To clarify, I am not saying we need to have the whole screen cluttered with hot bars, equivalent to a maximum level character in Wow. I am saying we need some where in the range of 15-20 active combat abilities per class to keep things interesting, and I am talking about for a single role, not role swapping. I am not against having people choose which abilities they will bring with them to combat, but the base number needs to be Increased to something higher than what I am seeing in the growing number of new mmorpgs including Wildstar. Some of these abilities can be situational, some of them can be on long cooldowns etc. Some of these abilities ca be more fluff, or for fun/humor, adding variety to the game. The key is variety in combat.
I am not sure why Developers think limiting the number of active class abilities to 7-10 is some how going to improve gameplay, especially when recent action mmorpgs have failed with that configuration. For a single player game that is meant to be played for 40-60 hours, this limited setup can work. Mmorpgs are meant to be played for much longer, boredom will set in after 1-2 months and players will leave and limited active abilities are a primary reason.
The movement and targeting in Wildstar does not make up for this fact, there is not enough of it to justify such a significant reduction in core active powers. This is not an FPS where you are actually aiming in the true sense, it is just a slight improvement to the base combat system that has been in mmorpgs for years, reducing the powers offsets any improvements made.
TSW didn't hold people's attention very long, even with positive reviews, I think limited active skills was a major contributor, the other beeing poor animations in combat.
DCU was another game that had potential and failed, limited you to 6 active powers was a major reasons. The mouse based combos and blocking etc helped some what, but it was still not enough to offset the limiting combat system.
GW1 didn't exactly fail, but I and many others only played for small stretches due to the limits of the combat system. Arenanet knew this was a mjaor issue in Gw1, that is why they made a somewhat significant increase in active abilities in GW2. I applaud them, but i think they should have made a lot of the abilities not so directly linked to a specific weopon type. I think people would have played Gw2 longer with more variety in combat.
when I play a mmorpg for several months as a DPS character, I would like to have at least 4-5 single target DPS, 4-5 aoe abilities, and at least a few utility and CC abilities. I don't mind having to change ouit abilities out of combat, but I want more diversity in combat. So the number of skills doesn't need to be 40+ but certainly higher than 10 or lower.
I have played mmorpgs for a long time, since AO was released in 2001 and see this trend as a regression. AO (pre-expansion) limited the number of abilities your character had in combat, and it is one of the reasons I have never returned to that game after all these years.
i doubt u have played enough MMO and i bet u are just a WOW freak.. u dont need more then 8 active spells at any given time.. its dumb to have more.. and wildstar is going to be for people who want a challenge since it's going to be really hardcore leveling up and raiding and so on.. so just Go play your Easy WOW...
Originally posted by ropenice Why not offer more hotbar skill/spell usage on UI and if players don't want to use that many they dont have to. People that want less can trim it down to what they want and those that like a higher number and variety of skills can load up? I see al ot of players want choices not limitations, so why limit on combat?
Because it wouldn't work at all and totally kill the whole reason behind having limited hotbar space. No one is going to limit their self and put them self at a disadvantage like that by only limiting their self while others are not limited, makes no sence even saying it i cant see how you hit enter with that post lol.
That is only when a class fills one role. Each class is a hybrid (Wildstar). Either they are dps/healers or dps/tanks. So, there will never be just one cookie cutter action set.
Wildstar will have cookie cutter builds, but they will be mostly for veteran dungeons and raids. In those situations the class will be filling a specific role against a specific difficult encounter design, and there will be a "most effective" build to use for that role.
I don't particularly care about "how many" skills we get or whatever, what I am worried about is the removal of different class flavors and feels due to limited skillset. Skills like underwater breathing, track X, ritual of summoning, Healthstone/Soulstone, Spirit Wolf. None of those abilities really fit the action bar scheme and shouldn't be on one in the first place, but limited action bar games frequently remove them outright.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by NagelRitter I don't particularly care about "how many" skills we get or whatever, what I am worried about is the removal of different class flavors and feels due to limited skillset. Skills like underwater breathing, track X, ritual of summoning, Healthstone/Soulstone, Spirit Wolf. None of those abilities really fit the action bar scheme and shouldn't be on one in the first place, but limited action bar games frequently remove them outright.
This has been asked a few months back, and non-combat abilities will be able to be placed on hotbar addons ( bartender ), so things like your healthstone, potion, mount, etc should work.
The amount of skills needed on the hotbar depends on the game. In some games, you have to be prepared for every possible situation, and each needs another skill. In other games most skills are suited to deal with almost all enemies, so a few are enough. And if they don't work, simply swap them out. Maybe even during battle, or you have to go back to town and try again, no big deal.
I actually think you are a bit limited in GW2, because skills are tied to the weapon, and half the skills aren't "real" skills, but utility like heal etc. But the 8 freely adjustable in the original GW were more than enough.
And of course there were cookie cutter builds. But not one, several, so not everyone would use the same. And a lot of those builds came into existence because someone thought "everyone is using skills a, b and c, but x, y and z look nice, too. I wonder if i can make a build out of those..". Or because of PVP, finding the right build to deal with your enemy who of course would use some kind of cookie cutter build.
If it's done right, limiting the amount of skills you can bring indeed diversifies gameplay over everyone simply using everything.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I wouldn't mind 8-10 skill as long as I don't have to spam 1111111111, while other skills are on 10-15-20-40-60 seconds cooldown. That's hurting my brain...
Originally posted by Mad+Dog Im old, I only want 5 abilities max. 4 for each finger and 1 for my thumb
Im old too. Razer naga. 2 fingers, 1 thumb right hand. shift/ctrl/tab wasd spcae left hand. 60+ hotkeys w/o breaking a sweat.
Amount of skills depends on the game. D3, GW2 n mobas are fun for days upon days with just a few. Other games like WoW etc. can be equally fun with a dozens of hotbar skills.
I disagree. A system that allows you to pick and choose from a limited set, such as 10, can be just as fun as a system with Wow-esk amounts of hotkeys. This system is present in guild wars 2, and personally changing around my build and figureing out new combinations is one of my favorite things to do in that game. So perhaps you are not taking into consideration that other peoples opinions of this may differ from yours. I'll be subbing to Wildstar as long as it's fun, and I don't think the limited action set will take away from that at all.
Going to have to disagree with the OP. I think as long as they have enough side stuff to do "fluff and combat is fun, exploring is fun, building homes is fun etc etc the game will do fine.
I cant wait honestly, I am tired of the hotbar challenge. Not what I would consider fun side stuff lol.
The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. I'm not advocating MMO's introduce aiming as it just doesn't work with most people having +250ms latency and modifying the game (larger hit boxes, slower targets etc) defeats the whole point of skill in aiming.
Having said that, the shrinkage in MMO abilities is about new markets to capture $$$$ - its as simple as that. Console players don't have the hardware (nor most likely the trained muscle memory) for that many abilities.
That's taken the assumption that 1 hotkey = 1 active skill
magicka has only 8 hotkey but thousands of active skill , it isn't the most polish game in the world, but imagine if a develop use a similar idea for their classes. I think combos will bring even more variety to the field than just putting more skill there.
time to think outside the box
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I'm not a fan of limited active skills/sets. I get bored. I don't mind skill sets as long as I can move between while in combat.
Thats a whole different topic alltogether but there is no reason at al lever you should be able to switch skill sets mid fight.
I think you might be thinking of specs. Wushu has skill sets, gw2 has skill sets. In Wushu I have about 14 skill sets each set has about 7-9 skills (limited). I can switch between sets on the fly with a 7 sec cooldown in between sets. Even if you where talking about specs, imagine if a WoW warlock could switch between builds.
Yeah, so if WS is limited with no switching during combat, it'll get boring quick for me. It'll feel to restrictive.
The original Everquest had a total of eight skills allowed at a time? or was it six? In either case and as mentioned by many others, the number of usable skills at any given time has very little to do with a game's longevity.
Personally I think it's absurd that people believe they need that many active skills(15+) for fun to be had. I'd rather play the game, not several sets of cool-downs.
I don't think it would work in a system with action combat. I'm all up for more skills, but it just doesn't seem feasible with the fast-paced combat they have in place. They will be forced to overhaul their system, slow it down and redesign the game's core game play and difficulty from start to finish.
It MIGHT work for some roles that require less mobility, but that would be ridiculously hard to balance when you consider the fact that all roles - melee, casters, healers, and tanks would have access to the same amount of abilities.
I don't think it would work in a system with action combat. I'm all up for more skills, but it just doesn't seem feasible with the fast-paced combat they have in place. They will be forced to overhaul their system, slow it down and redesign the game's core game play and difficulty from start to finish.
It MIGHT work for some roles that require less mobility, but that would be ridiculously hard to balance when you consider the fact that all roles - melee, casters, healers, and tanks would have access to the same amount of abilities.
Comments
i doubt u have played enough MMO and i bet u are just a WOW freak.. u dont need more then 8 active spells at any given time.. its dumb to have more.. and wildstar is going to be for people who want a challenge since it's going to be really hardcore leveling up and raiding and so on.. so just Go play your Easy WOW...
Because it wouldn't work at all and totally kill the whole reason behind having limited hotbar space. No one is going to limit their self and put them self at a disadvantage like that by only limiting their self while others are not limited, makes no sence even saying it i cant see how you hit enter with that post lol.
Wildstar will have cookie cutter builds, but they will be mostly for veteran dungeons and raids. In those situations the class will be filling a specific role against a specific difficult encounter design, and there will be a "most effective" build to use for that role.
I'm not a fan of limited active skills/sets. I get bored. I don't mind skill sets as long as I can move between while in combat.
Thats a whole different topic alltogether but there is no reason at al lever you should be able to switch skill sets mid fight.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
This has been asked a few months back, and non-combat abilities will be able to be placed on hotbar addons ( bartender ), so things like your healthstone, potion, mount, etc should work.
It's never about how many skills/spells there are for me but how they're implemented.
30-40 skills where 80% of them are situational and rarely used or provide silly 5 second buffs are not fun to manage.
8-10 skills where you're really only using one or two because the rest are again situational are also not fun.
Give me 10-15 great abilities that I'm always going to use and i'll be happy.
TOR failed as a sub game, that must be because it had multiple hotbars.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think Robokapp's point is valid.
If Neverwinter had more abilities to play with, it could have had more players.
TOR wouldn't be better or more popular if it had 5 skills.
It's just guessing, but TOR surely didn't fail becaue of the amount of abilities.
Far too many variables in all of these games to pinpoint one feature as having more influence one way or the other.
For clarity....I hope you do realize I was being ironic above.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The amount of skills needed on the hotbar depends on the game. In some games, you have to be prepared for every possible situation, and each needs another skill. In other games most skills are suited to deal with almost all enemies, so a few are enough. And if they don't work, simply swap them out. Maybe even during battle, or you have to go back to town and try again, no big deal.
I actually think you are a bit limited in GW2, because skills are tied to the weapon, and half the skills aren't "real" skills, but utility like heal etc. But the 8 freely adjustable in the original GW were more than enough.
And of course there were cookie cutter builds. But not one, several, so not everyone would use the same. And a lot of those builds came into existence because someone thought "everyone is using skills a, b and c, but x, y and z look nice, too. I wonder if i can make a build out of those..". Or because of PVP, finding the right build to deal with your enemy who of course would use some kind of cookie cutter build.
If it's done right, limiting the amount of skills you can bring indeed diversifies gameplay over everyone simply using everything.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Im old too. Razer naga. 2 fingers, 1 thumb right hand. shift/ctrl/tab wasd spcae left hand. 60+ hotkeys w/o breaking a sweat.
Amount of skills depends on the game. D3, GW2 n mobas are fun for days upon days with just a few. Other games like WoW etc. can be equally fun with a dozens of hotbar skills.
Going to have to disagree with the OP. I think as long as they have enough side stuff to do "fluff and combat is fun, exploring is fun, building homes is fun etc etc the game will do fine.
I cant wait honestly, I am tired of the hotbar challenge. Not what I would consider fun side stuff lol.
The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. I'm not advocating MMO's introduce aiming as it just doesn't work with most people having +250ms latency and modifying the game (larger hit boxes, slower targets etc) defeats the whole point of skill in aiming.
Having said that, the shrinkage in MMO abilities is about new markets to capture $$$$ - its as simple as that. Console players don't have the hardware (nor most likely the trained muscle memory) for that many abilities.
That's taken the assumption that 1 hotkey = 1 active skill
magicka has only 8 hotkey but thousands of active skill , it isn't the most polish game in the world, but imagine if a develop use a similar idea for their classes. I think combos will bring even more variety to the field than just putting more skill there.
time to think outside the box
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think you might be thinking of specs. Wushu has skill sets, gw2 has skill sets. In Wushu I have about 14 skill sets each set has about 7-9 skills (limited). I can switch between sets on the fly with a 7 sec cooldown in between sets. Even if you where talking about specs, imagine if a WoW warlock could switch between builds.
Yeah, so if WS is limited with no switching during combat, it'll get boring quick for me. It'll feel to restrictive.
The original Everquest had a total of eight skills allowed at a time? or was it six? In either case and as mentioned by many others, the number of usable skills at any given time has very little to do with a game's longevity.
Personally I think it's absurd that people believe they need that many active skills(15+) for fun to be had. I'd rather play the game, not several sets of cool-downs.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
I don't think it would work in a system with action combat. I'm all up for more skills, but it just doesn't seem feasible with the fast-paced combat they have in place. They will be forced to overhaul their system, slow it down and redesign the game's core game play and difficulty from start to finish.
It MIGHT work for some roles that require less mobility, but that would be ridiculously hard to balance when you consider the fact that all roles - melee, casters, healers, and tanks would have access to the same amount of abilities.
you may have point.