Unfortunately, WoW is what you want. I am prepared for me to get all-out flamed, but a fact of the matter is this: Out of the 7 million or 8 million or whatever subscribers, less than half of a percent complete relevant raid content before a patch is rolled out to nerf it to the floor. An even smaller fraction complete any of the heroic raid content whatsoever until they outgear it so much its not challenging. On a similar note, pet battles are thinking to the max. I hate to say it, but when I was 11 I played pokemon, and if you really look at it there is so much min/maxing its unbelievable. Same with pet battles. Going even further, players who PvP really must think the most. Watch a stream of PvP. If you want to "think", watch all of the people who are actually relevant in ARENAs and rated battlegrounds. It's astounding how much they know about every class, as well as managing cooldowns, and being completely aware of their team mates. Seriously, people can flame WoW all they want, but the reality is, it is the best MMORPG out there, most content, most to do, most aspects, cheap (black friday 75% off), and $15 a month sub. Plus with all of the hustle and bustle over the new expansion, you can guarantee the subs will skyrocket. You also know the game isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Sorry, I have a love/hate relationship with WoW, but there's a reason people keep coming back. It is the simplest most involved game ever. *Equips flame-retardant shield"
Originally posted by Horusra I am not saying your idea is bad. In this current market flash in the pan is what is being made. Long and difficult might make good niche but do not demand a lot upfront in way of graphics and development. Pacman beat out chess.
Although chess is still around and people have moved on from Pacman. It's certainly a design choice, and it would need to be embraced wholeheartedly. Skyrim actually follows the model I am thinking of, and it's been pretty damn popular -- and not necessarily "long and difficult." It's the difference between placing signposts and markers all over the place, and simply letting the world and story and puzzles reveal themselves through natural travel and exploration.
I know you said TSW didn't hook you but as someone else that wasn't immediately hooked either I felt this was worth mentioning. TSW took me many tries to actually get into but when I finally did it was quite rewarding. That being said one shouldn't have to repeatedly attempt to get into a game it should either hook you or not, but hey.... Regardless the quests really are unique with many of them requiring at least some deduction and problem solving. There are your standard quests which provide quest markers but their are numerous amounts that rely on your own savy and intelligence to figure out.
TSW might be worth another shot. Trying new weapon/power combos eventually helped me to find something I enjoyed.
I played through about three hours of the TSW trial and was unenthralled. Mash button, don't die, level, level, collect supplies, select skills, find pieces of paper, mash button, ugh... (pretty and mature, but boring as hell)
I'm looking for a game that requires a bit of strategy (similar to a card combat game) but also has the element of exploration and discovery. It needs to have some difficulty.
I'm hoping there is something I've over-looked or have forgotten about. I've been through most of them out there.
When you say thinking man's MMO do you mean reasoning or reacting? TSW is a game that requires people to think about the skills and stats they put on there action bar and gear but once you hit that first attack you only have 1 of 8 buttons you can push plus movement so your choices drop significantly. It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.
On the other end of the spectrum I have 7 bars of 10 abilities each on my Dirge in EQ2 of which probably 4 of them are active in combat abilities with 2 of them being things I use all the time. That's 20 abilities from second to second I have to choose between with 20 or so more that I might use as the need arises. There is much less up front planning since everything is in front of me but it requires much more second to second decision making during combat on how best to use the time slots I have for the situation I am in.
These are two examples of very different game play. Both have their strength and weaknesses and I enjoy both for different reasons.
Then of course there are the huge crop of games that have limited action bar's and little to no preplanning for skill placement. Those games tend to not last very long on my computer although some of them can be a fun distraction for a month or so.
I played through about three hours of the TSW trial and was unenthralled. Mash button, don't die, level, level, collect supplies, select skills, find pieces of paper, mash button, ugh... (pretty and mature, but boring as hell)
I'm looking for a game that requires a bit of strategy (similar to a card combat game) but also has the element of exploration and discovery. It needs to have some difficulty.
I'm hoping there is something I've over-looked or have forgotten about. I've been through most of them out there.
It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.
To be fair, it's really not necessary to plan out anything in the first zone. It's not until you get into the more difficult areas in Savage Coast and Blue Mountains where thinking about your build becomes truly necessary. The folks who don't have patience to get to that point of the game could easily assume that there's nothing more to combat.
Anarchy Online. This game got everything so right when progressing and equipping your character. I spent hours, days to figure out how to tweak my characters and to get better implants/symbiants in and when seriously twinking ofcourse laddering implants where used and whatnot. That said, the game is dead nowadays but it's getting a facelift when they release the new engine.
EVE Online has been a game I've enjoyed to play after Anarchy Online. EVE makes you think, plan and even consider what to do, where to do and when to do. It's "a thinking man's game" but different than Anarchy Online. If they someday make a game with the gamemechanics from these two games, I'll be subbed until dead for sure
secret world seems to be along those lines. Unfortunately everyone's likes and dislikes are so different, its hard to say what would be a good fit for many.
Sounds like the OP is after combat that involves thinking, rather than side puzzles. TSW has the side puzzles sorted, but the combat really is a faceroll. Vanguard doesn't have side puzzles, but the combat is definitely more thought invoking than most modern MMOs.
I played through about three hours of the TSW trial and was unenthralled. Mash button, don't die, level, level, collect supplies, select skills, find pieces of paper, mash button, ugh... (pretty and mature, but boring as hell)
I'm looking for a game that requires a bit of strategy (similar to a card combat game) but also has the element of exploration and discovery. It needs to have some difficulty.
I'm hoping there is something I've over-looked or have forgotten about. I've been through most of them out there.
It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.
To be fair, it's really not necessary to plan out anything in the first zone. It's not until you get into the more difficult areas in Savage Coast and Blue Mountains where thinking about your build becomes truly necessary. The folks who don't have patience to get to that point of the game could easily assume that there's nothing more to combat.
Once you get a good survival spec you don't really need to swap at all. Likewise for tanking / dps / healing in dungeons. Aside from a little coordination for buffs, I never had to swap out any skills to complete any content.
Good grief, sometimes I just despair. A thinking "man's" mmorpg? Really? And don't give me the old man = everyone bs. I would invite all men to step into the shoes of a woman for a second and imagine what it would be like to never see things addressed to the whole of humanity using the word "woman". Maybe ruminate for a second about just why it might be that man is (still being) used to mean all of us humans? Any links with patriarchy and power, I wonder?
Good grief, sometimes I just despair. A thinking "man's" mmorpg? Really? And don't give me the old man = everyone bs. I would invite all men to step into the shoes of a woman for a second and imagine what it would be like to never see things addressed to the whole of humanity using the word "woman". Maybe ruminate for a second about just why it might be that man is (still being) used to mean all of us humans? Any links with patriarchy and power, I wonder?
Is this really 2013?
Well, that was a hard left turn. man = mankind, which I know is old fashioned. But, yeah, person might have been a better word in 2013...
Good grief, sometimes I just despair. A thinking "man's" mmorpg? Really? And don't give me the old man = everyone bs. I would invite all men to step into the shoes of a woman for a second and imagine what it would be like to never see things addressed to the whole of humanity using the word "woman". Maybe ruminate for a second about just why it might be that man is (still being) used to mean all of us humans? Any links with patriarchy and power, I wonder?
Is this really 2013?
It is possible that everyone except you knew what was meant by "man's".
Good grief, sometimes I just despair. A thinking "man's" mmorpg? Really? And don't give me the old man = everyone bs. I would invite all men to step into the shoes of a woman for a second and imagine what it would be like to never see things addressed to the whole of humanity using the word "woman". Maybe ruminate for a second about just why it might be that man is (still being) used to mean all of us humans? Any links with patriarchy and power, I wonder?
Is this really 2013?
agreed. 'person' isn't that much harder to spell.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Comments
Although chess is still around and people have moved on from Pacman.
It's certainly a design choice, and it would need to be embraced wholeheartedly. Skyrim actually follows the model I am thinking of, and it's been pretty damn popular -- and not necessarily "long and difficult." It's the difference between placing signposts and markers all over the place, and simply letting the world and story and puzzles reveal themselves through natural travel and exploration.
shroud of the avatar end of next year,alpha and beta soon.
you will have to think there.but its a mo
I know you said TSW didn't hook you but as someone else that wasn't immediately hooked either I felt this was worth mentioning. TSW took me many tries to actually get into but when I finally did it was quite rewarding. That being said one shouldn't have to repeatedly attempt to get into a game it should either hook you or not, but hey.... Regardless the quests really are unique with many of them requiring at least some deduction and problem solving. There are your standard quests which provide quest markers but their are numerous amounts that rely on your own savy and intelligence to figure out.
TSW might be worth another shot. Trying new weapon/power combos eventually helped me to find something I enjoyed.
Steam: Neph
When you say thinking man's MMO do you mean reasoning or reacting? TSW is a game that requires people to think about the skills and stats they put on there action bar and gear but once you hit that first attack you only have 1 of 8 buttons you can push plus movement so your choices drop significantly. It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.
On the other end of the spectrum I have 7 bars of 10 abilities each on my Dirge in EQ2 of which probably 4 of them are active in combat abilities with 2 of them being things I use all the time. That's 20 abilities from second to second I have to choose between with 20 or so more that I might use as the need arises. There is much less up front planning since everything is in front of me but it requires much more second to second decision making during combat on how best to use the time slots I have for the situation I am in.
These are two examples of very different game play. Both have their strength and weaknesses and I enjoy both for different reasons.
Then of course there are the huge crop of games that have limited action bar's and little to no preplanning for skill placement. Those games tend to not last very long on my computer although some of them can be a fun distraction for a month or so.
To be fair, it's really not necessary to plan out anything in the first zone. It's not until you get into the more difficult areas in Savage Coast and Blue Mountains where thinking about your build becomes truly necessary. The folks who don't have patience to get to that point of the game could easily assume that there's nothing more to combat.
Sure and that's fine; perfectly okay to have guides and hint/answer books and websites... But the game should be playable without them.
Anarchy Online. This game got everything so right when progressing and equipping your character. I spent hours, days to figure out how to tweak my characters and to get better implants/symbiants in and when seriously twinking ofcourse laddering implants where used and whatnot. That said, the game is dead nowadays but it's getting a facelift when they release the new engine.
EVE Online has been a game I've enjoyed to play after Anarchy Online. EVE makes you think, plan and even consider what to do, where to do and when to do. It's "a thinking man's game" but different than Anarchy Online. If they someday make a game with the gamemechanics from these two games, I'll be subbed until dead for sure
+1 for this.
Sounds like the OP is after combat that involves thinking, rather than side puzzles. TSW has the side puzzles sorted, but the combat really is a faceroll. Vanguard doesn't have side puzzles, but the combat is definitely more thought invoking than most modern MMOs.
Once you get a good survival spec you don't really need to swap at all. Likewise for tanking / dps / healing in dungeons. Aside from a little coordination for buffs, I never had to swap out any skills to complete any content.
Good grief, sometimes I just despair. A thinking "man's" mmorpg? Really? And don't give me the old man = everyone bs. I would invite all men to step into the shoes of a woman for a second and imagine what it would be like to never see things addressed to the whole of humanity using the word "woman". Maybe ruminate for a second about just why it might be that man is (still being) used to mean all of us humans? Any links with patriarchy and power, I wonder?
Is this really 2013?
Well, that was a hard left turn.
man = mankind, which I know is old fashioned. But, yeah, person might have been a better word in 2013...
Language is funny that way and I don't mean it'll make you laugh. "Good grief" ~ what sort of grief is good?!
OP: Eve for complexity. UO for simulation emergence or MUDs? For building stuff like Minecraft.
Various categories. There Topia Online if it took of where you can script the world too.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It is possible that everyone except you knew what was meant by "man's".
agreed. 'person' isn't that much harder to spell.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse