics do a pretty damn good job of maintaining a serious vibe without resulting in childish Mickey Mouse simplicity.
Yeah, I do agree with this though. In fact, that entire first paragraph will make or break a lot of games for me and is exactly the reason why FFXIV hasn't gotten any of my money yet. I don't mind cartoony, but I hpe they don't go to that extent.
Here are 3 images. All Desert Scenes. From EQ Next, Runescape 3, and ArchlordX (supposedly? not even sure if their released or beta or what). All 3 of these are long standing expansive MMORPG with in depth content who have recently (or are recently) under going major revamps - Archlord arguably doesn't deserve to be up in this given how young it is, but their currently under revamp and going for similar approach to the others and if nothing else you can consider it the control for explemplifying a developing/developed trend - :
I don't see Where the cartoony is here. Or where bad graphics are creeping up other wise. While all 3 styles take a slightly different approach (EQ Next seems to have a highly seamless environment focus, Runescape 3 is going for true depth in 3D, and Archlord X is focusing on making even bright scenes look dark with grittyness)...But the graphical aproaches are all basically the same. textures that are truly sampled from concept art. real renders and not derivative of photorealistic snapshots blended with bad masking and cob'ing as we see in a lot of MMO's. All of these games appear to have several scales of resolutions swapped and rendered at different distances from objects (as it should be and all to often is not). And the organic and architectural models while fantastical all have a good degree of believability within the context.
Cartoony to me uses mostly primary colors and neon colors (kid-appeal color pallets) in a vary narrow range. There are smiles on flowers and every thing in the environment that could be termed as alive dancing rhythymically and in sync. Not only do organic objects in cartoony games seem too rounded and often almost shiny. but architectural objects are often given unnecessarry and unbelievable curvature.
Their not skyrim...but they are a far cry from cartoonish...And another thing 'Experience MMORPG'ers' are more used to 2d iso view and pixels then we are to this new fangeled 3d thing.
Their not skyrim...but they are a far cry from cartoonish...And another thing 'Experience MMORPG'ers' are more used to 2d iso view and pixels then we are to this new fangeled 3d thing.
Damn it, some of us are even "used to" text!
But it does seem odd how many people have pretty much exhausted the learning possibilities of computer RPG games, in general, but refuse to give up waiting for a miracle.
But; here I am, killing another morning on my favorite cesspool of negativity and despair. Tonight I'll play my favorite kinda-like-an-rpg modern evolution, as the genre continues to evolve (shocked amazement) in the direction of greatest profitability instead of 'back to the past'.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Here are 3 images. All Desert Scenes. From EQ Next, Runescape 3, and ArchlordX (supposedly? not even sure if their released or beta or what). All 3 of these are long standing expansive MMORPG with in depth content who have recently (or are recently) under going major revamps - Archlord arguably doesn't deserve to be up in this given how young it is, but their currently under revamp and going for similar approach to the others and if nothing else you can consider it the control for explemplifying a developing/developed trend - :
I don't see Where the cartoony is here. Or where bad graphics are creeping up other wise. While all 3 styles take a slightly different approach (EQ Next seems to have a highly seamless environment focus, Runescape 3 is going for true depth in 3D, and Archlord X is focusing on making even bright scenes look dark with grittyness)...But the graphical aproaches are all basically the same. textures that are truly sampled from concept art. real renders and not derivative of photorealistic snapshots blended with bad masking and cob'ing as we see in a lot of MMO's. All of these games appear to have several scales of resolutions swapped and rendered at different distances from objects (as it should be and all to often is not). And the organic and architectural models while fantastical all have a good degree of believability within the context.
Cartoony to me uses mostly primary colors and neon colors (kid-appeal color pallets) in a vary narrow range. There are smiles on flowers and every thing in the environment that could be termed as alive dancing rhythymically and in sync. Not only do organic objects in cartoony games seem too rounded and often almost shiny. but architectural objects are often given unnecessarry and unbelievable curvature.
Their not skyrim...but they are a far cry from cartoonish...And another thing 'Experience MMORPG'ers' are more used to 2d iso view and pixels then we are to this new fangeled 3d thing.
The flak that SOE has gotten over the EQ Next graphics are in regard to the character models, not the world itself, which was made from the same engine (unaltered in the slightest as far as I know) which was used to make Planetside 2.
Now to say that the character models aren't cartoonish are a bit disingenuous to say the least
Here's how it compares to WoW, a well known game which uses a simplistic (and yes, cartoonish) art style.....
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Originally posted by Rockniss I am watching the pax videos of wildstar, I was pretty amped for it in the past. As I watched the video though, I just felt like meh, I've seen it before. It made me think though about how the pool of 5 plus year mmorpg vets sees a game and how a developer creates a game. I have determined that developers deem developing for the experienced crowd is to risky. I think thats why EqNext and Wildsfar are cartoonish.
I would like to know what your problem is with cartoons? I, for one, enjoy a good animated feature. And I would much rather see "The Incredibles" over "Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within" if I can use those two films as a comparison to what you are talking about.
Cartoony doesn't matter. Content and function matters.
