Originally posted by Zzulu I will not buy the game until it changes the payment system, so I agree with the article somewhat
Yep, i really want ISO level microtransactions as well. Wow a new zone...wait, won't let me in until i PAY FOR IT!
New raid, all the guild want to go...wait, I have to go get my credit card before it can go....
Modern MT's are becoming really really awful as games companies try to milk more from their cows, a subs fee with all-in content and no hidden fees is far preferrable for me.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Originally posted by Zzulu I will not buy the game until it changes the payment system, so I agree with the article somewhat
Yep, i really want ISO level microtransactions as well. Wow a new zone...wait, won't let me in until i PAY FOR IT!
New raid, all the guild want to go...wait, I have to go get my credit card before it can go....
Modern MT's are becoming really really awful as games companies try to milk more from their cows, a subs fee with all-in content and no hidden fees is far preferrable for me.
I don't know any F2P mmo that works that way ... so have no idea what you are talking about. XD
Every F2P game I ever played, I was always able to get pretty much full access to all areas, zones, or raids.
Though it does show your ignorance on what a F2P mmo is.
If you are going to bash the F2P model .. at least use something that is true.
May be it is just me, but there are way too many good games out there to justify a commitment to a single game. That's why I think subscriptions models may not work aswell in the future as it has in the past. Calling out TESO at fail, because of the subscription model alone is a bit of a stretch. It is not like devs cannot change their business plans.
While it'll be sad to see an IP like TES get the SWTOR treatment, I think it's necessary for the industry to progress.
The sooner it goes F2P and the hivemind casuals leave after their free month, the better.
If game doesn't meet expectations, better let it die, than going F2P. Shut it down, put finger at head and then think what went wrong. It's easy to go F2P, but hard to make game worth money.
I particularly found this part of the article insightful:
The Elder Scrolls. The series has first and foremost always been the quintessential single player game. You, the hero, explore a vast countryside, taking on quests and saving the day. I don’t think many players ever stopped and thought “This would be so much better with 50 other versions of me running around with names above their heads.”
I have seen this countless times before, many many times. The fear mongoring and "will it fail" endless arguments. The game will release and not meet expectations, because let's be frank, nothing is perfect. Everyone will get angry and say the game was a failure, the cycle repeats itself.
I have seen it with over 10 MMOs since 2005 and the same will happen all over again. Why? Because everyones expectations are too high, the sea of fish is flooded with trolls and people who instead of voicing their concern, just want to see everything fail and never have any hope of getting anywhere.
I have seen this countless times before, many many times. The fear mongoring and "will it fail" endless arguments. The game will release and not meet expectations, because let's be frank, nothing is perfect. Everyone will get angry and say the game was a failure, the cycle repeats itself.
I have seen it with over 10 MMOs since 2005 and the same will happen all over again. Why? Because everyones expectations are too high, the sea of fish is flooded with trolls and people who instead of voicing their concern, just want to see everything fail and never have any hope of getting anywhere.
I really feel like abandoning the MMO genre.
Hang in there FearGX we are not all fear mongoring doomsayers!
I have seen this countless times before, many many times. The fear mongoring and "will it fail" endless arguments. The game will release and not meet expectations, because let's be frank, nothing is perfect. Everyone will get angry and say the game was a failure, the cycle repeats itself.
I have seen it with over 10 MMOs since 2005 and the same will happen all over again. Why? Because everyones expectations are too high, the sea of fish is flooded with trolls and people who instead of voicing their concern, just want to see everything fail and never have any hope of getting anywhere.
I really feel like abandoning the MMO genre.
Any time anyone says the smallest negative thing about a game, suddenly the trolls, board warriors and fanboys calls them doomsayers that want the game to fail while going on long tirades about how they are going to abandon the genre over it. Maybe even going so far as to call them whiners while doing it.........
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
From what I've seen of TESO, it suffers from the same problem SWTOR, War and LOTRO suffered from before it. That is that the developers took a checklist of bog standard MMO mechanics and tried to wrap the TES franchise around them. What, imho, they should have done is start with the core mechanics and elements of the TES franchise and built those forward to being workable in a massive online environment.
TESO will not last as a sub game, and ZMO have made several huge mistakes. Developers and publishers need to LEARN, or the genre will continue to stagnate.
That is that the developers took a checklist of bog standard MMO mechanics and tried to wrap the TES franchise around them. What, imho, they should have done is start with the core mechanics and elements of the TES franchise and built those forward to being workable in a massive online environment.
And the funny thing about that is we have already seen it in MMO games so we know it can be done.
MMOs have been open world. MMOs have had no classes and allows you to train up each and every skill in the game (like TSW). MMOs have had factions with no racial locks. MMOs have had races with no faction locks. MMOs have allowed you to join factions after character creation, even switching sides like in SWG. MMOs have had in game mods as in The Foundry in Neverwinter, CoH and even the guild quest builder in SWG and worse yet, upcoming games like Shroud of the Avatar is going to allow players to make entire areas, towns, armor, weapons, NPCs, quests and sell them in an online shop!
TESO looks like it wasn't made with TES in mind, it looks like they were going to make DaoC 2 and suddenly had to make it into TES after starting.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Rhazmuz So many breaking NDA, hope they never get into a beta again!
I will adhere to the NDA. But really, the NDA has to go. Now.
This game NEEDS an open debate pronto. It is in severe danger which only the flames of an open debate can save.
Extremely ignorant statement. No time in the history of game development has a developer dropped their NDA so they can enter an open debate with the public when 99.99% of the game has already been developed so they can listen and then remake the entire game.
Extremely ignorant statement. No time in the history of game development has a developer dropped their NDA so they can enter an open debate with the public when 99.99% of the game has already been developed so they can listen and then remake the entire game.
Welcome back to reality.
Speaking of reality.
In which one do developers listen to the community before its too late?
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Zzulu I will not buy the game until it changes the payment system, so I agree with the article somewhat
Yep, i really want ISO level microtransactions as well. Wow a new zone...wait, won't let me in until i PAY FOR IT!
New raid, all the guild want to go...wait, I have to go get my credit card before it can go....
Modern MT's are becoming really really awful as games companies try to milk more from their cows, a subs fee with all-in content and no hidden fees is far preferrable for me.
New raid, all the guild want to go .... wait I have to get out my credit card and pay my sub before I can go .... a sub is a transaction.
You can automate the sub - but you can automate the payment for content drops as well, premium memberships etc.
Not having a sub doesn't mean a game has to have a cash shop with micro-transactions.
what i think is kinda funny is that when a game announces it is ftp and has a cash shop - there is an outrage: pay to win, cash grab, no regular updates, pay walls - O M G
when the game announces it has a sub there is an outrage as well: subs wont work anymore, cash grab, game is never worth so much money a year - O M G
...im really wondering what kind of business model players would think is appropriate besides completly free of course...
Buy to Play
Some publicity might be acceptable too.
Voluntary subscribtions to remove said publicity
Lower subscription cost.
Faster content release to match the value of the subscription costs.
I'm sure I missed a lot.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.
Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.
Regarding the bashing of developers who "don't listen to the community": This is one of the silliest and pointless comments/arguments I see around here. There is no like-minded community of gamers. Gamers come in all shapes and sizes, and when a developer listens to one member, they piss off two others. Developers need to stick with their vision and only respond to community concerns when they are received en masse.
MMO games keep more subscribers by slowing down subscribers' time to max level. The problem with SWTOR was it was too quick to max level. It's really that simple. If it takes 6 month to max level for ESO instead of one then it will be successful holding subs. If not, then it will join SWTOR in retention statistics.
The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.
Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.
So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".
Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!
Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.
Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.
So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".
Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!
Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.
Indeed.
The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !
Comments
"Everything is mine and your woman too"
Yep, i really want ISO level microtransactions as well. Wow a new zone...wait, won't let me in until i PAY FOR IT!
New raid, all the guild want to go...wait, I have to go get my credit card before it can go....
Modern MT's are becoming really really awful as games companies try to milk more from their cows, a subs fee with all-in content and no hidden fees is far preferrable for me.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
I don't know any F2P mmo that works that way ... so have no idea what you are talking about. XD
Every F2P game I ever played, I was always able to get pretty much full access to all areas, zones, or raids.
Though it does show your ignorance on what a F2P mmo is.
If you are going to bash the F2P model .. at least use something that is true.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
While it'll be sad to see an IP like TES get the SWTOR treatment, I think it's necessary for the industry to progress.
