So posting around the FFXIV forum on this site, and it reminded me of an interesting word that I just don't quite understand. What exactly is grind? I feel like this can mean different things to different people.
Ultimately I understand its used for something that "forces people to waste their time". Something that people don't want to do but they have to do it for whatever incentive that was provided beyond it. I often see this used for killing monsters over and over again and I feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere. I mean killing monsters have been the core of many MMO's gameplay for so long, how can a fundamental part of an MMO be also considered a "grind"? Is this another term that people just haphazardly throw around to knock around particular MMO's or the whole genre in general?
What constitutes a GRIND in an MMO to you? And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
I would categorize "forces people to waste their time" rather as a Time Sink Mechanism.
In and of itself that is not grind.
As a game may not have for instance Fast Travel and you have to walk everuwhere (Lineage II first itteration for example)...well you cannot say...the game is grindy because I have to walk everywhere wasting my time... it is a Time sink.
Grinding is as I see it, on purpose implemented Slow progression of everything that can progress in game. be it your character's experience, be it Crafting/gathering experience or materials, be it fopr Gear or Housing, ship building etc etc...
And there is a reason for it too. Since MMORPG's move away from the Sandbox Design and Open Gameplay and down the Themepark Design with Guided Gameplay, there needed to be a way to gauge the progression of the players to insure that a player for instance will play the game for at least 6 month before they go through the content and may decide to cancel their subscription.
It is all about making the MMORPG a viable profit making Business and game after game Themepark after tHemepark Devs have played with which strings to pull or push to see which Approach has the better Return and Generation of Profit...
if you ask me it is ridiculous...but it is what this Industry has come down to...making games for Investors..instead of making games for players and then getting rewarded..they want instead to insure ROI and Profit margins etc etc...
The have pretty much managed to get the initial Investment back, but still many MMO's are not generating the desired profits...and they simply don;t get it...they keep tryingt he same ol things...which players abandon a month or two down the line.
It has come to being about how to manipulate players to stay and pay longer...rather than how can we offer a Fun experience to players which they will enjoy and stay longer.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Originally posted by Jairoe03 Do companies just knowingly place grind in their games knowing that people generally don't like it and usually associated with negative game experiences?
Here's an interesting discussion on the matter, as the comments show an interesting division in perception. Those familiar with the word outside of MMOs appear to go by the dictionary definition of repetitive, usually uninteresting, work. Those who first heard of it in their MMOs seem to view it differently.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Repeating something in a game that has an objective unrelated to what you are doing.
EVE Online, it's ISK grind. Hundreds of PvE related content levels, all of them with the soul purpose of grinding ISK. Other games it might be exper grind. Material grind for crafting. You min/max the content according to what it is you are trying to accomplish and ignore what it is you are doing.
So posting around the FFXIV forum on this site, and it reminded me of an interesting word that I just don't quite understand. What exactly is grind? I feel like this can mean different things to different people.
Ultimately I understand its used for something that "forces people to waste their time". Something that people don't want to do but they have to do it for whatever incentive that was provided beyond it. I often see this used for killing monsters over and over again and I feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere. I mean killing monsters have been the core of many MMO's gameplay for so long, how can a fundamental part of an MMO be also considered a "grind"? Is this another term that people just haphazardly throw around to knock around particular MMO's or the whole genre in general?
What constitutes a GRIND in an MMO to you? And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
Well it absolutely means different things to different people. Most words mean slightly different things to different people based on lifetimes of different context.
As for myself, I love the topic of "the grind." I've spent considerable time talking about it here and elsewhere. For the purpose of this thread, I'll just say that I consistently define "grindy" as the point at which a particular bit of gameplay becomes so monotonous and repetitive that it no longer feels fun in its own right. It is diametrically opposed to gameplay fun. That is, players participating in something they deem to be grindy do not enjoy the moment by moment bits of gameplay that comprise the grind.
The distinction between gameplay fun and other kinds of fun is necessary because grindiness can actually increase another kind of MMO fun,progression fun. The longer it takes to reach a goal, the more arduous the journey (and yes, the more boring the journey), the more satisfying it can feel when the goal is finally attained.
In my opinion, it is paramount that MMOs strike a balance between gameplay fun and progression fun -- and, by proxy, grindiness. I think it's entirely possible to make certain lofty goals take a really long time to reach, while simultaneously keeping every step of the journey varied (to prevent monotony) and fun (because honestly, nobody wants to not have fun when they're playing).
Lineage 2, took my 1 week of hard core grinding to get from lvl 50 to 51.. that was at about 10-14 hrs a day. That was just killing mobs over and over to get the max xp possible. THAT is a grind to me =P
And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
When I find it fun, it's not a grind. Obviously, for me at least, the presence of a grind is completely subjective.
