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Why did MMOs become about the money and numbers?
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Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
No, its the economic viability stuff that makes you understand why they're doing what they do. It is still relevant. Much of what I've tried to explain to you is the more plausible reasons why things are the way things are.
We've been over this. You are not the judge whether something is a "pop choice" and one requires a refined taste. You are not the judge on what is good and what is bad. I could equally say WoW is the Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings whereas Darkfall is someone filming themselves LARPing in the backyard for half an hour. Where does that lead us? Those metaphors are useless.
You said companies changed. I said they've always been like that. And lets face it. You're not in favor of any of the things you've listed. You're merely here to promote your preferences. You and every other guy posting.
UO had a carrot just as much as any other game because people ground their skills, farmed money, get the next pet, get the next weapon - basically accumulate power, just like in every other game before and after it. That is the carrot.
We are dealing with preferences, which are neither right or wrong. I don't know where you get the confidence to imply that you know better, that your opinions matter more than anyone else's.
You have nothing but speculation. Your hypothesis has little if any weight to it. It does look like you've made up a narrative to fit your argument. Nothing you can proof. But in your words: "Just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean its not true".
Things are different from 10 years ago. But not for the reasons you state. There are far more plausible explanations why we are where we are, which don't require us to insult developers. You're the type of poster, I'd imagine, who would've been part of the mob that made that one indie dev throw his hands in the air and say: "Fuck it."
Many issue were specifically due to the simulation nature. People voted with their wallets when MMORPGs got "gamey". And now we are getting to an issue where every sandbox fan says "it could be" when overwhelming majority of times it doesn't. Yes I could have a fight without matchmaking, I could encounter something on the way, I could talk to this guy... but usually, nothing of the above happens. That's why things were streamlined.
But this is a dead-end issue: Some people like simulation better. To each their own.
I don't know when it is economically viable. But unless you make it appealing to the companies you shouldn't expect it.
You're the one yelling the method of keeping score is wrong: Revenue. WoW beat the crap out of everybody.
You can't even prove that sandboxes are Mozart and WoW Katy Perry. Maybe WoW is Mozart and sanboxes are kids beating pots and pans with sticks. What if Eve Online is the Katy Perry of sandboxes and all the Mozarts are so tiny they're not economically viable?
Metaphors like that don't work.
It exists because it has a derogatory meaning used by haters such as yourself. You keep it alive.
Stick to what you know and all that. If the civilization series is the only game you've ever played, guess what game should you make? It is incredibly presumptuous and insulting to claim that "most companies" do things only for money.
Trends. There is a surge of supposed sandboxes incoming. It is funny that you put so much credit on forums, though. Maybe take some credit for it, hmm?
Building stuff is crafting isn't it? You are over-extending the term complexity. Legos themselves are simple. That's the point of minimizing complexity. Similarly the pieces and moves in Go and Chess are simple.
Right off the bat, can you tell me how many first tier builds there are in PoE?
A veteran MTG player said once to me, there are well over ten thousand different cards in Magic the Gathering, but there's no more than 8 top tier tournament decks (with minor variations) at any given time. That is if the balance hasn't been broken by some recent card(s).
Sirlin wrote that while Street Fighter games might have had something like two dozen different characters, only 7 or so were considered viable for tournament play. If they could've gotten that number up to 12 they would've been ecstatic.
Then there are games like rock-paper-scissors which have perfect balance: complexity = depth. But as you increase complexity the more difficult it becomes to balance. So you see, depth and complexity don't necessarily scale very well.
Again, PoE has a vast number of choices, how many "top tier builds" are there (with minor variations)?
People told that because Guild Wars 1 had only humans as a playable race it wasn't deep. People say that just because a game focuses on adventuring (exploring dungeons, killing monsters, finding treasures), it is not deep. People know shit. You don't need crafting to be deep. And not all crafting is deep. You don't need to be a simulation to be deep. Games only need to be deep in the stuff they do.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
But who is winning? Quirhid is the less verbose of the two, but they are both showing remarkable stamina. I haven't read the walls of text, but does anyone know which of the two is staying more on point?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Quirhid's level of persistence here is fascinating. Meanwhile, Holophonist reminds me a lot of Emergence when it comes to the sheer relentlessness. Where they differ is Emergence actually knew what he was talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But if they're now moving more towards games that we've been advocating for, then it's bullshit to say that they weren't making those types of games because it wasn't viable.
Maybe WoW is the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to hear why though. But either way, again I'm not sure why you think the MMO genre is unique in this regard. I'm not sure why you're unwilling to admit that in every genre there are going to be watered down products that float to the top because they lightly appeal to most people. That doesn't mean NO AAA game can be good.
I'm not hiding the fact that I don't like the things that I've been complaining about obviously. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. I want innovation because it let's pick people and choose what they want. Instead what we have is a lot of companies trying to rehash stuff that other companies have done trying to steal a piece of the pie.
So regardless of whether individual companies have changed (I'm sure there are some), do you deny that the genre has changed?
Yeah except this just isn't how UO worked... at least not early UO. There was no "next weapon." And grinding skills didn't take as long (in general) as it takes to level up in games like WoW. And you mention accumulating power. That's not a carrot. That's a continuous process. Also you can do things with your wealth. You can buy out competing merchants, you can buy and decorate a castle, etc. There aren't set landmarks like there are in WoW. Not only that, the rewards that you do work towards are things that you decide to do on your own, not pre-determined shinies.
