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Stealther ganking
Raventree
Member Posts: 456
I have been PVPing since the first week of DAoC and in every single MMO I have played I have tried to play the class I like and then been forced to switch to a stealther class because of the unfair advantage of stealth. I have read the forums and there are those who constantly deny that stealthing is an unfair advantage, but when you have the option to attack an enemy without being seen first, you ALWAYS have an unfair advantage. Throw in the incredible burst that is given to virtually every stealthier class and your enemy is half dead before they are even able to react. I often find myself feeling sorry for my enemy while I am playing my stealther and wanting to strangle a dev when I try to switch to any other class.
Now that ESO is arriving I have been looking at stealth mechanics, since I am trying to determine if I will again be forced to choose between being the victim or the perpetrator, as usually is the case. While all classes appear to be able to sneak and become invisible, it isn't clear to me how big of an advantage the Nightshade will have, nor whether his opening burst will make him a 1v1 god.
Does anyone have any information on this? My favorite class is always a caster, but I am wondering if I won't again be forced to play the stealther just to neutralize the unfair advantage factor.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
Comments
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Just depends on the game. I've played more than a few MMOs in my time and I can say with confidence that stealthers are not always the best. Some games stealthers are amazing at both avoiding death and killing individual targets that they gank. In some games, stealthers are really weak in combat.
Aion is a great example. I played a gladiator (plate / dpslite class) and I could kill 2x assassins at the same time with little effort.
Just depends on the mechanics. in ESO, the invis of a nightblade only lasts a few seconds at most I think. Sneaking I think is just for NPC agro, though I could be wrong. But if it's how I think it is (where sneak does not make you invisible to players) then they will certainly not have much of an advantage like you're talking about, if any at all.
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Well, i was ganked in cyrodiilll during beta by 2 nightblades.... And it was bloody my own fault, running around solo withouth sneaking is like asking all thos nightblades, hey look at me i am your target..
i bet that when i would have been sneaking while moving around they would never have noticed me..
i think sneaking will make everyone hard to detect as long as the range is big enough..
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There are several skills in the game that count as executes. I know the NB has one and the Sorc has one. So some skill lines are better at burst than others. However, said bursts required that the target be under a certain percentage for it to function at full effectiveness.
However, the sneak passives (better sneaking) seemed to have very little impact on my detection. The pvp areas are just so open that I can easily skirt around zergs and pick my targets.
I ran solo (not even grouped) for almost a full day on one of the beta weekends... Playing a High Elf Templar with a Sword and Shield in Heavy Armor. Sneaking all over the place and I did just fine. I played against and along side other NBs and I killed more than killed me.
Having said that... I think the Sorc or any other class could be just as effective at the "gank" if you took the skills for the job.
Everyone can sneak and everyone can take medium armor for the sneak passives if they desire. The racial passives that add a bit more sneak, have not been that important. You can even start hitting diminishing returns on those stats (just like any other stat). This keeps it from being overpowered and encourages you to spread your points more evenly.
The only thing to really fear when sneaking is Magelight, that is the only "true" detection skill and that is part of the Mage Guild skill line, so anyone can take it. That takes up one of your slots though and thus makes you less effective at combat if you are carrying it around while trying to solo. Seems like a skill a group would take and even then, it doesn't make the detection radius insanely big, just a little bigger.
Its as if they look at the lore of the stealther that goes after weak targets and succeeds and just focus on making that work. Even though in a game its different since 1. balance is important and 2. the stealths target is not some weakling found in regualr lore but an actual hero other players play.
Stealth classes need more utility and less damage to make their class more than just pure damage. Of course following the trend of stealth damage is simple to balance and is what sells.
It reminds of WAR and how the fire mage was way over powered. Of course everyone would play one in pvp, and someone on the opposing faction would get pwned. Its a similar thing.
It seems that it is the trade mark easy pvp character that everyone goes for. So even though its not mentioned directly, anyone that does not role a stealth class is looking for a 'challenge', or to play with a handicap against stealthers. Its retarded, but that seems to be the logic if you want to even call it that.
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I can't wait until people figure out that NB isn't the only stealth build you can make. The bigger picture though is that you can make many builds eventually and simply play the style you want situationally. I wouldn't imagine stealth gankers are going to be wanted in siege warfare. Ride in groups and solo gankers won't be an issue.
The video showing a higher level NB archer ganking solo low level beta players was silly. Nobody broke cc, hardly anyone blocked and los seemed unknown the the players. It was like fishing with a shotgun in a barrel. It will not be like that at vet levels.
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While i cannot say that "Hiding" will be overpowered in this game, its a huge thing to consider. I was pvping solo and in a small group during the beta, and i could choose my fights and escape waves of enemies easily by crouching *hiding*
I myself will be nightblade bow as i was in beta, and i had no problems, now the thing to be worried about when ganking, you wont ever know if that one lonly target has 3 stealthed friends with him... so choose your targets wisly.. i had fun ganking kids one on one, i could 3-4 shot them at level 13-15. assuming later the stealth may wear off to those classes who can counter it.. AKA Heavy melee, or a beast healer that is ready for you.
Nightblade def needs the *shock and awe* to do well if your going full offensive.. if you get caught out of stealth, you better hope your skilled enough to get yourself out of it..
The negative i had, i would kill someone in the open, and someone would see me and come at me, and my magicka and stam regens so slowly, i know this is because of low level, but still it was hard for me to counter another player at full health coming at me, after i blew all my stam and magicka to gank a player.
Yes, this is prettymuch how I have seen it, as well. The inherent unfair advantage of stealth becomes even worse when you apply all of the burst from stealth mechanics typical of most MMOs. Even when I have been fairly effective at killing stealth gankers, I have found that I need an almost perfect string of countermoves, since even a slight mistake results in a severely lopsided death.
While ESO seems to have made an attempt at balancing this, I am still unsure if I will regularly find myself at 50% health and dropping before I am even able to respond. If this is the case, I might as well just go Nightshade, since if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I would really prefer to be able to finally play a caster that isn't just free kills for any stealther that happens by, though.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
Sneak gives you stealth. Quotes here in this thread http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6194084/thread/405703#6194084
An enemy player is stealthed when sneaking until he is detected. Which happens for your character with a frontal cone, that resembles your character's field of vision. A player approaching you from the rear or the sides is not visible for you until he enters your gone. And I would the assume does not pop out but rather fades in over 1-2sec.
Like the typical "Eye" icon then indicates the detection level.
This is different with Invisibility. An invisible player can not be detected other than by a spell that reveals this effect. This spell then also reveals crouched players.
From what I have seen so far the Stealth in this game is made very well. I play stealth classes in every MMORPG so this is why it concerned me aswell and I started thread(s) about it.
well, stealth is in most MMOs at least at good mechanic for being an *insert your insult* since, as the OP says, you can gank an opponent to at least half of their health before they even can react. In a duel situation where you know about the stealth though, it's a different matter, but still.
Not sure about TESO, but it looks as if you will get an advantage out of it, as mentioned above. Oh well, *shrugs*
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I always love the people saying it is unfair, and it's even funnier here in ESO.
Bottom line is everyone can sneak, so it's not in the least unfair. Every class has strengths and weakness, so should we all complain about and nerf things down? Either put on your big boy pants and deal with, and embrace that your own class has it's own strength, or stop griping about it. All this sounds like is "Ooohhh, I hate it happening to me, I just want to nuke someone down on my own terms."
Pre-mount I can see it being a bigger issue, but like most games, a standing stealther is going to have issues catching a mounted player, unless of course the mounted player is not paying attention, or does something silly.
Look, I think everyone hates getting ganked, and stealth is an easy target, but like an earlier poster mentioned, take a Bright Wizard in WAR, was he ganking because he did so much damage, or did he play to his strengths? (which admittedly could be considered OP)
Stealth is pretty well balanced here, and just about everyone is going to suffer a transit death or two, nature of the game. If you watch video's, you'll see plenty of Dragon Knights who started in stealth as well.
Nature of the genre.
There is a lot of what I like to think of as "strategic denying" that happens regarding stealth classes, whether because people don't want their class nerfed or because they prefer to think that they win because they are so awesome. Being able to attack and drop someone to around 50% health before they can respond or even see you coming is an inherent advantage though, no matter how many ganker wannabes refuse to admit it. And I say this as someone who plays stealth classes.
I will agree with you on two points though. The first is that letting everyone sneak does reduce the advantage and the second is that stealth ganking has become the nature of the genre.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
You can keep restealthing in combat with NB, but it uses Mana, and you're not able to take half of someone's life every time you pop them with a Backstab like attack (GW2 and Thief)
In other words..
It shouldn't be like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkmR2hv8koY&feature=youtu.be
Stealth has its strengths and weaknesses like everything else, assuming you have played Wow and Rift you can probably see that the rogues spent the majority of the time being quite inferior to the mages and warriors in PVP. Having big burst opener usually means your consistent DPS will be weak, putting you at a disadvantage against high armor and/or healing classes. Playing a templar tank in the beta the NBs that tried to gank me were laughable, I could outheal their damage and kill them while staying around 100% hp. If you are too paranoid about them you could just avoid running alone in the middle of an open field, where you would probably get killed regardless.
I still feel stealth classes should fill the role of scouting mainly. They should also be at a severe disadvantage against real warrior classes and even against casters or such. I think it should require 3+ stealthers to take down a normal fighting class, they should represent what they are, honorless and cowardly, not anything skilled. Also they could potentially take down anyone 1v1 but it would require getting their target to stumble into several traps where they poison and weaken them to the point they could finish them off.
There is too much catering to the concept of ultimate assassin type who can dictate when, where, how a fight takes place and then does insane damage to pwn everyone, it is stupid really.
Exactly. This has really been my main issue. When a class has the unfair advantage of stealth, it should not also have insane burst. There should be some sort of balancing factor that keeps a single stealther from being able to autokill everyone but a heavy tank. This usually means that if you like to quest by yourself you are usually forced to play a stealther or a heavy tank that takes three hours to kill anything.
On the plus side, it seems like ESO has already addressed the problem to a large degree, both by separating PVP and leveling areas, and by giving everyone a stealth ability. I was just curious if they would still be 1v1 gods in Cyrodil.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
I frekking hate stealth (or at least: button press invisible) classes as well, no offense to those who play them. They're always either OP or nerfed into oblivion in various stages. That's because invisibility is a super powerful mechanic by itself.
Thankfully, it doesn't appear to be all that much of a problem in ESO. From what I could see, the stealth class could make themselves invisible for short periods of time.
It remains an incredibly useful escape tool however, and I see few ways of countering it. I just hope it doesn't take on the preportions of GW2's combat stealth, that was one of my most profound disappointments with that game.
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Please tell me where did you get those 50%? Please enlighten me! Did you just made it up to make things scarier?
Sure, stealth as an opener is an inherent advantage, just like the AoE spells that a sorcerer has in a keep siege makes for a huge advantage hitting multiple attackers. Kind of like the heavy armor and heals that a Templar has, and on, and on, and on. Most classes have something that make them "more" valuable in any given circumstance.
Stealth is not invisibility, which I think is a legitimate gripe people have had in the past, invisibility is a pretty big advantage, but here everyone has some degree of stealth. Like the video's show, you can find heavy armor wearing Dragon Knights stealthing around and getting kills just beacuse they stay out of the line of sight.
In reality, we're going to see it from all classes here, simply because of the mechanics, but the beauty of the system is that LOS will have to be maintained, and even the Nightblade will not be "invincible".
These are some pretty reasonable trade off's in my mind.
Buffed up Snipe from Sneak, Restealth & Repeat. Will take a huuge chunk.
Mage Light means you take regular damage and restealthing isn't going to happen.