Originally posted by Iceman8235 I didn't even read the article because there isn't really an argument to be had here. There's no reason every triple A mmo these days shouldn't be able to have both end game PvE and PvP progression.
Fully agree. I really don't understand people who for some reason feel they need to be seperate. But then again perhaps they are not familiar with other genre of games that already offer it seperate.
I don't think being able to come up with six months of content by creating three tiny maps, a ranking system and a new set of gear is really a positive for the PvP side of the argument; and treating PvP in such a way sort of reduces it to just an after thought.
I enjoy both and any game I play will incorperate both. If I wanted a straight PVP game id play a FPS. If I wanted a straight pve game id play something like Skyrim.
They key is to make a robust game with lots of robust systems, pvp and pve. I have no clue why people say this can't happen.
Wushu (here we go again. I know but for good reason) robust (atleast 15) pvp systems, with five one hour plus dungeons, with atleast four modes for each, ranging in size from 6 to 38 man. In addition to atleast 10 other pve systems.
Over the course of one year there has been two minor nerfs and one buff that I know of. Why can't the two coexist? They can, but guess what it takes planning during the development phase. It takes sharp programmers and high level vision.
Western AAA developers have been given too much money not to be able to have top notch talent. Less and less has been spent on gaining and retaining these talented people, and it shows when the majority of the western mmorpg community cannot conceive how pvp and pve can coexist. It's really a damn shame.
On the other hand, PvE has almost (strong emphasis on ALMOST) been pretty good. Pretty much the reason for that is you didn't have to worry or look over your shoulder so much.
If that is why you think PvE is good you are out of your mind.
You obviously did not read what was said as you only quoted ONE sentence. Even in that sentence, I said "ALMOST" in regards to PvE. But, in my opinion, mixing PvP with PvE has ALWAYS lead to a poor PvE experience regardless.
'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......
No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.
That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.
You enjoyed it because YOU were the one that had the upper hand. I am sure that the people that were on the receiving end did not think the same....at least not all of them. But this is where the PvP/PvE debate is so blurred. PvP'ers that can beat up on someone and win think it is great. PvE'ers that are often beaten down by those same PvP'ers think that it is not fair because PvP is not the reason they play some of those games. They are not looking to have to contend with every PvP'er that thinks "red is dead". Their thinking is "where can I go to find this or do that". In other words, mix PvP'ers with PvP'ers ONLY. Leave PvE'ers alone.
Originally posted by DeathWolf2u 'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.
You enjoyed it because YOU were the one that had the upper hand. I am sure that the people that were on the receiving end did not think the same....at least not all of them. But this is where the PvP/PvE debate is so blurred. PvP'ers that can beat up on someone and win think it is great. PvE'ers that are often beaten down by those same PvP'ers think that it is not fair because PvP is not the reason they play some of those games. They are not looking to have to contend with every PvP'er that thinks "red is dead". Their thinking is "where can I go to find this or do that". In other words, mix PvP'ers with PvP'ers ONLY. Leave PvE'ers alone.
::raises hand::
That is me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
ok all games ive played with my guild this is pve players for us.
eve online. we started our career we enjoyed running alone doing 40vs100.
we couldn't do that for a very long time because pve players they are casual players they don't care they got nothing to lose so they try to follow the fleet and destroy for us we hated that but after joining a very closed alliance with no pugs(pve players) all we did was killing em in other alliances and didn't let them in.
guild wars 2 is the biggest fail 2013 in this.
the game have created a brilliant mode WvW but they focus PVE and PVP except pvp was fail there all WvW players do PVP to train invidually then they leave for WvW(90% of those players are guild players and I heard most of them are quitting slowly so bye bye pvp and good quality WvW)
this league in guild wars 2 totally showed me how much pve players sucks.
several servers went from average ques in prime time and no que whole day all guilds could man raids the first day of league began and for whole weeks there was 3 hours que to up no guilds could start no core raids.
pve players are a disgrace lol they don't think about the server just for themselves they don't even now what skills to use in game they don't even get on teamspeak nor are they communicating its just about themselves because they are ''casual '' players.
there is no way to create a game for both PVP pve players except.
you make a server for better players PVP players and a server for PVE players casual players.
All I do is pvp, and in a hardcore capacity. I love it and it will always be a more important reason of why I play mmorpg's, rather than pve. If I want a scripted fight to master I'll give some of you raiders a call. Cya on the field, all of them btw.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Chris, I find it highly annoying that you only look at PvP from a perspective of battlegrounds and instances. Also the part of the community's is just not true, I have been part of some very good PvP community's. Times have changed since the old days (UO, DAoC, etc) and luckily, looking at some projects being undertaken now, we are going back to how it was back then.
this was a nice article, good job you guys, and as usual I am posting before reading any comments.
I agree with you guys in most of your arguments, I am a pve'er who does some pvp which I suck at, but still enjoying playing anyway. I think the most ideal thing is to have a morg that is just like real life, sandbox... as well as open world pvp, no classes either, and for christ sake no holy trinity b.s.
'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......
No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.
That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.
I do not agree that PvP players are the best, far from it. PvP these days is nothing more than the same Arena/Battleground grind ... following the same general tactics used 1000x over. I mostly PvE now, but I PvP hours and hours on end back in DAoC when PvP did involve more than a general zerg towards each other like wild barbarians on the battlefield.
PvP isn't the best on MMOs, as it generally causes balancing nightmares and only damages the stability of the game. WoW is a good example of this. Rare exceptions is how DAoC did the original frontiers.
The PvP I loved dates back to the days of UO and DAoC ... this current PvE vs PvP trend if garbage.
Hah, PVP is easily more skillbased than PVE. PVE is just about running instances until you get your shit and everyone else get theirs. Try playing a game with good PVP in top tier and you have a real challenge.
That said, PVP is as others have stated shit these days because the devs just don't give a fuck, "oh lets add an arena so these fuckers will shut up already". Yepp thats about it.
Originally posted by Iceman8235 I didn't even read the article because there isn't really an argument to be had here. There's no reason every triple A mmo these days shouldn't be able to have both end game PvE and PvP progression.
Fully agree. I really don't understand people who for some reason feel they need to be seperate. But then again perhaps they are not familiar with other genre of games that already offer it seperate.
Probably because you've never had to sit down and actually get it to function properly across two diametrically different play styles. To date successful implementation of a balanced pvp balanced pve hybrid with no uncontrollable crossover consequences is something like 0 / several hundred attempts.
Sooner or later every team that's tried comes to the same conclusion and goes with the default 80-90 / 20-10 split default, where most developmental resources are focused in one or the other.
there is "regular people who play everything" vs. PvE-only extremists who are not good at PvP and only shoot easier scripted mobs, running an ideological PvE vs PVP debate for every game.
I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.
The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP.
A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.
Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.
Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.
there is "regular people who play everything" vs. PvE-only extremists who are not good at PvP and only shoot easier scripted mobs, running an ideological PvE vs PVP debate for every game.
I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.
The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP.
A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.
Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.
Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.
And the coin flip of this is that pve changes often have big unforeseen/un-desired impacts on pvp(for reference see STO) There is not enough time in any development cycle to QA this crap away, it just builds your todo list with every change.
I laughed when Bill said that PvE'ers would cry of the A.I was too smart (aka The computer wouldnt let me win Waaaaaaah)
All jokes aside
I agree with Bill, pvp content in an open world setting can be washed & repeated. Battlegrounds and arenas get alittle mundane... the only game that did battlegrounds correctly was Daoc. I also want to add that pve is also important to pvp'ers because it allows us to relax from the pressures of pvp.
Everybody knows being the best at something is stressful...
That's a very real issue though, and one that has been discussed many times here and by developers on their own games forums many times. There is a super tricky balance developers must try to reach when programming their boss encounters. They must make fights difficult enough that there will be a learning curve for almost any group and, therefore, feel very rewarding once they finally defeat the encounter; but they must not make the fights too hard, or you will alienate way too many players (and get all the rest to rage quit).
I know some believe that PvE difficulty suffers because developers don't have the technology to make truly challenging AI, but that's not the case at all. They can make bosses dynamically respond to all sorts of different scenarios, but the results would just be severely frustrating for players. When players can't accurately anticipate what a boss will do and respond accordingly, when the boss can unpredictably adjust a mechanic on the fly to own someone, it just feels cheap and frustrating. The computer could just press an 'I win' button at any point (and not just by statistically 1-shotting everyone), but that doesn't feel fun to anyone.
I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
MMORPG PVPers are those that are bad at other REAL PVP genres (fighting, FPS, sports, the ones that actually takes skill to win), and decide to look for easier targets that they can handle: those not interested in PVP, or they need something to give them advantage over others. MMORPGs are just too slow for real skill to show, especially when gear matters. Ironic seeing that the only thing these PVPers gloat are their "mad skillz", though in reality they're lacking in them or otherwise they'd go for those other games. Seriously, though, if these guys are so pro, why don't they just play for the real money in real competitions? Those get them more recognition, more reward, and more challenge (hah) than playing MMORPGs.
Originally posted by Rinna I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps. I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there. Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers. Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.
People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich.
Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced and Arena areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it just collect cosmetics.
I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This might be a troll post, it's not my intent to troll.
The topic of PVP vs PVE could also be be written as Murder vs Adventure. Not only are they not antonyms but there is no need to even compare PVP vs PVE. My point is better illustrated in the real world event that changed how a game called WoW failed three times with delving PVP to subscribers...
-Vanilla WoW had full world PVP.
Enter PVP'er (any category, casual, elitist, hardcore, etc...)
Blizzard re-zoned and people who wanted to PVP opposing players in their 'noob zones' found glitches and either swam or ran for two hours (literally) to get some killing done.
Blizzard then created PVP Arenas and made the mistake of punishing players who did not participate (Via PVP Gear Rewards)
Blizzard then created PVP Zones where PVE Elements were massaged into a highly accepted fashion of PVP'ing.
Enough history... Let me get to my rant.
MMO's are social networks. We have the backdrop of the game to keep us occupied as we build social bonds. While I enjoy PvPing, I do not look at non-pvp'ers like they are second class citizens. I like defending my guild or another person or even a piece of real estate... what person wouldn't?
I would be ignorant to say that my skills as a PVP'er are better than those who don't. It would be the same injustice to say that a hardcore PVP'er cant muster the high end PVE content. Anyone can backstab a rabbit or deer, but how many can conquer content? Hmmmm.....
PVP should finally have it's home in MMO, after all this time. I truly believe that managing PVP is like being a prison guard. Who wants to babysit prisoners? Who wants to address 100k complaints with the same content? I don't.
At last, I will share my most memorable PVP encounter on a 'full pvp-full drop' server...
As I was skirting through the edge of town, on my way to selling some loot in order to use the funds to craft better gear. A player, five levels above me, was seen running through the center of town by my ever-watching eyes. He pretended not to see me, but my gut feeling told me there was going to be a fight.
I sold a few items while devising an exit plan in case he attacked. Suddenly, he attacked from a distance.
'Mage!" I thought.
Line of sight was killed as I stepped to the side and hopped over a tall barrier. AS he hopped over the barrier, I hit him with my longest casting spell... Boom!!! There went a large chunk of his health. He countered with a more powerful spell with a shorter cast time, as did I.
The fight went on for literally three minutes before I killed his LOS using the nearby barrier, then hopping back over to gain enough time to 'mana-up'. As he hopped back over I opened fire and killed him with only 3-5 health points of my own remaining.
I guarded his body while he limped back to his corpse. He whispered, 'why didnt you loot me man? I would have looted you.'
My reply, 'I took the most valuable thing... your life.'
He laughed, 'Dood... we respawn ya know. LOL'
I adjusted my quick bar to reflect a better rotation for PVP as he spoke, then I turned toward the nearby woods. He whispered, 'You need a guild?'
I thought about how he openly attacked me for no reason. I thought about him looting my only possessions in the game. I thought about getting away before he got his strength back... I had no reason to trust him.
"Sure... why not?!?", I said, as he added me to his guild
I looked at my new guild name and shrugged, why would anyone name a guild 'Blood'.
LOL -I love PVP, just cant stand the players -Attaka
I am a firm believer of pve. PVP is not even in my catagory of a mmorpg. Although pvp has its "fun" in some instances-DAOC realm vs realm- etc. But all out pvp is just wrong in my opinion.Aside from the mindless gankers who walk around just looking for someone with a lower level and weaker type solo class as they are to "whip thier butt". You have the other mindset who want to kill other players just to get thier loots. If pvp cannot be contained in arens or specially designed zones where solo or pve players will not adventure in because they know it is exclusively pvp it is surely a welcome addition to any game. But please do not make going into these zones the only way for pve people to aquire items and get to places they need to get to in order to finish quests or other game feature-like visiting needed towns or travel sites. Also, what is the need to aquire "PVP gear".If everyone who plays in the same game can get the same gear ,why do they need Special Gear to pvp? The same items should be available to all players who are equal level and standing in the game. Maybe subscription players should be able to get better gear than free players but I am also not a fan of the free player and item shop idea that is hitting the market .
But back to pvp vs pve. Please allow pvp only in restrivted zones or by a consent option.As stated i am not a fan ofpvp and would not miss it if it was erased from the genre altogether.Are there any exclusive pvp games that last more than a few years?? The thoughts of takeing on a relatively even strengthed mob and winning only to be hit from behind right after by some 13 year old pvper who wants to tell his friend he just beat a higher level character and got his items- without telling he was ant 30% strength from a previous fight just want ot make me puke.
The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?
I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.
Comments
Fully agree. I really don't understand people who for some reason feel they need to be seperate. But then again perhaps they are not familiar with other genre of games that already offer it seperate.
I don't think being able to come up with six months of content by creating three tiny maps, a ranking system and a new set of gear is really a positive for the PvP side of the argument; and treating PvP in such a way sort of reduces it to just an after thought.
They key is to make a robust game with lots of robust systems, pvp and pve. I have no clue why people say this can't happen.
Wushu (here we go again. I know but for good reason) robust (atleast 15) pvp systems, with five one hour plus dungeons, with atleast four modes for each, ranging in size from 6 to 38 man. In addition to atleast 10 other pve systems.
Over the course of one year there has been two minor nerfs and one buff that I know of. Why can't the two coexist? They can, but guess what it takes planning during the development phase. It takes sharp programmers and high level vision.
Western AAA developers have been given too much money not to be able to have top notch talent. Less and less has been spent on gaining and retaining these talented people, and it shows when the majority of the western mmorpg community cannot conceive how pvp and pve can coexist. It's really a damn shame.
You obviously did not read what was said as you only quoted ONE sentence. Even in that sentence, I said "ALMOST" in regards to PvE. But, in my opinion, mixing PvP with PvE has ALWAYS lead to a poor PvE experience regardless.
Let's party like it is 1863!
You enjoyed it because YOU were the one that had the upper hand. I am sure that the people that were on the receiving end did not think the same....at least not all of them. But this is where the PvP/PvE debate is so blurred. PvP'ers that can beat up on someone and win think it is great. PvE'ers that are often beaten down by those same PvP'ers think that it is not fair because PvP is not the reason they play some of those games. They are not looking to have to contend with every PvP'er that thinks "red is dead". Their thinking is "where can I go to find this or do that". In other words, mix PvP'ers with PvP'ers ONLY. Leave PvE'ers alone.
Let's party like it is 1863!
That is me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
gw2,eve...
ok all games ive played with my guild this is pve players for us.
eve online. we started our career we enjoyed running alone doing 40vs100.
we couldn't do that for a very long time because pve players they are casual players they don't care they got nothing to lose so they try to follow the fleet and destroy for us we hated that but after joining a very closed alliance with no pugs(pve players) all we did was killing em in other alliances and didn't let them in.
guild wars 2 is the biggest fail 2013 in this.
the game have created a brilliant mode WvW but they focus PVE and PVP except pvp was fail there all WvW players do PVP to train invidually then they leave for WvW(90% of those players are guild players and I heard most of them are quitting slowly so bye bye pvp and good quality WvW)
this league in guild wars 2 totally showed me how much pve players sucks.
several servers went from average ques in prime time and no que whole day all guilds could man raids the first day of league began and for whole weeks there was 3 hours que to up no guilds could start no core raids.
pve players are a disgrace lol they don't think about the server just for themselves they don't even now what skills to use in game they don't even get on teamspeak nor are they communicating its just about themselves because they are ''casual '' players.
there is no way to create a game for both PVP pve players except.
you make a server for better players PVP players and a server for PVE players casual players.
problem is how to get them to right server lol.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Chris, I find it highly annoying that you only look at PvP from a perspective of battlegrounds and instances. Also the part of the community's is just not true, I have been part of some very good PvP community's. Times have changed since the old days (UO, DAoC, etc) and luckily, looking at some projects being undertaken now, we are going back to how it was back then.
this was a nice article, good job you guys, and as usual I am posting before reading any comments.
I agree with you guys in most of your arguments, I am a pve'er who does some pvp which I suck at, but still enjoying playing anyway. I think the most ideal thing is to have a morg that is just like real life, sandbox... as well as open world pvp, no classes either, and for christ sake no holy trinity b.s.
now lets play
I do not agree that PvP players are the best, far from it. PvP these days is nothing more than the same Arena/Battleground grind ... following the same general tactics used 1000x over. I mostly PvE now, but I PvP hours and hours on end back in DAoC when PvP did involve more than a general zerg towards each other like wild barbarians on the battlefield.
PvP isn't the best on MMOs, as it generally causes balancing nightmares and only damages the stability of the game. WoW is a good example of this. Rare exceptions is how DAoC did the original frontiers.
The PvP I loved dates back to the days of UO and DAoC ... this current PvE vs PvP trend if garbage.
Hah, PVP is easily more skillbased than PVE. PVE is just about running instances until you get your shit and everyone else get theirs. Try playing a game with good PVP in top tier and you have a real challenge.
That said, PVP is as others have stated shit these days because the devs just don't give a fuck, "oh lets add an arena so these fuckers will shut up already". Yepp thats about it.
Probably because you've never had to sit down and actually get it to function properly across two diametrically different play styles. To date successful implementation of a balanced pvp balanced pve hybrid with no uncontrollable crossover consequences is something like 0 / several hundred attempts.
Sooner or later every team that's tried comes to the same conclusion and goes with the default 80-90 / 20-10 split default, where most developmental resources are focused in one or the other.
I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.
The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP.
A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.
Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.
Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.
And the coin flip of this is that pve changes often have big unforeseen/un-desired impacts on pvp(for reference see STO) There is not enough time in any development cycle to QA this crap away, it just builds your todo list with every change.
That's a very real issue though, and one that has been discussed many times here and by developers on their own games forums many times. There is a super tricky balance developers must try to reach when programming their boss encounters. They must make fights difficult enough that there will be a learning curve for almost any group and, therefore, feel very rewarding once they finally defeat the encounter; but they must not make the fights too hard, or you will alienate way too many players (and get all the rest to rage quit).
I know some believe that PvE difficulty suffers because developers don't have the technology to make truly challenging AI, but that's not the case at all. They can make bosses dynamically respond to all sorts of different scenarios, but the results would just be severely frustrating for players. When players can't accurately anticipate what a boss will do and respond accordingly, when the boss can unpredictably adjust a mechanic on the fly to own someone, it just feels cheap and frustrating. The computer could just press an 'I win' button at any point (and not just by statistically 1-shotting everyone), but that doesn't feel fun to anyone.
No bitchers.
People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich.
Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced and Arena areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it just collect cosmetics.
I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This might be a troll post, it's not my intent to troll.
The topic of PVP vs PVE could also be be written as Murder vs Adventure. Not only are they not antonyms but there is no need to even compare PVP vs PVE. My point is better illustrated in the real world event that changed how a game called WoW failed three times with delving PVP to subscribers...
-Vanilla WoW had full world PVP.
Enter PVP'er (any category, casual, elitist, hardcore, etc...)
Blizzard re-zoned and people who wanted to PVP opposing players in their 'noob zones' found glitches and either swam or ran for two hours (literally) to get some killing done.
Blizzard then created PVP Arenas and made the mistake of punishing players who did not participate (Via PVP Gear Rewards)
Blizzard then created PVP Zones where PVE Elements were massaged into a highly accepted fashion of PVP'ing.
Enough history... Let me get to my rant.
MMO's are social networks. We have the backdrop of the game to keep us occupied as we build social bonds. While I enjoy PvPing, I do not look at non-pvp'ers like they are second class citizens. I like defending my guild or another person or even a piece of real estate... what person wouldn't?
I would be ignorant to say that my skills as a PVP'er are better than those who don't. It would be the same injustice to say that a hardcore PVP'er cant muster the high end PVE content. Anyone can backstab a rabbit or deer, but how many can conquer content? Hmmmm.....
PVP should finally have it's home in MMO, after all this time. I truly believe that managing PVP is like being a prison guard. Who wants to babysit prisoners? Who wants to address 100k complaints with the same content? I don't.
At last, I will share my most memorable PVP encounter on a 'full pvp-full drop' server...
As I was skirting through the edge of town, on my way to selling some loot in order to use the funds to craft better gear. A player, five levels above me, was seen running through the center of town by my ever-watching eyes. He pretended not to see me, but my gut feeling told me there was going to be a fight.
I sold a few items while devising an exit plan in case he attacked. Suddenly, he attacked from a distance.
'Mage!" I thought.
Line of sight was killed as I stepped to the side and hopped over a tall barrier. AS he hopped over the barrier, I hit him with my longest casting spell... Boom!!! There went a large chunk of his health. He countered with a more powerful spell with a shorter cast time, as did I.
The fight went on for literally three minutes before I killed his LOS using the nearby barrier, then hopping back over to gain enough time to 'mana-up'. As he hopped back over I opened fire and killed him with only 3-5 health points of my own remaining.
I guarded his body while he limped back to his corpse. He whispered, 'why didnt you loot me man? I would have looted you.'
My reply, 'I took the most valuable thing... your life.'
He laughed, 'Dood... we respawn ya know. LOL'
I adjusted my quick bar to reflect a better rotation for PVP as he spoke, then I turned toward the nearby woods. He whispered, 'You need a guild?'
I thought about how he openly attacked me for no reason. I thought about him looting my only possessions in the game. I thought about getting away before he got his strength back... I had no reason to trust him.
"Sure... why not?!?", I said, as he added me to his guild
I looked at my new guild name and shrugged, why would anyone name a guild 'Blood'.
LOL -I love PVP, just cant stand the players -Attaka
I am a firm believer of pve. PVP is not even in my catagory of a mmorpg. Although pvp has its "fun" in some instances-DAOC realm vs realm- etc. But all out pvp is just wrong in my opinion.Aside from the mindless gankers who walk around just looking for someone with a lower level and weaker type solo class as they are to "whip thier butt". You have the other mindset who want to kill other players just to get thier loots. If pvp cannot be contained in arens or specially designed zones where solo or pve players will not adventure in because they know it is exclusively pvp it is surely a welcome addition to any game. But please do not make going into these zones the only way for pve people to aquire items and get to places they need to get to in order to finish quests or other game feature-like visiting needed towns or travel sites. Also, what is the need to aquire "PVP gear".If everyone who plays in the same game can get the same gear ,why do they need Special Gear to pvp? The same items should be available to all players who are equal level and standing in the game. Maybe subscription players should be able to get better gear than free players but I am also not a fan of the free player and item shop idea that is hitting the market .
But back to pvp vs pve. Please allow pvp only in restrivted zones or by a consent option.As stated i am not a fan ofpvp and would not miss it if it was erased from the genre altogether.Are there any exclusive pvp games that last more than a few years?? The thoughts of takeing on a relatively even strengthed mob and winning only to be hit from behind right after by some 13 year old pvper who wants to tell his friend he just beat a higher level character and got his items- without telling he was ant 30% strength from a previous fight just want ot make me puke.
The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?
I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.