Originally posted by DeVoDeVo If I'm the type that avoids PVP at all costs, would my gameplay be limited to just 1/3 of the ESO world?
No , you will have Adventure Zones at 50 END GAME to explore, and they will be the two zones of the other starting alliances but phaed for lvl 50 gameplay, solo, small group and raid content. So you willh ave twice as much PVE as what you start with.... in the future I have no doubt they'll have an expansion that is a future Cyrodiil. Not sure yet on that one though.
That is NOT what adventure zones are, adventure zones are end game content with areas designed for groups of 12+ people, what you are describing is what the devs call 50+ and 50++ content
I also thought i read somewhere that the 50++ content is more suitable to grouping, but I'm not sure anymore lol
Originally posted by DeVoDeVo If I'm the type that avoids PVP at all costs, would my gameplay be limited to just 1/3 of the ESO world?
No , you will have Adventure Zones at 50 END GAME to explore, and they will be the two zones of the other starting alliances but phaed for lvl 50 gameplay, solo, small group and raid content. So you willh ave twice as much PVE as what you start with.... in the future I have no doubt they'll have an expansion that is a future Cyrodiil. Not sure yet on that one though.
That is NOT what adventure zones are, adventure zones are end game content with areas designed for groups of 12+ people, what you are describing is what the devs call 50+ and 50++ content
I also thought i read somewhere that the 50++ content is more suitable to grouping, but I'm not sure anymore lol
Well it is meant to get progressively harder as you progress through 50+ and 50++, so I could see the 50++ requiring at least some grouping, can't remember ZoS saying anything along those lines though tbh
In this interview the lead game dev Nick Konkle talks about a lot of things, and mentions that the game world is absolutely massive and bigger than the previous 3 Elder Scrolls games combined. He also says that the map for Cyrodil is the same size as in Oblivion, not smaller at all. When asked about freedom he also states the first few levels are more linear but it quickly opens up to freedom Elder Scrolls fans are familiar with.
Well I guess it depends on how you look at it. I'm sure ESO land masses are a lot bigger than those three games however what about all the detail? Does ESO have hundreds of little caves to explore that have absolutely nothing to do with the main story quest? Are you going to run into bandit caverns to clear out or a old ruin with a powerful mage going about mage business in it?
The physical world size isn't really important, it's all the details that fill it in that matters.
Lore items and Skyshards (for skills) are scattered all over the place (note, devs have said this so not breaking NDA). You will be rewarded for exploring or you can of course just pop up a map from the Internet with the locations and run to them if you desire.
I am not so sure what to make of your second statement. Mobs infesting caves / all areas are pretty much in every game. If there is an area there are mobs associated with that area.
They have said in interviews that there are caves to find while exploring. They will be solo instances just like in the ES games. Don't know if that means solo only or with your group as well if you are in one. These will be diferent than the group dungeons and public dungeons.
I really hope they can fulfill that promise. One of the things I really love about TES games and hate about MMO's is the relatively emptiness of the open world in most MMO's. There are no little nooks and crannies to explore and poke your head into only 1 or 2 dungeons that are for you current level and a straight path from a-b-c. It's that wonder of walking up to a opening in the ground and not knowing if your going to find a little cavern of bandits, spiders or a ancient ruin around every corner that brings games like Morrowind alive. (Well that and being able to pick up almost everything in the world) I can kind of understand why they don't do these kinds of things as I'm sure they are expensive to make and people level so fast in MMO's and are conditioned to follow the quest chains so much that most people will never see them but still most MMO's feel more like paintings than living worlds.
In this interview the lead game dev Nick Konkle talks about a lot of things, and mentions that the game world is absolutely massive and bigger than the previous 3 Elder Scrolls games combined. He also says that the map for Cyrodil is the same size as in Oblivion, not smaller at all. When asked about freedom he also states the first few levels are more linear but it quickly opens up to freedom Elder Scrolls fans are familiar with.
Well I guess it depends on how you look at it. I'm sure ESO land masses are a lot bigger than those three games however what about all the detail? Does ESO have hundreds of little caves to explore that have absolutely nothing to do with the main story quest? Are you going to run into bandit caverns to clear out or a old ruin with a powerful mage going about mage business in it?
The physical world size isn't really important, it's all the details that fill it in that matters.
Lore items and Skyshards (for skills) are scattered all over the place (note, devs have said this so not breaking NDA). You will be rewarded for exploring or you can of course just pop up a map from the Internet with the locations and run to them if you desire.
I am not so sure what to make of your second statement. Mobs infesting caves / all areas are pretty much in every game. If there is an area there are mobs associated with that area.
They have said in interviews that there are caves to find while exploring. They will be solo instances just like in the ES games. Don't know if that means solo only or with your group as well if you are in one. These will be diferent than the group dungeons and public dungeons.
I really hope they can fulfill that promise. One of the things I really love about TES games and hate about MMO's is the relatively emptiness of the open world in most MMO's. There are no little nooks and crannies to explore and poke your head into only 1 or 2 dungeons that are for you current level and a straight path from a-b-c. It's that wonder of walking up to a opening in the ground and not knowing if your going to find a little cavern of bandits, spiders or a ancient ruin around every corner that brings games like Morrowind alive. I can kind of understand why they don't do these kinds of things as I'm sure they are expensive to make and people level so fast in MMO's and are conditioned to follow the quest chains so much that most people will never see them but still most MMO's feel more like paintings than living worlds.
If there are little caves all over, like in Asheron's Call (that game had tons of little caves, dungeons that had nothing to do with anything, just there to explore), I might pick the game up. Especially, if I can go around and explore solo or in small groups. Maybe I can get my stealth gameplay fix hehe.
I thought this would be obvious as those games concentrate on ONE part of the world each. ESO has the whole of Tamriel with opportunities to expand into other parts of the planet Tamriel is on.
well if you fast travel in Skyrim, the world starts looking a lot smaller. In ESO you cant fast travel to nearly the same extent.
As far as being linear, well, any game with overarching quests can seem linear if you just go do the quests as fast as you can. If you just head out and explore and do stuff, it wouldn't be linear at all. A lot of folks simply do the main quests in a game as fast as they can, they don't explore, they don't do side quests, and naturally the game seems linear to them and quickly they begin complaining that they 'ran out of content', when really they just bypassed much of it.
You can lead a Cow to Water but you can't make her "Think"... Sometimes players are like that Cow. They don't want to think because that would require some effort on their part. And the sad part, when it comes to games, is that the Devs can't make up for that no matter how hard they try.
Near the end, I started to get the feeling like "this place might be huge" Now if you are the pve only type, you will be missing 1/3 of the world. Plus only seeing 25% of that 2/3 until 50.
Man if they could have allowed cross alliance travel from the start... There would have to be Wpvp though, then there would have to be different server types for the vocal minority...
Slight correction. Only seeing 33% till 50 for PVE.
And if they hand made the entire map explorable from the start with the choice of joining a faction an actual choice rather the locking certain races into certain factions pve'ers could have explored the world to their hearts content. Unfortunately the DAoC developers were stuck in a rut is seems and screwed that pooch up royally.
Originally posted by DeVoDeVo If I'm the type that avoids PVP at all costs, would my gameplay be limited to just 1/3 of the ESO world?
Its my understanding that , yes- In 2/3rds of the world you could potentially be attacked.
Each faction has 1/3 of the world so you would be in "enemy" territory. What remains to be seen (for me) is if there are ways for the factions to call some type of 'truce' for certain times. Then you would potentially have more of the World open without PVP.
I also could be totally wrong here and if I am someone will correct me- But Its my understanding that you will only be "safe" from PVP in your factions area or roughly 1/3rd.
Unless they have changed it since they announced how it would work, the only area where you will ever see players from a different faction is Cyrodiil. When, after finishing your own faction's content, you go to do the PvE from a different faction, you are in a special version of those areas for top level characters, not in the version occupied by the actual players from that faction. So if we assume each faction has an area roughly the same size as the PvP area, about 75% of the landmass in the game is non-PvP.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Slight correction. Only seeing 33% till 50 for PVE.
And if they hand made the entire map explorable from the start with the choice of joining a faction an actual choice rather the locking certain races into certain factions pve'ers could have explored the world to their hearts content. Unfortunately the DAoC developers were stuck in a rut is seems and screwed that pooch up royally.
Joining a faction is an actual choice. It just happens to be one you make during character creation.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by Doogiehowser Skyrim didn't even feel that big to me really.
Considering the area in its entirety - above and below ground, Skyrim's pretty large. However, when you combine that, with Oblivion's Cyrodil (which is large itself) and Morrowind - which is freaking ginormous - that's a damn big world map.
Of course, what matters more than the size of the world map is how well used that world map is.
It sounds great to say "we have a huge world map, bigger than the last 3 Elder Scrolls games combined!". But that quickly goes South if the world is also largely empty of content or anything interesting. Then it becomes a liability rather than a benefit.
Aventurine was tooting their own horn about how huge their world map was in DF 1.0. It became more an issue than a benefit, because it was also a very empty world, with people concentrating on limited "corners" of it. The rest was a virtual ghost-town, which actually lent to the game feeling dead, rather than alive. Now, while ESO will certainly have more people playing it than DF, the idea is still the same.
If it takes less than an hour to run from end of the map to the other, I call bullshit on their claim. Much like how skyrim was supposed to be really friggin large, never needed a horse and I ran everywhere since it would only take a few minutes to get anywhere.
Roses are red Violets are blue The reviewer has a mishapen head Which means his opinion is skewed ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
Slight correction. Only seeing 33% till 50 for PVE.
And if they hand made the entire map explorable from the start with the choice of joining a faction an actual choice rather the locking certain races into certain factions pve'ers could have explored the world to their hearts content. Unfortunately the DAoC developers were stuck in a rut is seems and screwed that pooch up royally.
Joining a faction is an actual choice. It just happens to be one you make during character creation.
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
^^^^THIS is the main reason why I have no interest in playing ESO
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
^^^^THIS is the main reason why I have no interest in playing ESO
This is a themepark with factions. Is there one out there that gives you that much freedom? Can you play an Alliance Orc in WOW?
If that's really important to you then you're restricted to just some sandboxes because even some of those have hard factions.
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Originally posted by lugal If it takes less than an hour to run from end of the map to the other, I call bullshit on their claim. Much like how skyrim was supposed to be really friggin large, never needed a horse and I ran everywhere since it would only take a few minutes to get anywhere.
That isn't really a fair judgement.
First, I assume EQ1 wasn't larger, the main reason it took you MUCH longer was because it was MUCH more dangerous with a lot more mobs.
Second, the largest world I knew was Star Wars Galaxies, but a lot of their landmass was empty space, and with Speederbike you still crossed one planet in about 20 min.
I too like worlds big, but one has to be realistic on his expectations.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs Originally posted by MarkusrindNot really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
^^^^THIS is the main reason why I have no interest in playing ESO
that sucks for you, seems like a silly reason to me.
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
You're playing a game with a provided story. Just like every other Elder Scrolls game. There are choices within that story, but they are choices specifically designed to be consistent with it. "Race traitor" is not a role the developers decided to include for the player character in that story. Wanting to play a Nord who sides with the Covenant is like wanting to play Skyrim with a character who isn't Dragonborn. You can want it all you want, but it doesn't fit their story, so you can't actually do it.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I won't be interested or buy any game based on size of world,example Eve is huge but full of empty meaningless space.I cam EASILY make a game world bigger than any you have played in about 1 hour,doesn't mean it will be full of content.
I liked Morrowind for it's time "a bit",Oblivion "a bit" and i quit Skyrim after 3 days,so they need to do a LOT better job of peaking my interest with their game than simply creating a large world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Mr.Kujo Really depends on how character relates to the world. If character is faster than in Skyrim, and you get on a even faster mount map may feel 10x smaller than in older games...
It also depends on how much content is packed into these larger areas.
I know for me the game world would extremely small if the density of places to explore isn't the same as those single player RPG's. In Skyrim you're never more then a minute or two from the nearest Point of Interest to wander into. Many times I felt overwhelmed with the things to do in Skyrim: Like do I visit this Mine, or that Dungeon or those ruins. All literally within walking distance on my Compass Hud.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
You're playing a game with a provided story. Just like every other Elder Scrolls game. There are choices within that story, but they are choices specifically designed to be consistent with it. "Race traitor" is not a role the developers decided to include for the player character in that story. Wanting to play a Nord who sides with the Covenant is like wanting to play Skyrim with a character who isn't Dragonborn. You can want it all you want, but it doesn't fit their story, so you can't actually do it.
Not entirely true, you can skip all of the main storyline in Skyrim and still have thousands of hours worth of content.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
You're playing a game with a provided story. Just like every other Elder Scrolls game. There are choices within that story, but they are choices specifically designed to be consistent with it. "Race traitor" is not a role the developers decided to include for the player character in that story. Wanting to play a Nord who sides with the Covenant is like wanting to play Skyrim with a character who isn't Dragonborn. You can want it all you want, but it doesn't fit their story, so you can't actually do it.
Not entirely true, you can skip all of the main storyline in Skyrim and still have thousands of hours worth of content.
Exaggerating doesn't help your argument - plain vanilla if you exclude storyline and factions (mages etc) doesn't have a meaningful "thousands of hours" unless you are doing the same content again and again and again.... which is pointless.
I love the game but lets not go overboard.
Without breaking ESO NDA I can say that there seemed a lot of exploration - in fact do crafting and you're really forced to explore....
Comments
I also thought i read somewhere that the 50++ content is more suitable to grouping, but I'm not sure anymore lol
There Is Always Hope!
Well it is meant to get progressively harder as you progress through 50+ and 50++, so I could see the 50++ requiring at least some grouping, can't remember ZoS saying anything along those lines though tbh
I really hope they can fulfill that promise. One of the things I really love about TES games and hate about MMO's is the relatively emptiness of the open world in most MMO's. There are no little nooks and crannies to explore and poke your head into only 1 or 2 dungeons that are for you current level and a straight path from a-b-c. It's that wonder of walking up to a opening in the ground and not knowing if your going to find a little cavern of bandits, spiders or a ancient ruin around every corner that brings games like Morrowind alive. (Well that and being able to pick up almost everything in the world) I can kind of understand why they don't do these kinds of things as I'm sure they are expensive to make and people level so fast in MMO's and are conditioned to follow the quest chains so much that most people will never see them but still most MMO's feel more like paintings than living worlds.
If there are little caves all over, like in Asheron's Call (that game had tons of little caves, dungeons that had nothing to do with anything, just there to explore), I might pick the game up. Especially, if I can go around and explore solo or in small groups. Maybe I can get my stealth gameplay fix hehe.
You can lead a Cow to Water but you can't make her "Think"... Sometimes players are like that Cow. They don't want to think because that would require some effort on their part. And the sad part, when it comes to games, is that the Devs can't make up for that no matter how hard they try.
Slight correction. Only seeing 33% till 50 for PVE.
And if they hand made the entire map explorable from the start with the choice of joining a faction an actual choice rather the locking certain races into certain factions pve'ers could have explored the world to their hearts content. Unfortunately the DAoC developers were stuck in a rut is seems and screwed that pooch up royally.
Unless they have changed it since they announced how it would work, the only area where you will ever see players from a different faction is Cyrodiil. When, after finishing your own faction's content, you go to do the PvE from a different faction, you are in a special version of those areas for top level characters, not in the version occupied by the actual players from that faction. So if we assume each faction has an area roughly the same size as the PvP area, about 75% of the landmass in the game is non-PvP.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Joining a faction is an actual choice. It just happens to be one you make during character creation.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Considering the area in its entirety - above and below ground, Skyrim's pretty large. However, when you combine that, with Oblivion's Cyrodil (which is large itself) and Morrowind - which is freaking ginormous - that's a damn big world map.
Of course, what matters more than the size of the world map is how well used that world map is.
It sounds great to say "we have a huge world map, bigger than the last 3 Elder Scrolls games combined!". But that quickly goes South if the world is also largely empty of content or anything interesting. Then it becomes a liability rather than a benefit.
Aventurine was tooting their own horn about how huge their world map was in DF 1.0. It became more an issue than a benefit, because it was also a very empty world, with people concentrating on limited "corners" of it. The rest was a virtual ghost-town, which actually lent to the game feeling dead, rather than alive. Now, while ESO will certainly have more people playing it than DF, the idea is still the same.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
Not really a free choice though. If I want to create a nord who sides with the dagger fall covenant because he is a weapon merchant and sees the benefit of the Breton trader getting to rule...sorry some random, ever changing hero to rule....theni am shit out of luck.
or perhaps I could be an Orc who wants to kill his Breton oppressors rather then join then like a coward...
it isn't a free choice because you cannot choose a race free of alliance.
^^^^THIS is the main reason why I have no interest in playing ESO
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
This is a themepark with factions. Is there one out there that gives you that much freedom? Can you play an Alliance Orc in WOW?
If that's really important to you then you're restricted to just some sandboxes because even some of those have hard factions.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That isn't really a fair judgement.
First, I assume EQ1 wasn't larger, the main reason it took you MUCH longer was because it was MUCH more dangerous with a lot more mobs.
Second, the largest world I knew was Star Wars Galaxies, but a lot of their landmass was empty space, and with Speederbike you still crossed one planet in about 20 min.
I too like worlds big, but one has to be realistic on his expectations.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
that sucks for you, seems like a silly reason to me.
I don't think the skyrim maps are large anyway.
it is large for a single player game, but surely not for an mmorpg.
You're playing a game with a provided story. Just like every other Elder Scrolls game. There are choices within that story, but they are choices specifically designed to be consistent with it. "Race traitor" is not a role the developers decided to include for the player character in that story. Wanting to play a Nord who sides with the Covenant is like wanting to play Skyrim with a character who isn't Dragonborn. You can want it all you want, but it doesn't fit their story, so you can't actually do it.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I won't be interested or buy any game based on size of world,example Eve is huge but full of empty meaningless space.I cam EASILY make a game world bigger than any you have played in about 1 hour,doesn't mean it will be full of content.
I liked Morrowind for it's time "a bit",Oblivion "a bit" and i quit Skyrim after 3 days,so they need to do a LOT better job of peaking my interest with their game than simply creating a large world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It also depends on how much content is packed into these larger areas.
I know for me the game world would extremely small if the density of places to explore isn't the same as those single player RPG's. In Skyrim you're never more then a minute or two from the nearest Point of Interest to wander into. Many times I felt overwhelmed with the things to do in Skyrim: Like do I visit this Mine, or that Dungeon or those ruins. All literally within walking distance on my Compass Hud.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Not entirely true, you can skip all of the main storyline in Skyrim and still have thousands of hours worth of content.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Exaggerating doesn't help your argument - plain vanilla if you exclude storyline and factions (mages etc) doesn't have a meaningful "thousands of hours" unless you are doing the same content again and again and again.... which is pointless.
I love the game but lets not go overboard.
Without breaking ESO NDA I can say that there seemed a lot of exploration - in fact do crafting and you're really forced to explore....
Bjoern / Sir Prime
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
The past 3 Elder Scrolls games have been quite small compared to your standard MMO.
By comparison if you were to combine Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim the total land mass would still be smaller than 1 of WoWs continents.