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What is real life advantage in mmorpg's
Mr.Kujo
Member Posts: 383
I'm going to get so flamed for this, but the temptation is just to strong xD
All that hate going towards people who "pay to win", and all that talk about how it is unfair, and how everyone should be equal in a mmorpg, and no one should have any real life advantages over others....
How about this - let's say one of you fellow players has two hours of free time after work to play a game. Well, I have one hour. That person already has a huge advantage over me because of real life. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
It is okay if someone is using real life advantage in form of time, but not okay if it is in form of cash. You do realize that time is valuable. You have time, I have money, what is wrong with this picture? Time is money! Right?
Ok, if you want to be honest about it, and be really equal, cool... I won't use real money to gain advantage, you stop playing longer than me so you won't get advantage. Deal? No? Well... then I guess there is no problem there, is there?
How is advantage in time different than advantage in cash? This is what I try to understand, both are real life advantages!
If you really want equal chances in game, you would need a game where there is a daily time limit and then the sh*t just goes black screen. Then I leave my money out of it, because we are equal. But it would be retarded, so it won't happen.
Remove the cash advantage and you still got people that will have advantage in time. You won't play less, because you want freedom... but only for yourself, screw others, right? I have more free time, screw the guys who have less time. Equal only where it benefits me, right? Like most feminists....
DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to change my opinion whenever I see fit, without warning. What I say now may not represent the "ME" in my next post xD
Comments
Ok so IRL, someone works 50 hours per week, you work the same job for 25 hours a week. You get less for less time put in. Should you be able to print or steal some money to catch up?
Printing/stealing money in a game is ok with you though?
Time as a resource is already split between the two - work and game. You sacrifice one activity for the other because your time is limited. So... basically, you playing a game at home for two hours.. is you loosing the money you could earn in that time, no matter if you wanted to work or not. So basically, that one hour longer than me.. you pay for it, not directly, but you do in economic sense. So you do exactly what you say is immoral yourself.
Outside of pvp...people should focus more on what they're doing and less on what others are doing when it comes to this type of thing.
I've never been the first person to lvl cap or the first person to unlock some god awful time sink quest but I do get there eventually and try and have fun along the way. I don't believe everyone that posts these " It's P2W!!!" arguments are all the cutting edge of content raiders either.
The fact that some person can buy it or not doesn't impact my pve game unless I start looking over my fence to see if my stuff is better than theirs. That never ends well in real life, it's not going to end well for you in a game either.
It's not hypocrisy. It's just an attempt to make the playing field of a game level. Same thing for sports. Each team plays by the same rules, with the same restrictions, but some teams may be able to afford better equipment or have more time for training. That doesn't mean we should just let a football team pay 10k to get another shot at a field goal, or to pay money for an extra "down" when they need it.
You make me like charity
If that hour bothers you, sleep less. Problem solved. Nothing you can do about the other problem, but you can self fix the first!
But it still doesn't change the fact that in every sport you have set time for a match, and both teams,or every player depending on game has the same amount of time. So that is my whole point, you can't compare it to a mmorpg, where one player plays longer than the other, it is already unfair to begin with.
Would it be wrong for other team to pay money for extra down, if other team had the priviledge to play one hour longer on the field alone.. you see the absurd?
You have to keep in mind that the term "P2W" or "Pay to Win" is a pretty vague one and isn't usually used literally. The reason it's a big deal for most people is that playing an MMO is a bit different from playing other video games. In an MMO, what you're really doing is investing in the game, its community, and its culture. Having a game where you can pay money to get better items, or level faster, or whatever, just means that the game becomes less of an MMO, and more of a normal video game. People aren't in it in the long haul, because they just pay for the immediate gratification rather than investing time and effort into their character, before moving on to the next game after getting bored.
So yeah, P2W doesn't have to have a direct impact on you if other people are using it, but it does have a direct impact on the game itself, in that the culture and community ends up being filled with people who aren't interested in investing in the community and culture of the game, and instead are just playing for a bit before moving on to something else.
You make me like charity
It's an interesting question and one that I was thinking about just the other day.
When I play an MMO, I play to escape from the real world and the main thing in the real world I'm trying to get away from is money and the way it dominates every aspect of our lives. The fantasy of an MMO is to find myself in a world where none of that matters. The moment I become aware of money creeping into the game, the escapsm breaks for me and the game feels like just another store. That's a very subjective view, but it's one that matters to me.
That having been said, I'm not blind to other sources of imbalance that can interfere with that sense of citizenship in the world, including the amount of time that people can budget for their play, when they joined or how mecahnics call upon real-world skills. But they just aren't issues that I'm personally as sensensitive about.I don't think you understand my point. No matter how much money a team is willing to throw into a sport, they all have to play the same rules when it comes down to it. With a game that's P2W, that is no longer the case because people can just purchase advantages in game as needed.
You're also not understanding correlation between play time and in-game advantages. Your 5 hours of game time is just as valuable as my 5 hours of game time. If you decide to play 20 hours instead, you haven't experienced anything I can't at my 20 hour mark. If you spend 80 hours leveling up so that you can be part of a raid, and I spend 80 hours leveling up so that I can be part of the raid, it doesn't matter if your 80 hours happened over the course of a week and mine happened over 6 months. We both were ready for that raid in 80 hours of game time. And that's how it should be.
What P2W does is make it so that -- using my previous example -- you can pay money to be ready for that raid in 40 hours instead of the normal 80, all else being equal. In that situation, I've had to invest twice as much time to accomplish the same thing as you because you paid to do it faster.
You make me like charity
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually I think you are not seeing where the OP is going on this one.
I will use your 80 hours of game play to get to a raid to explain. Lets say the raid is 10 days from now. You can easily play that 80 hours to get their, while the OP only has 20 hours available in the next 10 days ... Why is it considered P2W or unfair for him to spend cash to "remove" that 60 hour barrier of time so that the OP is ready for the raid in 10 days time?
People of all types like to play MMOs, not everyone is a top tier raider, best at PvP, or even top level crafter. Since there is no "win" condition in an MMO does it really matter how a player gets to where they are (a PvP MMO is different and an exceptionto this)?
There's a difference between pay to win and choosing to play all day. Pay to win is added to games by developers to make money, pay to win destroys the balance in games and causes players to leave. People don't leave games in hordes just because a percent of the population plays more than they do.
People have the choice whether to play a video game 5 hours a day or only 10 minutes a day. Do you believe someone can be superior to you? If you said no, then there is no real life advantage. Everyone is equal then, sort of, unless you want to blame genetics or a bad hand. You don't have to have 8 hours of sleep, you don't have to have children or multiple jobs. You could be a bum playing runescape from the library if you so choose.
Kind of a mix and a spin on Colt firearm's motto and Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of independence - All men are created equal, but cash shops make some OP.
They have games with a fatigue/stamina system that limits playtime/what you can do and US/EU players always hate it. Either you pay more to play more with them, or everyone is limited to like 2 hours of play, maybe less. That's a strong example of Socialism.
Him not being ready for the 10 day raid window, has nothing to do with the game design. It's just him not willing to play the same number of hours as the other guy, who can. He has 24 hours out of every day to choose any number of things to do, including work, sleep, games, sex, whatever. Just like the other guy. Maybe he doesn't think it's fair that he has to work crappy hours, or has a family vacation that week or something, but that's a problem with his life, and has nothing to do with the game.
You make me like charity
This whole thing about time = money therefore it is not pay 2 win is ridiculous.
The whole way of thinking has just gone off track and has dragged things in that have nothing to do with the game itself.
You should not bring real life economy into games. If one guy is a manager and makes $50 an hour and another guy is just an employee and makes $10 an hour, the manager should suddenly be able to progress 5x more by paying? You will just end up with the definition of pay 2 win then.
It's like saying that you can use real money in a game of monopoly to cheat your way out.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Great post, Fdzzaigl. Your last sentence is an absolute home run; simple but painfully accurate.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
#17.
Dang nope #18
I botched this post so badly, I'm removing most and leaving you with my final thoughts:
I see the bigger question is what is an UNFAIR advantage.
If the developer says (buying uber gear) is okay, and not breaking the rules of the game, how could it be cheating?
If it's not cheating, how can it be an unfair advantage?
If not an unfair advantage, and still an advantage, then wouldn't it be a FAIR advantage?
And those same people that pay..to........"win" in that way are gone very quickly. You said it yourself. They're not in it for the long haul.
I keep going back to these older mmos that so many have written off as p2w and they're full of people all playing the game for the long haul. they don't buy their way to everything or do any of the other silly things the mmo tourists do.
There are limits to what is acceptable and game companies will always push them, because they're all a business first and a game company second. The zero tolerance some gamers seem to have is only going to end one way.
First of all these seems to be an increase in the definition of what pay to win actually means.
Depending on your version of pay to win, depends on a proper response. But the general response is because in a video game everyone more or less is at an equal playing field. People progress or get good at a game due to the amount of time put in, and they don't have to think about the outside world.
Pay to Win comes in a few forms depending on who you talk to.
How is the manager that works 50 hrs a week and the employee that works 20 hrs a week ever going to be on the same playing field ?
In this type of situation real life is always going to intrude on the game. It's just a case of are you the manager or the employee in real life.
Well, I would not be the norm then, as I make good money, a family etc...So I have the money, more then I have the time, but I still find it not right. If someone has the time, good for them, when I am in the game, me and his time are 100% equal without the cash shop. I like equality as far as my games go.
I also think it is fine for games to cater to the cash shop crowd also, not everything should be the same, but unfortunately, their is not enough imo of the non-cash shop variety going. So as a consumer, and on a forum, I voice this.
I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.
I have a theory about this whole thing,why not use RL money as the game currency but don't charge a but load for items let it turn into a real world economy and any transaction that happens in game the game company gets a % simple player ran economy that may actually boost the real life economy. also they need to quit making the games depend so much on items more on skills that you learn kinda like Ultima online was when it first came out
simple is best really i kinda went little off subject. I think pay to win is lazy push to to win tactics and a greedy un ethical way to make money off of a game. but you have made the most valid argument ive ever seen about this subject. a game is not truly fun unless you do something to earn your levels and skill not have it handed to you because well example: "MOMY Johny beat me again can you buy me a sword so i can beat him" Momy only cares about shutting this brat up so she can finish smoking her crack and meth so she will spend as much as she can to do her drugs with out care. this ruins more than just economy it ruins game play becuase now you got a spoiled brat out there griefing people instead of a mature player who is willing to role play. this pay to win crap has taken RP out of mmorpg there is no more RP in mmorpg its just mmo now days. sorry my grammer and spelling suck. you do put up a good argument though
Well why not reverse the poles here for a moment:
How about a game that is F2P w/out a buy in. No drops at all save for consumables and all gear is $0.10 no scaling to lvl or content with a high lvl of customability. But you will need low lvl gear to get to the higher lvls or you'll be undergeared or naked.
Maybe we could really flesh out what players actualy want out of their gear and make a better model.
That would make it even for everyone right?
I mean thats not P2W is it?