While I LOVE that this game is coming. I'm gona deliver some tough love and criticise the interview.
"There are three levels in the hierarchy in the game. The one that the whole thing is based on is the squad. The squad is ten people, and the squad will have a squad leader. All the squad leaders can apply to become a strike force leader. Strike forces consist of 100 players."
Alright, this sounds fairly reasonable. My only question here would be are they going to factor in devestator squads? Blood claws? Ravenwing bikers? A squad should have an identical 'type', no? *By type I mean tactical squad vs terminator squad its perfectly fine for one guy in the tactical squad to have a missile launcher and another a plasma gun, problems start to arise though when we have 10 men with plasma guns that just doesn't happen in 40k and would disapoint me to see*
"All of the strike force leaders can apply to be on the war council, which oversees the whole faction. Since we have single server technology, you’re talking about the whole planet being on the same server, so the war councils will control the war effort for a campaign on the continent. There are many different types of campaigns. We have primary campaigns and secondary campaigns with secondary objectives. Campaigns will last between two weeks and three months. The range is there because we don’t know. It depends."
Alright once more this makes sense, so the "Strike Force Leaders" which in ultramarine terms would be a "captain". Can apply to be on the "war council". I guess my question is. Why do they have to apply? I mean, if I'm an Ultramarine Captain or a space wolf Wolf Lord, I think its quite appropriate that I demand a spot on this council. Are you telling me that we'd have to many people on this council if that happened? If so, then wouldn't it be more appropiate to I don't know have chapter masters on the council instead of these captains? In which case I think you need a rank above "Strike Force Leader" because from a fluff perspective it would make 0 sense to exclude a captain from a war council when all the atendees of the war council are captains. If this war council is made of chapter masters then and only then will it make sense to exclude any strike force leader from the council. Again I like this concept, but if your going to have any captains/Strike force leaders enter a war council then you must have ALL captains/strike force leaders be a part of this council otherwise your fluff isn't working out well.
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
On the subject of War Councils and back room dealing the devs said "We don’t participate in that. We create the place, but they decide amongst themselves. So if the Eldar talk to the Orks, and they say, “You know what? Let’s wipe out the Chaos and Space Marine and fight it out with each other at the end.” That’s something that could happen easily in the game. We don’t know if that’s what the players will decide to do, but we’ll give them the tools to do that."
That is a fine example, but these back room deals once more have me concerned. I understand Eldar manipulating Orks, I understand Eldar teaming up with space marines, I understand Chaos manipulating Orks. That's it fluff wise. Any other possible alliances/back room deals are for a lack of eloquent term "Fluff rape". While this is a cool game mechanic, the devs are going to have to interfere and give the players a damn good reason as to why the hell my space marines have called a ceasefire with orks. Even if there are other armies to fight my SM should not care. If I want to stop expanding into Ork territory and want to expand elsewhere then the war council should organize a way to keep borders shared with Orks defended adequately and then send everyone who would've been going on the offense against orks to instead be going on the offense against Eldar, or Chaos. There are ways to work out a ceasfire, but we shouldn't have a literal player agreement between space marines and orks of "Hey I wana wipe out someone else mind not attacking me for a while?". The orks should notice "Hey, space marines have stopped invading our borders, that means most of there offensive men are elsewhere, alright lets either attack them while they're on the pure defense or lets use this opportunity they've given to expand our borders elsewhere".
In summary to the above paragraph. Some potential back-room alliances make no sense and should not be implemented unless you provide us the players with a good cinematic reason for it.
Others have already said concerns over microtransactions wont go into it here.
They also said they'll have 4 factions and a few space marine chapters like wolves, blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines. Well my concern here is, will they be different from one another? Will wolves have thunder wolf cavalry and wolf lords? Will angels have sanguinary guard? Dark angels deathwing actually be different from normal terminators??
The issue I have is that without each chapters unique units I won't actually be playing that chapter. Instead i'll be playing an ultramarine sucsessor chapter that has dark green armor.
Few other concerns I don't feel like posting, these are my personal big ones.
While I LOVE that this game is coming. I'm gona deliver some tough love and criticise the interview.
"There are three levels in the hierarchy in the game. The one that the whole thing is based on is the squad. The squad is ten people, and the squad will have a squad leader. All the squad leaders can apply to become a strike force leader. Strike forces consist of 100 players."
Alright, this sounds fairly reasonable. My only question here would be are they going to factor in devestator squads? Blood claws? Ravenwing bikers? A squad should have an identical 'type', no? *By type I mean tactical squad vs terminator squad its perfectly fine for one guy in the tactical squad to have a missile launcher and another a plasma gun, problems start to arise though when we have 10 men with plasma guns that just doesn't happen in 40k and would disapoint me to see*
well this is an Sandbox mmo so limit the players to much would be wrong and they want that everyone in a squad can play what they want to play.
"All of the strike force leaders can apply to be on the war council, which oversees the whole faction. Since we have single server technology, you’re talking about the whole planet being on the same server, so the war councils will control the war effort for a campaign on the continent. There are many different types of campaigns. We have primary campaigns and secondary campaigns with secondary objectives. Campaigns will last between two weeks and three months. The range is there because we don’t know. It depends."
Alright once more this makes sense, so the "Strike Force Leaders" which in ultramarine terms would be a "captain". Can apply to be on the "war council". I guess my question is. Why do they have to apply? I mean, if I'm an Ultramarine Captain or a space wolf Wolf Lord, I think its quite appropriate that I demand a spot on this council. Are you telling me that we'd have to many people on this council if that happened? If so, then wouldn't it be more appropiate to I don't know have chapter masters on the council instead of these captains? In which case I think you need a rank above "Strike Force Leader" because from a fluff perspective it would make 0 sense to exclude a captain from a war council when all the atendees of the war council are captains. If this war council is made of chapter masters then and only then will it make sense to exclude any strike force leader from the council. Again I like this concept, but if your going to have any captains/Strike force leaders enter a war council then you must have ALL captains/strike force leaders be a part of this council otherwise your fluff isn't working out well.
the strike force commanders can vote for 10 guys who will be the war council and you need to think about that it have to work for all factions, not just space marines
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
lore no but gameplay yes
it would be unfair if some1 is stronger just because he is the leader and would have additional superskills which can kill a whole squad in 1 strike
On the subject of War Councils and back room dealing the devs said "We don’t participate in that. We create the place, but they decide amongst themselves. So if the Eldar talk to the Orks, and they say, “You know what? Let’s wipe out the Chaos and Space Marine and fight it out with each other at the end.” That’s something that could happen easily in the game. We don’t know if that’s what the players will decide to do, but we’ll give them the tools to do that."
That is a fine example, but these back room deals once more have me concerned. I understand Eldar manipulating Orks, I understand Eldar teaming up with space marines, I understand Chaos manipulating Orks. That's it fluff wise. Any other possible alliances/back room deals are for a lack of eloquent term "Fluff rape". While this is a cool game mechanic, the devs are going to have to interfere and give the players a damn good reason as to why the hell my space marines have called a ceasefire with orks. Even if there are other armies to fight my SM should not care. If I want to stop expanding into Ork territory and want to expand elsewhere then the war council should organize a way to keep borders shared with Orks defended adequately and then send everyone who would've been going on the offense against orks to instead be going on the offense against Eldar, or Chaos. There are ways to work out a ceasfire, but we shouldn't have a literal player agreement between space marines and orks of "Hey I wana wipe out someone else mind not attacking me for a while?". The orks should notice "Hey, space marines have stopped invading our borders, that means most of there offensive men are elsewhere, alright lets either attack them while they're on the pure defense or lets use this opportunity they've given to expand our borders elsewhere".
In summary to the above paragraph. Some potential back-room alliances make no sense and should not be implemented unless you provide us the players with a good cinematic reason for it.
there is the sandbox mmo argument again but they said something about unrealistic alliances so maybe you will get what you want
Others have already said concerns over microtransactions wont go into it here.
They also said they'll have 4 factions and a few space marine chapters like wolves, blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines. Well my concern here is, will they be different from one another? Will wolves have thunder wolf cavalry and wolf lords? Will angels have sanguinary guard? Dark angels deathwing actually be different from normal terminators??
there will be differences between chapters and a SW devastator would be a longfang they already said
The issue I have is that without each chapters unique units I won't actually be playing that chapter. Instead i'll be playing an ultramarine sucsessor chapter that has dark green armor.
the customisation colors will be limited to the chapters colors
Few other concerns I don't feel like posting, these are my personal big ones.
"well this is an Sandbox mmo so limit the players to much would be wrong and they want that everyone in a squad can play what they want to play."
What we cant just place those players into a squad of other players who want to be like that? I mean its fine if you want to be an assault marine, but it'd be awkward to have 4 tactical 3 assault and 2 terminators in the same squad (not to mention be an injustice to fluff)
the strike force commanders can vote for 10 guys who will be the war council and you need to think about that it have to work for all factions, not just space marines
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
lore no but gameplay yes
it would be unfair if some1 is stronger just because he is the leader and would have additional superskills which can kill a whole squad in 1 strike
I believe you misunderstood. My question is will a captain be better then me because he is a captain. Or is he a captain because he is better than me? If it is the latter that would be disapointing.
there is the sandbox mmo argument again but they said something about unrealistic alliances so maybe you will get what you want
I don't mind unrealistic alliances if its explained by devs. :P
Others have already said concerns over microtransactions wont go into it here.
They also said they'll have 4 factions and a few space marine chapters like wolves, blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines. Well my concern here is, will they be different from one another? Will wolves have thunder wolf cavalry and wolf lords? Will angels have sanguinary guard? Dark angels deathwing actually be different from normal terminators??
there will be differences between chapters and a SW devastator would be a longfang they already said
I didn't see them mention that. Must've over looked it.
The issue I have is that without each chapters unique units I won't actually be playing that chapter. Instead i'll be playing an ultramarine sucsessor chapter that has dark green armor.
the customisation colors will be limited to the chapters colors
Not My point. My point was that Dark Angels had to have there unique units otherwise you wouldn't really be playing as Dark Angels but rather as ultramarines wearing dark green.
While I LOVE that this game is coming. I'm gona deliver some tough love and criticise the interview.
"There are three levels in the hierarchy in the game. The one that the whole thing is based on is the squad. The squad is ten people, and the squad will have a squad leader. All the squad leaders can apply to become a strike force leader. Strike forces consist of 100 players."
Alright, this sounds fairly reasonable. My only question here would be are they going to factor in devestator squads? Blood claws? Ravenwing bikers? A squad should have an identical 'type', no? *By type I mean tactical squad vs terminator squad its perfectly fine for one guy in the tactical squad to have a missile launcher and another a plasma gun, problems start to arise though when we have 10 men with plasma guns that just doesn't happen in 40k and would disapoint me to see*
This is up to the squad and the squad leader who is there and who is not. lets say you are the 'captain' of your squad, if you want that they wear the equipment you want them to wear, it's your responsibility to enforce it, and if your men trust you and like your leadership, they will do what you say. The game won't enforce a player of what 'class' or 'equipment' he wants to play.
"All of the strike force leaders can apply to be on the war council, which oversees the whole faction. Since we have single server technology, you’re talking about the whole planet being on the same server, so the war councils will control the war effort for a campaign on the continent. There are many different types of campaigns. We have primary campaigns and secondary campaigns with secondary objectives. Campaigns will last between two weeks and three months. The range is there because we don’t know. It depends."
Alright once more this makes sense, so the "Strike Force Leaders" which in ultramarine terms would be a "captain". Can apply to be on the "war council". I guess my question is. Why do they have to apply? I mean, if I'm an Ultramarine Captain or a space wolf Wolf Lord, I think its quite appropriate that I demand a spot on this council. Are you telling me that we'd have to many people on this council if that happened? If so, then wouldn't it be more appropiate to I don't know have chapter masters on the council instead of these captains? In which case I think you need a rank above "Strike Force Leader" because from a fluff perspective it would make 0 sense to exclude a captain from a war council when all the atendees of the war council are captains. If this war council is made of chapter masters then and only then will it make sense to exclude any strike force leader from the council. Again I like this concept, but if your going to have any captains/Strike force leaders enter a war council then you must have ALL captains/strike force leaders be a part of this council otherwise your fluff isn't working out well.
Well again, it will be up to the player to decide who is on the war council, we are probably looking at different 'ranks' or repsonsibilities on the council, but in general there will be some way (depending also on the faction) on how to be elected to the war council. this is not only about 'i am the leader of a clan, i should be on the council' it's also about other clans trusting you, you will have a lot of power and make decisions for a lot of players, you first have to earn their trust !!!
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
Captains won't be superheroes, but they will have the powers to command other players in their team (squad, strikeforce) - but again, it's up to the players to follow him or not. as you might know, orks don't always do what their boss is telling them
On the subject of War Councils and back room dealing the devs said "We don’t participate in that. We create the place, but they decide amongst themselves. So if the Eldar talk to the Orks, and they say, “You know what? Let’s wipe out the Chaos and Space Marine and fight it out with each other at the end.” That’s something that could happen easily in the game. We don’t know if that’s what the players will decide to do, but we’ll give them the tools to do that."
That is a fine example, but these back room deals once more have me concerned. I understand Eldar manipulating Orks, I understand Eldar teaming up with space marines, I understand Chaos manipulating Orks. That's it fluff wise. Any other possible alliances/back room deals are for a lack of eloquent term "Fluff rape". While this is a cool game mechanic, the devs are going to have to interfere and give the players a damn good reason as to why the hell my space marines have called a ceasefire with orks. Even if there are other armies to fight my SM should not care. If I want to stop expanding into Ork territory and want to expand elsewhere then the war council should organize a way to keep borders shared with Orks defended adequately and then send everyone who would've been going on the offense against orks to instead be going on the offense against Eldar, or Chaos. There are ways to work out a ceasfire, but we shouldn't have a literal player agreement between space marines and orks of "Hey I wana wipe out someone else mind not attacking me for a while?". The orks should notice "Hey, space marines have stopped invading our borders, that means most of there offensive men are elsewhere, alright lets either attack them while they're on the pure defense or lets use this opportunity they've given to expand our borders elsewhere".
well who is to decide this? you? in that case get on the war council and do that, if other player think that it's not a fluff, than it will be their decision, and since they are on the council they can decide - for you that would mean, do what they say, or don't, up to you. just because someone above you makes a pact, does not mean you have to follow it. on the otherhand you won't benefit from it either then
In summary to the above paragraph. Some potential back-room alliances make no sense and should not be implemented unless you provide us the players with a good cinematic reason for it.
How about you write your own story - coz that is what this game is above, we won't tell you what to do in Eternal Crusade, you will decide your own fate, and if you get on the warcouncil even the fate of a lot of other players!!! Bring your own story to the game, make it the game you want to play!
Others have already said concerns over microtransactions wont go into it here.
thats ok, there will always be different opinions about them - the simple fact is, you can play this game for free if you choose to, but let the others who want to pay for the service and the work we do to do so.
They also said they'll have 4 factions and a few space marine chapters like wolves, blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines. Well my concern here is, will they be different from one another? Will wolves have thunder wolf cavalry and wolf lords? Will angels have sanguinary guard? Dark angels deathwing actually be different from normal terminators??
The issue I have is that without each chapters unique units I won't actually be playing that chapter. Instead i'll be playing an ultramarine sucsessor chapter that has dark green armor.
We plan to have faction specific weapons, armor, classes, and many other things. nothing is set in stone and can't make promises what will make it for launch, but i am sure that you would find the right fit for your needs and expectations - we are fans of wh40k ourselves, this is what matters a lot to us too!
Few other concerns I don't feel like posting, these are my personal big ones.
thx for mentioning your concerns, I think it's very important to raise these questions, and even though we are very early in development I just want to say that we take them serious. But understand, we are making a game for fans, we want to make it fun to play and want everyone to enjoy it as much as possible. Sometimes, because it's a game, we cannot make everything 100% true to lore, or similar to the table top or the books. but we will capture the essence and make sure that this will become the biggest and best game to play in the warhammer 40k universe.
Patrick Balthazar Tech Lead - Behaviour Online Lead Programmer - Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade www.EternalCrusade.com - #eternalcrusade - @lordpada
While I LOVE that this game is coming. I'm gona deliver some tough love and criticise the interview.
"There are three levels in the hierarchy in the game. The one that the whole thing is based on is the squad. The squad is ten people, and the squad will have a squad leader. All the squad leaders can apply to become a strike force leader. Strike forces consist of 100 players."
Alright, this sounds fairly reasonable. My only question here would be are they going to factor in devestator squads? Blood claws? Ravenwing bikers? A squad should have an identical 'type', no? *By type I mean tactical squad vs terminator squad its perfectly fine for one guy in the tactical squad to have a missile launcher and another a plasma gun, problems start to arise though when we have 10 men with plasma guns that just doesn't happen in 40k and would disapoint me to see*
This is up to the squad and the squad leader who is there and who is not. lets say you are the 'captain' of your squad, if you want that they wear the equipment you want them to wear, it's your responsibility to enforce it, and if your men trust you and like your leadership, they will do what you say. The game won't enforce a player of what 'class' or 'equipment' he wants to play.
I understand that the game should not dictate what the player has to play. However, I guess my question was more along the lines of, "Why is it that were having such a diverse team in one squad? It would make any ultramarine cringe. In addition, I fully agree player choice is important, but why not place individuals with similar load outs in the same squad? (I.e 10 tactical marine, sure they have different weapons but they're tactical marines, or 10 terminators who again have different weapons but are still 'terminators') If Its for the sake of gameplay I understand, but just feels wrong
"All of the strike force leaders can apply to be on the war council, which oversees the whole faction. Since we have single server technology, you’re talking about the whole planet being on the same server, so the war councils will control the war effort for a campaign on the continent. There are many different types of campaigns. We have primary campaigns and secondary campaigns with secondary objectives. Campaigns will last between two weeks and three months. The range is there because we don’t know. It depends."
Alright once more this makes sense, so the "Strike Force Leaders" which in ultramarine terms would be a "captain". Can apply to be on the "war council". I guess my question is. Why do they have to apply? I mean, if I'm an Ultramarine Captain or a space wolf Wolf Lord, I think its quite appropriate that I demand a spot on this council. Are you telling me that we'd have to many people on this council if that happened? If so, then wouldn't it be more appropiate to I don't know have chapter masters on the council instead of these captains? In which case I think you need a rank above "Strike Force Leader" because from a fluff perspective it would make 0 sense to exclude a captain from a war council when all the atendees of the war council are captains. If this war council is made of chapter masters then and only then will it make sense to exclude any strike force leader from the council. Again I like this concept, but if your going to have any captains/Strike force leaders enter a war council then you must have ALL captains/strike force leaders be a part of this council otherwise your fluff isn't working out well.
Well again, it will be up to the player to decide who is on the war council, we are probably looking at different 'ranks' or repsonsibilities on the council, but in general there will be some way (depending also on the faction) on how to be elected to the war council. this is not only about 'i am the leader of a clan, i should be on the council' it's also about other clans trusting you, you will have a lot of power and make decisions for a lot of players, you first have to earn their trust !!!
Missed my point, (I must suck at being concise)Essentially my question boils down to: From a fluff perspective leaders of 100 marines would automatically be in council, unless it was an interchapter affair, in which case it would be the chapter masters (Leaders of 1k marines). Will a narritive reason be provided to us as to why captains are not involved? Or is it just that "Hey this is a really cool piece of gameplay at the expense of the fluff" I can roll with that I guess.
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
Captains won't be superheroes, but they will have the powers to command other players in their team (squad, strikeforce) - but again, it's up to the players to follow him or not. as you might know, orks don't always do what their boss is telling them
Not asking em to be super hero's. I mean look at the minatures a captain tends to have some fancier looking weapons, power swords and the like. How does one become a leader of 100, by applying to it if there a sergeant? How to apply to being a sergeant? What criteria determines someone becoming a captain. Are you telling me the guy who has nothing but a bolter could be a captain? Again, not asking for them to be super hero's i'm asking if they will look the role that they're in.
On the subject of War Councils and back room dealing the devs said "We don’t participate in that. We create the place, but they decide amongst themselves. So if the Eldar talk to the Orks, and they say, “You know what? Let’s wipe out the Chaos and Space Marine and fight it out with each other at the end.” That’s something that could happen easily in the game. We don’t know if that’s what the players will decide to do, but we’ll give them the tools to do that."
That is a fine example, but these back room deals once more have me concerned. I understand Eldar manipulating Orks, I understand Eldar teaming up with space marines, I understand Chaos manipulating Orks. That's it fluff wise. Any other possible alliances/back room deals are for a lack of eloquent term "Fluff rape". While this is a cool game mechanic, the devs are going to have to interfere and give the players a damn good reason as to why the hell my space marines have called a ceasefire with orks. Even if there are other armies to fight my SM should not care. If I want to stop expanding into Ork territory and want to expand elsewhere then the war council should organize a way to keep borders shared with Orks defended adequately and then send everyone who would've been going on the offense against orks to instead be going on the offense against Eldar, or Chaos. There are ways to work out a ceasfire, but we shouldn't have a literal player agreement between space marines and orks of "Hey I wana wipe out someone else mind not attacking me for a while?". The orks should notice "Hey, space marines have stopped invading our borders, that means most of there offensive men are elsewhere, alright lets either attack them while they're on the pure defense or lets use this opportunity they've given to expand our borders elsewhere".
well who is to decide this? you? in that case get on the war council and do that, if other player think that it's not a fluff, than it will be their decision, and since they are on the council they can decide - for you that would mean, do what they say, or don't, up to you. just because someone above you makes a pact, does not mean you have to follow it. on the otherhand you won't benefit from it either then
Dang it, I guess I fleshed out my example to much. In short my question is: Will the devs provide a narritive reason for space marines to call a ceasfire with Orks, because without a reason given to us it would make 0 sense fluff wise. However, if it's for the sake of gameplay. Ok I guess.
In summary to the above paragraph. Some potential back-room alliances make no sense and should not be implemented unless you provide us the players with a good cinematic reason for it.
How about you write your own story - coz that is what this game is above, we won't tell you what to do in Eternal Crusade, you will decide your own fate, and if you get on the warcouncil even the fate of a lot of other players!!! Bring your own story to the game, make it the game you want to play!
Do you know one of the (many) reasons the 40k game is so loved? The story in it. In the rulebook there are about 100 pages of intimidating rules, followed by a ton of story. Giving us this general story allowed players to work within the story and make up there own. My question is will you be like the rulebook and give us a potential, but vague enough story that would allow players to work within this framework of a story to cause SM to ally with Orks and because of the story you've given us it still make sense fluff wise.
Others have already said concerns over microtransactions wont go into it here.
thats ok, there will always be different opinions about them - the simple fact is, you can play this game for free if you choose to, but let the others who want to pay for the service and the work we do to do so.
Hey, if the content your selling piques my interest i'll buy it :P
They also said they'll have 4 factions and a few space marine chapters like wolves, blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines. Well my concern here is, will they be different from one another? Will wolves have thunder wolf cavalry and wolf lords? Will angels have sanguinary guard? Dark angels deathwing actually be different from normal terminators??
The issue I have is that without each chapters unique units I won't actually be playing that chapter. Instead i'll be playing an ultramarine sucsessor chapter that has dark green armor.
We plan to have faction specific weapons, armor, classes, and many other things. nothing is set in stone and can't make promises what will make it for launch, but i am sure that you would find the right fit for your needs and expectations - we are fans of wh40k ourselves, this is what matters a lot to us too!
Alrighty! I'm not sure if you guys have it on you but each chapters codex has some interesting units! (Space marines riding giant wolves looks cool as heck!)
Few other concerns I don't feel like posting, these are my personal big ones.
thx for mentioning your concerns, I think it's very important to raise these questions, and even though we are very early in development I just want to say that we take them serious. But understand, we are making a game for fans, we want to make it fun to play and want everyone to enjoy it as much as possible. Sometimes, because it's a game, we cannot make everything 100% true to lore, or similar to the table top or the books. but we will capture the essence and make sure that this will become the biggest and best game to play in the warhammer 40k universe.
I fully understand the inability to make it 100% true to the lore. The biggest one there (imo) is making sure each chapter is done justice and has there unique flavor otherwise, whats the point; eh? Btw, I seriously love you guys. Like seriously love you guys for making this game. Even if it were 60% true to the lore with solid gameplay, I'd still be happy to play this. Just, if you do care about the lore....I'm sure you can understand the idea of the Ultramarines breaking the codex astrates is enough to make me concerned that this wont be 60% true to the fluff.
Edit: Especially since when a captain of the ultramarines did break the codex Marneus Calgar exiled him to Cadia for 20 years.
Having every sergeant or Captain member of the War council, would mean that everyone and their mom would make small guilds, just to get the tittle and get into council, and with amount of trolls and griefers in todays game it would make the War council completely useless in making any kind of tactical decisions and orders.
For now from what we picked up from interviews and devs, If you get 10 players together you can combine your ships and make a small attack ship, and one of you (guild leader) would become sergeant. If you have more people and more squads, you would get chapter master, (if i understood correctly chapter masters are available if you have 2 or more squads). Making requirement to have 1000 Players in guild and full blown command hierarchy to get Chapter master, would be really hard to achieve and organize.
So then every guild can apply the guild leader to be member of Warcouncil, (they didnt give any numbers but i expect the council to be 5-15, anything bigger would make it inefective), then the whole faction votes who gets into council. So those 5-15 people are then gonna be able to give out orders on some kind of tactical Map, (if you listen to the orders you will get more XP/Requisition than if you just go on solo roam), also the members of War council are gonna be able to use Faction requisition points to deploy some special stuff (perhaps giving special powers to an SM proclaiming him Champion (or when we get Sisters of Battle in game proclaiming one of them a Living saint) ... or have some special vehicles they can deploy....).
When making a game, it it impossible in universe such as 40k to be 100% accurate with lore/fluff, so be reasonable people, it is a rich universe with endless possibilities, but some things are gonna have to be sacrificed to make the rest of the game work. So be patient, and help devs with reasonable request not just Copy/Paste stuff from codex, cause that stuff works on TT, this is gonna be a living/breathing world, that we can influence. So some deviations are necessary!
I understand that the game should not dictate what the player has to play. However, I guess my question was more along the lines of, "Why is it that were having such a diverse team in one squad? It would make any ultramarine cringe. In addition, I fully agree player choice is important, but why not place individuals with similar load outs in the same squad? (I.e 10 tactical marine, sure they have different weapons but they're tactical marines, or 10 terminators who again have different weapons but are still 'terminators') If Its for the sake of gameplay I understand, but just feels wrong
ok, let's just for argument sake we take you and your 9 best friends create a squad. You take the lead position, you are UltraMarines and you want to go and have fun in the game. What if 2 of you friends say, they don't want to play a Tactical Marine, but instead want to be a Terminator - it's going to be your choice to allow that or just kick them from the squad. Yes, we are not true to fluff and all here, but putting restrictions would harm fun, because we take away the choice from players. On the other hand I am sure there will be some guilds who will be very true to lore and fluff and impose rules on their member to do so too. From game perspective we as devs probably won't explain why this can happen, but we are given our own solar system from Games Workshop, we can create our own story and reasons, and we want the players to be part of that!
Missed my point, (I must suck at being concise)Essentially my question boils down to: From a fluff perspective leaders of 100 marines would automatically be in council, unless it was an interchapter affair, in which case it would be the chapter masters (Leaders of 1k marines). Will a narritive reason be provided to us as to why captains are not involved? Or is it just that "Hey this is a really cool piece of gameplay at the expense of the fluff" I can roll with that I guess.
I think I missunderstood, but I'll try again - the reason is simple why not everyone can be on the warcouncil - like in politics, the more people, the less gets done. Finding the right amount of leaders for the whole factions is essential, maybe we even introduce some sort of sub leaders, chapter leaders, or something. And just because you create a clan and find 100 people to join you does not give you the right to give commands to everyone on the server - you need to earn that right. we will provide some sort of story behind that system, but again, it will be up to the players to follow it or not.
Not asking em to be super hero's. I mean look at the minatures a captain tends to have some fancier looking weapons, power swords and the like. How does one become a leader of 100, by applying to it if there a sergeant? How to apply to being a sergeant? What criteria determines someone becoming a captain. Are you telling me the guy who has nothing but a bolter could be a captain? Again, not asking for them to be super hero's i'm asking if they will look the role that they're in.
there will be definitely something to make a 'leader' visually different from normal players, they might even get a few extra skills, but nothing that will make them superheroes, in general, the game and the progressing will be about skill diversity, not about leveling up you skills and creating a character which is 100 times stronger than everyone else when they start.
To become a leader of 100 players (strike force) you will have to find 100 players who want you to be their leader. for one it will be similar to creating a guild like in any rpg, you create the guild and recruit players. or you find 10 squads and join them together, and decide within them who is going to be the leader.
I can think of a few other options, but I guess you get my point.
Dang it, I guess I fleshed out my example to much. In short my question is: Will the devs provide a narritive reason for space marines to call a ceasfire with Orks, because without a reason given to us it would make 0 sense fluff wise. However, if it's for the sake of gameplay. Ok I guess.
No - that's up to the players. If the players decide to, they can come up with a reason, as devs we will just make sure, that it is possible and the game mechanics allow for it.
Do you know one of the (many) reasons the 40k game is so loved? The story in it. In the rulebook there are about 100 pages of intimidating rules, followed by a ton of story. Giving us this general story allowed players to work within the story and make up there own. My question is will you be like the rulebook and give us a potential, but vague enough story that would allow players to work within this framework of a story to cause SM to ally with Orks and because of the story you've given us it still make sense fluff wise.
Yes we will give a story to what happend and whats going on the planet, but once the game goes live, the story told is the one the players 'play' and 'tell' themselves. We don't want to provide a framework (not exactly sure how you meant this), but rather give you an introduction to what is going on on that planet, and why the fight started. if you start playing the game 3 month after launch, the players might have turned the story already to something that is essentially very different from the introduction story we created.