Almost. I think you need the "with no alternatives" to really make the frustration level stick.
The MUDs or Korean Grinders with a single path to advancing your character; slaying (scientific notation required) creatures. Period. No alternatives.
The equivalent of the manual labor low-paying job with no opportunity for promotion, I suppose.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The grind is a direct result from the "end game" concept. The idea that you have to jump through thousands of hoops in order to get to the "fun stuff". And of course, the more hoops the game has, the more "grindy" it is.
There are MMOs out there where it's all about the journey and not about a destination.
Do you think people feeling the need to "grind" to the end-game is the players' faults or the company's fault? Personally I never feel rushed to have to reach the end (at least I don't feel this way playing FFXIV currently), but I see many people even ones I personally know rushing to the very end and spending every waking minute leveling their "main" class despite the flexibility provided by the game. This results with players getting to the end even if it means ending with minimal amounts of resources/money, it's somewhat of a whatever-it-takes type attitude. I almost want to blame the players instead of the company for making some games feel like a "grind".
A good example was when a buddy started leveling a second class with no exp help from quests having done it on his main class, his comment was "back to the grind" and I was like, you mean "levequests, guildhests and hunting log?" and his response was "yup, grind". 3 activities all dismissed as grind because of this driven need to reach the end-game of a brand new game (which I'm not even entirely sure if a robust end-game exists for it yet). Can players ever be satisfied or prevented from calling MMO gameplay a grind or is this going to persist as long as MMO's exist?
LOL, nope. As long as there are people playing games, someone will call some aspect of gaming a "grind".
Your friend there is an example of what some would call a "content locust". Generally these player types rush to top level in a matter of a week or two of serious hardcore grinding; then complain that they're "bored" because the "end game" content hasn't been fully realized yet. They do the same thing over and over. With each new game they play, with the same result. And they're shocked, shocked that after rushing to max level that there is little to do. Well duh, the game is literally a few weeks old; it hasn't even gotten it's first patch yet!
To me, having to deal with players who rush through a game to reach "end game" is a grind.
Oh, and to answer your question from the first paragraph: to be honest that's a chicken/egg question. Really both parties have a hand in the creation of the "grind". The Developers hand is seen in the high xp curve at higher levels, the players hand is seen when players (a few highly vocal) demand more "end game" content within a week after release. The devs have to increase the xp curve to slow down the players so they can develop the content. The players skip content and "grind" instances, mobs, etc; to reach end game quicker. In truth, I'm with you in favoring the players over the devs for blame. The players who are doing this are doing it because they are trying to re-create the experience they had with an early game they played. Where it took forever to get to the high levels, but once there they had lots of fun. What they (generally) have forgotten is that that game that they enjoyed so much was several years old when they first started playing it. So the developers had lots of time to make lots of content for the high level players.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Here's an interesting discussion on the matter, as the comments show an interesting division in perception. Those familiar with the word outside of MMOs appear to go by the dictionary definition of repetitive, usually uninteresting, work. Those who first heard of it in their MMOs seem to view it differently.
The author does not even know the difference between a meaning(usage) and definition.
It isn't interesting article. The guy is just running his mouth without thinking...the result is something utterly stupid.
So posting around the FFXIV forum on this site, and it reminded me of an interesting word that I just don't quite understand. What exactly is grind? I feel like this can mean different things to different people.
Ultimately I understand its used for something that "forces people to waste their time". Something that people don't want to do but they have to do it for whatever incentive that was provided beyond it. I often see this used for killing monsters over and over again and I feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere. I mean killing monsters have been the core of many MMO's gameplay for so long, how can a fundamental part of an MMO be also considered a "grind"? Is this another term that people just haphazardly throw around to knock around particular MMO's or the whole genre in general?
What constitutes a GRIND in an MMO to you? And then how do you distinguish something that is a GRIND from something that isn't a GRIND?
Hmm, to me grind is kill 10.000 mobs to get to exhalted. Or "bring me 5 skins" and have to kil 354 mobs. :-)
Grinding, to me, generally means trying to reach an objective...while having to deal with the long and boring road of killing the same creatures or crafting the same item(s) over and over and over and over and over again.
Grinds are rather subjective but basically it comes down to how long it takes to achieve something or gather up materials.
Trying to hit level 40 from level 39? Takes about a month to do so and not because you aren't playing? That's a grind.
Need to gather up materials for a build or try to get specific equipment to drop from monsters but they just aren't dropping? That's a grind.
