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MMO golden age of sandboxes inc? Discuss.
itchmon
Member RarePosts: 1,999
So i could not help but notice that i have three MMOs installed on my PC at the moment. Eve (been there since 07) DFUW and EQNL Alpha. I never really considered myself a sandbox only player but there you are.
Also on my Kickstarter account (which makes me cry when i see how many games i've kickstarted) I see the repopulation, camelot, shroud of the avatar, and star citizen. And that's with me completely missing pathfinder and Aradune's game!
and i cannot wait to play them all!
one neat thing i have noticed as i put myself through the thought experiment of why i kinda went balls-first into sandboxes is that they are all so different. Something i wished to point out is that a sandbox MMO has more ways to define itself against its peers than a themepark would. I mean that it is a lot easier to describe a non sandbox MMO by saying "it's like wow but XYZ" than it is to describe a sandbox MMO by saying "it's like eve but XYZ".
Eve and DF are political MMOs in my book but, the scale and scope of the two games are different, as are the settings and the methods of advancement, plus they have different restrictions on open pvp and items has more permanence in eve (note i said "more permanence" not "permanence!")
EQNL is a builder's MMO, one in which i do not miss PVP one bit.
Camelot will be focused on realm building and have set factions, and be a little less freeform than the others.
Etc etc etc. I don't feel any "overlap" in my three games the way i would if, for example, i played wow and aion. (both of which incidentally i think are good games). I think that each game i mentioned in my list of sandboxes can find its own place in the gaming universe without really needing to snipe players from one another. I can't see myself ever saying "i'm going to give up eve for EQNL"... though considering the vast number of games on the horizon i guess i'll have to cut a few...
Anyone else have a thought or idea on why so many sandboxes are on the horizon? Is it because crowd funding appeals somehow to sandbox folks? Something else? Am I alone in my optimism for the Genre thanks to the impending avalanche of more freeform games?
Da Skull
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Comments
I think Minecraft probably has had a big impact on the desire and willingness of dev shops to try to deliver a real sandbox system. Combined with the production cost and high probability of failure associated with building a themepark MMO that can compete with WoW.
True sandboxes are desirable (for publishers) because they encourage users to build the 'content' for each other. They will probably do a better job of opening up the market space where WoW simply dominated it for so long.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
Sandboxes, as defined by people on these forums, will never exist.
Actually Sandboxes never really existed, people just thought they did. UO wasn't a sandbox, SWG wasn't, even the "great" EVE isn't.
Minecraft is a sandbox. It has been the only game to date that has the true requirements of a sandbox.
Until what deems a sandbox is clearly defined there will never be a sandbox mmo.
Sandboxes are niche games, always have been and always will be. Theme parks appeal the masses, like WoW does for example, and masses don't want sandboxes, they want cheap shallow entertainment.
People seem to miss the fact that hard core gamers are a minority in gaming world now. It is simple, over one billion people have access to computers now, a minority are gamers.
I love sandboxes, and those are the only games I play. Theme parks should not be made if I was to be asked, but I'm not. So that is fine.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
When people say 'sandbox MMO' they are simply saying the game is centered around, focused or heavily leaning toward that type of content.
One doesn't have to first create the universe to bake a cake from scratch.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I believe this image comes to mind on what you are saying.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Except I wouldn't call that scale accurate at all. Levels, classes and races are simply RPG elements that we have seen since the original Dungeons & Dragons and has nothing to do with themepark or sandbox.
Until I see a single sandbox that is worth a damn, I'm not remotely ready to herald the golden age of sandboxes. Eve is a great game, but it's extremely niche. I've yet to find a single well-made sandbox game in a fantasy or Sci-Fi setting. I do have high hopes for The Repopulation, and I plan on giving that game a serious look when it comes out. But the current sandbox titles to choose from (Wurm Online, DFUW,and Mortal Online) are a complete mess, IMO.
Corwdfunding appeals to indie devs, and indie devs tend to cater to niche crowds. The niche in question is the sandbox niche.
No. I think it is your wishful thinking that has made you believe there's a golden age coming.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah I think over the next few years we will start to see soem different mmorpgs coming out and its about time really... Basically since wow came out all AAA mmorpgs have basically been the same thing with very little innovation..
Minecraft has shown that sandbox type games are not niche at all... dont get me wrong there are types of sandbox games that of course will be and those are the ones i enjoy the most.. I am talking about games with full loot open world pvp
I am happy for those to be niche but still there are a good few upcoming mmorpgs over the next few years that will have that. The main one I am looking forward to this year is The Repopulation, this will cater for people who enjoy full loot pvp and ones that dont..
The big player is of course SOE with EQ:N and landmark this is already looking like its going to be very popular and not niche at all.
Yeah all in all I think the next 10 years for MMORPGs are going to be some of the best, finally moving away from the countless themepark clones, people want something different and the devs are realising this even the AAA ones..
