Its my thinking that the F2P model came about because game designers started makeing every class and skill set play "GUI stream lined"
If you take some of the old school games and tried each class you would find each class was almost like playing an entirely new game.
That said I would say the rate players choose to switch games (read switch classes) is the basis on how much money they need to get from the player per gaming "interest-holding time span".
In a F2P model they "can" get the amount of money out of a player before the players interest resets.
In a P2P model they need to rely on keeping interest longer to make up the diference which takes more work.
Now If we had a game where being a mage played so much direrently them being an archer or a melee each class choice can buffer the interest fade out leading to higher long term player retention.
BUT...
Going with single GUI setup and very simular game mechanics and producing more games is less "production consuming" per income then spending all the time up front.
Initial investment
That is the key idea here.
Now when a company decides to put in the up front production to make a game that has long term appeal the time it takes for them to get it out the door is longer then the "interest retention per class over income" formula's median for profit. Meaning if they want to spend that time then they need to keep it off our radar and hence lose most of their potential up front backing due to an untested market.
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry, but a payment model is a business model.
There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there. They have all flopped and gone to FREE TO PLAY to survive. They were not build using free money, they earned that off box sales, etc.. then went to FREE TO PLAY.
So, where are all these successful F2P game...? HOw does one BUILD a free game and offer it to you for free.. then make money while still providing the SAME quality as a subscription based game. It has never been done!
Runes of Magic is not better than LOTR, or EQ or WoW, or any other... it's just FREE.
Lastly, most games are FREE now, because they were not built with the quality, to demand a monthly subscription... and PEOPLE told these developers this. That is why everything is FREE now. Because it is not good enough for adult's to purchase, so they must give them away and hope emotional unstable people make rash purchases. Just like this guy^, who's friends spend $1k on free games... so they should have no problem using the same cash for a 4 year sub to a premium game.
Naw. There have been f2p MMO's since before UO that are still running. They can survive very very well.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry, but a payment model is a business model.
There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there. They have all flopped and gone to FREE TO PLAY to survive. They were not build using free money, they earned that off box sales, etc.. then went to FREE TO PLAY.
So, where are all these successful F2P game...? HOw does one BUILD a free game and offer it to you for free.. then make money while still providing the SAME quality as a subscription based game. It has never been done!
Runes of Magic is not better than LOTR, or EQ or WoW, or any other... it's just FREE.
Lastly, most games are FREE now, because they were not built with the quality, to demand a monthly subscription... and PEOPLE told these developers this. That is why everything is FREE now. Because it is not good enough for adult's to purchase, so they must give them away and hope emotional unstable people make rash purchases. Just like this guy^, who's friends spend $1k on free games... so they should have no problem using the same cash for a 4 year sub to a premium game.
Naw. There have been f2p MMO's since before UO that are still running. They can survive very very well.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
These are just a sample of the F2P games out there that whoop the arse out of most pay to play games (the only, only P2P game that deserves its monthly sub today is EVE-Online, everything else that comes out pay to play has better alternatives with more history in the F2P area, be they converted P2P games or venerable, or new, true F2P titles).
The fact you cannot be arsed to even post your real age on here and claim your older than you are also does not help your argument ( "^^" and "o.O" are at best used by 35 and below and I am being generous, at 23 I can barely cite anyone within my extended cyberspace and real space entourage that uses those besides a few girls and a handful of under 18 guys, this coupled with your obvious lack of monetary responsibility and lack of research into the topic you are discussing leads most to think you're at best in your late 20s).
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry, but a payment model is a business model.
There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there. They have all flopped and gone to FREE TO PLAY to survive. They were not build using free money, they earned that off box sales, etc.. then went to FREE TO PLAY.
So, where are all these successful F2P game...? HOw does one BUILD a free game and offer it to you for free.. then make money while still providing the SAME quality as a subscription based game. It has never been done!
Runes of Magic is not better than LOTR, or EQ or WoW, or any other... it's just FREE.
Lastly, most games are FREE now, because they were not built with the quality, to demand a monthly subscription... and PEOPLE told these developers this. That is why everything is FREE now. Because it is not good enough for adult's to purchase, so they must give them away and hope emotional unstable people make rash purchases. Just like this guy^, who's friends spend $1k on free games... so they should have no problem using the same cash for a 4 year sub to a premium game.
Naw. There have been f2p MMO's since before UO that are still running. They can survive very very well.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
These are just a sample of the F2P games out there that whoop the arse out of most pay to play games (the only, only P2P game that deserves its monthly sub today is EVE-Online, everything else that comes out pay to play has better alternatives with more history in the F2P area, be they converted P2P games or venerable, or new, true F2P titles).
The fact you cannot be arsed to even post your real age on here and claim your older than you are also does not help your argument ( "^^" and "o.O" are at best used by 35 and below and I am being generous, at 23 I can barely cite anyone within my extended cyberspace and real space entourage that uses those besides a few girls and a handful of under 18 guys, this coupled with your obvious lack of monetary responsibility and lack of research into the topic you are discussing leads most to think you're at best in your late 20s).
Please follow the thread.. those^ are not TRUE F2P games, because they were released as other than F2P and went to those business models.
I am 43 & already posted that in my OP. (I have my 25yr Class Reunion this month). How old are you?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Heh. I was talking about this the other day. I remember a few years ago making fun of people that spent hundreds of dollars on "free" games like Farmville. Jokes on me I guess because that plague spread to MMOs.
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop. Subscription = Actual content updates!
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry, but a payment model is a business model.
There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there. They have all flopped and gone to FREE TO PLAY to survive. They were not build using free money, they earned that off box sales, etc.. then went to FREE TO PLAY.
So, where are all these successful F2P game...? HOw does one BUILD a free game and offer it to you for free.. then make money while still providing the SAME quality as a subscription based game. It has never been done!
Runes of Magic is not better than LOTR, or EQ or WoW, or any other... it's just FREE.
Lastly, most games are FREE now, because they were not built with the quality, to demand a monthly subscription... and PEOPLE told these developers this. That is why everything is FREE now. Because it is not good enough for adult's to purchase, so they must give them away and hope emotional unstable people make rash purchases. Just like this guy^, who's friends spend $1k on free games... so they should have no problem using the same cash for a 4 year sub to a premium game.
Naw. There have been f2p MMO's since before UO that are still running. They can survive very very well.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
Doesn't matter.
You stated, "There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there" This is a false statement as there are f2p games out there still running since before and around UO.
Nothing about the quality. You said there wasn't any. Which is verifiable false.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VassagoMael Heh. I was talking about this the other day. I remember a few years ago making fun of people that spent hundreds of dollars on "free" games like Farmville. Jokes on me I guess because that plague spread to MMOs.
That reminded me of my personal story. Both my brothers play League of Legends for years. They have ended up spending in total one thousand points on that game; and one third was foolishly provided by me.
Cash Shops are becoming like what we call "Fruit Games" [reference to casino games]. I find it completely strange that people do not mind spending more on a F2P title per month than actually paying a small subscription fee. I guess the word "free" does it job right so far.
My view is that if we have got a valuable data to compare Subscription mmorpgs and F2P mmorpgs (history, statistics, revenue, profit) directly and not as a whole; there are far too many F2P mmorpgs than sub-based, we would see I believe that any good Subscription title sends to dust any F2P title. And history has showed us that.
I do find however appealing the masked premium service mmorpgs; i.e Aion, where it forces you to pay directly with real money or with in game currency for a sub called "Gold Pack" [can be sold in game] in which depending how much real money you spend for it you can get on top of that Aion coins which can be collected to get more Gold Packs.
For 2014, we are going to see Subscription MMOrpgs to have a very strong comeback as well as two exceptionally strong F2P titles.
Subscription MMOrpgs
World of Warcraft , Wildstar, Eve Online, Final Fantasy 14: A realm reborn, Elder Scrolls Online, Archeage, Bless, Blade & Soul, Camelot: Unchained, Camelot: Unchained, Lineage III
Past successful Subs-based; Lineage,Aion, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Ultima Online,
F2P MMOrpgs
Everquest Next, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter Nights Online, Star Citizen, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Rift, Diablo III,
Past successful F2P; MapleStory, Runescape, Guild Wars.
I still do not think F2P is the way to go for mmorpgs; it is the most complex massive multiplayer mode in comparison with MOBAs, MMOFPS/TPS and MMORTS. Therefore I would never pay monthly for any First Person Shooter, Strategy games and so on and so forth. My only exception would only be so far for Total War: Rome II where it is the only game right now outside the realm of mmorpgs that I would gladly pay monthly subscription fees if that was the case.
"Cash Shops are becoming like what we call "Fruit Games" [reference to casino games]. I find it completely strange that people do not mind spending more on a F2P title per month than actually paying a small subscription fee. I guess the word "free" does it job right so far."
Because I'm spending my money when I want, in my own temp, supporting my own way of playing and paying for it. It's just so much more convenient than subscription model... *shrug* but what do I know. I'm 36 with plenty of disposable income and I'm not going to play another P2P game in my life, for a number of reasons, and "free candy!" is not one of them. Quite honestly, when I read idiotic opinions like "it's only for children!" I'm glad that I'm not going to share my games with all y'all.
Why again are you playing your free game 20h week? Free clearly lacks quality that a 15 mmo veteran demands.
Quality and quantity are two different things. Truth of the matter is games today are filled with better quality, problem is they lack quantity. Old mmos lacked quality but made up for it in quantity of time sinks. They lacked production value, lacked in game-play, lacked in execution, they lacked in tech. These things are what makes up the quality of life in a gaming experience. They sacrificed for abundance, they added length to a subscription by penalizing progression. The mainstay was in the players themselves, they provided the long-term end-game, they manufactured it.
Anyway, the problem today isn't one of quality, it's quantity, which is sacrificed to offer quality.
There is a total lack of quality in MMORPG's today... mostof the terrain isn't real, all the graphics are geared toward minger rigs, textures & animations and content are all cheap and geared toward non-discerning gamers. There isn't a AAA MMORPG released in the last 5 years.
Free games are even cheaper and have less quality than their Pay counterparts. They server structure is based on cheap instancing and suffer from a fractured community...
I can go on and on about how FREE is mediocre quality. That is why oldschool gamers are no longer playing any of these MMORPGs and waiting for a premium model to roll out. And why the hard cash has left the marketplace.
There are more McDonald's, than steak houses...
I have to disagree...
I think there is plenty of quality out there; could it be better? Absolutely! (no matter how good games get, they can always be better)
As for a AAA mmorpg released in the last 5 years, Rift and GW2 come to mind (especially GW2)
With regards to F2P/B2P, I believe you are completely wrong. Yes, there are a lot of cheap korean/chinese F2P mmos out there, and I also don't think much of them, but GW2 has really set a new bar in the mmo industry. I would argue that GW2 is probably one of the best mmorpgs ever developed; it has plenty of room for growth and improvement, no doubt about that, but overall, one of the best.
I always get a kick out of people who make absolute all-encompassing claims regarding "oldschool" players, as if they are the spokesperson for an entire generation of gamers. Unless you represent some form of a guild or union of players (and can substantiate that claim), please speak for yourself and not the rest of us.
Play and let play!
P.S. please keep in mind english is not my first language; I apologize for any grammatical mistakes
You disagree.. then fail to support your rebuttal?
You are just saying your cheap and want to support your cheap decisions. Because RIFT was not a FREE TO PLAY game ... it was a failed SUBSCRIPTION based game, that went to a FREE TO PLAY business model because it was a flop of a MMORPG... so it had to move to a MMO free model and shut down servers so they Dev's can keep their jobs. Not to make the game better.
Secondly, GW2 is not even a MMORPG, nor was it trying to be one... it is not FREE to PLAY, because I bought a $100 collector's edition..
So... name a F2P game, that has a working business model please... that's been released in the last 5 years.
Understand that FREE TO PLAY is a gimmick perpetrated on all the younger WoW'tards that infested the MMORPG marketplace in the last 8 years.
These WoW-tards (13 ~25 year old) are considered fat blubbery whales to feast off of.. (from a developers pov), because they don't know what they want & they have no knowledge of history, or of quality... so the become victimized by all these developers.
I have not always been cheap; now that I'm married and with a 6 month old daughter, I have to be cheap. Way before I settled down, when I played wow, I spent well over $1k buying gold from chinese gold farmers; yes it was stupid and wrong of me! (though funny thing is, my account never got hacked... funny how that works)
I mentioned GW2 and RIFT only because they were/are AAA mmorpgs that have been released in the last 5 years, regardless of their payment model. Your words: "There isn't a AAA MMORPG released in the last 5 years."
If RIFT is a flop, its doing quite well as a "flop". I don't care much for RIFT, so I won't waste my time, or yours, trying to argue with you. However, regardless of our personal feelings, RIFT was/is a AAA mmorpg. Even AAA mmorpgs can succeed or fail.
As for GW2 not being an mmorpg?? Are you sure about that?? Wikipedia and the entire gaming community are under the impression that it is. And you are correct, GW2 is not F2P, it is B2P.
I find your disdain for an entire segment of the gaming community quite troubling; you should seriously consider seeking professional help with whatever issues are affecting you.
If Free2Play were around that long, and had quality... then EQ, UO and Ashron's call never would've made it, nor started out with $15 subs.
And that FREE has always been available choice. Can't attend a Pro/college football game, then goto the high school one for less, or junior varsity for FREE.
Free is relegated to those who cannot afford to pay.
The problem with your argument is that you equate F2P/B2P with low quality and P2P with high quality. Any payment model does not and cannot guarantee a certain level of quality.
Originally posted by Ujirik
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Ujirik, you forget that he claims to be 43, but we really don't know that he's 43 years old; for all we know who could belong to the community of pre-teen/teen gamers he hates so much.
Phelcher, please read Ujirik's post, and after you're done reading it, re-read it again; rinse and repeat for at least 5 hours.
"Cash Shops are becoming like what we call "Fruit Games" [reference to casino games]. I find it completely strange that people do not mind spending more on a F2P title per month than actually paying a small subscription fee. I guess the word "free" does it job right so far."
Because I'm spending my money when I want, in my own temp, supporting my own way of playing and paying for it. It's just so much more convenient than subscription model... *shrug* but what do I know. I'm 36 with plenty of disposable income and I'm not going to play another P2P game in my life, for a number of reasons, and "free candy!" is not one of them. Quite honestly, when I read idiotic opinions like "it's only for children!" I'm glad that I'm not going to share my games with all y'all.
The difference is that the way the business model is set up in there is still a sub called Gold Pack.
However if I was stuck in a situation where I would be forced to pay for an infinite amount as a casual player just to stay "competitive, relevant"; meaning spending a significant amount of pounds every two weeks or every two months for example, I would not be playing it. Once you are able to get a specific in-game-account-title (veteran) you receive monthly rewards; which means that even if I would be absent for a couple of months, I would return to find a great amount of rewards to carry on being "competitive, relevant" with the game.
Let me give you an example. If you pay up front 100 pounds you get 3000 Aion Coins; each "sub" costs 100 coins so therefore you would have 30 months of play time + 30 months worth of rewards; if you had to pay monthly for 30 months for 10 pounds you would to spend traditionally 300 pounds instead of a 100 pounds.
It gives me the freedom of choice on how I could make most of my time in there efficient. My argument is that for most supporters of F2P models, there is this wrong and distorted view that because it is "free" it is foolish to support Subscription mmorpgs where it is a given fact that the average active player in a FP2 title is most likely to spend 3-4 times more amount of money per monthly than the gamer who plays a subscription-based mmorpg.
In Aion, I have everything free. I am only paying for my sub in whatever means I want to pay it for. I do not have to spend a penny to unlock "extra stuff". I can get wings, costumes and so on and so forth with in game currency and quests. So I will never end up spending more than the average player who is actively playing a F2P title for months or years. I support that type of forced-sub because it is a win-win situation for me and the game.
That is the difference.
PS: I am not saying every single player of F2P titles spends a lot of money per month but statistics so far point out that it is more likely. It is common sense after all; the more you spend time on a game the more likely you will like it, the more likely will support it financially.
Anyway, I do not want to get trapped with semantics like it happened with Mass Effect at one point where you would have this split community of calling it "Third Person Shooter" and the other side. And you are right; I didn't intent to classify it as that in the heat of the moment.
You're 43 and still can't spell the word straight? Seriously, at least put in a little effort. You're also wrong about Free to Play being supported by children with no income. Free to Play games are successful because they appeal to a wider audience. They attract many players by offering the game for free and hope to snag the few people with tons of expendable cash. I've known many Free to Play gamers that spend upwards of $200-$500/week on a regular basis. That small percentage of big spenders is what primarily supports a F2P game and is followed by casual spenders that drop $10-$20 every now and then.
Anyway, people play Free to Play games because some of them are excellent. A payment model isn't what makes games entertaining. Try a few quality F2P games before you go on some crusade against them with no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry, but a payment model is a business model.
There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there. They have all flopped and gone to FREE TO PLAY to survive. They were not build using free money, they earned that off box sales, etc.. then went to FREE TO PLAY.
So, where are all these successful F2P game...? HOw does one BUILD a free game and offer it to you for free.. then make money while still providing the SAME quality as a subscription based game. It has never been done!
Runes of Magic is not better than LOTR, or EQ or WoW, or any other... it's just FREE.
Lastly, most games are FREE now, because they were not built with the quality, to demand a monthly subscription... and PEOPLE told these developers this. That is why everything is FREE now. Because it is not good enough for adult's to purchase, so they must give them away and hope emotional unstable people make rash purchases. Just like this guy^, who's friends spend $1k on free games... so they should have no problem using the same cash for a 4 year sub to a premium game.
Naw. There have been f2p MMO's since before UO that are still running. They can survive very very well.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
These are just a sample of the F2P games out there that whoop the arse out of most pay to play games (the only, only P2P game that deserves its monthly sub today is EVE-Online, everything else that comes out pay to play has better alternatives with more history in the F2P area, be they converted P2P games or venerable, or new, true F2P titles).
The fact you cannot be arsed to even post your real age on here and claim your older than you are also does not help your argument ( "^^" and "o.O" are at best used by 35 and below and I am being generous, at 23 I can barely cite anyone within my extended cyberspace and real space entourage that uses those besides a few girls and a handful of under 18 guys, this coupled with your obvious lack of monetary responsibility and lack of research into the topic you are discussing leads most to think you're at best in your late 20s).
Please follow the thread.. those^ are not TRUE F2P games, because they were released as other than F2P and went to those business models.
I am 43 & already posted that in my OP. (I have my 25yr Class Reunion this month). How old are you?
Actually those were all born F2P games . Now go do your research before borrowing dad's stuff to prove your point on a topic you cannot be bothered to research (btw I did mention my age in the post you rushed to counter, another + for you towards being under 30 at best).
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Actually all the statistics released by... everyone thats released anything actually show that the majority don't pay anything and minority pay a lot.
The most current ones I remember for 2012 or estimating for 2013 (in total for both) by Global I think, had half the community not paying and the other half paying and being classified accordingly (average spender, more than average, big spender, overspending player) and giving an average of 30-40 dollars spend per month.
Any game that allows the world to create accounts for free is exposing their player base to numerous unwanted population issues:
Gold Spamming, global chat trolling, cyber bullying, multi-boxing, short-term friending and a large amount of EULA violations are just a few of the problems.
At minimum a game like EQ Next should charge for each account key. This would force players to be more wary of their behavior online. There is an actual cost to having your account banned, or your characters shunned due to behavior-related reputation issues. If you have to pay $50 or $60 per account most of the afore-mentioned problems would occur much less frequently. That would be a good thing.
Any game that allows the world to create accounts for free is exposing their player base to numerous unwanted population issues:
Gold Spamming, global chat trolling, cyber bullying, multi-boxing, short-term friending and a large amount of EULA violations are just a few of the problems.
At minimum a game like EQ Next should charge for each account key. This would force players to be more wary of their behavior online. There is an actual cost to having your account banned, or your characters shunned due to behavior-related reputation issues. If you have to pay $50 or $60 per account most of the afore-mentioned problems would occur much less frequently. That would be a good thing.
P2P and even B2P cannot and do not guarantee a lessening of those problems; just like it is incorrect to assume that P2P = quality.
Much like gameplay and quality are dependant on the devs and not the payment model, all those problems you mentioned can only be mitigated by the devs and a self-policing gaming community.
The MMORPG industry has changed into the MMO industry.
It's not only MMO/rpg's that have changed, technoligy has changed, people have changed, gaming time has changed....just lets say everything changes some for the good some for the bad.
But the luminaries & oldschoolers who built this genre of gaming are now in the 30's & 40's. Brad McQuaid, John Smedley, Lord British and any of the people who played Meridain, Ultima & EQ. We are all adults now, all earning income & have homes, boats, sportscars, Jet ski's, etc..
So who exactly is asking for, & seeking out Free to Play games..?
It is children and adolescent youth from ages 12 ~22^ who have limited, or no source of income.
I do hope your are kidding.....right?
Just had my NFL draft this past weekend and looked around the room at many of my EQ guildmates and wondered why they would want a free game to play... So I asked. The response was unanimous "No!" They don't want to be troubled with "free realms" community & mentality. (easy is not challenging)
Heck I have played Free Realms, was fun for about 3 weeks, thankfully I am mature enough to filter out those players I might dislike ingame, same like I do in real life. Guess some people are not capable of doing that. Currently playing Rift while it didn't start as a F2P game it was the F2P game that actually made me enjoy the game for it not to go free to play I would have remained in my disappointed position of not like Rift during beta.
So why are the oldschooler being under sold..? An adult can easily throw $240 ~ $500/year (at a game) if we want... yet most Dev's are making games for children and try to nickel & dime their parents. Instead of going strait to the revenue source.
You keep refering to childern ? Why is that, seems kinda insecure. I myself have no problem letting my inner child go out and play GAMES. Don't worry I don't play everything. But I do play what I personaly might enjoy regardless if some person might think it's for childern. Then again many if not most none-gamers already might suggest that games are for childern. Yet I find it strange when an actually gamer uses that reference.
Why not go strait to the revenues and make a premium game... and charge a premium..?
Shouldn't we first see a few more succesfull sub-based games before asking for a premium game. Once developers are able to deliver a flawless gaming experiance for the majority of it's players it might be then when I would ask for a more premium game.
I just don't know how developers could even make a premium game. I am sure many have tried. Lets face it SWTOR should have been a Premium game with all the money and experiance that went into the game. Simple fact we have games that went from P2P to F2P. Sure the revenu might be higher, but in the end who decides when a game is premium.
EQN seems to go F2P, which is actually my one and only concern I have about the game as I for now just don't understand how a sandbox game would work with cashshops. I will admit I would rather have EQN go subscription. So you see it's not that I want free games, but I do want games that are worth my time and money.
An MMORPG should entertain me for years and years. I already get small time bursts from enjoying single/multiplayer games. So far most MMO's since WoW have giving me pleasure but most for a short period of time. The last game I have Enjoyed for a little more the one and a half year was Fallen Earth. Everything else either a few weeks or a few months. While some of them where sub-based they didn't deliver something I felt was worth continueing.
FWIW: I am 43 and spent $155 on 4 tanks of gasoline this holiday weekend. (<---- Why don't developers want any of that money..? ^^)
You really think developers don't want that money?
Originally posted by VassagoMael Heh. I was talking about this the other day. I remember a few years ago making fun of people that spent hundreds of dollars on "free" games like Farmville. Jokes on me I guess because that plague spread to MMOs.
Yes.
Originally posted by Ozivois Any game that allows the world to create accounts for free is exposing their player base to numerous unwanted population issues:
Gold Spamming, global chat trolling, cyber bullying, multi-boxing, short-term friending and a large amount of EULA violations are just a few of the problems.
At minimum a game like EQ Next should charge for each account key. This would force players to be more wary of their behavior online. There is an actual cost to having your account banned, or your characters shunned due to behavior-related reputation issues. If you have to pay $50 or $60 per account most of the afore-mentioned problems would occur much less frequently. That would be a good thing.
Agreed
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Anyway, I do not want to get trapped with semantics like it happened with Mass Effect at one point where you would have this split community of calling it "Third Person Shooter" and the other side. And you are right; I didn't intent to classify it as that in the heat of the moment.
I will take that. Personally i don't really care much about semantics.
D3 is close enough, in playstyle, to MMORPGs for me. Whether it is actually called a MMORPG is pretty much irrelevant to me .. in terms of deciding whether to play it, or whether to use it as example for discussing some MMORPGs gameplay features and mechanics (for example, perma-death).
Any game that allows the world to create accounts for free is exposing their player base to numerous unwanted population issues:
Gold Spamming, global chat trolling, cyber bullying, multi-boxing, short-term friending and a large amount of EULA violations are just a few of the problems.
At minimum a game like EQ Next should charge for each account key. This would force players to be more wary of their behavior online. There is an actual cost to having your account banned, or your characters shunned due to behavior-related reputation issues. If you have to pay $50 or $60 per account most of the afore-mentioned problems would occur much less frequently. That would be a good thing.
P2P and even B2P cannot and do not guarantee a lessening of those problems; just like it is incorrect to assume that P2P = quality.
Much like gameplay and quality are dependant on the devs and not the payment model, all those problems you mentioned can only be mitigated by the devs and a self-policing gaming community.
P2P and B2P ABSOLUTELY guarantee a lessening of these problems. As the devs and players police the community, offenders are not going to want to keep buying new accounts because it's too expensive. In free to play, these offenders can create an infinite amount of free accounts, allowing them with having nothing to lose except a character's progression. But even in that case, offenders will log in their "mule" accounts to offend anyways, staying anonymous and protecting their "main" account from getting banned, etc.
Comments
Its my thinking that the F2P model came about because game designers started makeing every class and skill set play "GUI stream lined"
If you take some of the old school games and tried each class you would find each class was almost like playing an entirely new game.
That said I would say the rate players choose to switch games (read switch classes) is the basis on how much money they need to get from the player per gaming "interest-holding time span".
In a F2P model they "can" get the amount of money out of a player before the players interest resets.
In a P2P model they need to rely on keeping interest longer to make up the diference which takes more work.
Now If we had a game where being a mage played so much direrently them being an archer or a melee each class choice can buffer the interest fade out leading to higher long term player retention.
BUT...
Going with single GUI setup and very simular game mechanics and producing more games is less "production consuming" per income then spending all the time up front.
Initial investment
That is the key idea here.
Now when a company decides to put in the up front production to make a game that has long term appeal the time it takes for them to get it out the door is longer then the "interest retention per class over income" formula's median for profit. Meaning if they want to spend that time then they need to keep it off our radar and hence lose most of their potential up front backing due to an untested market.
Already been discussed.
Why are you & everyone else, not playing them..? It is because they are garbage compared to todays standards. Matter- of -fact.. they are archaic and remedial.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
http://vindictus.nexoneu.com/NXEU.aspx
http://worldoftanks.com/
http://mabinogi.nexon.net/
http://www.therepopulation.com/
http://warthunder.com/ ( - similar to World of Tanks/World of Warplanes at the moment but will one day include a persistent, World at War mode)
And if we're going with old games:
http://www.furcadia.com/
http://www.achaea.com/
These are just a sample of the F2P games out there that whoop the arse out of most pay to play games (the only, only P2P game that deserves its monthly sub today is EVE-Online, everything else that comes out pay to play has better alternatives with more history in the F2P area, be they converted P2P games or venerable, or new, true F2P titles).
The fact you cannot be arsed to even post your real age on here and claim your older than you are also does not help your argument ( "^^" and "o.O" are at best used by 35 and below and I am being generous, at 23 I can barely cite anyone within my extended cyberspace and real space entourage that uses those besides a few girls and a handful of under 18 guys, this coupled with your obvious lack of monetary responsibility and lack of research into the topic you are discussing leads most to think you're at best in your late 20s).
Please follow the thread.. those^ are not TRUE F2P games, because they were released as other than F2P and went to those business models.
I am 43 & already posted that in my OP. (I have my 25yr Class Reunion this month). How old are you?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!
Doesn't matter.
You stated, "There are not one sustainable FREE TO PLAY MMORPG out there" This is a false statement as there are f2p games out there still running since before and around UO.
Nothing about the quality. You said there wasn't any. Which is verifiable false.
That reminded me of my personal story. Both my brothers play League of Legends for years. They have ended up spending in total one thousand points on that game; and one third was foolishly provided by me.
Cash Shops are becoming like what we call "Fruit Games" [reference to casino games]. I find it completely strange that people do not mind spending more on a F2P title per month than actually paying a small subscription fee. I guess the word "free" does it job right so far.
My view is that if we have got a valuable data to compare Subscription mmorpgs and F2P mmorpgs (history, statistics, revenue, profit) directly and not as a whole; there are far too many F2P mmorpgs than sub-based, we would see I believe that any good Subscription title sends to dust any F2P title. And history has showed us that.
I do find however appealing the masked premium service mmorpgs; i.e Aion, where it forces you to pay directly with real money or with in game currency for a sub called "Gold Pack" [can be sold in game] in which depending how much real money you spend for it you can get on top of that Aion coins which can be collected to get more Gold Packs.
For 2014, we are going to see Subscription MMOrpgs to have a very strong comeback as well as two exceptionally strong F2P titles.
Subscription MMOrpgs
World of Warcraft , Wildstar, Eve Online, Final Fantasy 14: A realm reborn, Elder Scrolls Online, Archeage, Bless, Blade & Soul, Camelot: Unchained, Camelot: Unchained, Lineage III
Past successful Subs-based; Lineage,Aion, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Ultima Online,
F2P MMOrpgs
Everquest Next, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter Nights Online, Star Citizen, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Rift, Diablo III,
Past successful F2P; MapleStory, Runescape, Guild Wars.
I still do not think F2P is the way to go for mmorpgs; it is the most complex massive multiplayer mode in comparison with MOBAs, MMOFPS/TPS and MMORTS. Therefore I would never pay monthly for any First Person Shooter, Strategy games and so on and so forth. My only exception would only be so far for Total War: Rome II where it is the only game right now outside the realm of mmorpgs that I would gladly pay monthly subscription fees if that was the case.
http://massauthority.blogspot.co.uk/
"Cash Shops are becoming like what we call "Fruit Games" [reference to casino games]. I find it completely strange that people do not mind spending more on a F2P title per month than actually paying a small subscription fee. I guess the word "free" does it job right so far."
Because I'm spending my money when I want, in my own temp, supporting my own way of playing and paying for it. It's just so much more convenient than subscription model... *shrug* but what do I know. I'm 36 with plenty of disposable income and I'm not going to play another P2P game in my life, for a number of reasons, and "free candy!" is not one of them. Quite honestly, when I read idiotic opinions like "it's only for children!" I'm glad that I'm not going to share my games with all y'all.
I have not always been cheap; now that I'm married and with a 6 month old daughter, I have to be cheap. Way before I settled down, when I played wow, I spent well over $1k buying gold from chinese gold farmers; yes it was stupid and wrong of me! (though funny thing is, my account never got hacked... funny how that works)
I mentioned GW2 and RIFT only because they were/are AAA mmorpgs that have been released in the last 5 years, regardless of their payment model. Your words: "There isn't a AAA MMORPG released in the last 5 years."
If RIFT is a flop, its doing quite well as a "flop". I don't care much for RIFT, so I won't waste my time, or yours, trying to argue with you. However, regardless of our personal feelings, RIFT was/is a AAA mmorpg. Even AAA mmorpgs can succeed or fail.
As for GW2 not being an mmorpg?? Are you sure about that?? Wikipedia and the entire gaming community are under the impression that it is. And you are correct, GW2 is not F2P, it is B2P.
I find your disdain for an entire segment of the gaming community quite troubling; you should seriously consider seeking professional help with whatever issues are affecting you.
Ujirik, you forget that he claims to be 43, but we really don't know that he's 43 years old; for all we know who could belong to the community of pre-teen/teen gamers he hates so much.
Phelcher, please read Ujirik's post, and after you're done reading it, re-read it again; rinse and repeat for at least 5 hours.
Ujirik is absolutely correct!
Really? D3 is a F2P MMORPGs?
How is a $60 game free to play? And some here will burst a blood vessel if you call it a MMORPG (though personally i think it is close enough).
Diablo 3 is NOT an mmorpg.
F2P = No purchase cost, no subscription cost. Example: Lotro
B2P = purchase cost with no subscription cost. Example: GW2
P2P = purchase cost with subscription cost. Example: WOW
I never said that I do not understand the convenience a F2P title provides you. I am actually playing one [Aion] for a couple of hours per week because I belong to that category perfectly put out in this article (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01/12/the-tattered-notebook-why-i-came-back-to-everquest-ii/).
The difference is that the way the business model is set up in there is still a sub called Gold Pack.
However if I was stuck in a situation where I would be forced to pay for an infinite amount as a casual player just to stay "competitive, relevant"; meaning spending a significant amount of pounds every two weeks or every two months for example, I would not be playing it. Once you are able to get a specific in-game-account-title (veteran) you receive monthly rewards; which means that even if I would be absent for a couple of months, I would return to find a great amount of rewards to carry on being "competitive, relevant" with the game.
Let me give you an example. If you pay up front 100 pounds you get 3000 Aion Coins; each "sub" costs 100 coins so therefore you would have 30 months of play time + 30 months worth of rewards; if you had to pay monthly for 30 months for 10 pounds you would to spend traditionally 300 pounds instead of a 100 pounds.
It gives me the freedom of choice on how I could make most of my time in there efficient. My argument is that for most supporters of F2P models, there is this wrong and distorted view that because it is "free" it is foolish to support Subscription mmorpgs where it is a given fact that the average active player in a FP2 title is most likely to spend 3-4 times more amount of money per monthly than the gamer who plays a subscription-based mmorpg.
In Aion, I have everything free. I am only paying for my sub in whatever means I want to pay it for. I do not have to spend a penny to unlock "extra stuff". I can get wings, costumes and so on and so forth with in game currency and quests. So I will never end up spending more than the average player who is actively playing a F2P title for months or years. I support that type of forced-sub because it is a win-win situation for me and the game.
That is the difference.
PS: I am not saying every single player of F2P titles spends a lot of money per month but statistics so far point out that it is more likely. It is common sense after all; the more you spend time on a game the more likely you will like it, the more likely will support it financially.
http://massauthority.blogspot.co.uk/
I do personally think that it comes close too but I agree with this article that it is best defined as a "hybrid"; http://diablohq.com/is-diablo-3-an-mmorpg-or-just-a-rpg/ maybe?
Anyway, I do not want to get trapped with semantics like it happened with Mass Effect at one point where you would have this split community of calling it "Third Person Shooter" and the other side. And you are right; I didn't intent to classify it as that in the heat of the moment.
http://massauthority.blogspot.co.uk/
Actually those were all born F2P games
. Now go do your research before borrowing dad's stuff to prove your point on a topic you cannot be bothered to research (btw I did mention my age in the post you rushed to counter, another + for you towards being under 30 at best).
The most current ones I remember for 2012 or estimating for 2013 (in total for both) by Global I think, had half the community not paying and the other half paying and being classified accordingly (average spender, more than average, big spender, overspending player) and giving an average of 30-40 dollars spend per month.
I will try to find that report if I can.
http://massauthority.blogspot.co.uk/
Any game that allows the world to create accounts for free is exposing their player base to numerous unwanted population issues:
Gold Spamming, global chat trolling, cyber bullying, multi-boxing, short-term friending and a large amount of EULA violations are just a few of the problems.
At minimum a game like EQ Next should charge for each account key. This would force players to be more wary of their behavior online. There is an actual cost to having your account banned, or your characters shunned due to behavior-related reputation issues. If you have to pay $50 or $60 per account most of the afore-mentioned problems would occur much less frequently. That would be a good thing.
P2P and even B2P cannot and do not guarantee a lessening of those problems; just like it is incorrect to assume that P2P = quality.
Much like gameplay and quality are dependant on the devs and not the payment model, all those problems you mentioned can only be mitigated by the devs and a self-policing gaming community.
Yes.
Agreed
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
I will take that. Personally i don't really care much about semantics.
D3 is close enough, in playstyle, to MMORPGs for me. Whether it is actually called a MMORPG is pretty much irrelevant to me .. in terms of deciding whether to play it, or whether to use it as example for discussing some MMORPGs gameplay features and mechanics (for example, perma-death).
P2P and B2P ABSOLUTELY guarantee a lessening of these problems. As the devs and players police the community, offenders are not going to want to keep buying new accounts because it's too expensive. In free to play, these offenders can create an infinite amount of free accounts, allowing them with having nothing to lose except a character's progression. But even in that case, offenders will log in their "mule" accounts to offend anyways, staying anonymous and protecting their "main" account from getting banned, etc.