Yeah .. and it is about the art direction. Personally i enjoy good cartoony art a lot more than realistic but dull graphics.
I have no problem with either graphic style as long as they are done well. I personally don't see them as aimed at a particular age bracket but I can see why people would think cartoony is aimed at a younger audience. I choose a game based on the game itself, I still want it to be graphically pleasing but the style is less important to me.
Pretty much every texture has goto be 256x256 and any given one probably only uses 3-4 colors. There is super saturation verging on technicolor, Lighting makes up for lack of detail. And to speak of characters...Exaggerated head sizes and extremely diminished noses. That are only equal in their disproportion to the blown up eyes. And a ton of fake lighting baked into the texture, with very bright local sources to cover it....
Here is a picture of a real lion...
And some real armor...
And here is a picture of hulk hogan (or whatever his name is now)
Mentally combine the 3...They did a bad job; or pretty damn close?
Originally posted by Rockniss I am watching the pax videos of wildstar, I was pretty amped for it in the past. As I watched the video though, I just felt like meh, I've seen it before. It made me think though about how the pool of 5 plus year mmorpg vets sees a game and how a developer creates a game. I have determined that developers deem developing for the experienced crowd is to risky. I think thats why EqNext and Wildsfar are cartoonish.
I have raided in EQ2 3-4 days a week for 7+ years and subbed to the game since launch. Not sure if that qualifies as "experienced" or not but I can give my 2 cents for what what its worth (about as much as 2 pennies sitting in the gutter).
Cartoon graphics don't really both me that much as I look more at the substance of the game. You can play the best graphics games around but if they are missing systems that appeal to me than they are just flashy show pieces. Those are fine for 30-40 days but for years?
The most important thing about games like Wildstar and EQN won't be the graphic styles. For raiders at least it will be about how challenging group/raid content is and how deep the progress of raiding goes. If it takes a month for any random group to gear out your raid force in top end gear like SWTOR did than no one is going to keep raiding and will leave the game. If on the other hand you have a progression system that starts fairly simple and ramps up to requiring precise teamwork you can have a environment where people will play your game for years. Some expansions of EQ2 have done this better than others.
I don't know about EQN as it seems like SOE is abandoning raiders in EQN for smaller content but WIldstar seems to be aimed squarely at that market. I guess we will see if most of my fellow raiders can look past the cartoony graphics or not and give the games core at least a chance. Given how popular raiding has been in WoW and how disenfranchised the raiding community is right now with the MMO market as a whole I think they have at least a good shot if they can pull off the details.
Mentally combine the 3...They did a bad job; or pretty damn close?
I would say they did a good job given the simplistic and cartoonish art style.
Like I said previously, cartoonish does not necessarily mean bad,simple,childish,etc. I can think of any number of comics out there that do a pretty damn fine job of conveying whichever mood the creator wills, but to say that Sir LionKing is not created in a simplistic WoW-esque art style is an outright lie.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Comments
Mostly it's created by derivation; Westerns work, let's make dozens of them. Sitcoms work, let's flood all networks with a ton of them for several decades. Reality Shows work, people really want to watch stupidity competitions!
Oops, I missed the Cop Show decade in there.
Unfortunately, the Derivatives tend to miss the actual essence of what sold the Originals to the public.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I grew out of the novel idea of cartoon graphics long ago. I want realisitic graphics, I want the game to push the boundaries of what tech and pcs can do to jump to the true next gen of gaming, not being stuck in 2004 along with the rest of the antiquated cookie cutter MMOs out there. That being said I would choose graphics like this over any WoW or any of its spawned clones anyday.
While I do have a heavy preference to the prettiest, most realistic graphics out there, I do let things like cartoony or lower end graphics slide if the game is good enough. Another thing that helps cartoony or lower end graphics get on my good side is if the game world is just plain huge, feels alive and has plenty of things for players to do.
So, Wildstar is so far looking pretty good to me. But until I get my hands on it I can't say for sure.
I'm still more eagerly awaiting Kingdom Under Fire 2, Star Citizen and Cyberpunk 2077. Yeah I know those last two aren't exactly MMO's but Star Citizen is beautiful and can kind of be passed off as an MMO and Cyberpunk 2077 is supposedly going to have multiplayer and like previous CDPR games it'll be mod friendly. So who knows how many people will be able to play together at once? Maybe it'll be like Freelancer which my foggy memory of the game says it supported as many players as the server could handle.
Kingdom of Knights - Community Manager
It's common for people to forget the cop show decade, as it's collateral damage in one's self-preservatory efforts to mentally block out all memories of Cop Rock.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not I.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I'm not a terribly big fan of cartoon graphics, but am even less a fan of the Asian style 12 foot long 450lb swords, shoulder guards that would decapitate anyone who has the gall to turn their head whilst wearing one, pastel particle effects, etc. that come with those cartoon graphics.
It IS completely possible to have cartoonish graphics while still having whichever type of atmosphere the creator wishes.
If you would like examples, Spawn, Sin City, hell even most of the Batman comics do a pretty damn good job of maintaining a serious vibe without resulting in childish Mickey Mouse simplicity.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I feel similar to Grixxt.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I would like to know what your problem is with cartoons? I, for one, enjoy a good animated feature. And I would much rather see "The Incredibles" over "Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within" if I can use those two films as a comparison to what you are talking about.
