Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
I haven't seen dynamic content that is fun yet .. except may be random dungeons in D3. I would much rather have professionally produced content with NO (or little) repetition.
Or may be done with a ARPG type mechanics where combat is more fun.
They become terrible when valuable rewards are tied to them, or they're the only proper source of income.
They should give out little optional bonuses and extras, but never be a primary means of progression.
Sounds to me more like you are referring to repeatables not dailies. Repeatables offer little bonuses and extras for whenever you wanna do them. Dailies actually require you to do them daily or there is a drawback when you miss a day or two here or there.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Smells like an "I don't like theme parks" or "I don't like new games" rant to me.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game?
Based on the current MMO population...the answer is a resounding yes. Although to be fair...most of us have yet to actually played / seen / read about an ideal sandbox. If one ever comes into existence, perhaps the pendulum will swing a bit.
Exactly. We have no ideal sandbox. We just have piles of stinking turd gank-fests dressed up in the guise of sandboxes.
That's my point. It's not that themeparks are evil or not fun, but that a true sandbox, a living, breathing, dynamic world, will always win over a themepark. For now, all we have are those themeparks, so we might as well enjoy them. But if we ever hope to see the rise of a true sandbox, the only way that will happen is to complain about it and push developers in that direction. The complaints and rants themselves are, perhaps, the only way to communicate our interest in dynamic worlds while still enjoying themepark content (as the only other way to communicate interest would be to stop playing themeparks altogether.)
Smells like an "I don't like theme parks" or "I don't like new games" rant to me.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
Now as for whining and complaining, I'm fine when people do it, because it means companies might take notice faster and figure out ways to really bring the proper dynamic sandbox into being, rather than all the turds that've released up to this point (Eve excluded, but that one has it's own pile of problems.)
That doesn't mean everyone hates themeparks. I don't mind them. I don't like them as much as the idea of a proper sandbox. But if they're all I have to choose from, well, might as well have fun as I can.
But unless you actually like doing the same thing day after day (I don't know, maybe your worklife is super exciting so you just want a break from all that diversity and prefer to relax with a brain numbing shot of dailies,) I wouldn't get upset about someone ranting over themeparks. More complaints = more change. Maybe if there were more complaints, games like Archeage wouldn't pull SWG CUs and shoot themselves and their sandbox in the foot in an effort to be more WoW-like.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Smells like an "I don't like theme parks" or "I don't like new games" rant to me.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
Now as for whining and complaining, I'm fine when people do it, because it means companies might take notice faster and figure out ways to really bring the proper dynamic sandbox into being, rather than all the turds that've released up to this point (Eve excluded, but that one has it's own pile of problems.)
That doesn't mean everyone hates themeparks. I don't mind them. I don't like them as much as the idea of a proper sandbox. But if they're all I have to choose from, well, might as well have fun as I can.
But unless you actually like doing the same thing day after day (I don't know, maybe your worklife is super exciting so you just want a break from all that diversity and prefer to relax with a brain numbing shot of dailies,) I wouldn't get upset about someone ranting over themeparks. More complaints = more change. Maybe if there were more complaints, games like Archeage wouldn't pull SWG CUs and shoot themselves and their sandbox in the foot in an effort to be more WoW-like.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
We'll see when we have a choice. Right now 'market prefers' this because it's everything we got now. I don't play ten years old games anymore even if i liked them when they were new, so comparing new themeparks with the old sandbox games don't work.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
Yes, because an "ideal" sandbox game is YOU are the content and YOU create the content.
If I'm always THE content and always creating THE content, I should be paid for wasting my life in these pay games (yes, F2P isn't free), instead of paying for it. I pay devs for entertainment, not pay them and create it myself. THAT'S LAZY. -_-
Dailies are fine as long as it's not rote and set. Nothing is worse than doing the same set of quests every day, and it's tied to gear so your army of alts have something to wear, to do those very dailies within their lifetime. WoW's 5.1 dailies were horrible as it tied gear AND rep to them, and that meant alts couldn't get geared up nor tradeskills, either. I didn't even bother to level my alts to 90 (just a harvester), it became pointless.
I'm very curious how you think instanced pvp is bad. The alternative is zerging which is about as difficult and player skill based as shuffleboard. Running around with 40 other people tab targeting doors and watching T.V is hardly the PvP I get excited for.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
I too do not mind dailies at all when they are un-forced and actually rewarding.
GW2 I think does a great job of Daily/Monthly as you get to choose (with a limited set) your tasks to complete, get a reward for doing so, and make progress on Monthly goals at the same time.
Good blend of instant + longer term gratification. Good reward structure.
Interesting, I did try GW2 when my son bought it, got a character to level 15 as I recall. Once thing I disliked about it was the daily quests that popped up. Instead of pursuing whatever goal I wanted, there was this list of activities the game wanted me to do.
it really came to roost when I would get "kill water monsters" while in a snow or desert zone, the completionist in me just went wild knowing I had this unfinished task.
I dislike holiday events for the same reason, they derail me from following my "plan" and require participation "now" or the window of opportunity is missed.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Simsu I have no problem with dailies in that I have no problem with quests that you can repeat every day. What I do have a problem with is essentially mandatory dailies (to gain access to certain items/content) or dailies that are a "significant" portion of what the developers expect people to be doing for "fun."
Pretty much this for me, too. Dailies I am OK with as long as they are a choice. When they become mandatory, I am either rolling up an alt or leaving the game.
I also agree with the "achievements" haters. I don't need a pat on my back to do almost anything in a video game. If I want to explore, I'll explore. I don't need (or want) a "100% Explored!" achievement at the end.
If they toned them down and gave achievements ONLY for true "achievements", like beating boss mobs or completing important quests, I could see it and they would not be so bad. Reaching level 5? Who cares?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Smells like an "I don't like theme parks" or "I don't like new games" rant to me.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
Now as for whining and complaining, I'm fine when people do it, because it means companies might take notice faster and figure out ways to really bring the proper dynamic sandbox into being, rather than all the turds that've released up to this point (Eve excluded, but that one has it's own pile of problems.)
That doesn't mean everyone hates themeparks. I don't mind them. I don't like them as much as the idea of a proper sandbox. But if they're all I have to choose from, well, might as well have fun as I can.
But unless you actually like doing the same thing day after day (I don't know, maybe your worklife is super exciting so you just want a break from all that diversity and prefer to relax with a brain numbing shot of dailies,) I wouldn't get upset about someone ranting over themeparks. More complaints = more change. Maybe if there were more complaints, games like Archeage wouldn't pull SWG CUs and shoot themselves and their sandbox in the foot in an effort to be more WoW-like.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
People prefer the rewards. Take that out of themeparks and they would end almost immediately. No bribes = No Play.
Take out the rewards and the mechanisms used to house them, and you have a sandbox. Gamify a sandbox and you have a thempark.
It's the rewards. And Devs emptied the treasury.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It never bothered me when I ground for primals nearly every day for several weeks to make Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike armor in early TBC WoW, or doing Netherwing dailies for a mount.
I think having an end that the player shoots for can make all the difference: you have to do this for 25 days, but if you do then you're done, and you have X to show for it.
Dailies become a problem, at least for me, when you're given them to do in perpetuity (or at least until new dailies make them obsolete) because they're simply the best or only way to allow you to keep progressing in the game.
The best way i've been explained sanbox is thats its alot like communism, as in: Its good on the paper, but the fact is its never been done right, and its to prone to exploits.
That beeing said if i have to make the containt for myself to enjoy then i would most likely just drop that game and go to another that have the content ready for me to enjoy, if i had the talent to creat the content in the first place i would most likely try to earn money with it instead of wasteing my time with creating it just for myself.
I dont know if achievements are a "terrible" thing, It gives you some way of differentiating yourself in a sea of gear clones. They also give players some different goals or ideas of things to do in the game.
#5 Endgame.
The games over, you've reached the end.
Agree on all of these. Achievements are terrible for me because they function as a big neon sign reminder that I'm playing a video game not participating in a virtual world. Nothing wrecks my immersion faster than a bunch of moronic achievement spam. I mean, if there were just a few I could ignore them but recent games give you an achievement for everything. So annoying if you're a simulationist gamer like me.
I will agree with your sentiment about achievements. I dont think they are bad, but handing them out for anything and everything cheapens the meaning of the word. yay you killed 10 boars, now 20, now, 30. Instead of yay you killed 1000 boars.
See .. this is what I don't like at all. It just makes me feel bad to be shown that I just killed my 1000th boar or fished my 1000th fish ... that's just depressing.
Daily quests are the precursor to what some have called the holy grail of PvE longevity: procedurally generated content.
They're terrible right now because they're still primitive. But the alternatives are a future of content that goes stale before the next update comes out, or shifting to the more pvp-oriented "emergent behavioral content" that CCP (and, of late, Smedley) talk about.
Instanced PvP... has it's market. I'm not a fan of it, but I don't begrudge it's existence. Just... don't try to push it into every damn game. Ditto for quest-hubbing.
GW2 has dallies and no disaster. The cool thing is it doesn't matter if you miss days because any idiot can get exotic gear - which is good enough for the whole game. Do enough dallies and you get ascended stuff - but its only 5% better. WoW OTOH ran into some trouble with their lazy dallies schemes.
Of course in fairness to WoW they didn't see another way out. They had a bunch of bad players clamoring for advancement but not wanting to raid or do dungeons. So 'dallies' seemed like the answer. Oh well.. I think they learned.
Of course in fairness to WoW they didn't see another way out. They had a bunch of bad players clamoring for advancement but not wanting to raid or do dungeons. So 'dallies' seemed like the answer. Oh well.. I think they learned.
Scenerios are the way out of the quest grind -- and look mom -- more tokens and they only require 3 players, too!
it's odd that you exclude wow, because they're the only mmo I've played with a truly terrible implementation of dailies. Other games use them effectively just to add an alternative option to gain rep with a faction or gain holiday event currency. WoW used them as the sole way to gain faction rep and treated doing a score of them each day as repeatable content. Unlocking the Sunwell was a good implementation, but Blizzard is the only company I've encountered that has turned daily into a bad word.
The best way i've been explained sanbox is thats its alot like communism, as in: Its good on the paper, but the fact is its never been done right, and its to prone to exploits.
EVE's had a substantial player base for 11 years and is still growing. It works pretty well (whether you like it or not is beside the point. I don't like WoW but won't deny the fact that it works well enough for the people who enjoy it.)
I agree OP.. I loathe doing dailies, just like the instance bs.. I don't mind things being tied to reputation and rewards, but it shouldn't be as restrictive as it's become.. Thinking back to EQ for example.. I used to farm loot like deathfist belts for rep, exp and coin.. I loved that bugle call:
Doing dailies in modern day games is "Pavlov's Dog" pure and simple.. Facebook games love to use the same trick.. First part of avoiding a trap is knowing it's there.. I pretty much avoid all games anymore that try to play me with psych tricks..
Comments
I haven't seen dynamic content that is fun yet .. except may be random dungeons in D3. I would much rather have professionally produced content with NO (or little) repetition.
Or may be done with a ARPG type mechanics where combat is more fun.
Dailies are bad.
Repeatable quests are ok.
Don't tell me how much i can play in one day
Sounds to me more like you are referring to repeatables not dailies. Repeatables offer little bonuses and extras for whenever you wanna do them. Dailies actually require you to do them daily or there is a drawback when you miss a day or two here or there.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Exactly. We have no ideal sandbox. We just have piles of stinking turd gank-fests dressed up in the guise of sandboxes.
That's my point. It's not that themeparks are evil or not fun, but that a true sandbox, a living, breathing, dynamic world, will always win over a themepark. For now, all we have are those themeparks, so we might as well enjoy them. But if we ever hope to see the rise of a true sandbox, the only way that will happen is to complain about it and push developers in that direction. The complaints and rants themselves are, perhaps, the only way to communicate our interest in dynamic worlds while still enjoying themepark content (as the only other way to communicate interest would be to stop playing themeparks altogether.)
Agreed. There are now even online ARPG's out there with "daily quests". No thanks.
I don't think they've been really all that great for WoW either, FWIW. I could see Blizzard moving away from them in the next expansion.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
We'll see when we have a choice. Right now 'market prefers' this because it's everything we got now. I don't play ten years old games anymore even if i liked them when they were new, so comparing new themeparks with the old sandbox games don't work.
Yes, because an "ideal" sandbox game is YOU are the content and YOU create the content.
If I'm always THE content and always creating THE content, I should be paid for wasting my life in these pay games (yes, F2P isn't free), instead of paying for it. I pay devs for entertainment, not pay them and create it myself. THAT'S LAZY. -_-
Dailies are fine as long as it's not rote and set. Nothing is worse than doing the same set of quests every day, and it's tied to gear so your army of alts have something to wear, to do those very dailies within their lifetime. WoW's 5.1 dailies were horrible as it tied gear AND rep to them, and that meant alts couldn't get geared up nor tradeskills, either. I didn't even bother to level my alts to 90 (just a harvester), it became pointless.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
Interesting, I did try GW2 when my son bought it, got a character to level 15 as I recall. Once thing I disliked about it was the daily quests that popped up. Instead of pursuing whatever goal I wanted, there was this list of activities the game wanted me to do.
it really came to roost when I would get "kill water monsters" while in a snow or desert zone, the completionist in me just went wild knowing I had this unfinished task.
I dislike holiday events for the same reason, they derail me from following my "plan" and require participation "now" or the window of opportunity is missed.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I also agree with the "achievements" haters. I don't need a pat on my back to do almost anything in a video game. If I want to explore, I'll explore. I don't need (or want) a "100% Explored!" achievement at the end.
If they toned them down and gave achievements ONLY for true "achievements", like beating boss mobs or completing important quests, I could see it and they would not be so bad. Reaching level 5? Who cares?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
People prefer the rewards. Take that out of themeparks and they would end almost immediately. No bribes = No Play.
Take out the rewards and the mechanisms used to house them, and you have a sandbox. Gamify a sandbox and you have a thempark.
It's the rewards. And Devs emptied the treasury.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It never bothered me when I ground for primals nearly every day for several weeks to make Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike armor in early TBC WoW, or doing Netherwing dailies for a mount.
I think having an end that the player shoots for can make all the difference: you have to do this for 25 days, but if you do then you're done, and you have X to show for it.
Dailies become a problem, at least for me, when you're given them to do in perpetuity (or at least until new dailies make them obsolete) because they're simply the best or only way to allow you to keep progressing in the game.
The best way i've been explained sanbox is thats its alot like communism, as in: Its good on the paper, but the fact is its never been done right, and its to prone to exploits.
That beeing said if i have to make the containt for myself to enjoy then i would most likely just drop that game and go to another that have the content ready for me to enjoy, if i had the talent to creat the content in the first place i would most likely try to earn money with it instead of wasteing my time with creating it just for myself.
Correct on daily though I believe your number two should just be the word "quest"
I feel like quests and questing in general has really run it's course and no amount of celebrity voice acting can cover that up anymore.
See .. this is what I don't like at all. It just makes me feel bad to be shown that I just killed my 1000th boar or fished my 1000th fish ... that's just depressing.
Daily quests are the precursor to what some have called the holy grail of PvE longevity: procedurally generated content.
They're terrible right now because they're still primitive. But the alternatives are a future of content that goes stale before the next update comes out, or shifting to the more pvp-oriented "emergent behavioral content" that CCP (and, of late, Smedley) talk about.
Instanced PvP... has it's market. I'm not a fan of it, but I don't begrudge it's existence. Just... don't try to push it into every damn game. Ditto for quest-hubbing.
Why does wow get a pass?.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
GW2 has dallies and no disaster. The cool thing is it doesn't matter if you miss days because any idiot can get exotic gear - which is good enough for the whole game. Do enough dallies and you get ascended stuff - but its only 5% better. WoW OTOH ran into some trouble with their lazy dallies schemes.
Of course in fairness to WoW they didn't see another way out. They had a bunch of bad players clamoring for advancement but not wanting to raid or do dungeons. So 'dallies' seemed like the answer. Oh well.. I think they learned.
Scenerios are the way out of the quest grind -- and look mom -- more tokens and they only require 3 players, too!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
EVE's had a substantial player base for 11 years and is still growing. It works pretty well (whether you like it or not is beside the point. I don't like WoW but won't deny the fact that it works well enough for the people who enjoy it.)
I agree OP.. I loathe doing dailies, just like the instance bs.. I don't mind things being tied to reputation and rewards, but it shouldn't be as restrictive as it's become.. Thinking back to EQ for example.. I used to farm loot like deathfist belts for rep, exp and coin.. I loved that bugle call:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vribwyvnw3c
Doing dailies in modern day games is "Pavlov's Dog" pure and simple.. Facebook games love to use the same trick.. First part of avoiding a trap is knowing it's there.. I pretty much avoid all games anymore that try to play me with psych tricks..
GRIND.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"