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Two is technology in regards to multiplayer and massively multiplayer games. The phasing technology necessary for one player to make dramatic changes to the world without upsetting the game play of other players has existed for awhile, but implementations were not too common. WoW Cataclysm made heavy use of it and Shroud of the Avatar makes heavy use of it as a way for players to play their way. Elder Scrolls Online is going to make use of it as well, in more localized areas. Phasing technology as used in these games does not necessaril promote group play, but it certainly allows many people to make dramatic changes in the world without messing with each other. Another technology that's re-emerged is Voxels. Rather, it's the efficient use of voxels. Developers won't need 10gb/s network connections for each player connected to their servers if their game uses voxels. It allows for sandbox style destruction and construction in a world in an efficient way.
Three? I don't have a three. Player interest and technology are all that's needed for something to start becoming prevalent. Maybe three would be that with examples of sandbox game play existing in the world, developers' first thoughts won't be how difficult it is to implement such things, but how neat it would be to implement such things. I don't really know how reluctant they were before, so I don't know if that is something that has changed.
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I think what we are headed towards is more of a post sandbox/themepark era. There are elements of traditional theme park games that are just as popular now as they ever were, and which show up in those blockbuster selling games. Story telling is one of them. I don't think traditional anything is going to come back around so much as elements of the past are going to get pushed into the future.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Agreed, but the presence of the term 'sandpark' (let alone the arbitrary scale of 10-0) makes it rather clear it was designed by someone who really doesn't understand the topic at all, so calling it simply inaccurate is being rather generous.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is the most common reason why we can't get a good definition of a Sandbox Game.People can't separate the Game elements from the Sandbox Elements and just label game mechanics they like as sandbox and those they don't themepark.
We are already in a golden age .. think about all the good games we have .. D3, Dishonored, Bioshock, Dead Space ....
just not a golden age of sandbox.
Not sure if this will be the "golden age" but it will be a huge improvement over the past 8 years...the dark ages.
Im currently enjoying dfuw. Not for the pvp (as I dont really like pvp) but because it feels like a virtual world with risk vs reward.
I never said it wasnt.
Thats not what the scale is. The scsle is pointing out that no game is full sandbox or themepark. Its a scale with two extremes. Sandpark as we call it is simply the middle of the two extremes. Most games linger around the middle, either closer to the themepark side or closer to the sandbox side.
Elements like levels for zones, classes, and race pvp are forms of restrictions. Those push the game towards the themepark side. Has nothing to do with what any of us like. Its the reality that Themepark is considered developer controlled/restriction and Sandbox is more player controlled.
But rarely is a game pure sandbox. Thats why its a scale. Hooe that makes sense.
At the core, all games start off as sandbox. But developers add restrictions to the sandbox which on the scale would move it towards the thenepark/sandpark side of the scale.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
No you are just no understanding or choosing not to. Its on a scale from 0-10 because all games start off as sandboxes.
Game engine is the 0 for all games. Thats totally sandbox. But most games dont give access to that. Hince the restrictions by developers.
Minecraft is a good example of what i mean. Minecraft could be a 0 or 1 on the scale. And notice how people have taken Minecraft's engine and made unique games from it with their own rules and regulations built on top of it.
As more of those rules get added and more restrixtions get added the game becomes more and more themepark,
But Minecraft at its core is more Sandbox.
The same thinf apply to all MMO games. They all at the core are Sandboxes. But the developer's rules and regulations built on top of them makes them themeparks.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
You are working on the false premise that sandbox means absence of gameplay, content and rules.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
This ...
I don't play games to create anything, i do that for entertainment. Don't give me a video camera, give me The Avengers.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I try not to jump on the themepark/sandbox wagon's and just look at the games for what they are offering so anything new that is better than what we had before is great in my book. Call it the golden age if you want but I would call it more of a baby age since its still very new and technology/programming is still trying to catch up with what players want. We see this from how fast games are ran through and passed over to get to the next best thing.
When I first played EQ it was fun and new for a bit, but it only lasted so long before I was craving for a bigger world with less restrictions, better graphics, more people, more choices and more of pretty much everything else lol. I'm sure I wasn't the only one, yeah some people were happy with it but I wanted more and my imagination would go wild with endless possibilities.
DAoC came out and I thought it was an awesome step in the right direction of where I thought the genre was going.
Reality (WoW) struck not long after that, which was a good game when it first came out but I was unhappy that the game world seemed smaller. They also stream lined the classes to only a few and also gave less options for races. I thought, hey they will add more later since the game was still young but it had some potential. A few years later still playing it the game was changing into something I was not really enjoying anymore, I started to think that maybe something new was going to come out to get back to where I thought it was going initially but I didn't really see anything back then that looked interesting so I quite playing mmo games for a few years after that.
Anyway, still waiting for the huge open worlds with more choices and more of everything to come out. It may be unrealistic right now or even for the future, but hopefully they get there someday. Recently though it seems the genre is shifting finally maybe back into the direction that I though it would go way back when
but I still wouldn't call it the golden age yet.
"We" who? Is that the royal we?
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
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