But again, there's no carrot in UO. I can think of very few times you're grinding something just to get a certain "thing."
More plausible than what? A company comes in, makes a wildly successful themepark and for a long time following this game, that becomes a standard way of doing things. A lot of the same concepts are used over and over and over because companies are trying to capitalize on WoW's success.
I think it's more likely that developers did exactly what you say they shouldn't: take direct advice from the playerbase instead of designing their own game. And I think they did so because it seemed like the quickest and easiest way to increase their playerbase. You don't being PK'd? We'll just implement Trammel! You don't like losing your vanq katana? Item blessing!
Well then I guess I better keep talking on the forums about how much I like sandboxes, eh? But either way, you're again not speaking to the actual point and this is becoming increasingly pointless when I have to repeat things I JUST said.
If you think we're currently at that point, the point where mmos are as targeted as they can be, then you're crazy. Do you think we're at that point? Because if we're not, why do people bring up the "economic viability" argument? And if we ARE at that point? How are sandbox games being developed right now?
It depends on how you're keeping score. Revenue is an absolutely ridiculous way to keep score, but as long as themeparks are the top dog, you guys will continue to use it, despite its obvious problems.
Yes, what if they are? Do you think they are? You keep denying things as if I'm offering proof of something. I'm pointing towards similar phenomenons in other industries. Like cookie cutter blockbuster movies rehashing tired old cliches because it's a "winning formula"... sound familiar? Or the fact that Katy Perry and other pop musicians are super popular... that doesn't mean they're better. Get it?
But how are we able to use it? You don't think there are games that share a lot of similarities with WoW because they're trying to cash in on that success? Btw:
"This was an obvious big topic at the show, as Sandbox is the new buzzword in the MMO industry. Its the darling, right? Too many copycat games! Too many WoW-clones!"
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7742
I'm not the only person that notices this trend.
I don't know if I did say most companies do things only for money. I may have by mistake, but can you show me where? Stick to what you know means nothing. There are any number of easy changes they could make to Darkfall that would instantly increase their playerbase. They could so easily make the game more forgiving, but they don't want to. THIS is you having an opinion and trying to ignore evidence to the contrary.
THIS. IS. SO. POINTLESS. You're just dodging everything. Are you saying that a lot of people on the forums complaining about a lack of sandboxes has nothing to do with this influx of sandboxes? I didn't say anything about taking credit for it, and I didn't put any specific amount of credit on the forums.... straw man argument much?
But you've been saying all along that it's pointless to argue about it on the forums because companies won't listen. I think it's incredible naive to assume that developers have no idea that a lot of people want a sandbox game, and then they made sandbox games anyway. Or they knew that a lot of people wanted sandbox games, made sandbox games, but it had nothing to do with them knowing we wanted them.
What does it matter how many "top tier builds" there are in PoE?
And naming games that have complexity but no depth doesn't have anything to do with what I've said... in fact I've already explicitly said that complexity doesn't equal depth. You can't just have complexity and have it translate into depth. But in order to have depth you have to have complexity on some level. And you being you, that has been completely ignored here.
Yes, legos themselves are simple. Just like chess is simple. just like go is simple. That doesn't mean there's no complexity. The complexity with legos comes in the fact that there are an almost infinite amount of things you can build. With games like chess and go, it comes from the amount of strategies and the emergent decisions. Why? Because depth needs complexity.
And you still haven't answered my questions about crafting or character customization. Are you suggesting a crafting system in an MMO based on legos? Because even if you were, that would be pretty damn complex... if you had a bunch of different recipes to build weapons and you had to do so using legos.
Spamming and de-railing the thread. ;-)
It'll probably take devs a week to sort through this mess lmao.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
Spamming and de-railing the thread. ;-)
It'll probably take devs a week to sort through this mess lmao.
Most of what we're talking about now is pretty on topic.Quirhid's level of persistence here is fascinating. Meanwhile, Holophonist reminds me a lot of Emergence when it comes to the sheer relentlessness. Where they differ is Emergence actually knew what he was talking about.
I've never understood how people on the internet can be unwilling to have a discussion with somebody and still try to claim that person is wrong.If you take issue with something I've said, please speak up. If not, try not to insult me. Pretty simple.
Dude, I tried. I really did. You just went in circles and we got nowhere.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Quirhid's level of persistence here is fascinating. Meanwhile, Holophonist reminds me a lot of Emergence when it comes to the sheer relentlessness. Where they differ is Emergence actually knew what he was talking about.
I've never understood how people on the internet can be unwilling to have a discussion with somebody and still try to claim that person is wrong.If you take issue with something I've said, please speak up. If not, try not to insult me. Pretty simple.
Dude, I tried. I really did. You just went in circles and we got nowhere.
Well he and I are talking about different things than what you and I have talked about.But either way, you're allowed to walk away from a discussion that you don't feel is fruitful, I just think that by doing so you kind of give up the right to comment from outside.
What exactly does this mean? Could you elaborate on this? Like, what's the risk/liability of letting a developer talk to his/hers customers?
Not a problem. Let me know what the proper span of posts is that one must contribute during in order to avoid forfeiting their right to reply again. I'll stick within whatever the generally accepted limit is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
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