Cartoony doesn't matter. Content and function matters.
Yeah, I do agree with this though. In fact, that entire first paragraph will make or break a lot of games for me and is exactly the reason why FFXIV hasn't gotten any of my money yet. I don't mind cartoony, but I hpe they don't go to that extent.
Here are 3 images. All Desert Scenes. From EQ Next, Runescape 3, and ArchlordX (supposedly? not even sure if their released or beta or what). All 3 of these are long standing expansive MMORPG with in depth content who have recently (or are recently) under going major revamps - Archlord arguably doesn't deserve to be up in this given how young it is, but their currently under revamp and going for similar approach to the others and if nothing else you can consider it the control for explemplifying a developing/developed trend - :
I don't see Where the cartoony is here. Or where bad graphics are creeping up other wise. While all 3 styles take a slightly different approach (EQ Next seems to have a highly seamless environment focus, Runescape 3 is going for true depth in 3D, and Archlord X is focusing on making even bright scenes look dark with grittyness)...But the graphical aproaches are all basically the same. textures that are truly sampled from concept art. real renders and not derivative of photorealistic snapshots blended with bad masking and cob'ing as we see in a lot of MMO's. All of these games appear to have several scales of resolutions swapped and rendered at different distances from objects (as it should be and all to often is not). And the organic and architectural models while fantastical all have a good degree of believability within the context.
Cartoony to me uses mostly primary colors and neon colors (kid-appeal color pallets) in a vary narrow range. There are smiles on flowers and every thing in the environment that could be termed as alive dancing rhythymically and in sync. Not only do organic objects in cartoony games seem too rounded and often almost shiny. but architectural objects are often given unnecessarry and unbelievable curvature.
Their not skyrim...but they are a far cry from cartoonish...And another thing 'Experience MMORPG'ers' are more used to 2d iso view and pixels then we are to this new fangeled 3d thing.
Damn it, some of us are even "used to" text!
But it does seem odd how many people have pretty much exhausted the learning possibilities of computer RPG games, in general, but refuse to give up waiting for a miracle.
But; here I am, killing another morning on my favorite cesspool of negativity and despair. Tonight I'll play my favorite kinda-like-an-rpg modern evolution, as the genre continues to evolve (shocked amazement) in the direction of greatest profitability instead of 'back to the past'.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The flak that SOE has gotten over the EQ Next graphics are in regard to the character models, not the world itself, which was made from the same engine (unaltered in the slightest as far as I know) which was used to make Planetside 2.
Now to say that the character models aren't cartoonish are a bit disingenuous to say the least
Here's how it compares to WoW, a well known game which uses a simplistic (and yes, cartoonish) art style.....
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Yeah .. and it is about the art direction. Personally i enjoy good cartoony art a lot more than realistic but dull graphics.
@IceWhite, Careful your dating yourself.
@Grixxitt, I just don't see it
Look at flyff
Or eternal saga
Pretty much every texture has goto be 256x256 and any given one probably only uses 3-4 colors. There is super saturation verging on technicolor, Lighting makes up for lack of detail. And to speak of characters...Exaggerated head sizes and extremely diminished noses. That are only equal in their disproportion to the blown up eyes. And a ton of fake lighting baked into the texture, with very bright local sources to cover it....
Here is a picture of a real lion...
And some real armor...
And here is a picture of hulk hogan (or whatever his name is now)
Mentally combine the 3...They did a bad job; or pretty damn close?
I have raided in EQ2 3-4 days a week for 7+ years and subbed to the game since launch. Not sure if that qualifies as "experienced" or not but I can give my 2 cents for what what its worth (about as much as 2 pennies sitting in the gutter).
Cartoon graphics don't really both me that much as I look more at the substance of the game. You can play the best graphics games around but if they are missing systems that appeal to me than they are just flashy show pieces. Those are fine for 30-40 days but for years?
The most important thing about games like Wildstar and EQN won't be the graphic styles. For raiders at least it will be about how challenging group/raid content is and how deep the progress of raiding goes. If it takes a month for any random group to gear out your raid force in top end gear like SWTOR did than no one is going to keep raiding and will leave the game. If on the other hand you have a progression system that starts fairly simple and ramps up to requiring precise teamwork you can have a environment where people will play your game for years. Some expansions of EQ2 have done this better than others.
I don't know about EQN as it seems like SOE is abandoning raiders in EQN for smaller content but WIldstar seems to be aimed squarely at that market. I guess we will see if most of my fellow raiders can look past the cartoony graphics or not and give the games core at least a chance. Given how popular raiding has been in WoW and how disenfranchised the raiding community is right now with the MMO market as a whole I think they have at least a good shot if they can pull off the details.
I would say they did a good job given the simplistic and cartoonish art style.
Like I said previously, cartoonish does not necessarily mean bad,simple,childish,etc. I can think of any number of comics out there that do a pretty damn fine job of conveying whichever mood the creator wills, but to say that Sir LionKing is not created in a simplistic WoW-esque art style is an outright lie.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community