Originally posted by rnor6084 If you let a game ruin you and bankrupt you then it is your fault. Period.
Stop blaming others for your poor choices.
You're an idiot.. Try again.
Yeah, that's usually the response people get when they advocate personal responsibility these days...
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
I am an unemployed artist, who lives by very, very few Euros. But you see. In the past, in days of Everquest II and Star Wars Galaxies: we all paid ONE price: ONE box and ONE equal fee. End of story. And then inside the game what I had achieved was MY INGAME WORK. End of the story.#
But now we have money aristocracy. Suddenly the poor in RL are poor in the games too! And the rich are having titles, castles and endless boni. Just as in RL. And tbh... I hate that. I use the word hate very consciouly on relation to this. That suddenly people have titles and castles and expensive robes in MMOs just because they are rich in RL pisses me off to no end.
I'm not sure I understand you. From what I know of Landmark it's a game of competitve/co-operative creativity. Those players who will stand out will be those with the most impressive designs, not necessarily the ones with 'expensive robes' and titles. Your 'ingame work' is still what you will be measured by in this game. As an unemployed artist, you should have a natural advantage here - both in terms of your creative capability and the time you have available.
Originally posted by rnor6084 If you let a game ruin you and bankrupt you then it is your fault. Period.
Stop blaming others for your poor choices.
You're an idiot.. Try again.
Yeah, that's usually the response people get when they advocate personal responsibility these days...
I agree with being responsible for you own actions, but the thread was never about going bankrupt in F2P games, you guys take any chance to step on someone to feel better about yourselves lol.
OP is talking about the experience you get when your rich compared to poor, and also the social divide it creates in-game..
Not to mention that you're not even getting a full game when it's "free to play", and now they want money for founder packs with early access for a free game.. We can just NOT pay, your right.. But the poor wants to play all these games just as much as the rich.. If you personally was left out of every alpha / beta / headstart, you'd feel terrible as well.
Originally posted by rnor6084 If you let a game ruin you and bankrupt you then it is your fault. Period.
Stop blaming others for your poor choices.
You're an idiot.. Try again.
Yeah, that's usually the response people get when they advocate personal responsibility these days...
I agree with being responsible for you own actions, but the thread was never about going bankrupt in F2P games, you guys take any chance to step on someone to feel better about yourselves lol.
OP is talking about the experience you get when your rich compared to poor, and also the social divide it creates in-game..
Not to mention that you're not even getting a full game when it's "free to play", and now they want money for founder packs with early access for a free game.. We can just NOT pay, your right.. But the poor wants to play all these games just as much as the rich.. If you personally was left out of every alpha / beta / headstart, you'd feel terrible as well.
So, try again.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I cannot earn a lot of money because of an illness, NOT because of bad choices in life!(saw some dumb comments about that which pissed me off!).
Being poor IRL is not much fun, but games, and especially mmo's, gave me the feeling I could be a rich character owning a huge house and awesome gear. But now spoiled kids and people with money that are willing to spend loads of cash on gear, vanity items, etc make me feel just as poor ingame.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
Aye, and it's even more fascinating when you consider that the OP praises the old subscription based model in his thread title post, which involved buying the initial box, paying a fee every month (or you can't play at all) and paying for each expansion.
At least in a F2P game, a person with low income can still play even if he can't pay anything a specific month. Seems way more "poor friendly" to me than the old model.
If you want a 25% of a game, sure F2P is great.
Buy a box and pay every month is poor friendly, poor where I live is not 3rd world country poor, we don't go to the river to wash our ass.
With P2P everyone could get the game, and pay those 15 bucks every month and have endless hours of entertainment.. And everyone would be equal in game, you couldn't tell rich from poor.
F2P is a constant pressure to go visit the shop so you can be as cool as the new grad engineer guy on page 1.
We all know it's bullshit, P2P worked fine, and the only reason they moved to F2P is because rich idiots throw around their money on the internet.. They took advantage, and now all we get are halfbaked "free" games with 100 dollar founder packs.
The only ones defending F2P is the middleclass who have just enough money to throw into games that they can feel better than everyone else, so they keep throwing a couple of hundred bucks into every bad "free" game that releases.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
Aye, and it's even more fascinating when you consider that the OP praises the old subscription based model in his thread title post, which involved buying the initial box, paying a fee every month (or you can't play at all) and paying for each expansion.
At least in a F2P game, a person with low income can still play even if he can't pay anything a specific month. Seems way more "poor friendly" to me than the old model.
Yeap... especially noone have to buy or is forced to buy those foundry packs.. is everyone that impatient to wait a few more month to get all that for free? And yeah.. if you want to be heavy involved into landmark you have to spend a few bucks most probably... but will it be more than the box price + monthly subscriptions for usually a few years? I somewhat doubt it.. and even more with as limited time as the op seem to have.
Sometimes i think most games believe the gaming industry have to be a non commercial organisation. They have to earn money, they have to get the investment back and a nice profit margin for investors and shareholders.
Do i like all F2P models? No. But F2P is not the devil. Hence there are F2P games, where you can actually play the entire game without any disadvantage for free like DoTA2.
The problem with F2P and MMOs is foremost the extremely high investment.. the development cost of any MMO is usually ten time as much as for a MOBA without attracting necessary more people.. and with that said it is not really surprising that they have to get more money from their cash shops, and withit not everything is for free.
And last but not least as usual the consumer has the last word what kind of cashshop is acceptable for the consumer.. if you don't like certain cashshops, certain F2P or kind of P2W games.. just don't play that game, just don't invest into those cashshops, and instead invest some money in a cashshop where you really don't need to invest(like in DoTA2). Leave your message with your money.
But i do understand the generall mood from a lot of veteran gamers.. the industry has changed. In the past there were a lot of garage developer, enthusiasts, where money was not the most important driving force.. now it is a mainstream economic sector with a lot of incorporated companies, where money/profit is the driving force. In the past it was for a lot of developer more of a hobby, now it is a business.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
Aye, and it's even more fascinating when you consider that the OP praises the old subscription based model in his thread title post, which involved buying the initial box, paying a fee every month (or you can't play at all) and paying for each expansion.
At least in a F2P game, a person with low income can still play even if he can't pay anything a specific month. Seems way more "poor friendly" to me than the old model.
Yes but his argument was never the cost or that it should be free ( or not free enough ) It's that he doesn't want the different pay scales and all the things that come with paying more vrs paying less.
Right now we see a range from $20-100 and most gamers are fine with it. That doesn't mean we wont start to see those numbers go up. When they do what do they start to offer ? I don't want to bring pay to win into this but if we become desensitized to it, they will add it if it brings in more money.
I do kind of empathize with him but it's just a fact in life that people with money will always have more toys.
If you aren't able to pay a subscription in a P2P MMORPG, you get 0% of the game. At least in most F2P models, you can pay when you are able to, and yet still play.
Ye play 25% of a game.
Buy a box and pay every month is poor friendly, poor where I live is not 3rd world country poor, we don't go to the river to wash our ass.
So you can also pay $15 every month for a F2P game, right? What's the difference? And the months you can't pay for whatever reason, at least you can still play. "Poor friendly" (if that means anything).
Even if we did pay 50 bucks and 15 bucks a month in a F2P you wouldn't have the full game.. More like a 1000 bucks.
With P2P everyone could get the game, and pay those 15 bucks every month and have endless hours of entertainment.. And everyone would be equal in game, you couldn't tell rich from poor.
And as I said, when you can't pay, you can't play (AT ALL). What was that equality you were talking about? Ah yes, equality between those who can fork out $15x12=$180 a year to play constantly and the others. Great equality indeed.
180 is a lot better than 1000.
F2P is a constant pressure to go visit the shop so you can be as cool as the new grad engineer guy on page 1.
And you don't have a strong enough will to resist the urge to buy purely cosmetic stuff to only focus on the gameplay related stuff which you could afford for no more than a normal subscription?
Was just an example of how F2P works, I can resist it but I don't want to play a game that constantly pressure you to go spend money, with 15 bucks a month I know the deal and I get the full game.
We all know it's bullshit, P2P worked fine, and the only reason they moved to F2P is because rich idiots throw around their money on the internet.. They took advantage, and now all we get are halfbaked "free" games with 100 dollar founder packs.
Founder packs exist for P2P MMORPGs too. They actually cost as much if not more than those F2P founder packs. And don't get me started about collector editions...
Usually it's pre-orders, you pay 50 bucks for the game in advance, money you would have spend anyway when the game release, and these pre-orders sometimes include alpha/ beta access and/or headstart, that's not the same as charging people for alpha / beta access to a free game, and letting everyone else wait 3 months at the gate.
The only ones defending F2P is the middleclass who have just enough money to throw into games that they can feel better than everyone else, so they keep throwing a couple of hundred bucks into every bad "free" game that releases.
An amusing generalization... which only harms yourself and your arguments. Disagree with someone? Simple, just put them into some category, or even better, call them idiots. Who needs valid arguments?
Originally posted by Elikal (OR watch my video above.^^)
Ok, if you are not ready for a vent... pls leave now.
Ok.
You see, I love gaming. Seriously. But recently, I really question ... WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WITH MY MORTAL LIMITED LIFETIME?
And you see, NO, it's not per se, that I suddenly see gaming as a waste of time or money. But in recent years... the relation of what I am supposed to do and pay has simply gone worse and worse. I can cite numerous examples. But instead of boring you, I give you two which IMVHO stand for many.
First: EQN Landmarks money grab. Yes, I am an unemployed artist, who lives by very, very few Euros. But you see. In the past, in days of Everquest II and Star Wars Galaxies: we all paid ONE price: ONE box and ONE equal fee. End of story. And then inside the game what I had achieved was MY INGAME WORK. End of the story.#
But now we have money aristocracy. Suddenly the poor in RL are poor in the games too! And the rich are having titles, castles and endless boni. Just as in RL. And tbh... I hate that. I use the word hate very consciouly on relation to this. That suddenly people have titles and castles and expensive robes in MMOs just because they are rich in RL pisses me off to no end. It's bad enough to be poor in RL. I am that guy whose refrigerator is empty the last week before the new months, so for me investing 15 dollar a month is MUCH, and IT IS THE LIMIT. But the consolation for me was: hey I can play a cool game, and for the imgame effort there I can be someone. And now, the same rich people who have it all in RL have it too in games. I am just so damn fed up and tired with games becoming like that! Take the recent EQ-Landmarks. SUPPOSED to be free!
Maybe I am just a damn foreigner who doesn't know the meaning of "free to play", but almost 100 Dollars does NOT sound very free to me! And for a blasted ALPHA TEST! And again people who have the bucks get the super clothing, the Nobility title, the exclusive land and whatnot. It was bad enough Cryptic with Neverwinter became such a money grab, but SOE with Everquest Next too? Sorry, but I am just royally angered about that.
Second: Time stealing. You see, unlike most MMO gamers I am a mortal. Meaning: I have ONE life and my lifetime is NOT endless. So at least for me, time is precious. I want to spent it with fun, entertaining and cool things. Like games. But at some point in gaming history, companies came to the conclusion there are easier ways make content and keep people playing OTHER than interesting content. So they invented grind.
Grind is the dangling carrot you can never achieve. Like the achievements in GW2 I currently tried. Take Season 1 WvW achievement. Kill 225 Sentries. Kill 200 enemy Yaks. Conquer 50 Merc Camps. Yeah 50 sounds easy. But try it. I either came too late, the Camps were already swapped or 10 enemies await you and wipe you. I tried to get Merc Camps, and I did that 3 days, each day ~ 8 hours and I got 15. From 24 hours of my limited, mortal lifetime.
That's where I logged out and thought: what the fuck am I doing here?
I am sitting in a virtual castle, gazing at a map, waiting for little swords to turn grey. Wow. What excitement. What a meaningful way to spent my ONE MORTAL LIMITED LIFETIME GOD GAVE ME.
You know I think we are just getting MADE addicted by companies. No, I am dead serioues. They always add faction points, and tokens and achievements... always a higher carrot, always a new shiny, and you tread and tread and tread in your tiny hamster wheel, ALWAYS being deceived by the hope to get something. Only you don't. We are being pre-programmed and brainwashed to ENJOY the grind, to enjoy the addicition. Yes, it is conscious, planned, purposefully done addiction these companies do with all their faction points and tokens and achievement lists! And I am so angry they do this, and even more angry I fell into that trap. That I hoped for ONCE by working hard I could BE someone.
In a fucking, stupid virtual game. Which was supposed to be fun and escapism. And now, all is work, war and torment and addiction and it ruins lifes.
Maybe you pause one time and think what the frack you are doing with your life.
/rant over
Its you and only who can stop this!
If you realy like games so much, well my friend there still plenty of games out there that cost you almost nothing and don't favor the rich. If you have constantly problems with others that can pay alot for advantage or buy more shinys then you well you should seek another hobby not involved materials.
Thats reality of CAPITALISM accept it or adept and seek that what not is involved with money and power.
Its only you that can stop this problem.
If your poor and want same as rich then i advice step back and think about this carefully becouse you have a problem my friend.
Dont buy and dont play those games problem solved.
I realy don't understand why it bothered you so much i realy don't?
It bothered me at all i just ignore it and will never play games that split games in sections for the rich and poor, they won't get a dime out of me(and i can easly afford alot every month but i refuse)
I play solo RPG'S with mods involved ive got more friends there then i had in LAST 12 years in mmo's.
And great things is when im playing noone can influence me in any i do or how i wanne play.
I mod my game as i see fit and enjoy its so great!
But on forums we share ideas help one another with problems involve mods and PC and its great community.
But there still mmo's out there where you won't encounter your problems you have to search little better.
Going for all the HYPED games here(its clear now after all thse topics ive read from you you go HYPE) on this site then its your own fault your in trouble now.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.
Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?
And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.
Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.
Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.
I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.
Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?
And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.
Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
/facepalm/peelfaceoff
I can see them trying this. They already paid for Dez Bryant to have his own babysitters to keep him out of trouble.
To draw back to the main point, money will almost always give you an unfair advantage. It's a sad fact of reality, but a sad fact all the same. It makes the world go round.
These companies are here to make money, and in the end that is all they really care about. You can say the same for any business.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
I think a lot of people trying to say its in our power to not play, are ignoring an important aspect of democracy and lobbying our opinions.
See the thing is, a business, can be very powerful when its support comes from something that is not going to forward our interest in games for example, and also exploits certain elements which are not defined as unethical.
For example, teen rated MMOs exploit teenagers that have a lot of time on thier hand. Also MMOs have a unique advantage now compared to before. They can get a demographic from billions of potential customers with varying tastes. So hoping that supply and demand play a role to shape a game to all our interests is not going to happen... 1. MMOs exploit teenagers, and 2. The potential market is so huge that they just follow a certain established standard of video gaming which unfortunately is becoming less enjoyable and they will be profitable.
The MMO genre does not follow the same scrutiny as other businesses, and that is the major problem imo.
They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.
If MMOs are not held to a certain standard like other businesses then we would all be worse off in the world. However, these standards help everyone in the end. It might have a greater cost to a business but in the end if society benefits, everyone benefits including businesses that want to be part of a long contributing future instead of leeching on to whatever scraps are available.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.
Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.
I think my point was made well enough.
You analogy was completely flawed - since professional sport is quite a lot about big money.
Even college sports is about big money. It isnt supposed to be, but it is all the same.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Look, the point is this: Back in Everquest II I became noble and "Sir" Elikal after years of hard work IN THE GAME. I did a lot of status quests for my guild. Now in EQ Landmarks you BUY a title for $90. THAT is what is plain wrong, because games SHOULD NOT BE about how much money you have, but how good, patient and dedicated IN the game you are.
Being able to BUY all that stuff makes it worthless and ruins all sense of accomplishment!
Actually, you could say this about real life also and it would be just as true.
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.
Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.
I think my point was made well enough.
You analogy was completely flawed - since professional sport is quite a lot about big money.
You can focus on that tiny little piece of the post if you like but it in no way discredits the information contained within. [mod edit]
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted. Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it? And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth. Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem... Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season... /facepalm/peelfaceoff
But how come it came so far then to piont you discribe games status?.. i started play mmo's sinds '99 and not spent 1 eurocent ever on DLC OR CASHSHOPS.
Is the group i belong to so small?
It seems so becouse many who claim hating everything involved cashshops or RMT hate it but still playing them lol(know few gamers who hate casshops but still playing and spent money on cashshops lol).
Its indeed long gone the times that players dont mind timesink-difficulty to earn there satus and gear actually playing for it.
Thats why i abandon GW2 early this year and play solo games.
Im amazed how easy people spending more on games then in subcription era but with less depth and easy gameplay just so they brag about that they have bought(not accomplished but bought) its all beyond me.
Well have fun guys buying your way to top.
GAMEOVER!
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
I am actually started thinking of how to purge my system from them.
Step 1: Log off the forums.
Step 2: Dunno, never made it to step 2.
But OP: What you're doing here is equivalent to complaining about how hard it is to stop using crack while sitting in a crack house.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
Aye, and it's even more fascinating when you consider that the OP praises the old subscription based model in his thread title post, which involved buying the initial box, paying a fee every month (or you can't play at all) and paying for each expansion.
At least in a F2P game, a person with low income can still play even if he can't pay anything a specific month. Seems way more "poor friendly" to me than the old model.
Yes but his argument was never the cost or that it should be free ( or not free enough ) It's that he doesn't want the different pay scales and all the things that come with paying more vrs paying less.
Right now we see a range from $20-100 and most gamers are fine with it. That doesn't mean we wont start to see those numbers go up. When they do what do they start to offer ? I don't want to bring pay to win into this but if we become desensitized to it, they will add it if it brings in more money.
I do kind of empathize with him but it's just a fact in life that people with money will always have more toys.
It can only go up if players want it to. It's only where it is because players want it there.
Which is the more likely scenario:
1)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Go for it."
Players: "Oh! That's stuff I want at a price I am willing to pay. I will buy that."
2)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Nah. Except for those seven industry-savvy business mavens at MMORPG.com that think every gamer is a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot except them, everyone IS a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot. Put out crap and make them buy it!"
Players: "I - am - stupid. Must - buy - thing - simply - because - it - exists."
To all but the magnificent seven here, it's obviously the first one. As for empathizing for him, that's ridiculous. It's the most entitled and self-centered view I've ever seen come out of a gamer over the age of five. He's talking about the ALPHA for a video game, not even the game itself, because that's FREE. He's upset others get to play a video game before him because they have money and he's just an unemployed artist.
Look, it's all fine and good to take his post as if it is an altruistic plea for peace/love/equality posted in a vaccuum, but if you look at his post history, he's been going on about how the rich get to be rich in game and the poor are stuck being poor in game for quite a few threads now. That angle wasn't working for him, so he took the shotgun approach in this one including the How can you waste your life playing video games? appeal and the ever-lovable Where is the equality? angle. That last one got traction because, unlike the first, it allows people to point outward rather than look inward.
His argument has always been that he feels it's unfair that people with more money have more things than him. Flat out saying that hasn't really worked for him, so the laundry list of appeals showed up in the gem of an OP we have here in hopes that one sticks. Don't take my word for it, look at his post history.
Next year he can play a multimillion dollar game for FREE, but he doesn't want to wait until then and he finds it unfair that people with money can play it before him. THAT is exactly his argument and if you actually look at his post history and his video, everything else is fluff to garner sympathy for his cause - he feels it's unfair that other people have games that he wants because they have the money to buy it, even though he will still get it for FREE just at a later date.
Dude, that stuff is coming from an ADULT! That's the mind-blowing part. You look at his video and he isn't eight years old or anything... he's an adult saying this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The only ones defending F2P is the middleclass who have just enough money to throw into games that they can feel better than everyone else, so they keep throwing a couple of hundred bucks into every bad "free" game that releases.
It would be great if at least some of you who share Elikal's view could go a post or two without straw men, wild assumptions and sweeping generalizations about other people. I know better than to ask the insults to stop, but the other stuff really obfuscates the issue.
Thanks!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Yeah, that's usually the response people get when they advocate personal responsibility these days...
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
I'm not sure I understand you. From what I know of Landmark it's a game of competitve/co-operative creativity. Those players who will stand out will be those with the most impressive designs, not necessarily the ones with 'expensive robes' and titles. Your 'ingame work' is still what you will be measured by in this game. As an unemployed artist, you should have a natural advantage here - both in terms of your creative capability and the time you have available.
I agree with being responsible for you own actions, but the thread was never about going bankrupt in F2P games, you guys take any chance to step on someone to feel better about yourselves lol.
OP is talking about the experience you get when your rich compared to poor, and also the social divide it creates in-game..
Not to mention that you're not even getting a full game when it's "free to play", and now they want money for founder packs with early access for a free game.. We can just NOT pay, your right.. But the poor wants to play all these games just as much as the rich.. If you personally was left out of every alpha / beta / headstart, you'd feel terrible as well.
So, try again.
How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I could not agree with you more.
I cannot earn a lot of money because of an illness, NOT because of bad choices in life!(saw some dumb comments about that which pissed me off!).
Being poor IRL is not much fun, but games, and especially mmo's, gave me the feeling I could be a rich character owning a huge house and awesome gear. But now spoiled kids and people with money that are willing to spend loads of cash on gear, vanity items, etc make me feel just as poor ingame.
SAD.
If you want a 25% of a game, sure F2P is great.
Buy a box and pay every month is poor friendly, poor where I live is not 3rd world country poor, we don't go to the river to wash our ass.
With P2P everyone could get the game, and pay those 15 bucks every month and have endless hours of entertainment.. And everyone would be equal in game, you couldn't tell rich from poor.
F2P is a constant pressure to go visit the shop so you can be as cool as the new grad engineer guy on page 1.
We all know it's bullshit, P2P worked fine, and the only reason they moved to F2P is because rich idiots throw around their money on the internet.. They took advantage, and now all we get are halfbaked "free" games with 100 dollar founder packs.
The only ones defending F2P is the middleclass who have just enough money to throw into games that they can feel better than everyone else, so they keep throwing a couple of hundred bucks into every bad "free" game that releases.
Grats.
Yeap... especially noone have to buy or is forced to buy those foundry packs.. is everyone that impatient to wait a few more month to get all that for free? And yeah.. if you want to be heavy involved into landmark you have to spend a few bucks most probably... but will it be more than the box price + monthly subscriptions for usually a few years? I somewhat doubt it.. and even more with as limited time as the op seem to have.
Sometimes i think most games believe the gaming industry have to be a non commercial organisation. They have to earn money, they have to get the investment back and a nice profit margin for investors and shareholders.
Do i like all F2P models? No. But F2P is not the devil. Hence there are F2P games, where you can actually play the entire game without any disadvantage for free like DoTA2.
The problem with F2P and MMOs is foremost the extremely high investment.. the development cost of any MMO is usually ten time as much as for a MOBA without attracting necessary more people.. and with that said it is not really surprising that they have to get more money from their cash shops, and withit not everything is for free.
And last but not least as usual the consumer has the last word what kind of cashshop is acceptable for the consumer.. if you don't like certain cashshops, certain F2P or kind of P2W games.. just don't play that game, just don't invest into those cashshops, and instead invest some money in a cashshop where you really don't need to invest(like in DoTA2). Leave your message with your money.
But i do understand the generall mood from a lot of veteran gamers.. the industry has changed. In the past there were a lot of garage developer, enthusiasts, where money was not the most important driving force.. now it is a mainstream economic sector with a lot of incorporated companies, where money/profit is the driving force. In the past it was for a lot of developer more of a hobby, now it is a business.
Yes but his argument was never the cost or that it should be free ( or not free enough ) It's that he doesn't want the different pay scales and all the things that come with paying more vrs paying less.
Right now we see a range from $20-100 and most gamers are fine with it. That doesn't mean we wont start to see those numbers go up. When they do what do they start to offer ? I don't want to bring pay to win into this but if we become desensitized to it, they will add it if it brings in more money.
I do kind of empathize with him but it's just a fact in life that people with money will always have more toys.
Veruca, honey, don't mess with the nuts, or the squirrels.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Its you and only who can stop this!
If you realy like games so much, well my friend there still plenty of games out there that cost you almost nothing and don't favor the rich.
If you have constantly problems with others that can pay alot for advantage or buy more shinys then you well you should seek another hobby not involved materials.
Thats reality of CAPITALISM accept it or adept and seek that what not is involved with money and power.
Its only you that can stop this problem.
If your poor and want same as rich then i advice step back and think about this carefully becouse you have a problem my friend.
Dont buy and dont play those games problem solved.
I realy don't understand why it bothered you so much i realy don't?
It bothered me at all i just ignore it and will never play games that split games in sections for the rich and poor, they won't get a dime out of me(and i can easly afford alot every month but i refuse)
I play solo RPG'S with mods involved ive got more friends there then i had in LAST 12 years in mmo's.
And great things is when im playing noone can influence me in any i do or how i wanne play.
I mod my game as i see fit and enjoy its so great!
But on forums we share ideas help one another with problems involve mods and PC and its great community.
But there still mmo's out there where you won't encounter your problems you have to search little better.
Going for all the HYPED games here(its clear now after all thse topics ive read from you you go HYPE) on this site then its your own fault your in trouble now.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.
Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?
And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.
Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...
Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...
/facepalm/peelfaceoff
So basically
In pass : pay money to play the game and get fun from it
Current : Pay money to win the game and get ??? from it
that's the direction allot of these mmos are heading.
Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.
I think my point was made well enough.
I can see them trying this. They already paid for Dez Bryant to have his own babysitters to keep him out of trouble.
To draw back to the main point, money will almost always give you an unfair advantage. It's a sad fact of reality, but a sad fact all the same. It makes the world go round.
These companies are here to make money, and in the end that is all they really care about. You can say the same for any business.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
I think a lot of people trying to say its in our power to not play, are ignoring an important aspect of democracy and lobbying our opinions.
See the thing is, a business, can be very powerful when its support comes from something that is not going to forward our interest in games for example, and also exploits certain elements which are not defined as unethical.
For example, teen rated MMOs exploit teenagers that have a lot of time on thier hand. Also MMOs have a unique advantage now compared to before. They can get a demographic from billions of potential customers with varying tastes. So hoping that supply and demand play a role to shape a game to all our interests is not going to happen... 1. MMOs exploit teenagers, and 2. The potential market is so huge that they just follow a certain established standard of video gaming which unfortunately is becoming less enjoyable and they will be profitable.
The MMO genre does not follow the same scrutiny as other businesses, and that is the major problem imo.
They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.
If MMOs are not held to a certain standard like other businesses then we would all be worse off in the world. However, these standards help everyone in the end. It might have a greater cost to a business but in the end if society benefits, everyone benefits including businesses that want to be part of a long contributing future instead of leeching on to whatever scraps are available.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Even college sports is about big money. It isnt supposed to be, but it is all the same.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Actually, you could say this about real life also and it would be just as true.
You can focus on that tiny little piece of the post if you like but it in no way discredits the information contained within. [mod edit]
But how come it came so far then to piont you discribe games status?.. i started play mmo's sinds '99 and not spent 1 eurocent ever on DLC OR CASHSHOPS.
Is the group i belong to so small?
It seems so becouse many who claim hating everything involved cashshops or RMT hate it but still playing them lol(know few gamers who hate casshops but still playing and spent money on cashshops lol).
Its indeed long gone the times that players dont mind timesink-difficulty to earn there satus and gear actually playing for it.
Thats why i abandon GW2 early this year and play solo games.
Im amazed how easy people spending more on games then in subcription era but with less depth and easy gameplay just so they brag about that they have bought(not accomplished but bought) its all beyond me.
Well have fun guys buying your way to top.
GAMEOVER!
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Step 1: Log off the forums.
Step 2: Dunno, never made it to step 2.
But OP: What you're doing here is equivalent to complaining about how hard it is to stop using crack while sitting in a crack house.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It can only go up if players want it to. It's only where it is because players want it there.
Which is the more likely scenario:
1)
2)
To all but the magnificent seven here, it's obviously the first one. As for empathizing for him, that's ridiculous. It's the most entitled and self-centered view I've ever seen come out of a gamer over the age of five. He's talking about the ALPHA for a video game, not even the game itself, because that's FREE. He's upset others get to play a video game before him because they have money and he's just an unemployed artist.
Look, it's all fine and good to take his post as if it is an altruistic plea for peace/love/equality posted in a vaccuum, but if you look at his post history, he's been going on about how the rich get to be rich in game and the poor are stuck being poor in game for quite a few threads now. That angle wasn't working for him, so he took the shotgun approach in this one including the How can you waste your life playing video games? appeal and the ever-lovable Where is the equality? angle. That last one got traction because, unlike the first, it allows people to point outward rather than look inward.
His argument has always been that he feels it's unfair that people with more money have more things than him. Flat out saying that hasn't really worked for him, so the laundry list of appeals showed up in the gem of an OP we have here in hopes that one sticks. Don't take my word for it, look at his post history.
Next year he can play a multimillion dollar game for FREE, but he doesn't want to wait until then and he finds it unfair that people with money can play it before him. THAT is exactly his argument and if you actually look at his post history and his video, everything else is fluff to garner sympathy for his cause - he feels it's unfair that other people have games that he wants because they have the money to buy it, even though he will still get it for FREE just at a later date.
Dude, that stuff is coming from an ADULT! That's the mind-blowing part. You look at his video and he isn't eight years old or anything... he's an adult saying this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It would be great if at least some of you who share Elikal's view could go a post or two without straw men, wild assumptions and sweeping generalizations about other people. I know better than to ask the insults to stop, but the other stuff really obfuscates the issue.
Thanks!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre