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Hot Topic: Black People in Fantasy theme games or lack there of...
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
This isnt to offend anybody. This is simply a hot topic discussion, that I believe is worth talking about rather than ignoring this issue as if it doesnt exist.
Well after going to see the recent movie the Hobbit
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug
I actually enjoyed the movie, and wanted to go online to read up on what others thought about the movie. Something came up though in the reading of the movie. There seem to be a big controversy over the "BLACK HUMAN" in the trade city.
I figured since, Tolkien is a big figure in the genre of "Fantasy theme" of video games, I would assume his vision of "Fantasy genre" is something other writers and designers of "Fantasy themed" media would be effected by.
Here are examples of this controversy.
Why adding a black woman to Lake Town is wrong.
Why were there ASIANS and BLACKS in the 'human' town?
Now again the reason I wanted to point this out, because like I said before, Tolkien's work effect other developers and writers of the Fantasy genre. Especially in MMOs in which the Fantasy theme happens to be the most popular of all themes in this video game genre.
Often in fantasy themed MMO, I notice there isnt much of an option in creating Black Humans when humans are a playable race.
Some community members themselves are even against the idea of "BLACK HUMANS" in fantasy theme games.
here are some examples.
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Black People and Azeroth [Discussion]
Where are all the black humans at?
Why is there option for a black skin for humans?
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more examples
Hey warhammer WHERE is your black people at?
andman341 wonders if theres going to be any black people in this game.
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GW2 Black Norn debates could go here as well.
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But that should be enough examples for now to get the point across.
Now some key arguments I seem to see repeated in these kind of discussions, is the concept that the "Fantasy genre" is based off of Medievalism Form of Europe, so the assumption is that Black People didnt exist in Europe at that time a knights.
That argument is a huge misconception that most historians now days would disagree with.
It is now more excepted across the board by Historians that Black People lived in Europe, and where even Kings and Generals in Europe post christ.
The Spanish Moor, who crossed into Europe and seized control of parts of Europe, were there and in control for close to a thousand years after Christ/Muhammad. It is known historically, that the Spanish Moor's main base before invading Europe was in the darkest parts of West Africa ( SENEGAL AFRICA). It was also a common known reason WW2's main Villain known as Adolf Hitler himself targeted Caucasian Jews of Europe, because of their known African Descent DNA from the Moorish invasion which befriended the Caucasian Jews ( and mated with them).
That leads me to the other argument, for IP like Warhammer, which people argue that its based off of Medieval Germany, which goes back to the above explanation that Black People are known to have been in Germany as well during those time periods.
So the idea that Black People shouldnt be in Fantasy genre because of those misinformed ideals, is simply wrong.
But despite the above historical references, We still see more modern day MMOs of "Fantasy Theme" being made without the option, or limited option in making Black People as a playable option for humans and the likes.
Whats your opinion on this? This is a discussion forum on games after all.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
I think in the name of fairness to everyone that you are correct. They should have options for race/sex in every game if it is possible and have more diversity of NPCs.
One that that really annoys me though is all the skinny white model women that are kicking every ones butts in movies/video games these days. It seems everyone new movie/tv show/video game has at a main skinny/model white woman that is an unstoppable kung fu master and also a genius. I sorry to have gone off topic a bit, but it just annoys me.
I guess it's revenge for all the movies with stupid tuff white body builders types over the last 30 to 40 years.
Personally I like to play as a stupid white male who saves the day. It suits me well lol.
Sorry for the Off topic talk.
Well...Michonne (the black chick) in The Walking Dead is breaking your argument then, she even has a samuraj sword
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
People who make these type of posts (not yours OP, I mean the ones you reference to) have far too much time on their hands. For the first instance although these 'worlds' have a concept as to where they are based, they are still and forever more be works of fiction.
Also being games, it is not wise to exclude anyone through your fan base with any kind of racial diversity restrictions. The games are RPGS at the end of the day and just like games such Dungeons and Dragons the player can make up an individual reason as to how they are in the lands and where they hail from, its their character after all.
As for movies I do kinda agree, people shouldn't be just 'placed' there because they are trying not to offend anyone, if it makes sense to have an Asian present then there should be one, I would find it more racially offensive to place someone in a film just to meet a 'racial' quota. In the works of The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings it matters little as the books don't really go into slave trade, or other races etc. They are just the race of 'men' and I believe the reason for that term was all men are considered equal hence there being no need to mention diversity.
Wow! MMOExposed truly this is a touchy subject,
I do think that, lore aside, we should first understand that we are really talking about games/mmo's here. I enjoy lore and admire writers that can really stick to it. I watched the Hobbit 2 and loved it. I saw the races in the town and it did "catch" my eye for a split second, but in the long run I didn't leave the theater upset at all. After reading the issues brought up in iMBd, I could see a screen-writer thinking outside the box a bit. Basically asking the question, "Is it possibly for a specific race in the Tolkien world to act independently of said allegiances? You can see that in other races in that world, thus it just stands to reason that it is possible within any fantasy world.
As for the games we play today, diversity is important. Not all gamers are white. There are many races world-wide that enjoy, say, World of Warcraft, so it seems to me that maybe we should see more racial clarity here. Are we going to see more racial diversity this year? For that matter, do we see a problem with sexual discrimination in our games? Just a couple of questions to use as a possible measuring stick for 2014-onward.
Alyn
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
mmm pizza
Everquest had the erudite race and dark elves
but otherwise, in mmos at least, it hard to justify this being an issue with all the fantasy races
Character skin tone alone lets players be practically any human race they want to be
EQ2 fan sites
Really? I mean... REALLY?!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Oopsy. I think I'm just overly used to talking about species when it comes to mmo's. I spit my soda out after noticing the wordage in my sentence.
mmm pizza
I think the whole thing is a none issue and simply playing the race card to get attention.
It's like going touring around China and complaining that the (majority of) people there are of Asian descent; demanding that they import people of different descent and basically insult their culture.
If developers and creators make a world that doesn't suit your tastes. It's not their problem. They are creating the world and telling their story.
How ever having player customization so some one can chose their skin color to mirror themselves in real life is important. That way certain players don't feel they're excluded if they wish to play as their skin color. Though I just see them as another player regardless.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
It's a lot different in the west than in the east though. East Asian countries are for the most part highly homogenous, and you rarely see other ethnicities living there, while the west has integrated a highly multicultural position over the last couple centuries. A lot of the traditional homogenous cultures staying that way is probably heavily due to the very little impact that Judeo-Christianity has had on those nations in comparison to the west.
mmm pizza
Race is a tricky subject to tackle in MMO's because it doesn't mean the same thing as it does IRL. For example, in the real world race denotes traits such as Black, Caucasian, Asian etc. However in fantasy MMO's it usually means a much larger division of humanoids such as Human, Troll, Orc etc. So the word "race" typically means different things in fantasy (or any) MMO.
In addition, these fantasy game divisions are usually set in stone. A WoW player will never be able to roll an ORC and play them as an alliance as a human. In fantasy games, this type of integration just isn't very feasible. However, IRL, these divisions have thankfully been reduced greatly (not eliminated - yet) and any race can (and should) be welcome into any setting they so choose.
Historical based MMO's aside (i.e., Age of Wushu), I think HUMAN facial and skin options should generally allow for people of any cultural background to somewhat represent themselves in the game to better to reflect the diversity we generally enjoy as humans. This diversity should be reflected in NPC's as well. Fiction and fantasy typically mirrors or existing world to a degree, and it should.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I'm gonna chime in here as this hit something with me.
If anyone has read any original 'Conan' books by Robert E. Howard you would know that black barbarians were a huge part of the story as well.
So when 'Age of Conan' game released I was very disappointed to see that the world/race did not hold true to this. Maybe it changed over time since I haven't played that game in a very long time. That was a pet peeve of mine.
The remake of the movie 'Conan' was more true as Conan's close friend was a black barbarian. However I did not like the guy that played Conan, lol. It's a movie and not related to games but still, had to mention it.
Many MMOs allow for player created "black people". I have seen many in games like GW2, WoW, TSW, etc. Also in many of them there are black or of some ethnic diversity NPCs. I say the Imps and Ogres have been overlooked more than any race!!! What about their rights?
They get no rights, they too f'ugly....
Asheron's call is a very diverse game. The original playable races are the Aluvians who are based on white europeans; Sho which are based upon asian (mostly Japanese) culture; and Gharu'ndim which are based upon middle eastern culture.
I feel that gaming has gotten much better in terms of diversity over the years, and that this is mostly becoming a non-issue.
This whole thing reminds me of Chasing Amy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv7beQ9wHiM
As other posters may have mentioned, Middle Earth did have black people, however the only ones encountered sided with Sauron, which doesn't really sit well with the general public these days, hence the inclusion of Asians and black people into the towns. To be honest, its probably not unlikely, as there could have been the odd traders and travellers. The hobbits being based on the Irish is probably far more racist.
As for MMOs, I think the WoW black human skin is underused simply because the hair options do not suit the skin pigmentation. I never played WAR so I cant comment, but pretty much every MMO I have played has had black racial options. Everquest and Everquest 2 had an entirely black race (Erudites) who were actually the smartest of the races.
As for the representation, I would hazard a guess and say its because the people playing these characters are predominatly caucasion, and hence more likely to make characters of their own race / pigmentation - much like how humans are the most common race in fantasy games.
Personally I make a wide range of genders / races / pigmentations. But I realise that I am not really the norm.
Post #12 on that WoW link pretty much sums up my feelings on the lack of black characters in WoW:
"Putting dark skin on Anglo features doesn't give you a "black" character".
My black friends all play other races for this very reason. The black characters in WoW basically look like white people doing blackface makeup.
I laughed so hard... I wondered what you were going to say because it was too late to edit the post haha..
(On topic) In fiction or fantasy its confusing why Black humans and Asian humans would be a problem for people? Its not real and people need to get over it. I remember seeing a post (not here) where somebody was upset that Nick Fury was played by Sam Jackson in the movie Ironman. He didnt know that they picked him based on the Ultimate Marvel comic and he was a perfect match.
I wonder if people get mad everytime they see White Egyptians or White general Hannibal of Carthage... and they are REAL people.
edit: White Jesus lol
I always kinda thought that the orcs and trolls were essentially the "black people" in Warcraft (orcs have brown skin naturally and trolls have mostly jamaican accents and hoodoo/voodoo practices).
I don't mean to sound racist or anything, I just thought that that's what the orcs and trolls represented.
Similarly, I always thought that in Warcraft Tauren were native americans, pandarens were asians, etc. Again no racism intended.
*Edit* It seems like there are several faces/face options in Aion to make black people (even though their skin isn't very "black" perse if they are an Asmodian), but for the most part black people seem to be represented by certain non-human races in certain fantasy MMOs. I think the only modern MMO that has a true representation of black humans is the Mordebi humans in Vanguard (and maybe Redguard in The Elder Scrolls Online).
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
That's odd. I always thought that the Marvel Ultimate universe's Nick Fury was based on Sam Jackson playing Fury in the Ironman movie.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I have a couple black characters even though I'm not black (and no I didn't give them some "black" name) they're just some of my characters happen to be black.
As far as tolkien and older fantasy material goes, I do give them a pass for being products of their time. Context matters.
I honestly wouldn't have minded if Peter Jackson had taken additional liberties with the races and made some black elves and dwarves. I mean, why not? He took liberties with other things, race shouldn't be taboo. That being said, I don't hold anything against him, nor do I perceive him as racist in any way, but I wouldn't have minded.
Other neglected/poorly done characters are women, not just in fantasy, but in nearly all mediums. In fact, I'll be perfectly honest, I'm writing my own fantasy novel and I'll tell you, I'm having the damndest time writing a female character that is both believable and not the usual - "oh she's a "strong" female which means she's invincible and smarter than all the men. It really difficult to write a female who might not be intelligent as some or as capable as others while making her self sufficient and not revolving around any romantic entanglements. Anyway that's a personal struggle.
As far as race goes, I don't want to see race included for the sake of saying, "hey we added some tokens!" I want race included because it makes sense because the world is mixed up and why wouldn't a fantasy world be mixed up?
Firefly was a great series and Joss Whedon did a great job including black characters. Zoe, Shepherd, The Operative and never once did they seem like token characters. They were black because they happened to be black.
As far as games go, sometimes a race is modeled after an old human culture which was predominantly white and I understand that, but most games have humans. And at the very least, the human race should have some mixture, even if it's a fantasy human race.