People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
(They do come out with Mustang reboots, pretty regularly, but we don't like talking about the Mustang II.)
We have no problem moving along believe it or not. If these guys don't want our money there are plenty of entertainment companies that do.
But just when we're leaving they start claiming sandboxes and virtual worlds and crafting as a core again. Either stop marketing to us or let us leave. We've compromised enough already.
So, what you are saying is that all it takes is a little marketing, and you dont leave. The way I see it, this is your problem, not theirs. If I were to believe all the wonderful things promised by advertising... I would also be dissapointed.... but I dont.
Blame whoever you want, but there's plenty of blame on both sides. If a company markets to an audience, they're the ones that have to meet expectations.
Disappointment isn't really that awful, at least when it makes for good jokes. We'll be ok.
Stop giving them money or hype until they cater to us. There is plenty of other companies who want that money. Until then give them silence.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
The market isn't confused. The market sees two groups (one huge, one tiny) both of which will give them money if the developer creates a game suited to them. Big surprise that they choose the larger group, satisfying more players and earning more money.
The primary confusion is if players want big-budget games created for niche-sized audiences.
Game budgets fit audience size. You can find plenty of niche-targeted indie games, but they're going to have niche-sized budgets (which rules out many forms of MMOs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Sadly its the fact that the developers are controlled by the publishers and publishers want the biggest audience. The MMO audience now consists of all the FPSers looking for a new competitive game (both PvE and PvP competitiveness). So now we have meters for dps/threat/healing for the PvErs to "optimize" raid performance. Sadly all this leads to is vile and disrespectful community members who care more about themselves rather than overcoming challenges together in a massive multiplayer world.
We, the old MMO players and Role players, are now the minority. Individual gear and stats are more important to these games than the actual content being played. This can be seen in both themeparks and sandboxes. This is a community issue....and sadly won't change in our favor simply because we are the minority and companies want the majority.
Of course 'vote' with your wallet. It amazes me that people buy games that suck. Still each to their own. If someone can get fun from SWTOR, more power to them.
The idea that companies/developers never listen to consumers seems a little disingenuous though. There are obviously times when they have. How much will a developer listen if I whine about something online? Not at all. How much will they listen if a thousand of us whine? 10,000? A fraction more than not at all perhaps.
Depends on the company/developer.
I suppose everyone who is dissatisfied could just passively wait for the market to magically create what they desire.
Of course 'vote' with your wallet. It amazes me that people buy games that suck. Still each to their own. If someone can get fun from SWTOR, more power to them.
The idea that companies/developers never listen to consumers seems a little disingenuous though. There are obviously times when they have. How much will a developer listen if I whine about something online? Not at all. How much will they listen if a thousand of us whine? 10,000? A fraction more than not at all perhaps.
Depends on the company/developer.
I suppose everyone who is dissatisfied could just passively wait for the market to magically create what they desire.
Na, we can just take our entertainment dollars elsewhere now.
Music, tv, film, all kinds of art are catering to us with high quality productions. That wasn't so true 10 years ago. Plus the indie scene is great now. There are tons of player mods out.
We don't need to care anymore, we just haven't stopped caring yet. we will.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
UO peaked out at 250k
EVE currently 500k,
EQ 450k+
Asherons call 120k
DAoC 250k
Final Fantasy XI 500k+
Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide
Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide
SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted. Don't say anything about Lineage 1 or 2 worldwide either because if you neglect that then you certainly have to neglect the 6 million that WoW has in China. Its not like these people died or just disappeared so is their a market for the more hardcore? Even if only a third of that number played the game it would still be more popular than the second most popular themepark game, so I would say yes. Not to mention the new crowd isn't all going to be in the new kids crowd; there are going to be people that play the games like WoW and want more and realize they really do want something akin to the old school.
It is also tiring seeing people gauge a Companies success off of a games sub number. It doesn't work that way. If a game is pulling profit after 3+ years it is a success; it doesn't matter if they have 120 subs or 120k subs, from a business standpoint it was a success.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
UO peaked out at 250k
EVE currently 500k,
EQ 450k+
Asherons call 120k
DAoC 250k
Final Fantasy XI 500k+
Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide
Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide
SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted. Don't say anything about Lineage 1 or 2 worldwide either because if you neglect that then you certainly have to neglect the 6 million that WoW has in China. Its not like these people died or just disappeared so is their a market for the more hardcore? Even if only a third of that number played the game it would still be more popular than the second most popular themepark game, so I would say yes. Not to mention the new crowd isn't all going to be in the new kids crowd; there are going to be people that play the games like WoW and want more and realize they really do want something akin to the old school.
It is also tiring seeing people gauge a Companies success off of a games sub number. It doesn't work that way. If a game is pulling profit after 3+ years it is a success; it doesn't matter if they have 120 subs or 120k subs, from a business standpoint it was a success.
Well obviously there's going to be a lot of overlap between those numbers so it's not gonna be 4.7 unique people. But I agree with what you're saying. The fact that EVE has so many subs goes to show how ridiculous some of these claims about viability are. EVE has as much of a harsh ruleset as most people are asking for (in terms of pvp and "looting") and has ENORMOUS barriers to entry in terms of complexity, and it's a success. Many of the people asking for a good sandbox game would be totally happy with EVE except we just prefer fantasy or can't get into space combat or something stylistic like that.
Of course 'vote' with your wallet. It amazes me that people buy games that suck. Still each to their own. If someone can get fun from SWTOR, more power to them.
The idea that companies/developers never listen to consumers seems a little disingenuous though. There are obviously times when they have. How much will a developer listen if I whine about something online? Not at all. How much will they listen if a thousand of us whine? 10,000? A fraction more than not at all perhaps.
Depends on the company/developer.
I suppose everyone who is dissatisfied could just passively wait for the market to magically create what they desire.
Na, we can just take our entertainment dollars elsewhere now.
Music, tv, film, all kinds of art are catering to us with high quality productions. That wasn't so true 10 years ago. Plus the indie scene is great now. There are tons of player mods out.
We don't need to care anymore, we just haven't stopped caring yet. we will.
Do you have a jar in your house labelled entertainment dollars?
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
"I'd really like to read a great book about giant green penguins, if only there was something on the market that catered to my needs. Oh, not to worry, I can listen to this Justin Timberlake CD, which will definitely quench my desire to READ about green penguins. After all, it's all entertainment."
Well obviously there's going to be a lot of overlap between those numbers so it's not gonna be 4.7 unique people. But I agree with what you're saying. The fact that EVE has so many subs goes to show how ridiculous some of these claims about viability are. EVE has as much of a harsh ruleset as most people are asking for (in terms of pvp and "looting") and has ENORMOUS barriers to entry in terms of complexity, and it's a success. Many of the people asking for a good sandbox game would be totally happy with EVE except we just prefer fantasy or can't get into space combat or something stylistic like that.
Over half of Eve's player base sticks to high sec effectively rendering your point about harsh ruleset moot. And how do you know that being the only high quality sandbox out there, people only settle for it because there's nothing better to suit their needs?
The same argument you made about WoW being watered down can be applied to Eve.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This thread angers me because it is so popular and I have to be reminded of the mediocre games of present when all I want in gaming is a time machine to go back and play the amazing mmos of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Well obviously there's going to be a lot of overlap between those numbers so it's not gonna be 4.7 unique people. But I agree with what you're saying. The fact that EVE has so many subs goes to show how ridiculous some of these claims about viability are. EVE has as much of a harsh ruleset as most people are asking for (in terms of pvp and "looting") and has ENORMOUS barriers to entry in terms of complexity, and it's a success. Many of the people asking for a good sandbox game would be totally happy with EVE except we just prefer fantasy or can't get into space combat or something stylistic like that.
Over half of Eve's player base sticks to high sec effectively rendering your point about harsh ruleset moot. And how do you know that being the only high quality sandbox out there, people only settle for it because there's nothing better to suit their needs?
The same argument you made about WoW being watered down can be applied to Eve.
Here we go again.
1. People sticking to high sec has nothing to do with anything. There's less reward in high sec, so it's their loss. They're playing that game. Even in UO, you could stay in town and be almost entirely safe.. it just wasn't very profitable. In DFUW you literally cannot be harmed in towns. So how does it make my point about harsh rulesets moot?
2. They very well may be waiting for a better sandbox. Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The point is, people who say that sandbox games can't succeed are proved wrong by EVE's success. Are you so distraught about your performance in our last tussle that you're projecting its themes into this discussion as well? Because they don't apply.
Originally posted by Baramos79 This thread angers me because it is so popular and I have to be reminded of the mediocre games of present when all I want in gaming is a time machine to go back and play the amazing mmos of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Funny you should bring that up, because that's exactly what I've done, gone back and started playing a version of DAOC that has been set back to around circa 2003.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well obviously there's going to be a lot of overlap between those numbers so it's not gonna be 4.7 unique people. But I agree with what you're saying. The fact that EVE has so many subs goes to show how ridiculous some of these claims about viability are. EVE has as much of a harsh ruleset as most people are asking for (in terms of pvp and "looting") and has ENORMOUS barriers to entry in terms of complexity, and it's a success. Many of the people asking for a good sandbox game would be totally happy with EVE except we just prefer fantasy or can't get into space combat or something stylistic like that.
Over half of Eve's player base sticks to high sec effectively rendering your point about harsh ruleset moot. And how do you know that being the only high quality sandbox out there, people only settle for it because there's nothing better to suit their needs?
The same argument you made about WoW being watered down can be applied to Eve.
Did want to point out that EVE's "safe zone" really isn't safe. Suicide gankers abound, war decs can show up at any moment, I've been killed in high sec more than in 0.0 or low sec.
Toss in scammers, griefers, market manipulators and the like and I'd say EVE has one of the harshest safe zones of any game out there.
Yet the players seem to continue to enjoy it despite it's challenges.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
Didn't companies already stop marketing to core players by plastering "free to play" all over their ads?
Oh, i am already enjoying the market. I don't think whether core players exist affect me at all. It is not like i am socializing with them or anything.
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Yes, I agree on T.V, I think it would be harder to justify the other 'arts' though.
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
UO peaked out at 250k
EVE currently 500k,
EQ 450k+
Asherons call 120k
DAoC 250k
Final Fantasy XI 500k+
Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide
Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide
SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted.
Though I agree with your premise your math assumes that these were individuals who only bought 1 game.
We could also go the other way and assume that every single person who purchased and played UO also did the same for each of the games up there.
That makes that pot of people much smaller. Also we discount the "Star Wars" people who might not have been interested in mmo's per se but they sure loved being in the Star Wars universe. It's very possible that they played SWG and then quit at the large exodus.
I still think there are a great many old school players (myself included) who could easily fund an "old school game" but I don't think that's the way those numbers spin.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Blame whoever you want, but there's plenty of blame on both sides. If a company markets to an audience, they're the ones that have to meet expectations.
Disappointment isn't really that awful, at least when it makes for good jokes. We'll be ok.
Stop giving them money or hype until they cater to us. There is plenty of other companies who want that money. Until then give them silence.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The market isn't confused. The market sees two groups (one huge, one tiny) both of which will give them money if the developer creates a game suited to them. Big surprise that they choose the larger group, satisfying more players and earning more money.
The primary confusion is if players want big-budget games created for niche-sized audiences.
Game budgets fit audience size. You can find plenty of niche-targeted indie games, but they're going to have niche-sized budgets (which rules out many forms of MMOs.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Agreed OP.
Sadly its the fact that the developers are controlled by the publishers and publishers want the biggest audience. The MMO audience now consists of all the FPSers looking for a new competitive game (both PvE and PvP competitiveness). So now we have meters for dps/threat/healing for the PvErs to "optimize" raid performance. Sadly all this leads to is vile and disrespectful community members who care more about themselves rather than overcoming challenges together in a massive multiplayer world.
We, the old MMO players and Role players, are now the minority. Individual gear and stats are more important to these games than the actual content being played. This can be seen in both themeparks and sandboxes. This is a community issue....and sadly won't change in our favor simply because we are the minority and companies want the majority.
Of course 'vote' with your wallet. It amazes me that people buy games that suck. Still each to their own. If someone can get fun from SWTOR, more power to them.
The idea that companies/developers never listen to consumers seems a little disingenuous though. There are obviously times when they have. How much will a developer listen if I whine about something online? Not at all. How much will they listen if a thousand of us whine? 10,000? A fraction more than not at all perhaps.
Depends on the company/developer.
I suppose everyone who is dissatisfied could just passively wait for the market to magically create what they desire.
this video sums up what i feel about a lot of MMORPG coming from its biggest culprit which is shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas
agree 100% with OP, Instant gratification/easy mode/ retard proof really needs to go it is killing the MMORPG genre.
Na, we can just take our entertainment dollars elsewhere now.
Music, tv, film, all kinds of art are catering to us with high quality productions. That wasn't so true 10 years ago. Plus the indie scene is great now. There are tons of player mods out.
We don't need to care anymore, we just haven't stopped caring yet. we will.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Well obviously there's going to be a lot of overlap between those numbers so it's not gonna be 4.7 unique people. But I agree with what you're saying. The fact that EVE has so many subs goes to show how ridiculous some of these claims about viability are. EVE has as much of a harsh ruleset as most people are asking for (in terms of pvp and "looting") and has ENORMOUS barriers to entry in terms of complexity, and it's a success. Many of the people asking for a good sandbox game would be totally happy with EVE except we just prefer fantasy or can't get into space combat or something stylistic like that.
Do you have a jar in your house labelled entertainment dollars?
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
"I'd really like to read a great book about giant green penguins, if only there was something on the market that catered to my needs. Oh, not to worry, I can listen to this Justin Timberlake CD, which will definitely quench my desire to READ about green penguins. After all, it's all entertainment."
What?
Over half of Eve's player base sticks to high sec effectively rendering your point about harsh ruleset moot. And how do you know that being the only high quality sandbox out there, people only settle for it because there's nothing better to suit their needs?
The same argument you made about WoW being watered down can be applied to Eve.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
My YouTube MMO PvP Channel
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Here we go again.
1. People sticking to high sec has nothing to do with anything. There's less reward in high sec, so it's their loss. They're playing that game. Even in UO, you could stay in town and be almost entirely safe.. it just wasn't very profitable. In DFUW you literally cannot be harmed in towns. So how does it make my point about harsh rulesets moot?
2. They very well may be waiting for a better sandbox. Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The point is, people who say that sandbox games can't succeed are proved wrong by EVE's success. Are you so distraught about your performance in our last tussle that you're projecting its themes into this discussion as well? Because they don't apply.
Funny you should bring that up, because that's exactly what I've done, gone back and started playing a version of DAOC that has been set back to around circa 2003.
Good fun.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Did want to point out that EVE's "safe zone" really isn't safe. Suicide gankers abound, war decs can show up at any moment, I've been killed in high sec more than in 0.0 or low sec.
Toss in scammers, griefers, market manipulators and the like and I'd say EVE has one of the harshest safe zones of any game out there.
Yet the players seem to continue to enjoy it despite it's challenges.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Didn't companies already stop marketing to core players by plastering "free to play" all over their ads?
Oh, i am already enjoying the market. I don't think whether core players exist affect me at all. It is not like i am socializing with them or anything.
Yes, I agree on T.V, I think it would be harder to justify the other 'arts' though.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Though I agree with your premise your math assumes that these were individuals who only bought 1 game.
We could also go the other way and assume that every single person who purchased and played UO also did the same for each of the games up there.
That makes that pot of people much smaller. Also we discount the "Star Wars" people who might not have been interested in mmo's per se but they sure loved being in the Star Wars universe. It's very possible that they played SWG and then quit at the large exodus.
I still think there are a great many old school players (myself included) who could easily fund an "old school game" but I don't think that's the way those numbers spin.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
LOL, I've never watched any of those shows......
Great TV eh? Seems like an oxymoron.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon