Yes, I think they'll pretty much have to do so. The reason is one word... "competition". Yes, the number of online gamers has grown. The amount of money being brought in in revenue in total in the INDUSTRY has grown. However it has not grown nearly enough to keep pace with the number of online games being offered. There are litteraly THOUSANDS of MMO's and MMO-like games out there competing for all that money. That didn't used to be the case so long ago.
It's also the reason why many of the big-budget AAA offerings have struggled to meet thier expectations financialy in recent years. Games that have a huge budget have to capture a VERY LARGE segment of the market that's out there for gaming dollars and that's difficult precisely because there is so much competition. Despite the size of the market, there is only room for just so many big-budget AAA titles to make a proffit that justifies the money poured into making them. Remember, that for big budget titles that require large capital they not only have to turn a simple proffit, they have to turn a proffit that was worth the 5 year high risk investment that it took to make them. If I want a simple proffit, as an investor, I can go out and buy a mutual fund tommorow and get that without much risk and be largely liquid.
That's why "niche" games pretty much HAVE to be the future of this type of gaming....and I think there is ample evidence that they are. They don't need the vast up-front capital investments that the AAA's do.....so they don't need to capture the huge audience segments that those do to be proffitable.....and they can really try to identify and capture audience segments that don't have much competition so they have a decent chance of wining those customers rather then fighting tooth and nail against thousands of competitors. The key is that they can't provide and can't setup expectations to provide all the features that the AAA's can. However they CAN take advantage of more readly available technology and some less expensive technologies to provide some basic features that aren't half-way bad and then focus on those "niche" things that thier audience is really looking for. Alot of these may not be "real" MMO's in the way we traditionaly define them......but that's ok too, they can be fun online games still.
That's why "niche" games pretty much HAVE to be the future of this type of gaming....and I think there is ample evidence that they are. They don't need the vast up-front capital investments that the AAA's do.....
But why settle for a game built to A or AA standards, when the original AAA games (oooh, feels dated! the graphixz!) are still open?
Isn't dated (booo) and lower quality (booo)a non-choice between tasteless poached chicken and poached turkey? Might as well stick with the evil you already know, yes?
To those who fail to understand where and how the genre is falling short of what it could be, my guess is you'd miss the point of an arrow shot into your leg.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
well all the genres lack in genuine fresh ideas, since RS alpha testing, Lineage 1/pre2, and a few others that you can barely count, all you can find are just clones of other clones that in the end tend to present themselves as "genuine" but shet some of them even use the same shet down to engines/models/sprites/etcs, till the only thing that differs are their names and colors.
yet again im still waiting to find/see a game that could beat Lineage's PvP or Castle Siege's.
ps: i would rather play tetris on my como64 th;n waste any seconds on shets like WoW, the so-called AAA that you're blabing about.
and been waiting for .... years.... same shet repeating, as if, time is the reason, to reason.
There's enough scope withing the genre to support both niche and more 'all encompassing' MMOs. Having too much of any one type though is where the problems come in, and I think that has been a problem in the past due to the number of EQ/WoW/EQ2 clones that came out when the MMO market was more in it's infancy.
Niche games can definitely be successful and add value. As an analogy, look at the recent film 'Gravity', it was quite the success, but did it try to 'have a bit of everything' like many hollywood 'blockbusters' do these days? No, it didn't. It focused on one thing and did it very well, and the results speak for themselves. Niche games too should aim to do just that; one or two things, but do them well.
Originally posted by Kyleran To those who fail to understand where and how the genre is falling short of what it could be, my guess is you'd miss the point of an arrow shot into your leg.
To make me a guard in Skyrim, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There is a lot of gloom and doom surrounding the longevity of the entire MMO genre, if you consider the small percentage of gloomers & doomers on this forum to be "a lot".
Some posters simply never recovered from the realization that Rock beats Scissors, or that a bishop only moves diagonally, so they will pour vinegar into everyone else's cereal for the remainder of their days.
That doesn't mean the end of the gaming world is near; it means a relatively small portion of this forum's community has a lifetime supply of sourness to share.
+1
The one thing this forum has no shortage of is ignorant experts, that think everyone wants what they do.
Originally posted by Kyleran To those who fail to understand where and how the genre is falling short of what it could be, my guess is you'd miss the point of an arrow shot into your leg.
falling short of what it could be and 'dying' are two different things though.
i have no desire to play MMOs in their current state because they don't offer me what i like, which is immersive RPGs, and strategy games. current MMOs have nothing for me but asthetics = not worth the money and dedication.
i just come here to check in on the genre tbh.
many people on this site claim that the genre is dying, but that isn't true at all. it is ever-growing, and that will never change as long as society remains intact. there is no going back on this. as years pass, more and more games are online, and MMOs will always have a place, even if they never go the direction that you and me would like to see them go. but i assure you, this is not a dying genre. just a bad one, imo.
Well consider this most mmorpgs before the rise of WOW all played to "Niche" markets including WOW itself. They all tried to attract one audience and do certain things well. UO, DAOC, Everquest, EVE, AC. None of those games were alike at all and all of them are better than nay of the mass homogenized CRAP they call an mmo today and they all predate WOW. WOW itself was merely aiming at its RTS fanbase who liked those games and its just something they wanted to do, not something they did to milk a few million teenagers out of their money for a few months. Now you have an entire generation of kids who expect all mmos to be fly by night trash that they can dispose of and for some reason dont feel bad throwing their money away on it.
But if you wanted to properly make a Star Wars, Elder scrolls, Warhammer, Dungeons and dragons mmo, bad news, you wont be doing it with a WOW/DAOC clone. Take any game from the past and force them to use the god awful business practices of modern companies then you end up with EVE online being a 3 faction based non pvp game with mini games of ship battle, 50 foot raid bosses and all other kinds of stupid crap that has no place in that fiction. Like Jedi with mailboxes, thats so #%$#%$ stupid.
There is a lot of gloom and doom surrounding the longevity of the entire MMO genre, if you consider the small percentage of gloomers & doomers on this forum to be "a lot".
This, not sure why this site attracts so many melodramatic forum whiners.
100 times this
You People don't understand WHY there are "so many melodramatic" People that visit these forums?
Are you serious?
For as smart as I think some of you are that is the stupidest thing any of you ever posted here.
There is a very REAL reason shy this site has so many melodramatic / passionate / emotional People that post here....
Get your head out of "the Now" and think back to years ago... unless you are too young that is.... think back to what kinds of People were attracted to the first MMORPGs..... mmo RPGs.... child of the Role Playing Games....
Just think about it. It's not that hard to figure out. If you want a gaming genre that does not attract such People than YOU ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE.
You want the Console Gaming Genre, it's down the Hall...
Oh wait...
(this is why mixing the genres is BAD)
You want a MMORPG gaming genre free of melodramatic People? Well do you?
Then take all the Role Play out of MMORPGs (for that is what attracts us), and if that doesn't work start banning us one by one as you identify who we are.
Then you would have a gaming genre free of melodramatic whiney People.
and maybe this is already being done... one MMO at a time... by how the games are designed, and by to whom the games are marketed to...... that's not doom and gloom, it's seeing things as they are and not liking it. It's just that when People who like to Role Play see their genre change over time in a direction they don't agree with they tend to get emotional about it.... but that FITS because Role Players are more comfortable with emotions and excessive emotions... we don't see it as a bad thing.
Like I said above, the answer is simple if you think about it. There are some very real and logical reasons why we see so many "melodramatic" Posters on these Forums.
And the fact that I had to explain this is NOT a good sign.
MMORPGs were Niche in the beginning because the product was made for a Customer Group that was the very definition of "Niche". If the Genre in some ways is returning to Niche than I see this as a healthy thing for this genre.
I have always seen the MMORPG genre as an Art form FIRST and a business second, in that order. Any changes to the MMORPG genre that re-emphasis this order of priorities I see as a good thing for the genre. The designing of MMORPGs in more of a "niche" fashion usually results in that MMORPG emphasizing the Art over Profit.
There is also on one further slight small advantage to targeting a specific demographic or small set of demographics.
Personal investment by the creation team. In the cookie cutter mmo's of today they are forced to fill checkboxes and design by spreadsheet. This hampers both creativity (in something that should be by it's very nature a creative process) and forces them to design "hooks" instead of systems they themselves would actually want to play.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may. I mean personally I would rather play a game produced by someone who loved it than someone who did it for a paycheck. You can definitely tell the difference.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is a lot of gloom and doom surrounding the longevity of the entire MMO genre, if you consider the small percentage of gloomers & doomers on this forum to be "a lot".
This, not sure why this site attracts so many melodramatic forum whiners.
100 times this
You People don't understand WHY there are "so many melodramatic" People that visit these forums?
Are you serious?
For as smart as I think some of you are that is the stupidest thing any of you ever posted here.
There is a very REAL reason shy this site has so many melodramatic / passionate / emotional People that post here....
Get your head out of "the Now" and think back to years ago... unless you are too young that is.... think back to what kinds of People were attracted to the first MMORPGs..... mmo RPGs.... child of the Role Playing Games....
Just think about it. It's not that hard to figure out. If you want a gaming genre that does not attract such People than YOU ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE.
You want the Console Gaming Genre, it's down the Hall...
A couple things. First off, a lot of other sites don't have the same crowd, and the question wasn't "Why are you whining?" It was "Why does this site attract so many of you?"
The other thing is you suggest they are stupid for questioning the melodrama (which actually wasn't their question) but think about it... you just said the ones whining are all the ones that know the history, have grown up with the games and are adults now. So, yeah, if someone was to question why this crowd is melodramatic, it isn't really a stupid question because the crowd that's down with the drama is mostly adults that should know better but instead take a holier than thou atttiude toward the topic, shooing off anyone that disagrees with them as "kiddies" or people that want "easy mode" or "console gamers".
You then close your post with about how your coveted preference is an art first and foremost and business second and DAMN I wish I had a basket of rose petals to gleefully toss around the room as I type this.
So, instead of insulting someone whose views are far more grounded in reality than you will ever realize, consider that maybe they know something that you clearly don't and, in that light, you might possibly learn something from them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A couple things. First off, a lot of other sites don't have the same crowd, and the question wasn't "Why are you whining?" It was "Why does this site attract so many of you?"
The other thing is you suggest they are stupid for questioning the melodrama (which actually wasn't their question) but think about it... you just said the ones whining are all the ones that know the history, have grown up with the games and are adults now. So, yeah, if someone was to question why this crowd is melodramatic, it isn't really a stupid question because the crowd that's down with the drama is mostly adults that should know better but instead take a holier than thou atttiude toward the topic, shooing off anyone that disagrees with them as "kiddies" or people that want "easy mode" or "console gamers".
You then close your post with about how your coveted preference is an art first and foremost and business second and DAMN I wish I had a basket of rose petals to gleefully toss around the room as I type this.
So, instead of insulting someone whose views are far more grounded in reality than you will ever realize, consider that maybe they know something that you clearly don't and, in that light, you might possibly learn something from them.
Well said
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
My point was if your dev team works purely on an assembly line mentality just checking things off a list, they will have exactly that much incentive to devote or even care about whether a feature set or system is actually enjoyable. These days, It just puts a heavier load on your QA dept to play test it since the creation team as often or not couldn't care less, they get paid either way.
EDIT A different way to look at it, look at your companies IT dept. How personally invested in the success of your company are they. If a user/manager asks for a system/feature set; do they get exactly what they asked for whether it's a good idea or not or do they get what they need? Hell just look at the ACA for an epic example of a design by the numbers approach.
Here's the good news guys and gals: There is an upside to the disparity between the easily accessible, casual-commitment, system-content-driven models of modern mmorpgs inspired by post-WoW market growth and the virtual world model of deep rpg mechanics, emotional roleplaying investment, community-building models that hearken back to the spirit of the games that gave birth to the genre. Seriously.
The debate between proponents of the modern model and the proponents of the classic model is largely academic. The growth of the marketplace due to the influx of gamers not only from other genres, but other mediums (consoles) shows no sign of stopping, and a market has been created that no amount of impassioned pontification in defense of the spirit that birthed the genre will diminish.
No stopping this train. And it's a GOOD thing.
Now, I am not a fan of the current model. I, like many, chafe at the thought of communities built around reputation anonymity, easily-consumable content, instanced experiences that isolate players, fast leveling and travel, and other design choices that emphasize casual, drop-in drop-out gameplay in any game I would play in this genre. That doesn't change the fact that many players do want this style of game and have spoken with their wallets.
I say good. I want the current model to flourish in every possible iteration of sub-genre (sci-fi, fantasy, pvp-centric, open-world, themepark-ish, etc) and provide a wealth of options for fans of flashy, fun, low-investment, casual mmorpgs. I want the market to continue to grow and for the expansions to rain down on us in a torrent of new, easily-consumable content clusters that provides the means for fast and satisfying progression through said content for players who seek amusement and approach mmorpgs as diversions or perhaps have busy schedules and prefer a less commitment-based gameplay experience that will be waiting for them whenever they want to pop in. Give me publishing juggernaut-funded instant gratification machines all day and all night, and make them awesome and unstoppable. Why?
Because it creates a vacuum that niche games can fill, and provides a larger market for those games to perhaps cull players from than would be possible without the existence of the modern, WoW-inspired model. It gives fans of the modern model games to play so that we can just wave to them from across the fence and say "Hey guys, hope you are having a blast! We are too!" The more this market grows, the more developer attention will be payed to the genre. The more attention it's given, the more games we will see. Niche games are more relevant than ever, and the more that mainstream games provide for casual players, the better chance we have at developing meaningful communities within these "niche" games relatively free from the influence of the very vocal instant gratification crowd, as they will already be provided for. And who knows how many gamers who would never otherwise even hear about these niche games might be turned on to them by virtue of their participation in the steady influx of gamers from consoles, rts games, and fps games that the modern model embraces? Not every console gamer is an ADHD-riddled brat, and not every FPS player is a rude dudebro who is going to complain about the speed of leveling and/or traveling. Converts could become a common thing if both models are represented in a respectable fashion.
And if they don't like the commitment of a virtual world meant to be lived in rather than played through, then they have plenty of options with (hopefully) a wealth of games that provide for them. There can be both types of games, but those of us who don't like the current model have to speak with our wallets, obviously. As the impact of WoW's success dies down and the market become more "up for grabs" by other publishers and developers, more and more games will be available to cater to that market, making a smaller market for enthusiasts more viable.
In short, we can have both because there's more to go around.
Converting MMORPGs into games for players who don't like MMORPGs, will save the genre.
Oh wait, they've tried that.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
The real problem is that mainstream is too niche. They serve only quest hub themepark players. Many of whom this is all they ever tried. I think its flawed to say people are wanting to reach into the past. Its more like bringing the past into future like it likely would have developed WoW didn't change the whole dynamic of the genre success.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
MMOs didn't just come out of nowhere, they evolved out of muds and multiplayer rpgs. EQ and UO where not these games that just showed up one day, like people seem to think. This style of game had a following, they just never had games like this that where as " massive" or as visual/graphics focused. They absolutely had "must have" features, and UO probably had the longest list considering it came from a long line of rpgs.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
MMOs didn't just come out of nowhere, they evolved out of muds and multiplayer rpgs. EQ and UO where not these games that just showed up one day, like people seem to think. This style of game had a following, they just never had games like this that where as " massive" or as visual/graphics focused. They absolutely had "must have" features, and UO probably had the longest list considering it came from a long line of rpgs.
Where did I say they came out of no-where? I said, and let me repeat, they designed systems they wanted to play. They did not design based off a shopping list of features checking them off as they went along. And they certainly did not try to do some mass marketing push pulling in every swinging ____ regardless of play style.
We need a game with a good storyline ip and deep complex crafting and classes with variety even if they are unbalanced. Preferably pve only, because pvp causes pve abilities to be nerfed for pvp combat "balance", and I'm sick and tired of losing unique cool ability for boring homogenized pvp combat. Everyone has interrupts, everyone casts the same exact things in pvp so that they can all be balanced.
I want deep complicated crafting and alternate abilities, and truly unique classes. Awesome cosmetics and house decorating, and mounts, awesome clickies for buffs like on Everquest 1 and in-game long progressive quests like the Claymore/Soulfire/Epic quests in Everquest 2 that everyone can get, but not to impossibly long and hard competitive like World of Warcraft's legendary quests. All players should get the quest item if they killed the raid boss, not only 1 person .
That is unfair that Everquest 1 epics made you wait in a line of 14 other people of your class, and everyone had to camp / kill the epic mobs 10 or 20 times for their epics for the entire raid force. So, please give us long challenging epic quests where we all get to update our quest, instead of just one person per a kill.
Awesome epic quests with truly unique graphics, and epics that are more than weapons, but other slots as well. I want the game to play like Everquest 1 with improved graphics and less boring AA. The Everquest aa is pretty boring reading through the text descriptions now.
With the current day technology, we could and should have some truly in-depth crafting systems more like Elder Scrolls , and a leveling for experimentation / refining etc. It would be so cool, if they made games more complicated instead of boring and simplistic.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
MMOs didn't just come out of nowhere, they evolved out of muds and multiplayer rpgs. EQ and UO where not these games that just showed up one day, like people seem to think. This style of game had a following, they just never had games like this that where as " massive" or as visual/graphics focused. They absolutely had "must have" features, and UO probably had the longest list considering it came from a long line of rpgs.
Yes and the same rules apply, I also still prefer MOO code. Those text based MUDs give a good example of how player markets work on a smaller scale. You have middle ground MUDs where most people actually play, mostly full pvp or restricted. The more hand holding MUDs are less popular, MUSH code games probably do not have the population however things like TinyTim do attract a certain audience its also the code mostly used by dare I say Furry online dungeons. And you have Full out PVP only games with constant PVP war, basically battlegrounds.
Besides MUDs don't forget the old BBS games like Usurper and Legend of the Red Dragon which were the old text based sub games. WOW itself was at least more like a DIKU Mud but oh god I wish they would buld something like Usurper in 3d ah the days of murdering people in their beds and getting my character addicted to strength enhancement drugs that drove him insane.
But the reason these modern mmorpgs fail is that if they were text based games, no one would play them. Honestly GW2 as a mud would be the most boring thing ever made and a non pvp MIUD has to offer a lot of other things to make it interesting more like a theme driven LPMud but they dont do that they just make a nondescript world with non interactive npcs with some themepark quest chains and scripted dungeon monsters, boring. Every non pvp MUD I gave the time of day to were crafter driven social games.
Forget making a single player game that just happens to be a mmorpg they cannot even make an mmo that can make it as a text based chat room these days. SWTOR as a text based MUD would have less to do than some of the Test worlds I have played on.
Originally posted by BMBender Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
Well, if SOE and Smedley and crew can be believed, the EverCracked documentary by Jase Hall (for SOE) kind of "hints" at that.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
MMOs didn't just come out of nowhere, they evolved out of muds and multiplayer rpgs. EQ and UO where not these games that just showed up one day, like people seem to think. This style of game had a following, they just never had games like this that where as " massive" or as visual/graphics focused. They absolutely had "must have" features, and UO probably had the longest list considering it came from a long line of rpgs.
Yes and the same rules apply, I also still prefer MOO code. Those text based MUDs give a good example of how player markets work on a smaller scale. You have middle ground MUDs where most people actually play, mostly full pvp or restricted. The more hand holding MUDs are less popular, MUSH code games probably do not have the population however things like TinyTim do attract a certain audience its also the code mostly used by dare I say Furry online dungeons. And you have Full out PVP only games with constant PVP war, basically battlegrounds.
Besides MUDs don't forget the old BBS games like Usurper and Legend of the Red Dragon which were the old text based sub games. WOW itself was at least more like a DIKU Mud but oh god I wish they would buld something like Usurper in 3d ah the days of murdering people in their beds and getting my character addicted to strength enhancement drugs that drove him insane.
But the reason these modern mmorpgs fail is that if they were text based games, no one would play them. Honestly GW2 as a mud would be the most boring thing ever made and a non pvp MIUD has to offer a lot of other things to make it interesting more like a theme driven LPMud but they dont do that they just make a nondescript world with non interactive npcs with some themepark quest chains and scripted dungeon monsters, boring. Every non pvp MUD I gave the time of day to were crafter driven social games.
Forget making a single player game that just happens to be a mmorpg they cannot even make an mmo that can make it as a text based chat room these days. SWTOR as a text based MUD would have less to do than some of the Test worlds I have played on.
Great post to read!
i wonder at each level what is lost:
1. PnP = Imagination
2. MUD = Simulation
3. MMORPG = a) Themepark = Combat b) Sandbox = Combat ++ and/or Lego
Comments
Yes, I think they'll pretty much have to do so. The reason is one word... "competition". Yes, the number of online gamers has grown. The amount of money being brought in in revenue in total in the INDUSTRY has grown. However it has not grown nearly enough to keep pace with the number of online games being offered. There are litteraly THOUSANDS of MMO's and MMO-like games out there competing for all that money. That didn't used to be the case so long ago.
It's also the reason why many of the big-budget AAA offerings have struggled to meet thier expectations financialy in recent years. Games that have a huge budget have to capture a VERY LARGE segment of the market that's out there for gaming dollars and that's difficult precisely because there is so much competition. Despite the size of the market, there is only room for just so many big-budget AAA titles to make a proffit that justifies the money poured into making them. Remember, that for big budget titles that require large capital they not only have to turn a simple proffit, they have to turn a proffit that was worth the 5 year high risk investment that it took to make them. If I want a simple proffit, as an investor, I can go out and buy a mutual fund tommorow and get that without much risk and be largely liquid.
That's why "niche" games pretty much HAVE to be the future of this type of gaming....and I think there is ample evidence that they are. They don't need the vast up-front capital investments that the AAA's do.....so they don't need to capture the huge audience segments that those do to be proffitable.....and they can really try to identify and capture audience segments that don't have much competition so they have a decent chance of wining those customers rather then fighting tooth and nail against thousands of competitors. The key is that they can't provide and can't setup expectations to provide all the features that the AAA's can. However they CAN take advantage of more readly available technology and some less expensive technologies to provide some basic features that aren't half-way bad and then focus on those "niche" things that thier audience is really looking for. Alot of these may not be "real" MMO's in the way we traditionaly define them......but that's ok too, they can be fun online games still.
But why settle for a game built to A or AA standards, when the original AAA games (oooh, feels dated! the graphixz!) are still open?
Isn't dated (booo) and lower quality (booo) a non-choice between tasteless poached chicken and poached turkey? Might as well stick with the evil you already know, yes?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
well all the genres lack in genuine fresh ideas, since RS alpha testing, Lineage 1/pre2, and a few others that you can barely count, all you can find are just clones of other clones that in the end tend to present themselves as "genuine" but shet some of them even use the same shet down to engines/models/sprites/etcs, till the only thing that differs are their names and colors.
yet again im still waiting to find/see a game that could beat Lineage's PvP or Castle Siege's.
ps: i would rather play tetris on my como64 th;n waste any seconds on shets like WoW, the so-called AAA that you're blabing about.
and been waiting for .... years.... same shet repeating, as if, time is the reason, to reason.
There's enough scope withing the genre to support both niche and more 'all encompassing' MMOs. Having too much of any one type though is where the problems come in, and I think that has been a problem in the past due to the number of EQ/WoW/EQ2 clones that came out when the MMO market was more in it's infancy.
Niche games can definitely be successful and add value. As an analogy, look at the recent film 'Gravity', it was quite the success, but did it try to 'have a bit of everything' like many hollywood 'blockbusters' do these days? No, it didn't. It focused on one thing and did it very well, and the results speak for themselves. Niche games too should aim to do just that; one or two things, but do them well.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
+1
The one thing this forum has no shortage of is ignorant experts, that think everyone wants what they do.
falling short of what it could be and 'dying' are two different things though.
i have no desire to play MMOs in their current state because they don't offer me what i like, which is immersive RPGs, and strategy games. current MMOs have nothing for me but asthetics = not worth the money and dedication.
i just come here to check in on the genre tbh.
many people on this site claim that the genre is dying, but that isn't true at all. it is ever-growing, and that will never change as long as society remains intact. there is no going back on this. as years pass, more and more games are online, and MMOs will always have a place, even if they never go the direction that you and me would like to see them go. but i assure you, this is not a dying genre. just a bad one, imo.
Well consider this most mmorpgs before the rise of WOW all played to "Niche" markets including WOW itself. They all tried to attract one audience and do certain things well. UO, DAOC, Everquest, EVE, AC. None of those games were alike at all and all of them are better than nay of the mass homogenized CRAP they call an mmo today and they all predate WOW. WOW itself was merely aiming at its RTS fanbase who liked those games and its just something they wanted to do, not something they did to milk a few million teenagers out of their money for a few months. Now you have an entire generation of kids who expect all mmos to be fly by night trash that they can dispose of and for some reason dont feel bad throwing their money away on it.
But if you wanted to properly make a Star Wars, Elder scrolls, Warhammer, Dungeons and dragons mmo, bad news, you wont be doing it with a WOW/DAOC clone. Take any game from the past and force them to use the god awful business practices of modern companies then you end up with EVE online being a 3 faction based non pvp game with mini games of ship battle, 50 foot raid bosses and all other kinds of stupid crap that has no place in that fiction. Like Jedi with mailboxes, thats so #%$#%$ stupid.
What's changed is unWOW-profits achieved for high expense and long dev. MMORPGs are still one of if not the most challenging game genre.
The race to shiniest graphics hasn't helped either.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
You People don't understand WHY there are "so many melodramatic" People that visit these forums?
Are you serious?
For as smart as I think some of you are that is the stupidest thing any of you ever posted here.
There is a very REAL reason shy this site has so many melodramatic / passionate / emotional People that post here....
Get your head out of "the Now" and think back to years ago... unless you are too young that is.... think back to what kinds of People were attracted to the first MMORPGs..... mmo RPGs.... child of the Role Playing Games....
Just think about it. It's not that hard to figure out. If you want a gaming genre that does not attract such People than YOU ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE.
You want the Console Gaming Genre, it's down the Hall...
Oh wait...
(this is why mixing the genres is BAD)
You want a MMORPG gaming genre free of melodramatic People? Well do you?
Then take all the Role Play out of MMORPGs (for that is what attracts us), and if that doesn't work start banning us one by one as you identify who we are.
Then you would have a gaming genre free of melodramatic whiney People.
and maybe this is already being done... one MMO at a time... by how the games are designed, and by to whom the games are marketed to...... that's not doom and gloom, it's seeing things as they are and not liking it. It's just that when People who like to Role Play see their genre change over time in a direction they don't agree with they tend to get emotional about it.... but that FITS because Role Players are more comfortable with emotions and excessive emotions... we don't see it as a bad thing.
Like I said above, the answer is simple if you think about it. There are some very real and logical reasons why we see so many "melodramatic" Posters on these Forums.
And the fact that I had to explain this is NOT a good sign.
MMORPGs were Niche in the beginning because the product was made for a Customer Group that was the very definition of "Niche". If the Genre in some ways is returning to Niche than I see this as a healthy thing for this genre.
I have always seen the MMORPG genre as an Art form FIRST and a business second, in that order. Any changes to the MMORPG genre that re-emphasis this order of priorities I see as a good thing for the genre. The designing of MMORPGs in more of a "niche" fashion usually results in that MMORPG emphasizing the Art over Profit.
There is also on one further slight small advantage to targeting a specific demographic or small set of demographics.
Personal investment by the creation team. In the cookie cutter mmo's of today they are forced to fill checkboxes and design by spreadsheet. This hampers both creativity (in something that should be by it's very nature a creative process) and forces them to design "hooks" instead of systems they themselves would actually want to play.
Early mmo's the creation teams made a game THEY wanted to play and let the market fall where it may. I mean personally I would rather play a game produced by someone who loved it than someone who did it for a paycheck. You can definitely tell the difference.
Which company are you suggesting did this ars gratia artis thing without extensive research to identify the size and interests of the target market? Sony? EA? Microsoft?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A couple things. First off, a lot of other sites don't have the same crowd, and the question wasn't "Why are you whining?" It was "Why does this site attract so many of you?"
The other thing is you suggest they are stupid for questioning the melodrama (which actually wasn't their question) but think about it... you just said the ones whining are all the ones that know the history, have grown up with the games and are adults now. So, yeah, if someone was to question why this crowd is melodramatic, it isn't really a stupid question because the crowd that's down with the drama is mostly adults that should know better but instead take a holier than thou atttiude toward the topic, shooing off anyone that disagrees with them as "kiddies" or people that want "easy mode" or "console gamers".
You then close your post with about how your coveted preference is an art first and foremost and business second and DAMN I wish I had a basket of rose petals to gleefully toss around the room as I type this.
So, instead of insulting someone whose views are far more grounded in reality than you will ever realize, consider that maybe they know something that you clearly don't and, in that light, you might possibly learn something from them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well said
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
UO DAOC to name a couple. Those markets didn't exists till they made a game they themselves enjoyed, people came along for the ride. As those markets did not exist prior there were no "must have" feature sets to check off a list. Witch in turn gave them the freedom to design something they had fun with. And those teams did indeed have fun with it, it was not uncommon for "Lord British" and the like to stage spontaneous events just playing and having fun.
My point was if your dev team works purely on an assembly line mentality just checking things off a list, they will have exactly that much incentive to devote or even care about whether a feature set or system is actually enjoyable. These days, It just puts a heavier load on your QA dept to play test it since the creation team as often or not couldn't care less, they get paid either way.
EDIT A different way to look at it, look at your companies IT dept. How personally invested in the success of your company are they. If a user/manager asks for a system/feature set; do they get exactly what they asked for whether it's a good idea or not or do they get what they need? Hell just look at the ACA for an epic example of a design by the numbers approach.
Here's the good news guys and gals: There is an upside to the disparity between the easily accessible, casual-commitment, system-content-driven models of modern mmorpgs inspired by post-WoW market growth and the virtual world model of deep rpg mechanics, emotional roleplaying investment, community-building models that hearken back to the spirit of the games that gave birth to the genre. Seriously.
The debate between proponents of the modern model and the proponents of the classic model is largely academic. The growth of the marketplace due to the influx of gamers not only from other genres, but other mediums (consoles) shows no sign of stopping, and a market has been created that no amount of impassioned pontification in defense of the spirit that birthed the genre will diminish.
No stopping this train. And it's a GOOD thing.
Now, I am not a fan of the current model. I, like many, chafe at the thought of communities built around reputation anonymity, easily-consumable content, instanced experiences that isolate players, fast leveling and travel, and other design choices that emphasize casual, drop-in drop-out gameplay in any game I would play in this genre. That doesn't change the fact that many players do want this style of game and have spoken with their wallets.
I say good. I want the current model to flourish in every possible iteration of sub-genre (sci-fi, fantasy, pvp-centric, open-world, themepark-ish, etc) and provide a wealth of options for fans of flashy, fun, low-investment, casual mmorpgs. I want the market to continue to grow and for the expansions to rain down on us in a torrent of new, easily-consumable content clusters that provides the means for fast and satisfying progression through said content for players who seek amusement and approach mmorpgs as diversions or perhaps have busy schedules and prefer a less commitment-based gameplay experience that will be waiting for them whenever they want to pop in. Give me publishing juggernaut-funded instant gratification machines all day and all night, and make them awesome and unstoppable. Why?
Because it creates a vacuum that niche games can fill, and provides a larger market for those games to perhaps cull players from than would be possible without the existence of the modern, WoW-inspired model. It gives fans of the modern model games to play so that we can just wave to them from across the fence and say "Hey guys, hope you are having a blast! We are too!" The more this market grows, the more developer attention will be payed to the genre. The more attention it's given, the more games we will see. Niche games are more relevant than ever, and the more that mainstream games provide for casual players, the better chance we have at developing meaningful communities within these "niche" games relatively free from the influence of the very vocal instant gratification crowd, as they will already be provided for. And who knows how many gamers who would never otherwise even hear about these niche games might be turned on to them by virtue of their participation in the steady influx of gamers from consoles, rts games, and fps games that the modern model embraces? Not every console gamer is an ADHD-riddled brat, and not every FPS player is a rude dudebro who is going to complain about the speed of leveling and/or traveling. Converts could become a common thing if both models are represented in a respectable fashion.
And if they don't like the commitment of a virtual world meant to be lived in rather than played through, then they have plenty of options with (hopefully) a wealth of games that provide for them. There can be both types of games, but those of us who don't like the current model have to speak with our wallets, obviously. As the impact of WoW's success dies down and the market become more "up for grabs" by other publishers and developers, more and more games will be available to cater to that market, making a smaller market for enthusiasts more viable.
In short, we can have both because there's more to go around.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Converting MMORPGs into games for players who don't like MMORPGs, will save the genre.
Oh wait, they've tried that.
MMOs didn't just come out of nowhere, they evolved out of muds and multiplayer rpgs. EQ and UO where not these games that just showed up one day, like people seem to think. This style of game had a following, they just never had games like this that where as " massive" or as visual/graphics focused. They absolutely had "must have" features, and UO probably had the longest list considering it came from a long line of rpgs.
Where did I say they came out of no-where? I said, and let me repeat, they designed systems they wanted to play. They did not design based off a shopping list of features checking them off as they went along. And they certainly did not try to do some mass marketing push pulling in every swinging ____ regardless of play style.
We need a game with a good storyline ip and deep complex crafting and classes with variety even if they are unbalanced. Preferably pve only, because pvp causes pve abilities to be nerfed for pvp combat "balance", and I'm sick and tired of losing unique cool ability for boring homogenized pvp combat. Everyone has interrupts, everyone casts the same exact things in pvp so that they can all be balanced.
I want deep complicated crafting and alternate abilities, and truly unique classes. Awesome cosmetics and house decorating, and mounts, awesome clickies for buffs like on Everquest 1 and in-game long progressive quests like the Claymore/Soulfire/Epic quests in Everquest 2 that everyone can get, but not to impossibly long and hard competitive like World of Warcraft's legendary quests. All players should get the quest item if they killed the raid boss, not only 1 person .
That is unfair that Everquest 1 epics made you wait in a line of 14 other people of your class, and everyone had to camp / kill the epic mobs 10 or 20 times for their epics for the entire raid force. So, please give us long challenging epic quests where we all get to update our quest, instead of just one person per a kill.
Awesome epic quests with truly unique graphics, and epics that are more than weapons, but other slots as well. I want the game to play like Everquest 1 with improved graphics and less boring AA. The Everquest aa is pretty boring reading through the text descriptions now.
With the current day technology, we could and should have some truly in-depth crafting systems more like Elder Scrolls , and a leveling for experimentation / refining etc. It would be so cool, if they made games more complicated instead of boring and simplistic.
Yes and the same rules apply, I also still prefer MOO code. Those text based MUDs give a good example of how player markets work on a smaller scale. You have middle ground MUDs where most people actually play, mostly full pvp or restricted. The more hand holding MUDs are less popular, MUSH code games probably do not have the population however things like TinyTim do attract a certain audience its also the code mostly used by dare I say Furry online dungeons. And you have Full out PVP only games with constant PVP war, basically battlegrounds.
Besides MUDs don't forget the old BBS games like Usurper and Legend of the Red Dragon which were the old text based sub games. WOW itself was at least more like a DIKU Mud but oh god I wish they would buld something like Usurper in 3d ah the days of murdering people in their beds and getting my character addicted to strength enhancement drugs that drove him insane.
But the reason these modern mmorpgs fail is that if they were text based games, no one would play them. Honestly GW2 as a mud would be the most boring thing ever made and a non pvp MIUD has to offer a lot of other things to make it interesting more like a theme driven LPMud but they dont do that they just make a nondescript world with non interactive npcs with some themepark quest chains and scripted dungeon monsters, boring. Every non pvp MUD I gave the time of day to were crafter driven social games.
Forget making a single player game that just happens to be a mmorpg they cannot even make an mmo that can make it as a text based chat room these days. SWTOR as a text based MUD would have less to do than some of the Test worlds I have played on.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Great post to read!
i wonder at each level what is lost:
1. PnP = Imagination
2. MUD = Simulation
3. MMORPG = a) Themepark = Combat b) Sandbox = Combat ++ and/or Lego
"Something gained ; something lost." ~ Mostly lost?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem