The whole point of the beta tests are for players to give them feedback to fix things or to stress test, they aren't for you to try the game or chat about it. They aren't demos, the fact the NDA is still there tells you that.
Very few games that you can buy allow you to play it without buying it before launch, if you want to talk about it wait until it launches.
And the point of a media only NDA lift?
Surely not to drum up hype for the game! That would be...preposterous.
The media always gets review copies before anyone else, skyrim for example was given to reviewers before anyone else got them.
Did you demand a skyrim demo?
This isn't Skyrim, and Skyrim didn't hand out over 500k beta keys, and only let a handful of people talk about what they're experiencing.
So tell me, what is the point of a media only NDA lift again?
The only reason they have a beta at all is because they have to test the servers, if not for that there would be no beta. This is a one way street, they are using you all as unpaid testers, nothing more and nothing less. People have this idea that they are letting you try the game to see if you like it, or to critique it before it launches but that's not what this is. Very few developers allow anyone to play the game before it launches.
As I said the press nda lift is a form of advertising, previews etc (they have strict rules on what they can report still and they know the press won't break those rules because they will be blacklisted in future if they do). It's their game and they decide the rules, an mmo is no different to an offline game. Skyrim cost just as much as this will and nobody demanded free plays and to be able to discuss those free plays before they would buy it.
THAT is how I want games be crafted: by facing public eye and public critique from day one. It is the only viable way of improvement.
Yeah, every MMO has that: It's called "launch." And I know you are talking about the actual creation process of the MMO coming under scrutiny rather than the finished product. But here's a hint: By the time the MMO gets to beta stage: It's been made. The things people complain about regarding the game are things that can't be changed at that point.
OMG, game is too linear!
OMG, exclamation points and quest hubs!
OMG, graphics suck!
These are the things that people complain about. And it's far too late to change them at that point.
SWTOR is the perfect example. They started creating the game when WoW was at its apex and the themepark model was the ONLY model making any money. By the time beta rolled around, people wanted more. But the core of the game had already been made. So would you complaining about it earlier in beta have made a bit of difference? Nope. They weren't going to scrap the whole project after all that money invested just because suddenly the MMO landscape had changed. At that point, they were past the point of no return.
Rarely do people complain about the small stuff. They complain about monumental issues they have with game design. And, for the most part, nothing can be done about that without a complete overhaul.
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA on EQNL, which is a minecraft type game.
The NDA for the MMO version of EQN is still in place.
Originally posted by neobahamut20 I now understand why there is an NDA.
No you dont. What is good must pass the fire of public critique. This isnt a year or two before release, this is 2 frigging months.
Yes he does. The lousy house of cards will crumble to pieces in no time when the NDA is lifted. If not, I give up all hope on the gaming community in terms of being awake.
99% of the people who will buy this game won't care what is said on these forums even if they read it. If your a fan of Elder Scrolls games and not turned off by the MMO aspects of it you will buy it. if you are a fan of theme park MMO's and tend to try all the big titles you will buy it as well. They will play the game and make up their own mind based on their own experiences post launch and really nothing anyone has to say on these boards will make a significant difference one way or another. When we use to buy video games in stores things like demo's where rare to non existent because the bandwidth to support them didn't exist. That wasn't that many years ago. I'm not saying demo's or public forums are a bad thing but I don't come here for advise on titles I want to play as this forum is so colored by personal opinion sold off as fact that any advise you do get is worthless.
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA because the game was being sold. Show me one early access game which is being sold and still has NDA., they are doing nothing special in that. ESO is not being sold, like i said pre-order can be cancelled anytime.
Before the Alpha release, they didn't release much information just like ESO. Both only released a few gameplay videos.
And like someone else said below, they haven't aid anything about the MMO EQ:N. Only the minigame that is EQ:NL.
Yes, SOE are taking the high route and doing some good things with EQ:NL but both are games in a different state while being entirely different in the genre as well. They can't be compared unless you want to go down the path of calling out every developer by comparing them to Valve.
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA because the game was being sold. Show me one early access game which is being sold and still has NDA., they are doing nothing special in that. ESO is not being sold, like i said pre-order can be cancelled anytime.
Before the Alpha release, they didn't release much information just like ESO. Both only released a few gameplay videos.
And like someone else said below, they haven't aid anything about the MMO EQ:N. Only the minigame that is EQ:NL.
Yes, SOE are taking the high route and doing some good things with EQ:NL but both are games in a different state while being entirely different in the genre as well. They can't be compared unless you want to go down the path of calling out every developer by comparing them to Valve.
Funny thing, you pay in full for the game, and there own site says pre PURCHASE on it. '
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA on EQNL, which is a minecraft type game.
The NDA for the MMO version of EQN is still in place.
EQNL is a MMO as well, get your facts straight. Just because it not yet another themepark does not make it a lesser game. Actually it is more fun then i had in themparks for the past 10 years.
As a second note: EQN itself is not even in alpha and won't be for quite some months. Hard to lift an NDA if there is no NDA and nothing more then a shell of a game.
Sure, go ahead and keep defending the stance Zenimax is showing here. But it is a weak show, really. Not lifting an NDA after about 1.000.000 people saw the beta is really silly.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA on EQNL, which is a minecraft type game.
The NDA for the MMO version of EQN is still in place.
Right you are ....... you don't think they will act the same way with EQN as they did with EQ:NL?
Seeing how open and interactive the development of Everquest Next landmark works... it is indeed sad to compare this to ESO. It really feels like the same old Dev crap all over again.
Not talking about the game itself here, but the stance they show. "We know everything better then the player. They don't know what they want, but we do!"... what a crap.
Lift that NDA and let us talk!
Why do people compare this with EQ:NL? Do they not understand that the only reason the NDA was lifted for EQ:NL is because they sold the Alpha access? Is it hard to comprehend it? Every game which has provided access to paid Alphas/Betas have lifted their NDAs. EQ:NL did nothing special. And before the Alpha, do tell me what open talks did you see from the developer? I would like to know this as i can't recall anything except for some videos which both sides have done so far.
They make the comparison to EQ:NL because SOE took the high route it seems.
I cannot stand SOE.
I really dislike Smedley.
I will never play that simple cartoon game.
But even I can admit when things are being handled impressively. Which is exactly how SOE is handling EQ:NL: NDA lifted, perhaps impulsively, but lifted none the less. Combined with a no questions money back guarantee ....... damn.
Thats how you do it .....
They lifted the NDA because the game was being sold. Show me one early access game which is being sold and still has NDA., they are doing nothing special in that. ESO is not being sold, like i said pre-order can be cancelled anytime.
Before the Alpha release, they didn't release much information just like ESO. Both only released a few gameplay videos.
And like someone else said below, they haven't aid anything about the MMO EQ:N. Only the minigame that is EQ:NL.
Yes, SOE are taking the high route and doing some good things with EQ:NL but both are games in a different state while being entirely different in the genre as well. They can't be compared unless you want to go down the path of calling out every developer by comparing them to Valve.
Funny thing, you pay in full for the game, and there own site says pre PURCHASE on it. '
I can refund lots of things I purchase.
Give me a MMO which you can refund after full purchase, not lots of things.
they don't need to lift NDA; if you are in beta, go to the beta forums and post a suggestion or report bugs there; chances are that all the stuff you want to talk about was already mentioned over the beta forums and probably Zenimax won't change anything at this point... I got a 2-hour of MMO fix though. I can play more but I am lazy today, even for this game ;(
I know this isn't the Zenimax forum, but since the Zenimax forum HAS no place to say this, and I am damn they look here, I say it.
ESO needs debate. It is not bad, but it has issues. Which need debate. Now.
There, I leaned out as far as I felt I could.
They do themselves a huge disservice if they keep the NDA any longer, especially since press already was allowed to talk. It makes me feel like a second best person, on top of it all.
I agree that the NDA needs lifting with the embargo on press coverage being relaxed this week but my reasons differ. Unlike you I am not sure we need a grand old voice in the feature development of TESO as I have seen such catering by development teams ruin games as often as I have seen it help them. Feedback really does need filtering through their "vision" for play to issues they can change or adjust with a knife to cut away wants that go against it. You could already accuse them of listening to the fans to negative effect with the faction lock and region lock waffling which clearly dilutes and hurts their initial vision of the game with so much feature content set and unable to be changed.
One of the biggest reasons they need to lift the NDA right now is for truth in reporting even though many of the controls they had in place were clearly meant to generate positive spin. Some of these press previews were clearly written by either a) people that didn't really play or b) paid shills and there is no one to keep people truthful or provide and real substantive debate or ideas in reply. I don't buy NDA protection of story content at all in a game that as you level proves clearly that PVE is a leveling outlet into AVA3 PVP (the game's real focus.)
Taken out of context as his views were expressed previously in the video... But it's humorous how he makes mention of such.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Why are people even *against* lifting the NDA? A large chunk of the press so far has been pretty neutral to negative. Does Zenimax really think they can change significant aspects of a game within 2 months?
To me, if a game is ready, and the developers are confident - lifting the NDA is a good thing because then you hear reviews from players who have been in the beta for the past few months. THOSE are the people I want to hear from - the people who made it past level 10.
There shouldn't even be a debate about whether the NDA should be lifted. There is no way that significant changes to the game's core will be made in the next 50-60 days.
If the game is great, lifting the NDA will only give it positive press from reliable sources. No one will be able to disregard reviews made by a player who has been playing for months. Everyone is looking at these press reviews through skeptical lenses whether they're good or bad because they've only experienced 10-15 levels of the game.
I smell a tragedy not unlike "The dead sea scrolls" coming our way, it has happened before, tortanic anyone ?
Same mistake all over again, Tortanic relied on NDA and the huge fan following thinking they could get away with making a crappy "wowification" of the franchise and the fan would give them money even if it was crappy.
I know this isn't the Zenimax forum, but since the Zenimax forum HAS no place to say this, and I am damn they look here, I say it.
ESO needs debate. It is not bad, but it has issues. Which need debate. Now.
There, I leaned out as far as I felt I could.
They do themselves a huge disservice if they keep the NDA any longer, especially since press already was allowed to talk. It makes me feel like a second best person, on top of it all.
Too late I'm afraid, and honestly, they have some plan that they follow and does not care about forums, afterall this game is coming from a "big studio" sort of. They probably get trained to ignore negative feedback.
Just please, some hacker, infiltrate the Zenimax HQ and add more crunchier combat sounds :]
Comments
The only reason they have a beta at all is because they have to test the servers, if not for that there would be no beta. This is a one way street, they are using you all as unpaid testers, nothing more and nothing less. People have this idea that they are letting you try the game to see if you like it, or to critique it before it launches but that's not what this is. Very few developers allow anyone to play the game before it launches.
As I said the press nda lift is a form of advertising, previews etc (they have strict rules on what they can report still and they know the press won't break those rules because they will be blacklisted in future if they do). It's their game and they decide the rules, an mmo is no different to an offline game. Skyrim cost just as much as this will and nobody demanded free plays and to be able to discuss those free plays before they would buy it.
Yeah, every MMO has that: It's called "launch." And I know you are talking about the actual creation process of the MMO coming under scrutiny rather than the finished product. But here's a hint: By the time the MMO gets to beta stage: It's been made. The things people complain about regarding the game are things that can't be changed at that point.
OMG, game is too linear!
OMG, exclamation points and quest hubs!
OMG, graphics suck!
These are the things that people complain about. And it's far too late to change them at that point.
SWTOR is the perfect example. They started creating the game when WoW was at its apex and the themepark model was the ONLY model making any money. By the time beta rolled around, people wanted more. But the core of the game had already been made. So would you complaining about it earlier in beta have made a bit of difference? Nope. They weren't going to scrap the whole project after all that money invested just because suddenly the MMO landscape had changed. At that point, they were past the point of no return.
Rarely do people complain about the small stuff. They complain about monumental issues they have with game design. And, for the most part, nothing can be done about that without a complete overhaul.
They lifted the NDA on EQNL, which is a minecraft type game.
The NDA for the MMO version of EQN is still in place.
99% of the people who will buy this game won't care what is said on these forums even if they read it. If your a fan of Elder Scrolls games and not turned off by the MMO aspects of it you will buy it. if you are a fan of theme park MMO's and tend to try all the big titles you will buy it as well. They will play the game and make up their own mind based on their own experiences post launch and really nothing anyone has to say on these boards will make a significant difference one way or another. When we use to buy video games in stores things like demo's where rare to non existent because the bandwidth to support them didn't exist. That wasn't that many years ago. I'm not saying demo's or public forums are a bad thing but I don't come here for advise on titles I want to play as this forum is so colored by personal opinion sold off as fact that any advise you do get is worthless.
They lifted the NDA because the game was being sold. Show me one early access game which is being sold and still has NDA., they are doing nothing special in that. ESO is not being sold, like i said pre-order can be cancelled anytime.
Before the Alpha release, they didn't release much information just like ESO. Both only released a few gameplay videos.
And like someone else said below, they haven't aid anything about the MMO EQ:N. Only the minigame that is EQ:NL.
Yes, SOE are taking the high route and doing some good things with EQ:NL but both are games in a different state while being entirely different in the genre as well. They can't be compared unless you want to go down the path of calling out every developer by comparing them to Valve.
Funny thing, you pay in full for the game, and there own site says pre PURCHASE on it. '
I can refund lots of things I purchase.
EQNL is a MMO as well, get your facts straight. Just because it not yet another themepark does not make it a lesser game. Actually it is more fun then i had in themparks for the past 10 years.
As a second note: EQN itself is not even in alpha and won't be for quite some months. Hard to lift an NDA if there is no NDA and nothing more then a shell of a game.
Sure, go ahead and keep defending the stance Zenimax is showing here. But it is a weak show, really. Not lifting an NDA after about 1.000.000 people saw the beta is really silly.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Pssst,
Trove.
Right you are ....... you don't think they will act the same way with EQN as they did with EQ:NL?
http://www.straightdope.com/
Give me a MMO which you can refund after full purchase, not lots of things.
I agree that the NDA needs lifting with the embargo on press coverage being relaxed this week but my reasons differ. Unlike you I am not sure we need a grand old voice in the feature development of TESO as I have seen such catering by development teams ruin games as often as I have seen it help them. Feedback really does need filtering through their "vision" for play to issues they can change or adjust with a knife to cut away wants that go against it. You could already accuse them of listening to the fans to negative effect with the faction lock and region lock waffling which clearly dilutes and hurts their initial vision of the game with so much feature content set and unable to be changed.
One of the biggest reasons they need to lift the NDA right now is for truth in reporting even though many of the controls they had in place were clearly meant to generate positive spin. Some of these press previews were clearly written by either a) people that didn't really play or b) paid shills and there is no one to keep people truthful or provide and real substantive debate or ideas in reply. I don't buy NDA protection of story content at all in a game that as you level proves clearly that PVE is a leveling outlet into AVA3 PVP (the game's real focus.)
@ ; 5:12
Taken out of context as his views were expressed previously in the video... But it's humorous how he makes mention of such.
Why are people even *against* lifting the NDA? A large chunk of the press so far has been pretty neutral to negative. Does Zenimax really think they can change significant aspects of a game within 2 months?
To me, if a game is ready, and the developers are confident - lifting the NDA is a good thing because then you hear reviews from players who have been in the beta for the past few months. THOSE are the people I want to hear from - the people who made it past level 10.
There shouldn't even be a debate about whether the NDA should be lifted. There is no way that significant changes to the game's core will be made in the next 50-60 days.
If the game is great, lifting the NDA will only give it positive press from reliable sources. No one will be able to disregard reviews made by a player who has been playing for months. Everyone is looking at these press reviews through skeptical lenses whether they're good or bad because they've only experienced 10-15 levels of the game.
Would love to see the NDA drop. Especially want to know more about end game PvP.
GW2 offered refunds during the first month of launch (if you bought it direct from ANET)
but i agree - its very rare for mmos to give refunds
that's why i was surprised SOE is offering refunds if dissatisfied with paying for alpha
EQ2 fan sites
I smell a tragedy not unlike "The dead sea scrolls" coming our way, it has happened before, tortanic anyone ?
Same mistake all over again, Tortanic relied on NDA and the huge fan following thinking they could get away with making a crappy "wowification" of the franchise and the fan would give them money even if it was crappy.
Too late I'm afraid, and honestly, they have some plan that they follow and does not care about forums, afterall this game is coming from a "big studio" sort of. They probably get trained to ignore negative feedback.
Just please, some hacker, infiltrate the Zenimax HQ and add more crunchier combat sounds :]