I fully understand the inability to make it 100% true to the lore. The biggest one there (imo) is making sure each chapter is done justice and has there unique flavor otherwise, whats the point; eh? Btw, I seriously love you guys. Like seriously love you guys for making this game. Even if it were 60% true to the lore with solid gameplay, I'd still be happy to play this. Just, if you do care about the lore....I'm sure you can understand the idea of the Ultramarines breaking the codex astrates is enough to make me concerned that this wont be 60% true to the fluff.
Like we always said - we want a great fun game, we want to make it so that every fan of the wh40k universe can have fun playing this game. Staying true to the lore and making sure everything makes sense - sure, but always keeping in mind - first make it fun, then only everything else. We have a lot of true fans here in the dev team, some of them for more than 20 years - we love the world, the story, everything about it. we play the tabletop multiple times a week - we get our inspirations from many sources, and just last week a few of us where at GamesDay in UK to be there with GamesWorkshop.
We want a great game ourselves - you might say we want to make a game for you and us! We want to play it too!
Edit: Especially since when a captain of the ultramarines did break the codex Marneus Calgar exiled him to Cadia for 20 years.
We'll, maybe we will have some mechanic to exile someone too - is somewhat actually a nice idea, I'll talk to the game designers about it
Patrick Balthazar Tech Lead - Behaviour Online Lead Programmer - Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade www.EternalCrusade.com - #eternalcrusade - @lordpada
I understand that the game should not dictate what the player has to play. However, I guess my question was more along the lines of, "Why is it that were having such a diverse team in one squad? It would make any ultramarine cringe. In addition, I fully agree player choice is important, but why not place individuals with similar load outs in the same squad? (I.e 10 tactical marine, sure they have different weapons but they're tactical marines, or 10 terminators who again have different weapons but are still 'terminators') If Its for the sake of gameplay I understand, but just feels wrong
ok, let's just for argument sake we take you and your 9 best friends create a squad. You take the lead position, you are UltraMarines and you want to go and have fun in the game. What if 2 of you friends say, they don't want to play a Tactical Marine, but instead want to be a Terminator - it's going to be your choice to allow that or just kick them from the squad. Yes, we are not true to fluff and all here, but putting restrictions would harm fun, because we take away the choice from players. On the other hand I am sure there will be some guilds who will be very true to lore and fluff and impose rules on their member to do so too. From game perspective we as devs probably won't explain why this can happen, but we are given our own solar system from Games Workshop, we can create our own story and reasons, and we want the players to be part of that!
Alright. I understand the sacrifice Lore-wise so that the gameplay can be more fun. It's reasonable.
Missed my point, (I must suck at being concise)Essentially my question boils down to: From a fluff perspective leaders of 100 marines would automatically be in council, unless it was an interchapter affair, in which case it would be the chapter masters (Leaders of 1k marines). Will a narritive reason be provided to us as to why captains are not involved? Or is it just that "Hey this is a really cool piece of gameplay at the expense of the fluff" I can roll with that I guess.
I think I missunderstood, but I'll try again - the reason is simple why not everyone can be on the warcouncil - like in politics, the more people, the less gets done. Finding the right amount of leaders for the whole factions is essential, maybe we even introduce some sort of sub leaders, chapter leaders, or something. And just because you create a clan and find 100 people to join you does not give you the right to give commands to everyone on the server - you need to earn that right. we will provide some sort of story behind that system, but again, it will be up to the players to follow it or not.
Alright, I can roll with that.
Not asking em to be super hero's. I mean look at the minatures a captain tends to have some fancier looking weapons, power swords and the like. How does one become a leader of 100, by applying to it if there a sergeant? How to apply to being a sergeant? What criteria determines someone becoming a captain. Are you telling me the guy who has nothing but a bolter could be a captain? Again, not asking for them to be super hero's i'm asking if they will look the role that they're in.
there will be definitely something to make a 'leader' visually different from normal players, they might even get a few extra skills, but nothing that will make them superheroes, in general, the game and the progressing will be about skill diversity, not about leveling up you skills and creating a character which is 100 times stronger than everyone else when they start.
To become a leader of 100 players (strike force) you will have to find 100 players who want you to be their leader. for one it will be similar to creating a guild like in any rpg, you create the guild and recruit players. or you find 10 squads and join them together, and decide within them who is going to be the leader.
I can think of a few other options, but I guess you get my point.
Sounds cool to me.
Dang it, I guess I fleshed out my example to much. In short my question is: Will the devs provide a narritive reason for space marines to call a ceasfire with Orks, because without a reason given to us it would make 0 sense fluff wise. However, if it's for the sake of gameplay. Ok I guess.
No - that's up to the players. If the players decide to, they can come up with a reason, as devs we will just make sure, that it is possible and the game mechanics allow for it.
Aww
I find the concept really cool, the "aww" is more for the lack of devs to provide a narritive. But, then again making up your own narritive reason sounds nice. Hopefully it works out well!
Do you know one of the (many) reasons the 40k game is so loved? The story in it. In the rulebook there are about 100 pages of intimidating rules, followed by a ton of story. Giving us this general story allowed players to work within the story and make up there own. My question is will you be like the rulebook and give us a potential, but vague enough story that would allow players to work within this framework of a story to cause SM to ally with Orks and because of the story you've given us it still make sense fluff wise.
Yes we will give a story to what happend and whats going on the planet, but once the game goes live, the story told is the one the players 'play' and 'tell' themselves. We don't want to provide a framework (not exactly sure how you meant this), but rather give you an introduction to what is going on on that planet, and why the fight started. if you start playing the game 3 month after launch, the players might have turned the story already to something that is essentially very different from the introduction story we created.
All of that sounds cool, but wouldn't that confuse the new guy? I mean he jumps in expecting to go to war with three factions until someone finally tells him "Oh na bro, Chaos is leaving us Orks alone so lets go fight some Eldar". framework was a poor word to choose. The question I was trying to ask is "Will you give us a starting narritive that can explain why two factions who would never ceasfire (such as SM and Orks) to ceasfire."
I fully understand the inability to make it 100% true to the lore. The biggest one there (imo) is making sure each chapter is done justice and has there unique flavor otherwise, whats the point; eh? Btw, I seriously love you guys. Like seriously love you guys for making this game. Even if it were 60% true to the lore with solid gameplay, I'd still be happy to play this. Just, if you do care about the lore....I'm sure you can understand the idea of the Ultramarines breaking the codex astrates is enough to make me concerned that this wont be 60% true to the fluff.
Like we always said - we want a great fun game, we want to make it so that every fan of the wh40k universe can have fun playing this game. Staying true to the lore and making sure everything makes sense - sure, but always keeping in mind - first make it fun, then only everything else. We have a lot of true fans here in the dev team, some of them for more than 20 years - we love the world, the story, everything about it. we play the tabletop multiple times a week - we get our inspirations from many sources, and just last week a few of us where at GamesDay in UK to be there with GamesWorkshop.
We want a great game ourselves - you might say we want to make a game for you and us! We want to play it too!
Sounds good to me.
Edit: Especially since when a captain of the ultramarines did break the codex Marneus Calgar exiled him to Cadia for 20 years.
We'll, maybe we will have some mechanic to exile someone too - is somewhat actually a nice idea, I'll talk to the game designers about it
O_O
I swear I haven't seen this kind of amazing dev team in what feels like forever!
All of that sounds cool, but wouldn't that confuse the new guy? I mean he jumps in expecting to go to war with three factions until someone finally tells him "Oh na bro, Chaos is leaving us Orks alone so lets go fight some Eldar". framework was a poor word to choose. The question I was trying to ask is "Will you give us a starting narritive that can explain why two factions who would never ceasfire (such as SM and Orks) to ceasfire."
A lot of the factions can be allies with each other even in the TT. Space Marines can be allies of convenience/desperate allies with Orks and Eldar; Orks can be desperate allies/allies of convenience with everyone except Blood Angels and Black Templars, and Chaos according to the lore can be desperate allies with Orks. I'd imagine being stuck on a planet with 3 other factions could make some interesting bed mates.
Yes they can be desperate allies. DoW I had a good Ork+Chaos team up. The thing is instances of a SM+Ork team up/ceasefire are rare. As a result I was wondering if they will set up the initial narritive in a way where a SM+Ork Desperate alliance could seem reasonable.
Originally posted by decinator27 Yes they can be desperate allies. DoW I had a good Ork+Chaos team up. The thing is instances of a SM+Ork team up/ceasefire are rare. As a result I was wondering if they will set up the initial narritive in a way where a SM+Ork Desperate alliance could seem reasonable.
some inquisitor can "use" ork and "ask" space marine to not shoot orks.
well i think orks and space marines will probably be the two larger factions so there probably wont really be a need for them to team up but i could be wrong
Originally posted by d0gz1lla Yeah guess nobody likes the pay for better weapon...Still we will see how that pans out, either way i got no problem if someone will have a "little" advantage over guys who started off whit no cash to invest. A little bit of hard work and its all fine.But you guys didnt even comment on the 1000 vs 1000 players, that thing is huge, i played Eve online where battles of large scale happened and it was epic, cant imagine how epic this sounds....Total hard on, for a guy like me lol. Just hope the whole system + computers will be able to handle it. Becouse lag, that can kill the whole concept if it wont be stable enough.
Check out PLanetside 2, they 1K vs 1k off real well. Getting that many players to show up is a different story, but they have some truly big fights.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Originally posted by TiamatRoar In a 3rd person 3D twitch-gaming (action) based title with presumably decent graphics, how is it possible to have 2,000 players in the same area without... I dunno, the servers and everyones' computers exploding? This is a game that's supposed to be just as playable and action-packed as your typical FPS game or Space Marine or whatever else, not some game with a bunch of chibis smacking each other in timed hits using RNG to determine hit or miss. Right now FPS games can't even get past like, 4-8 players per team in the same battle now, let alone 50 or 100 or ONE THOUSAND.Is that even feasible to have 2,000 + players on the same battlefield? I'm pretty sure I got the context of that "2,000 players" statement right because an example in the interview implied all of them being in the same area and battle at the same time...
Planetside 2 does this a lot. There are other games out there as well, but PS2 is probably the biggest at the moment.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Let’s say you go to a high-level dungeon, and the reward at the end is a very powerful sword. But maybe you don’t have the time or you don’t want to do that dungeon, or you don’t want to grind. You want to go right into the shop and buy a sword. The golden rule that we found that makes everybody happy is the sword that you buy in the cash shop is twenty percent less powerful than the sword that you grind and work your ass off for. And that twenty percent difference in power is what makes the really dedicated player want to work for it because he knows that his sword is better because he worked for it. But the guy who bought his sword is happy because the sword he bought is at least thirty percent more powerful than the sword he had before, and he understands that the other guy has a more powerful sword because he actually worked for it. So that aspect is going to be even more important in Eternal Crusade because it’s a PVP game. So fairness and balance is important there, too. So the pay to win factor is going to be something that’s going to be looked at very seriously to make sure that nothing creeps into the game that allows that.
i don't like the part of the buyable sword.
ya i think its an example
but sounds like minor P2W but you cant pay to be the best but to be better then other beginners
Minor? 80% from a powerful sword, is minor? I am sure that the "powerful sword" is not a 100% drop at the end of the dungeon.
I am amused as how some people defend a clearly P2W game.
Umm if you know how to read english..he was using an example, but for clarities sake so you can understand..he was comparing stats to the same sword , one from drop versus one from cash shop.....So if you get the drop you actually get the stronger wep.
And has been pointed out..This is not set in stone( I mean stat wise) so it could be that the "lower tier" sword is actually the same as the cash bought one.
if you like Ultramarines I absolutly recommend it, Graham McNeill is one of the best BL writers, the stories themselves are quite awesome, and he manages to make the smurfs likeable instead of mary sues.
Comments
While I LOVE that this game is coming. I'm gona deliver some tough love and criticise the interview.
"No. The groups are more of an organization for social interaction, but we don’t give them additional powers."
I need clarification here. Are you telling me the captain doesn't have additional powers because he's a captain, but rather his additional powers are what make him a captain. Or are you telling me that the captain is no different from myself. If its the latter that makes 0 sense fluff wise.
On the subject of War Councils and back room dealing the devs said "We don’t participate in that. We create the place, but they decide amongst themselves. So if the Eldar talk to the Orks, and they say, “You know what? Let’s wipe out the Chaos and Space Marine and fight it out with each other at the end.” That’s something that could happen easily in the game. We don’t know if that’s what the players will decide to do, but we’ll give them the tools to do that."be always up to date about Eternal Crusade
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thx for mentioning your concerns, I think it's very important to raise these questions, and even though we are very early in development I just want to say that we take them serious. But understand, we are making a game for fans, we want to make it fun to play and want everyone to enjoy it as much as possible. Sometimes, because it's a game, we cannot make everything 100% true to lore, or similar to the table top or the books. but we will capture the essence and make sure that this will become the biggest and best game to play in the warhammer 40k universe.
Patrick Balthazar
Tech Lead - Behaviour Online
Lead Programmer - Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
www.EternalCrusade.com - #eternalcrusade - @lordpada
I fully understand the inability to make it 100% true to the lore. The biggest one there (imo) is making sure each chapter is done justice and has there unique flavor otherwise, whats the point; eh? Btw, I seriously love you guys. Like seriously love you guys for making this game. Even if it were 60% true to the lore with solid gameplay, I'd still be happy to play this. Just, if you do care about the lore....I'm sure you can understand the idea of the Ultramarines breaking the codex astrates is enough to make me concerned that this wont be 60% true to the fluff.
Edit: Especially since when a captain of the ultramarines did break the codex Marneus Calgar exiled him to Cadia for 20 years.
Having every sergeant or Captain member of the War council, would mean that everyone and their mom would make small guilds, just to get the tittle and get into council, and with amount of trolls and griefers in todays game it would make the War council completely useless in making any kind of tactical decisions and orders.
For now from what we picked up from interviews and devs, If you get 10 players together you can combine your ships and make a small attack ship, and one of you (guild leader) would become sergeant. If you have more people and more squads, you would get chapter master, (if i understood correctly chapter masters are available if you have 2 or more squads). Making requirement to have 1000 Players in guild and full blown command hierarchy to get Chapter master, would be really hard to achieve and organize.
So then every guild can apply the guild leader to be member of Warcouncil, (they didnt give any numbers but i expect the council to be 5-15, anything bigger would make it inefective), then the whole faction votes who gets into council. So those 5-15 people are then gonna be able to give out orders on some kind of tactical Map, (if you listen to the orders you will get more XP/Requisition than if you just go on solo roam), also the members of War council are gonna be able to use Faction requisition points to deploy some special stuff (perhaps giving special powers to an SM proclaiming him Champion (or when we get Sisters of Battle in game proclaiming one of them a Living saint) ... or have some special vehicles they can deploy....).
When making a game, it it impossible in universe such as 40k to be 100% accurate with lore/fluff, so be reasonable people, it is a rich universe with endless possibilities, but some things are gonna have to be sacrificed to make the rest of the game work. So be patient, and help devs with reasonable request not just Copy/Paste stuff from codex, cause that stuff works on TT, this is gonna be a living/breathing world, that we can influence. So some deviations are necessary!
Like we always said - we want a great fun game, we want to make it so that every fan of the wh40k universe can have fun playing this game. Staying true to the lore and making sure everything makes sense - sure, but always keeping in mind - first make it fun, then only everything else. We have a lot of true fans here in the dev team, some of them for more than 20 years - we love the world, the story, everything about it. we play the tabletop multiple times a week - we get our inspirations from many sources, and just last week a few of us where at GamesDay in UK to be there with GamesWorkshop.
We want a great game ourselves - you might say we want to make a game for you and us! We want to play it too!
We'll, maybe we will have some mechanic to exile someone too - is somewhat actually a nice idea, I'll talk to the game designers about it
Patrick Balthazar
Tech Lead - Behaviour Online
Lead Programmer - Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
www.EternalCrusade.com - #eternalcrusade - @lordpada
A lot of the factions can be allies with each other even in the TT. Space Marines can be allies of convenience/desperate allies with Orks and Eldar; Orks can be desperate allies/allies of convenience with everyone except Blood Angels and Black Templars, and Chaos according to the lore can be desperate allies with Orks. I'd imagine being stuck on a planet with 3 other factions could make some interesting bed mates.
some inquisitor can "use" ork and "ask" space marine to not shoot orks.
war 40K Eternal Crusade: refferal 4$ bonus: EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-9Y7IAZJ8UZN6I
actually when a brother captain did break the Codex, Calgar imposed a death oath on him...
Was it a short story from the book "Galaxy in flames" because thats what I'm referencing. Want to make sure we're referencing the same story here
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Planetside 2 does this a lot. There are other games out there as well, but PS2 is probably the biggest at the moment.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
i think its from the ultramarine novel where uriel broke the codex
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yup, in Dead Sky, Black Sun
not the same story, just saying that was not what Calgar normally does to address codex issues,he favours Death Oaths
" To merely execute warriors who might still bring grief to Mankind's enemies is a waste and a sin!"
How old is this story? Mines from 8 years ago.
Umm if you know how to read english..he was using an example, but for clarities sake so you can understand..he was comparing stats to the same sword , one from drop versus one from cash shop.....So if you get the drop you actually get the stronger wep.
And has been pointed out..This is not set in stone( I mean stat wise) so it could be that the "lower tier" sword is actually the same as the cash bought one.
its from 2004, so 9 years old
there's an omnibus with the first 3 stories of the series (Nightbringer, Warriors of Ultramar, Dead Sky, Black Sun.) for really, really cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultramarines-Omnibus-Graham-McNeill/dp/1844164039
if you like Ultramarines I absolutly recommend it, Graham McNeill is one of the best BL writers, the stories themselves are quite awesome, and he manages to make the smurfs likeable instead of mary sues.
That book made me love and hate the Ultramarines. 4th Company Under Uriel for life, son.
Cato can go take a walk.
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
same for me but without hate
just my salamanders are more loveable for me
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