PvE versus PvP crowd

Lord.Bachus · February 2014

With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

CazNeerg · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

Their setup has a nice hard divide between PvE and PvP. And the way the PvP is set up, if enough people keep participating, it really doesn't have post release needs, because the players provide the content. And the PvP players won't "screw up" the PvE game, or vice versa, because they are segregated into separate zones.

hg2012 · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

PvE'ers are casuals?? lol

I bet you've never raided in your life

Man_of_Leisure · February 2014

As someone who played dark age of camelot for over 10 years these discussions with anti-pvpers are completely foreign to me. Everyone in DAOC pvps, and it has a very diverse demographic. It's not unccomon for parents to play with their kids, or to join a group and find out that that you have 60 or 70 year old in your battle group. There's trash talking of course, but you can't talk to your enemy , so it's more like 'go team'. or what we call 'realm pride'

PVP does not have to be the macho e-peenery that people here seem to think it is. If everyone pvps then no one has that hot-shot attitude.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that this game does not have to be like those crap experiences that people have seem to have had in the past. The people that you're going to be exploring with, and crafting for are going to be the same people fighting for your faction in cyrodil. And what seperates this from other games where pvp is an after thought is that there benefits for everyone when your faction 'wins' i.e. entry to the capital city. PVP will be more than bragging about pwning noobs.

Lord.Bachus · February 2014

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

Their setup has a nice hard divide between PvE and PvP. And the way the PvP is set up, if enough people keep participating, it really doesn't have post release needs, because the players provide the content. And the PvP players won't "screw up" the PvE game, or vice versa, because they are segregated into separate zones.

Yes their setup has divided the game in 2....

but the skilltrees are the same, and they will be ballanced for PvP ... So it will feel unjust to the pve crowd

and most shards are aquired trough PvE, that will be a major complaint from PvPers

Originally posted by hg2012

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

PvE'ers are casuals?? lol

I bet you've never raided in your life

I have raided enough, and recognise the hardcore PvE crowd..... But ask yourself, will these hardcore PvE players feel at home is the story based non endgame PvE of TESO... I think this is not their cup of PvE, and if they even decide to play this game most of them will leave dissapointed...or find a new home at the PvP part of things

SpottyGekko · February 2014

There will be plenty of friction between the "PVE" and "PVP" camps, always is in any game where both playstyles are popular.

In ESO, most skills and abilities are shared between PVE and PVP. A nerf to a skill or weapon because it's "OP" in one sphere will cause unhappiness in another sphere, unless the skills and abilities are seperated between PVP and PVE.

We already know that there's a significant advantage to PVP'ing as a L50 character, because the limits of the "up-leveling" process are removed. If that isn't adjusted before launch, there will be a huge pressure to reach L50 as fast as possible for anyone wanting to spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil.

"Pure" PVP'ers will also complain that they are forced to complete PVE content for the vitally important skillpoints. You can level all the way to L50 doing PVP only, but you'll be severely gimped without the skillpoints from the PVE activities.

"Pure" PVE'ers will complain about being forced to expose themselves to PVP if they want to access any content in the massive Cyrodiil zone. No, they will not "learn to defend themselves", they will complain about a lack of PVE content and leave the game.

There will be plenty of friction

Panthien · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

Im hoping they will. Im hoping they will add more then just some cassual stuff for pve, but only time can tell. Pvp wise they'll have to add continues content as well for both cassual as well as hardcore players.

Overall I have a good feeling about this one, both pvp and pve wise. One way or another Ill get my money's worth and will be playing it for a while.

RexKushman · February 2014

I have raided enough, and recognise the hardcore PvE crowd..... But ask yourself, will these hardcore PvE players feel at home is the story based non endgame PvE of TESO... I think this is not their cup of PvE, and if they even decide to play this game most of them will leave dissapointed...or find a new home at the PvP part of things

Ignorance is bliss eh.... wait till the info about Adventure Zones is revealed..

here's a hint... 24 man raid groups

Eighteen16 · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

[mod edit]Hardcore PVP players are an absolute minority in MMOs, in this game they will have to be babysitting the masses of solo heroes who think they are the greatest assest to RvR. PVE builds a much stronger community of people who actually enjoy working together to achieve a goal.

This game minimizes the impact of individuals in PVP, which should make it a better experience for both PVP and PVE groups.

JudgeUK · February 2014

"We already know that there's a significant advantage to PVP'ing as a L50 character, because the limits of the "up-leveling" process are removed. If that isn't adjusted before launch, there will be a huge pressure to reach L50 as fast as possible for anyone wanting to spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil".

Yes that sounds about right, but ironically goes against one of the games intentions to have players going off to explore and taking them time. Oh well. people will always play how they want no matter what the intentions of the developers.

MagikarpsGhost · February 2014

Originally posted by Eighteen16
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

PVP is usually full of whining quitters and failures who spend most of their time making up reasons for why they are getting owned. Hardcore PVP players are an absolute minority in MMOs, in this game they will have to be babysitting the masses of solo heroes who think they are the greatest assest to RvR. PVE builds a much stronger community of people who actually enjoy working together to achieve a goal.

This game minimizes the impact of individuals in PVP, which should make it a better experience for both PVP and PVE groups.

i must agree here. i know some hardcore pvpers and tbh they are actually nice. but then you get those "pvpers" who cry about EVERYCLASS thats not them being op...GW2 is a great example thief has been nerfed 4 times going on 5 because ppl cry...its to the point pve they are one of the most dificult classes to use now due to reduced HP and armor. and next our crit dmg

Lord.Bachus · February 2014

Originally posted by jircris
Originally posted by Eighteen16
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game.

PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking

PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs

Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

PVP is usually full of whining quitters and failures who spend most of their time making up reasons for why they are getting owned. Hardcore PVP players are an absolute minority in MMOs, in this game they will have to be babysitting the masses of solo heroes who think they are the greatest assest to RvR. PVE builds a much stronger community of people who actually enjoy working together to achieve a goal.

This game minimizes the impact of individuals in PVP, which should make it a better experience for both PVP and PVE groups.

i must agree here. i know some hardcore pvpers and tbh they are actually nice. but then you get those "pvpers" who cry about EVERYCLASS thats not them being op...GW2 is a great example thief has been nerfed 4 times going on 5 because ppl cry...its to the point pve they are one of the most dificult classes to use now due to reduced HP and armor. and next our crit dmg

Thats because of their stealth mechanics... Most developers have no clue how to ballance this.... But then , in GW2 my Guardian never lost a 1 on 1 against a thief... Sadly often thieves managed to escape...

i think giving everyone stealth in ESO is a smart move.... Espescially the way it works.....i just loved the scouting missions solo on my templar

hg2012 · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I have raided enough, and recognise the hardcore PvE crowd..... But ask yourself, will these hardcore PvE players feel at home is the story based non endgame PvE of TESO... I think this is not their cup of PvE, and if they even decide to play this game most of them will leave dissapointed...or find a new home at the PvP part of things

That depends though if the PvE content gives you a worthwhile sense of progression as well as enough coordinated group action to make each achievement worthwhile rather than just a mindless zerg n' loot. This is why the cookie cutter WoW template MMO's are successful, however they do suffer the problem of being too hardcore at times by funnelling PvE progression into raiding only which gives the PvE community a "raid or else" ultimatum. GW2 tried to change that by not only having no actual raids but they also removed the whole point of progression by making gear absolutely worthless, that was their biggest mistake IMO because they literally cut out the sole purpose of advancement in not only an MMO but any RPG. That's the main thing TESO has got to avoid, there's got to be proper worthwhile gear progression where you down a boss to get enough gear/mats to craft to down harder ones and so on. If there's that sense of progression with PvE content and any other content like PvP doesn't make it easier to achieve those aims PvE can be successful even if it doesn't have raiding as an only means to an end.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

"Pure" PVE'ers will complain about being forced to expose themselves to PVP if they want to access any content in the massive Cyrodiil zone. No, they will not "learn to defend themselves", they will complain about a lack of PVE content and leave the game.