For some people, they love the grind. It makes them feel like they really achieved something. Others hate it because it makes things take longer than they should and simply keep them away from getting to their fun which is really what we're playing the game to begin with.
This is also probably why the free to play market does so well. Even when the game itself isn't grindy, people can just buy a booster to help their progression go even faster, and even stack it on top of XP/drop boost events for further progression. At least the Free To Play games that don't focus on pay to win.
Anything done to gain experience points. In EQ, we did this by camping mobs; sometimes spending six hours hunting in the same general area/dungeon. It never felt grindy because conversation was always present; hanging out with new friends in different parts of the world; joking, killing and sometimes dying.
Contrast this to Vanguard which has quest hubs which felt VERY grindy. Not much effort to complete each one, and they led you around by the nose. The quest xp and loot were over-the-top. Because everyone felt compelled to do quests, and out of combat regen prevented any conversation, the entire experience felt like a grind that quickly bored me.
POBS had the same problem.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The whole concept of "end game" introduced by EQ, with a terrible grind to get to it first, made that exponentially worse compared to game like UO where it was more about the journey than about the destination.
If your goal was to get max level, then EQ felt like a huge grind. If your goal was to adventure in various exciting locations, enjoying amusing conversation, getting xp along the way, then EQ was a paradise.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit Actually, the term as used in reference to repetitive work is one that has a negative connotation to it. If someone always replied with "It was a grind" each time you asked them how their work day was, you'd probably ask them why they don't look for another job.I don't doubt you'll want to argue that, but I rather not sidetrack the thread with grade school level lessons on how words work, so please read this page and catch up.
Irrelevant.Connotation does not change a meaning of the word. It is the same case you often happen to argue against - "true MMO", "true gamer", etc.Thing are no more real because of your personal bias.
So, then, in your mind every game ever made is a grind. - You hit the ball over and over in pong until you beat your opponent. - You jump and jump and jump some more in Donkey King to save the princess. - You kill and kill and kill again in an MMO to reach max level. (Or replace "kill" with "quest" for some MMOs.)
Everything done in a computer game is repetitive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by ariasaitcho Your friend there is an example of what some would call a "content locust". Generally these player types rush to top level in a matter of a week or two of serious hardcore grinding; then complain that they're "bored" because the "end game" content hasn't been fully realized yet. They do the same thing over and over. With each new game they play, with the same result. And they're shocked, shocked that after rushing to max level that there is little to do. Well duh, the game is literally a few weeks old; it hasn't even gotten it's first patch yet! To me, having to deal with players who rush through a game to reach "end game" is a grind. Oh, and to answer your question from the first paragraph: to be honest that's a chicken/egg question. Really both parties have a hand in the creation of the "grind". The Developers hand is seen in the high xp curve at higher levels, the players hand is seen when players (a few highly vocal) demand more "end game" content within a week after release. The devs have to increase the xp curve to slow down the players so they can develop the content. The players skip content and "grind" instances, mobs, etc; to reach end game quicker. In truth, I'm with you in favoring the players over the devs for blame. The players who are doing this are doing it because they are trying to re-create the experience they had with an early game they played. Where it took forever to get to the high levels, but once there they had lots of fun. What they (generally) have forgotten is that that game that they enjoyed so much was several years old when they first started playing it. So the developers had lots of time to make lots of content for the high level players.
Another question I'm also trying to get at is: when did rushing to the end game become this like so important thing? Like many players just play these MMO's like its just in their way and the actual game is at the end. It feels like no matter what a developer does, if it does include levels and experience then everything before the max level of anything is considered a "grind". I remembered how THE goal used to be reaching max level and you had to play every step of the way. Obviously this existed before the term "end game" came about, but why do we have an "end game" in the first place? When will players be able to enjoy the levels in between without feeling the need to rush to the end or did the conception of "end game" destroy pieces of that?
It feels like Guild Wars 2 has tried fairly hard to destroy having a true "end game" but friends that I played with and that have reached max level just dismiss the game has "lacking things to do at max level". It almost feels like GW2 has no choice but to eventually conform to providing some amounts of MAX level things or people won't feel as compelled to explore the other activities that they provided. Could we possibly have been desensitized to the thrill of the level and now just want to get to the end of everything without savoring the bits in the middle? I understand that perhaps this isn't all players but I feel its a big majority.
Much like the term 'noob' (and others), the term 'grind' is one of those commonly used terms which the vast majority of people simply don't know what it means.
There are often some 'grind' mechanics in MMOs, but for the most part the people that misuse the term are those that are impatient, materialistic, and are far too focus on the destination/reward rather than the journey.
Grind is the same thing you were doing when you thought the game was fun after you no longer think the game is fun.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by Velocinox Grind is the same thing you were doing when you thought the game was fun after you no longer think the game is fun.
I think this pretty much sums it up nicely.
In WoW, you could rep grind for some factions, and I did that for awhile to get better prices on gear, and access to some things that otherwise weren't accessible. I did the same thing when there were rep grinds for enchanting and that type of thing. Then, one day, it just wasn't that fun anymore. It went from being worth it to being a GRIND.
The GRIND status for those things persists to this day and it doesn't matter what game I'm playing. If I'm repetitively killing mobs for more anything, it almost always feels like a GRIND to me, even if I think the end results are going to be worth it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
I would categorize "forces people to waste their time" rather as a Time Sink Mechanism.
In and of itself that is not grind.
As a game may not have for instance Fast Travel and you have to walk everuwhere (Lineage II first itteration for example)...well you cannot say...the game is grindy because I have to walk everywhere wasting my time... it is a Time sink.
Grinding is as I see it, on purpose implemented Slow progression of everything that can progress in game. be it your character's experience, be it Crafting/gathering experience or materials, be it fopr Gear or Housing, ship building etc etc...
And there is a reason for it too. Since MMORPG's move away from the Sandbox Design and Open Gameplay and down the Themepark Design with Guided Gameplay, there needed to be a way to gauge the progression of the players to insure that a player for instance will play the game for at least 6 month before they go through the content and may decide to cancel their subscription.
It is all about making the MMORPG a viable profit making Business and game after game Themepark after tHemepark Devs have played with which strings to pull or push to see which Approach has the better Return and Generation of Profit...
if you ask me it is ridiculous...but it is what this Industry has come down to...making games for Investors..instead of making games for players and then getting rewarded..they want instead to insure ROI and Profit margins etc etc...
The have pretty much managed to get the initial Investment back, but still many MMO's are not generating the desired profits...and they simply don;t get it...they keep tryingt he same ol things...which players abandon a month or two down the line.
It has come to being about how to manipulate players to stay and pay longer...rather than how can we offer a Fun experience to players which they will enjoy and stay longer.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Here you got your answer and rebuttal.
Here's an interesting discussion on the matter, as the comments show an interesting division in perception. Those familiar with the word outside of MMOs appear to go by the dictionary definition of repetitive, usually uninteresting, work. Those who first heard of it in their MMOs seem to view it differently.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Repeating something in a game that has an objective unrelated to what you are doing.
EVE Online, it's ISK grind. Hundreds of PvE related content levels, all of them with the soul purpose of grinding ISK. Other games it might be exper grind. Material grind for crafting. You min/max the content according to what it is you are trying to accomplish and ignore what it is you are doing.
Well it absolutely means different things to different people. Most words mean slightly different things to different people based on lifetimes of different context.
As for myself, I love the topic of "the grind." I've spent considerable time talking about it here and elsewhere. For the purpose of this thread, I'll just say that I consistently define "grindy" as the point at which a particular bit of gameplay becomes so monotonous and repetitive that it no longer feels fun in its own right. It is diametrically opposed to gameplay fun. That is, players participating in something they deem to be grindy do not enjoy the moment by moment bits of gameplay that comprise the grind.
The distinction between gameplay fun and other kinds of fun is necessary because grindiness can actually increase another kind of MMO fun, progression fun. The longer it takes to reach a goal, the more arduous the journey (and yes, the more boring the journey), the more satisfying it can feel when the goal is finally attained.
In my opinion, it is paramount that MMOs strike a balance between gameplay fun and progression fun -- and, by proxy, grindiness. I think it's entirely possible to make certain lofty goals take a really long time to reach, while simultaneously keeping every step of the journey varied (to prevent monotony) and fun (because honestly, nobody wants to not have fun when they're playing).
Almost. I think you need the "with no alternatives" to really make the frustration level stick.
The MUDs or Korean Grinders with a single path to advancing your character; slaying (scientific notation required) creatures. Period. No alternatives.
The equivalent of the manual labor low-paying job with no opportunity for promotion, I suppose.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Your friend there is an example of what some would call a "content locust". Generally these player types rush to top level in a matter of a week or two of serious hardcore grinding; then complain that they're "bored" because the "end game" content hasn't been fully realized yet. They do the same thing over and over. With each new game they play, with the same result. And they're shocked, shocked that after rushing to max level that there is little to do. Well duh, the game is literally a few weeks old; it hasn't even gotten it's first patch yet!
To me, having to deal with players who rush through a game to reach "end game" is a grind.
Oh, and to answer your question from the first paragraph: to be honest that's a chicken/egg question. Really both parties have a hand in the creation of the "grind". The Developers hand is seen in the high xp curve at higher levels, the players hand is seen when players (a few highly vocal) demand more "end game" content within a week after release. The devs have to increase the xp curve to slow down the players so they can develop the content. The players skip content and "grind" instances, mobs, etc; to reach end game quicker. In truth, I'm with you in favoring the players over the devs for blame. The players who are doing this are doing it because they are trying to re-create the experience they had with an early game they played. Where it took forever to get to the high levels, but once there they had lots of fun. What they (generally) have forgotten is that that game that they enjoyed so much was several years old when they first started playing it. So the developers had lots of time to make lots of content for the high level players.
The author does not even know the difference between a meaning(usage) and definition.
It isn't interesting article. The guy is just running his mouth without thinking...the result is something utterly stupid.
Hmm, to me grind is kill 10.000 mobs to get to exhalted. Or "bring me 5 skins" and have to kil 354 mobs. :-)
Grinds are rather subjective but basically it comes down to how long it takes to achieve something or gather up materials.
Trying to hit level 40 from level 39? Takes about a month to do so and not because you aren't playing? That's a grind.
Need to gather up materials for a build or try to get specific equipment to drop from monsters but they just aren't dropping? That's a grind.
For some people, they love the grind. It makes them feel like they really achieved something. Others hate it because it makes things take longer than they should and simply keep them away from getting to their fun which is really what we're playing the game to begin with.
This is also probably why the free to play market does so well. Even when the game itself isn't grindy, people can just buy a booster to help their progression go even faster, and even stack it on top of XP/drop boost events for further progression. At least the Free To Play games that don't focus on pay to win.
Kingdom of Knights - Community Manager
Anything done to gain experience points. In EQ, we did this by camping mobs; sometimes spending six hours hunting in the same general area/dungeon. It never felt grindy because conversation was always present; hanging out with new friends in different parts of the world; joking, killing and sometimes dying.
Contrast this to Vanguard which has quest hubs which felt VERY grindy. Not much effort to complete each one, and they led you around by the nose. The quest xp and loot were over-the-top. Because everyone felt compelled to do quests, and out of combat regen prevented any conversation, the entire experience felt like a grind that quickly bored me.
POBS had the same problem.
If your goal was to get max level, then EQ felt like a huge grind. If your goal was to adventure in various exciting locations, enjoying amusing conversation, getting xp along the way, then EQ was a paradise.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
- You hit the ball over and over in pong until you beat your opponent.
- You jump and jump and jump some more in Donkey King to save the princess.
- You kill and kill and kill again in an MMO to reach max level. (Or replace "kill" with "quest" for some MMOs.)
Everything done in a computer game is repetitive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Another question I'm also trying to get at is: when did rushing to the end game become this like so important thing? Like many players just play these MMO's like its just in their way and the actual game is at the end. It feels like no matter what a developer does, if it does include levels and experience then everything before the max level of anything is considered a "grind". I remembered how THE goal used to be reaching max level and you had to play every step of the way. Obviously this existed before the term "end game" came about, but why do we have an "end game" in the first place? When will players be able to enjoy the levels in between without feeling the need to rush to the end or did the conception of "end game" destroy pieces of that?
It feels like Guild Wars 2 has tried fairly hard to destroy having a true "end game" but friends that I played with and that have reached max level just dismiss the game has "lacking things to do at max level". It almost feels like GW2 has no choice but to eventually conform to providing some amounts of MAX level things or people won't feel as compelled to explore the other activities that they provided. Could we possibly have been desensitized to the thrill of the level and now just want to get to the end of everything without savoring the bits in the middle? I understand that perhaps this isn't all players but I feel its a big majority.
Much like the term 'noob' (and others), the term 'grind' is one of those commonly used terms which the vast majority of people simply don't know what it means.
There are often some 'grind' mechanics in MMOs, but for the most part the people that misuse the term are those that are impatient, materialistic, and are far too focus on the destination/reward rather than the journey.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I think this pretty much sums it up nicely.
In WoW, you could rep grind for some factions, and I did that for awhile to get better prices on gear, and access to some things that otherwise weren't accessible. I did the same thing when there were rep grinds for enchanting and that type of thing. Then, one day, it just wasn't that fun anymore. It went from being worth it to being a GRIND.
The GRIND status for those things persists to this day and it doesn't matter what game I'm playing. If I'm repetitively killing mobs for more anything, it almost always feels like a GRIND to me, even if I think the end results are going to be worth it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Grind = anything I do with my character, that later didn't yield any benefit.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon