Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
I predicted TESO 6 years ago, literally nothing I wanted was implimented
jiveturkey12
Member CommonPosts: 1,262
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1694785#1694785
I was being nostalgic as hell the other day and went back looking through my old posts here on MMORPG (As im sure most of us MMO nerds do). When I came across what was literally my first post ever on this forum over 6 years ago.
And in it I layed down some basic ideas for how I thought an ES MMO would work and of course was immeditely flamed for my outlandishly realistic suggestions on how he game would play out. Here's how different things our for the current ESO compared to the one I wanted.
-First Person combat is an afterthought
-Fewer Weapon Options than Skyrim
-Limited Continent travel because of FactionRestrictions
-No word on social areas at all
-Quests are typical, go here kill X fashion with the option to pick up a loaf of bread off the table (OOOOO)
- And of course With the recent news about no House of Earthly Delights, literally everything I wanted in the game isnt included and instead the game turned out like this:
Comments
That was hardly a prediction. More like a "Hey, you know what would make a cool MMO?". That said, I'm now sad that hardly anything has changed in all those years when it comes to MMOs.
I like the idea of brofisting my old self. You should totally reply to that topic and flame yourself for thinking out of the box :P.
Actually, "typical" quests are a big plus for ESO.
GW2 tried the dynamic event, emergent quest idea and they ended up kind of sucking. They are fun for a while, but they don't give you any idea of the story in a zone, and they don't give your character a sense of progress.
Quest hubs, directed quests in ESO (even if they are of the kill 10 variety) are going to be far more immersive from a story-telling point of view. If they are tied into the 3 faction conflict, then that will just further reinforce them.
Rithwis, Righteous Golem of Camelot | Skritha, Orc Archer of Tamriel | Bloodwod, Sawbones of Auraxis | Thrumdi, Blue Norn of Tyria | Gwidwod, Spider of the Ettenmoors | Gideon Slack, Hunter of Alsius
Man I miss EVE mainly for the snarky players.
Its like eating candy and razorblades at the same time.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
So like every Elder Scrolls quest. Kill this, collect that, activate this, talk to this guy, etc.
No offense but I like their design better than yours. Actually, It is hard to think of two things I would like less in an MMORPG than FPS combat and a big whore house. Obviously I'm not against "good quests" (but we don't know that they will be bad in the actual game yet). The way they've designed the endgame is going to promote a lot of socialization I think.
Ok, so you made a prediction of things you think it would have, people told you that wouldn't happen and they were correct/.
I'm not quite sure what your point is but apparently it's more along the lines of "you don't know how mmo design works" (from one of the posters in your thread).
Now, looking over your list i can say that some of those things were just pie in the sky thinking.
More weapons? Why? Because you want them? I wouldn't be adding more weapons if I was a designer. I would be capitalizing on the weapons in the TES lore.
more elaborate first person combat with people dying from an arrow in the head? Where is that coming from other than the game in your mind? One shotting a player because someone is hidden and can easily aim and hit the head isn't great design. All that will devolve into is people hiding in shadows and sniping each other until they all get bored and frustrated.
You will already get summerset isle and the other areas. Of course I think all of us would want them all to be completely fleshed out but there is only so much they can do in a few years.
The House of Earthly delights should be there (so I agree) but doesn't necessarily have to be for "adults". They could just white wash it and have clothed women dancing seductively and leave it at that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
kill 10 pigs and collect 15 bear asses. We really need the asses to aid our war effort, the pigs are very dangerous so it will be a good training...
i dont think that would help in any way the immersion in the story or the faction conflict. This questing system simply needs to go away to make space for the next level of character progression. As long as they keep focusing on traditional quests it will never evolve.
So because Im not agreeing with the Majority I dont know how MMO design works?
How is that a valid Argument Sorvath, seriously, tell me how that makes any sense other than you being a dick?
How about the 2 of you agree to disagree. I see merit in both of your opinions.
Now relax already, sheesh.
Well thing is this is an MMO wich takes place inside the elder scrolls world.
instead of making an elder scrolls world with its core principels and make that work for a big public.
Developers still think that because its called TES it will sale, Same thing happening with everquest. they took the name and its lore and demolish it to make something new instead of adding to said world.
we can only sit here and be pissed about it.
Most quests in any ES game are of the incredibly simplistic fetch, kill, or talk variety. What makes them seem better is the fact that quite often it's easy to get sidetracked by an interesting encounter or landmark. I've sat down many a time with the intention of whittling down my Skyrim quest log, only to wind up a few hours later with more quests then I started with, simply because the world has so many interesting things in it.
That's what makes TES games seem like so much more than they actually are. The quests are incredibly unimaginative, but the environments they take place in are beautiful, dangerous, and interesting.
Hopefully TESO can pull that off. If it does, then I believe the game will be quite successful.
No because this is exactly whats been goin on for years, Sorvath is just like every other elitiest MMO player, who thinks an idea thas outside the box has no merit because a million dollar publisher wont buy into it.
Thats bullshit im sorry, they could have easily made the game I stated or something close to that is more in line with ES lore, but Sorvath and every other non-imaginitive thinker out there thinks that box sales = good MMO design.
Sorry sorvath but your wrong dude, and the fact that weve had so many MMO's go F2P, Close Down completely, or layoffemployees is definitive proof of that. The MMO market is stagnate and its people like Sorvath and other mindless drones that are holding it back.
You are not an MMORPG designer, working in the industry as a designer, so it's a given that you don't know how MMORPG design really works. The fact that you are in this forum, instead of designing MMORPGs means you don't really know how it works. That applies to most of the people in these forums, aside from the few people in the industry who actually respond to our posts.
Sovrath does have a point though. What is the point of your OP? Many, many people have predicted many, many things here, and some of it has been spot on, and some of it hasn't.
What is your point? Is it that ESO is being designed wrong, in a manner that you don't like or that your predictions were wrong? It's not possible to take a position on your OP because it doesn't seem to take a position so much as just describe history.
What is your point? Once we have that, we can get down to arguing pointless over it.
**
Point, pointy point pointerson.
pointpointpointpointpointpoint
Just had to get that out of my system.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not being a dick dude, I'm saying that other players made this claim because he felt that your game desires were not in line with current (for the time? for the future?) mmo design and apparently he was right, they completely went the opposite way and stuck with actual mmo design ideas.
Now does this mean that mmo design ideas can't be expanded? no. But as I said, your ideas were not good. Well, some of them were not good. As i already stated above.
For the record, as another player mentioned it, fps combat is my preference since I tried Tera. I agree that the House of Earthly delights should be there. But that other stuff you mentioned?
It just doesn't work. And more to the point it doesnt' work in an Elder Scrolls game that is going to be multi-player.
One shotting mobs can be fun (though to me it gets tiring after a while) but one shotting players?
And having all these different weapons for the sake of "why?' I'm never interested in "everything but the kitchen sink" design in any game. Or anything for that matter.
Expanding first person combat "could" be good but there is only so much they can do with it. I mean, you attack, you block, perhaps they can add a kick. But it has to be in line with the 3rd person combat as well.
edit: and I'll add that you are getting social areas and the books in the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I predicted seven years ago that there should be a DC Universe MMO. If Sony followed my step-by-step design guideline it would have been, 'amazing'. Because this industry clearly lacks, 'ideas'....
Honestly that's how stupid your statements sound.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
ok fine let's go over it:
10 Races- Imperial, Breton, Nord, Argonian, Redguard, High Elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Kajiit, and of course Orc!
You will get all your races except Imperial. For the time period this makes sense "I think" because there is no empire yet.
New Continents- Most likely ones we have not been to yet, probably SummerSet Isle (original area oblivion was supposed to take place in). It has a great backdrop, and was talked about multiple times in Oblivion.
You will get new continents but it's not possible to have fully expanded and explorable continents on the scope of Oblvioin or Morrowind that can accommodate a huge player base. Just not enough time and resources. Look at the issues Vanguard had. I would love to have giant full huge continents but I can see how this is very problematic.
Tons of weapon options!- With Oblivion we saw by far the fewest amount of options in a TES game yet, but if their were to be an mmo, I could Guarentee they would bring back the Spears, Staves(combat), throwing weapons, and others that were missing from oblivion.
As I mentioned, just having a huge amount of weaposn doesn't make sense. Not only do they have to create these weapons and balance them but the amount of effort to add them means that these weapons have to justify existing. Otherwise it's just cosmetic. But maybe that's what you were thinking? Still, a thrusting weapons is a thrusting weapon so why put time and effort into 5 different thrusting weapons when you can have 2 and make sure it's balanced?
Real time first person Combat- A staple of TES series is its a FPSRPG. Im sure they will make it more engaging combat as well seeing as the leaps and bounds they made from Arena to Morrowind to Oblivion. I would expect to see people getting killed quite easily in combat(arrow to the head) but getting many defensive options in return.
I already stated why that part isn't good. The game will devolve to sniping and that's about it. No reason to be melee at all. This works in single player games but not multi-player games. You do mention defensive options but it would have to be very artificial to ward off an out of the blue arrow to the head. And probably not very Elder Scrolls. But if you want to expand on this I'd be more than happy to listen.
Tons of social areas- Even in a massivly single player game like Morrowind or oblivion, social hubs were rampant from the guild halls, to the taverns, to the castles. All of these areas are constant meaning people will always be there with you.
All this stuff will be there so you nailed that.
Engaging quests, Engaging characters, Engaging Lore..- Everything we have ever loved about a TES game on a massivly multiplayer scale! There will no doubt be tons of in game books to read, tons of great characters, and many many quests which give you purpose unlike the usual MMO fetch quests.
I think this is you just wanting better questing. A good many Elder Scrolls quests are fetch quests though there are some excellent quests with a lot of flavor. There is no reason to suspect that ESO won't have these. But given players' abilities to burn through quest content I wouldn't hold my breath on a lot of elaborate in depth quests as it takes time to make these so players can burn through them.
I bet this is one reason why SWToR is not adding a huge amount of quest lines as they learned that this stuff takes more money and effort than the time it takes to do them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My point is that my list of wants for an ES game were Slim and Realistic in the context of ES lore and gameplay, an that even 6 years ago, before the game was even announced, I was told "This will never happen".
AGAIN, Not by Developers, as you were trying to point out earlier, but by other people who also dont design MMO's for a living.
Yet you and Sorvath and all those other people who DONT design MMO's think that you can use the Burden of Proof on me and my ideas, its Elitism. And its brought on by the companies and fed into the drowning pool that these forums are and always have been.
An elite group of developers and publishers who say what can and cant be done within the confines of an MMO and then you just sit there and Agree with them, taking an idea that EVEN THOUGH IT MAKES SENSE WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE GAME, is rubbish because I dont know how to develop an MMO, because I dont have millions of dollars and years of programming experiance I can never understand what a fan of the series would want in an online extension of that world.
Im not saying my idea is better, Im saying its more in line with what I personally thought an ES game would be, and even though my ideas were far from outlandish considering the ES series and the capablities of the modern MMO, they were thrown out for a proposed few dollar signs and security for a failing pre-exsisting MMO paradigm.
Ok fine but I just listed your initial, erm, "list" and went point by point.
See if any of that makes sense to you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I respect that you did that, but it doesnt excuse the fact that your first post came off as straight Elitism and nothing else.
My ideas were automatically wrong to you, because they didnt fit within the CURRENT proposed MMO climate, and as much as I respect your rebuttal I cant agree with your way of thinking in your initial post, it was just plain wrong man.
So those are your bullet points? That's it? No wonder you got flamed.
First of all, FPV is widely unpopular with the vast majority of the gaming population. I personally find it less immersive than TPV, due to not have peripheral vision as well as issues with your hands, not being able to see your body, and it usually just looks horrible in just about any game that it's in. I played Oblivion and Skyrim in mostly first-person as well. What is the last popular first-person MMO? Exactly.
Your second point is 100% false, and that's due to a lack of educating yourself about the topic at hand. There are far more weapon options in TESO.
You call it limited. I call it restrictive. Either way, non-faction gameplay would have been my preference. You will however, be able to go to almost all areas available in the game, no matter your race or alliance. You just have to wait until the appropriate level.
Social areas, like what? I'm assuming you mean like the bar in Age of Conan, where you can brawl people? Inns and taverns will be in the game, and I'm sure a more appropriate version of your whorehouse that you can't get over will make it in the game at some point, despite what they have said.
Quests are not typical, again, pointing towards your lack of knowledge of the topic. Some will be, and I've yet to see anyone give us an example of a worthy replacement to the kill x quests. In fact, most quests will be found by simply discovering them on your travels, similar to how the Elder Scrolls games actually work. There will be points of interest. Random dynamic quests, along with your scripted quests that seem dynamic, but really aren't. Then there will also be anchor public quests, and let's not forget to mention all of the dungeon quests and the three faction PvP. The Elder Scrolls has always been about content. You are simply just misinformed.
You guys really need to get over the fact that they aren't interested in putting a whorehouse into the game. Of all things that you can complain about, it has been one of the biggest topics on these forums lately.
I don't think it's elitist at all. it wasn't my point to insult you but to say that i just don't agree with you.
If this was a conversation, which I am assuming it is, It would be a back and forth where you say your list I would say that others have said you don't know much about mmo game design and I would agree with their assessment, you would say I take issue witth that why do you say that, espeicially because you aren't an mmo designer, I would agree but then I would say ok these are my reasons.
So don't dwell on it, it's just a back and forth of ideas.
Here, let's put it this way.
My fantasy mmo would be such that the world would be so large that it could take me 1 hour or more of actual travel time (not necessarily in one sitting) until I could find something of interest and after I ran through that encounter/area I would have to travel back until I findally would see people again.
This is what I would like.
this is not good mmo design.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Who are you to say that Sorvath?
What makes your opinion more valid? Because apparently the reason mine isnt valid is because im not a MMO developer so I dont have the knowledge to make an MMO.
Are you a MMO developer? What give you this authority that your denying from me?
Can you really not see the giant gaping hole in your logic?
Again im not saying my ideas are better, Im saying that you cant just say because I dont have experiance developing MMO's that my ideas are bad MMO design.
So Making Linear MMO clones for 6 years + is good MMO design? Because thats your backup to your argument, is that they have been doing everything right up to this point, so I must be insane if I think one or two of my O so radical ideas could make it into a game.
I am saying that this is not good mmo design because:
1, most players would prefer not to travel 1+ hours in order to find a significant dungeon. given that these games take a heap of money to make, eventually most players would not log into the game, especially given that most players plan to log into the game and do something fun and not log into the game thinking, "I might just travel and explore today but find nothing".
2, a world so large would dilute the player base significantly. Additionally, if a group was traveling and say after an hour they found a huge dungeon to explore, some would eventually have to log off which might inhibt the current party with no real cohesive in game way to bolster that party. Now, when they log back in a day or so later they might find themselves alone and wanting to travel back to civilization which means their play that night might just be travel and nomething else. Players tend to want to be better engaged.
3, the amount of effort it seems to take in order to create these worlds would be immense in order to create a world of that size. Remember, Vanguard had to actually cut out continent parts because they just couldn't finish parts of the game world.
Any game that has a design that inhibits its completion is not good.
4, I come to this conclusion based upon developer discussions, discussions with developers at PAX, player discussions on forums as well as the few gamers I meet in "real life".
I'm not just sitting here throwing darts at a board and saying "yup, that's not good game design".
A good game design is one that engages the most players of a specific demographic, can support itself based upon that player demographic and allows players to change their minds more readily instead of lockign them into a course of action that might change the next time they log in.
To me this is just plain logic based upon developer and player discussions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
First of all. They didn't go with you ideas because companies are in business to make a profit and clearly they have focus groups and studies that support the direction they are going. I'm not saying you are wrong but if the numbers just don't support you ideas then they won't go that way.
Second, You do realize that most games that go F2P make MORE money they did with a sub and that's why everyone is moving that direction. It saved DDO and if you refer back to the first point, it comes full circle. Sure most of the games that have gone F2P would have closed their doors if they wouldn't have, but now most games are launching F2P. If that model was only successful to prolong a game then we wouldn't be seeing games such as Neverwinter be F2P from day 1. It's the new flavor of the month it seems and sadly, there are people that won't play a game unless its F2P. I hate that model myself because most of the games seem shallow, but the industry sees $$$$ there, so that's where they are going.
Now, if you really are passionate about your ideas, then why not get into the business. You may not be a programmer or a graphics artist but there are management positions... I doubt any major companies are surfing MMORPG.com forums looking for new ideas.