This sort of reminds me something swtor done recently, they put better relics than that drop in SM and even most HM content bar the two newer ops on the PvP vendor. Of course the PvE camp complain but it's nothing compared to the noise from the PvP camp about it who don't want to play with people who have literally zero PvP gear. But the devs continue to implement this carrot on a stick approach without understanding the mindsets and motives of both camps, instead of uniting them it divides them more.

However with your example there's nothing wrong with having PvE objectives in a PvP zone, I don't consider that a carrot on a stick approach but more like this games equivalent of playing on a PvP server or maybe a bit like entering low/null sec space in eve. As long as entering the zone is entirely optional towards progression and the risks are clear, there's nothing for carebears to cry about IMO.

DrDwarf · February 2014

The only way to keep pvp players happy is to let us hunt pve players down where they think they are safe to role play a fighter in a war without any risk of being attacked by something with a human operating it.

Try joining a real army and ask them for a button you can press when you want to be in a war and one when you don't.

Phry · February 2014

Originally posted by DrDwarf
The only way to keep pvp players happy is to let us hunt pve players down where they think they are safe to role play a fighter in a war without any risk of being attacked by something with a human operating it.

Try joining a real army and ask them for a button you can press when you want to be in a war and one when you don't.

Unfortunately no MMO developer would be willing to suicide their game by allowing that, fun though it might be. End of the day, the majority of players are PVE orientated, they might engage in PvP a bit, but usually on a very casual basis, and their the ones that are going to be providing the bulk of the games subscriptions.

just a quick note, when you use the 'real army' excuse, it comes up short, 'real armies' only win when they don't have to fight.

Slapshot1188 · February 2014

Just wait until they open up the Imperial City as some sort of Darkness Falls...

Technohic · February 2014

I actually think their key feature that will set them apart from the other theme parks will be Cyrodiil. Sure. GW2 has a RvR but its not as huge or well done, nor does it encompass so much in a single zone. They would be a fool to not make this their identity or to do anything to take away from that. I realize PvPers may be a minority, but that minority might be a niche that is out there for the taking while there are tons of games heavy on the top level PvE content to compete with.

That said; both sides of this can have extreme personalities where they are so far to one side, that they act like it's the end of the world to even think about participating in the other. We need more people to get over it and just realize you still are fighting an enemy and it really doesn't matter if one is controlled by someone behind the keyboard or not. You should be playing to have fun without some sort of mental issue where that bothers you when it is still pixel on pixel fighting. Only then will we have a fully integrated community and there is so much that can be done with having cool PvE content injected when possible, while having the player created and self sustaining content of PvP in between and even integrated.

I also will say as far as balancing issues go, with PvP on a large scale here, where you should have relatively unlimited numbers facing each other; there should be no balancing based on 1 vs 1 so balancing can be quite a bit looser as to not wreck PvE for people. Thats another reason I do not ever want to see any warzone or arenas. That brings about more balance whining; especially if it gets competetive for ratings. Screw that. Keep it about an actual war.

baphamet · February 2014

Originally posted by hg2012
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus With some games it seems PvE and PvE attract totally different players. I personally think this game might be an example of such a game. PvP, pulls in a hardcore PvP crowd thats very co petitive in their way of thinking PvE, puls casuall players interested in lore, story and exploration, that mostly loved the leveling game in other MMOs Obviously both these groups have very different post release needs, i am wondering if Bethesda can keep both these groups hapy, because to these players it often feels like their wishes are mutual exclusive..

PvE'ers are casuals?? lol

I bet you've never raided in your life

lol no shit, i think it's easier to be a casual pvp'er. also, a lot of people like to do both.

what i like about this game is there isn't going to be hardcore raiding (hopefully)

i wasted far too much time in EQ and vanilla wow with that crap.

gervaise1 · February 2014

The two groups overlap of course but I think Zenimax's challenges are:

attract the PvP players in the first place;
deal with issues raised by the PvP crowd;
deal with the issues caused by people leaving.
attract people back to the game post WoD

1. May be nothing specific that Zenimax can do about this; very serious PvP competition launches in March - and Titanfall plays at least as well (many say better) on PC.

2. PvP players can be pretty demanding. Some will be happy with "DAoC style" PvP. The rest can be demanding e.g. debate caused by Blizzard's WoD PvP proposal. The debate was feisty! Do Zenimax plan to engage or stick with "DAoC style"?

3. Lots of people who buy ESO will leave in the first 6 months. PvP players because they don't like the PvP; PvE players because they get bored. Yes I know that ESO is a huge game but at some stage people want a change! The mega-server tech means no server mergers but there will be huge impacts on "home campaigns". Hopefully Zenimax have a plan..

4. SoE once reported that in EQ churn was over 50%! Many look at WoW see 7.8M subs and believe that all a new game has to do is attract a chunk of them. And new games can! If WoW has only a 10% churn that is 800k players a month leaving - and 800k new / returning players. Coming back to WoW from the new game after however long.

Initially ESO won't have any returning players. Just new people followed by people leaving. I believe that they should plan for a big PvE DLC drop some months after WoD. They could make it free to people who have subbed for 6 months say or to those who return and take out a 6 month sub. A plan - basically - to generate some returning subscribers.

Deddmeat · February 2014

Plenty of people who PvE should be fine with PvP even if that just means they die ;-)

UO (the proper UO, before EQ screwed it over) sorry but when EQ came out UO then decided to downgrade to PvE .. that killed the fun.

EVE your safe if your docked, leave the station and your a target for anyone who wants to suicide gank you and there are enough nutjobs in the game for that lol

Any FPS on the PC or Console

AD&D yes some say it's PvE, I disagree as the DM is who your really fighting against and if anything like the one who ran the games we had for (well it went through enough rule revisions lets say) he was an evil, sadistic, cheating, tight fisted bstard who should be strung up by his balls and covered in honey over an ants nest.

But kind hearted, generous to a fault (just incse he's reading this) and fair with character creation.

I haven't PvP in awhile unless you count CoD & Titanfall but couldn't care about dying so great as a decoy lol

Hengist · February 2014

Originally posted by Eighteen16
Hardcore PVP players are an absolute minority in MMOs, in this game they will have to be babysitting the masses of solo heroes who think they are the greatest assest to RvR. PVE builds a much stronger community of people who actually enjoy working together to achieve a goal.

I'm sorry you've never played an MMO that was designed with PvP as a focus rather than an afterthought. A game like DAoC had an amazing community of people working together towards RvR goals.

Must be post-WoW Syndrome....

Bad.dog · February 2014

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by hg2012

lol no shit, i think it's easier to be a casual pvp'er. also, a lot of people like to do both.

what i like about this game is there isn't going to be hardcore raiding (hopefully)

i wasted far too much time in EQ and vanilla wow with that crap.

I agree 100% with you on this call ......I believe many folks playing mmo's like a good mix of pvp and pve , hardcore raiding and harcore pvp are the vocal minority that like to throw around catch words like casual to describe anyone that isn't committed to their brand of play .

free2play · February 2014

Consider as well, a big part of PvP is the forum war and the PvP people will win that one most of the time just because the PvE people don't show up for the battle.

Katilla · February 2014

I only hate the PVP crowd because for some reason PVP seems to bring out the worst in people...

Drakynn · February 2014

I would assume that most gamers are like me.I like both PvE and PvP and only require that either is worth my time and fun to do.

The Whole PvP v PvE thing is just between two very vocal minorities with myopic views of what a MMORPG should be.

But that is a biased assumption

Bad.dog · February 2014

I think the real conflict will be caused by Role Player's ,,,what true psychotic hard-core pvper likes to get beaten by a guy letting on he's a girl ,who pulls the old /sit chair and play's a musical instrument while singing a ballad

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