The sooner it goes F2P and the hivemind casuals leave after their free month, the better.
If game doesn't meet expectations, better let it die, than going F2P. Shut it down, put finger at head and then think what went wrong. It's easy to go F2P, but hard to make game worth money.
I particularly found this part of the article insightful:
The Elder Scrolls. The series has first and foremost always been the quintessential single player game. You, the hero, explore a vast countryside, taking on quests and saving the day. I don’t think many players ever stopped and thought “This would be so much better with 50 other versions of me running around with names above their heads.”
I will adhere to the NDA. But really, the NDA has to go. Now.
[mod edit]
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I have seen this countless times before, many many times. The fear mongoring and "will it fail" endless arguments. The game will release and not meet expectations, because let's be frank, nothing is perfect. Everyone will get angry and say the game was a failure, the cycle repeats itself.
I have seen it with over 10 MMOs since 2005 and the same will happen all over again. Why? Because everyones expectations are too high, the sea of fish is flooded with trolls and people who instead of voicing their concern, just want to see everything fail and never have any hope of getting anywhere.
I really feel like abandoning the MMO genre.
Hang in there FearGX we are not all fear mongoring doomsayers!
Any time anyone says the smallest negative thing about a game, suddenly the trolls, board warriors and fanboys calls them doomsayers that want the game to fail while going on long tirades about how they are going to abandon the genre over it. Maybe even going so far as to call them whiners while doing it.........
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I just dumped all my stock, cause "experts" like Forbes do not have a clue.
Waiting on Zenimax to go Public.
$$$$$$$$
I'm not surprised.
From what I've seen of TESO, it suffers from the same problem SWTOR, War and LOTRO suffered from before it. That is that the developers took a checklist of bog standard MMO mechanics and tried to wrap the TES franchise around them. What, imho, they should have done is start with the core mechanics and elements of the TES franchise and built those forward to being workable in a massive online environment.
TESO will not last as a sub game, and ZMO have made several huge mistakes. Developers and publishers need to LEARN, or the genre will continue to stagnate.
And the funny thing about that is we have already seen it in MMO games so we know it can be done.
MMOs have been open world. MMOs have had no classes and allows you to train up each and every skill in the game (like TSW). MMOs have had factions with no racial locks. MMOs have had races with no faction locks. MMOs have allowed you to join factions after character creation, even switching sides like in SWG. MMOs have had in game mods as in The Foundry in Neverwinter, CoH and even the guild quest builder in SWG and worse yet, upcoming games like Shroud of the Avatar is going to allow players to make entire areas, towns, armor, weapons, NPCs, quests and sell them in an online shop!
TESO looks like it wasn't made with TES in mind, it looks like they were going to make DaoC 2 and suddenly had to make it into TES after starting.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Extremely ignorant statement. No time in the history of game development has a developer dropped their NDA so they can enter an open debate with the public when 99.99% of the game has already been developed so they can listen and then remake the entire game.
Welcome back to reality.
You stay sassy!
Speaking of reality.
In which one do developers listen to the community before its too late?
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
New raid, all the guild want to go .... wait I have to get out my credit card and pay my sub before I can go .... a sub is a transaction.
You can automate the sub - but you can automate the payment for content drops as well, premium memberships etc.
Not having a sub doesn't mean a game has to have a cash shop with micro-transactions.
Buy to Play
Some publicity might be acceptable too.
Voluntary subscribtions to remove said publicity
Lower subscription cost.
Faster content release to match the value of the subscription costs.
I'm sure I missed a lot.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
I would like to comment on a few things:
The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.
Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.
Regarding the bashing of developers who "don't listen to the community": This is one of the silliest and pointless comments/arguments I see around here. There is no like-minded community of gamers. Gamers come in all shapes and sizes, and when a developer listens to one member, they piss off two others. Developers need to stick with their vision and only respond to community concerns when they are received en masse.
MMO games keep more subscribers by slowing down subscribers' time to max level. The problem with SWTOR was it was too quick to max level. It's really that simple. If it takes 6 month to max level for ESO instead of one then it will be successful holding subs. If not, then it will join SWTOR in retention statistics.
So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".
Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!
Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Indeed.
The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !