Originally posted by keithian This is all so silly to me. ESO will be the better game for its target audience Wildstar will be the better game for its target audience. They do NOT have the same target audience regardless of the fact that there will be some cross over. Plus ESO doesn't need to compete with Wildstar on consoles. In fact I don't think that Wildstar is even on a Mac, right? So the article really only applies to one single platform lol...they forgot to mention that.
well stated
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!
SO I as finally able to scroll to the bottom and all I've seen on this topic is. "No way Wildstar is better" or "No way ESO is better'
Now I was able to beta test ESO and the bottom line was I could not get into it. It looked and sounded like an Elder Scrolls game, but I didn't feel like one. Now does this mean it won't be a successful mmo? No I think it will do just fine.
Yet it lacked to many things to make it feel like Elder Scrolls, not to mention when I notice you can't swim under the water...I am sorry that is just lazy game design.
I can't comment on wildstar - I will most likely play either ESO or Wildstar based on what my friends get.
A MMO is only really as fun based on who you play with...after all that is what an MMO is about....................right?
SO I as finally able to scroll to the bottom and all I've seen on this topic is. "No way Wildstar is better" or "No way ESO is better'
Now I was able to beta test ESO and the bottom line was I could not get into it. It looked and sounded like an Elder Scrolls game, but I didn't feel like one. Now does this mean it won't be a successful mmo? No I think it will do just fine.
Yet it lacked to many things to make it feel like Elder Scrolls, not to mention when I notice you can't swim under the water...I am sorry that is just lazy game design.
I can't comment on wildstar - I will most likely play either ESO or Wildstar based on what my friends get.
A MMO is only really as fun based on who you play with...after all that is what an MMO is about....................right?
I don't choose a game based on what my friends play. I choose a game based on what I want to play and make friends for that game if I don't already have friends playing the game.
I didn't have the opportunity to beta test Wildstar, but I did test ESO and I got really into it. I'm excited by the community ESO will have.
I have played on both games extensively and ESO is infinitely better to me.
This is all imho but: exploration is better and feels more rewarding, pvp is on another level entirely, better graphics, far more atmospheric and immersive, better class progression, better combat, infinitely better quests, voice acting, better crafting, better pacing, better IP, the list really just goes on.
I found Wildstar to be mind-numbingly dull when questing. Click on generic NPC, skip boring quest text, look at quest tracker to see which mobs to go and kill or which items to click on etc, rinse and repeat, for hours and hours. Horrendous.
With ESO on the other hand I was really immersed in the quests and their stories. Many characters were interesting with satisfying dialog that was presented to me in an immersive fashion (VO.) The ambient dialog and sounds coming from NPCs + surroundings as I was running around looking for quests etc really helped to fortify the experience; I felt like I was playing an mmoRPG as opposed to just mindlessly grinding through one rubbish, half-arsed quest at a time, solely to race to level cap and start the true game.
ESO just felt far less artificial to me. The world felt more alive and real, and the game’s systems were hidden behind a far more convincing veil, whereas in Wildstar all I could see were the systems as opposed to the world and the characters; an NPC is just another tedious task as opposed to a character, a quest a chore as opposed to a story, a zone being one more bland place to grind through as opposed to a new and mysterious place to explore and advance my character and story in.
Can’t wait for ESO. I may pick up Wildstar post launch some point but for me it is far too generic and far too similar to traditional MMOs like WoW, which I am rather bored of as I see right through them these days...
I have played both games and Wildstar is the one that has stood out for me. Everyone says that ESO gets better the longer you play but I've not managed to reach that point with it. I think wildstar will have the broader appeal whilst ESO will have repescted but niche appeal.
so in current MMO terms. Wildstar is WOW & ESO is EQ2
Its funny, I never really thought of it that way, but I think you are 100% accurate on that. Wildstar does seem to cater to a much broader general audience, with more of a focus on casual gaming, and trying to offer alittle bit to everyone like WoW did. While ESO is focusing on a much smaller focused group, giving the players more challenging content and gameplay instead of trying to appeal to everyone like EQ2.
I had chosen EQ2 back in 2004 over WoW, and stuck with it for 8 years. I never once regretted that decision, even when WoW became the go-to game with millions of players, I was happy with a smaller more mature playerbase who appreciated being challenged. EQ2 vs WoW was a quality over quantity example, and its quite possible ESO vs Wildstar will end up very much the same way.
I agree, they both are catering to a different audience. Personally I like ESO more, because it offers a more challenging gameplay and because of the AvAvA. I can understand people liking wildstar too though, but to me it feels too much like ye olde WoW.
If you really care about RPG you play solo RPGs. In MMORPGs other players break your immersion constantly. Solo RPGs tell a better story and immerse you in the world far better than any MMORPG can simply because they don't have to worry about other players screwing things up for you. No matter how hard you try to make a solo RPG into an MMORPG you will never be able to do it perfectly because of the other player factor. ESO is putting their eggs in two baskets, one basket is the RPG basket and that basket is full of holes, and the other basket is avava basket.
Which game is better is a tricky question because they are two very different games focusing on 2 very different markets. ESO has a much narrower focus. If they manage to make the avava fans happy they will do fine. I don't however feel they will be able to truely satisfy the TES fans, as too much gets sacrificed in the conversion to multiplayer. As a huge TES fan, honestly if I want to solo RPG I can fill that urge better with a solo game than an MMORPG.
Wildstar has a much broader focus and is more of a traditional MMORPG. It is not going to grab the players who want a deep story based RPG on the level of solo games. However people who like the traditional formula looking for a change of pace will feel comfortable here and still have tons of new toys to keep them busy.
When it comes to RP, honestly I would give the edge to Wildstar. While ESO gives you a lot of lore, Wildstar does that but more in the background and also has a crap ton of customization plus the housing is an RPers dream come true.
RP and RPG refer to two different things. RPG refers to a type of game, while RP refers to a type of activity. I'm not going to be able to take RP seriously in any game until we get a game that actually responds dynamically to player actions rather than relying on static content, because until then we are still going to be playing games where we are all playing the exact same character (from a narrative standpoint) at the same time. If you have to ignore the "reality" of what is going on in a game in order to RP with other people, it's a game that isn't set up for multiplayer RP.
As for your suggestion about going with single player RPGs, in principle you are correct, but the reality is that since the success of WoW, a lot of development dollars that would have gone to single player RPGs now go to MMORPGs instead, with the result being that there are far fewer offline RPGs, especially high budget ones, as the developers who are willing to embrace a large budget in recent years tend to decide to tack MMO onto the game in order to milk the extra revenue streams. That is part of why we are seeing fewer quality offline RPGs developed, but there are also reasons for players to be happy about the switch even if they are primarily RPG fans. MMORPGs tend to have a *lot* more content than single player games do, much of which would not be present in the games if the same base concept had been developed as a single player title.
Look at TOR, for example. It's entirely likely that if they had taken the same base story and done KotOR 3 instead, we would have gotten the Republic side Jedi Knight experience, with slight alteration to allow the Dark Side ending version to be a little darker. No playable Imp side at all, and no other seven classes with their respective companions. KotOR 4 would have been another Jedi Knight story, set further down the timeline, etc. etc.
With ESO specifically, how heavy the instancing is tends to reduce (and in many cases outright eliminate) the "other players" problem. It does such a good job of it that people who are trying to group for content designed to be soloed are complaining because the world keeps shuffling them into different instances in many areas. As far as (non-housing) customization goes, I have to give the edge to ESO. The range of different looks for any given piece of armor depending on racial style and quality level is very impressive if you experiment much with the crafting. And every class has multiple viable builds, across multiple armor types. Wildstar appears to be a much more rigid game when it comes to, well, pretty much everything. Far less player freedom.
Speaking as a huge Daggerfall/Morrowind fan, ESO is the first Elder Scrolls game I have been happy with in many years.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I agree with pretty much everything here. The funny thing about these two games for me is that when it comes right down to it, its not about what features one has, and whats lacking from the games. It was about what I could get into personally and find enjoyment in.
Both of these games have completely flipped in my experience. ESO at the start months ago, I wasnt interested in at all. The game seemed to lack any features, as was pointed out here, you have basically Dungeons and Cyrodiil. Thats it. Wildstar on the other hand, has all these different offerings, and I was super excited early on to see a game try to offer something for everyone, whether you were a small group or a large, whether you liked PVE or PVP.
But then I played both. Since playing in both betas, I have done a full 180 on each. Wildstar has completely turned me off, so much so that I have been forced to find a different guild, since my original only plans to play Wildstar. All those features sounded good on paper, and individually they are fun, but they never come together into a cohesive game. Like was pointed out in the article, it just feels like a whole lot of fragmented systems. ESO on the other hand, has alot of story and lore, and the questing really brings the whole game together. Even moving from PVE to PVP in Cyrodiil, you still feel like its all connected.
I have never been one to care about graphics, and I couldnt really care less that Wildstar is cartoony, and ESO is more realistic or what I like to call "dirty realism". But the sci-fi setting of Wildstar really turned me off much more than I expected it to. Im a huge sci-fi fan (love both Star Wars and Star Trek), but for some reason that just doesnt seem to apply to games. I thought it would be fine, but turns out, the fantasy setting of ESO (dragons and magic) really is what Im looking for.
In the end, instead of pre-ordering Wildstar and playing with the other 200+ something members of my guild, I have pre-ordered ESO and now Im looking for a new home. Someplace with other like minded players, who despite what "should" be a better game in Wildstar, we find that ESO is just more "us".
If you really care about RPG you play solo RPGs. In MMORPGs other players break your immersion constantly. Solo RPGs tell a better story and immerse you in the world far better than any MMORPG can simply because they don't have to worry about other players screwing things up for you. No matter how hard you try to make a solo RPG into an MMORPG you will never be able to do it perfectly because of the other player factor. ESO is putting their eggs in two baskets, one basket is the RPG basket and that basket is full of holes, and the other basket is avava basket.
Which game is better is a tricky question because they are two very different games focusing on 2 very different markets. ESO has a much narrower focus. If they manage to make the avava fans happy they will do fine. I don't however feel they will be able to truely satisfy the TES fans, as too much gets sacrificed in the conversion to multiplayer. As a huge TES fan, honestly if I want to solo RPG I can fill that urge better with a solo game than an MMORPG.
Wildstar has a much broader focus and is more of a traditional MMORPG. It is not going to grab the players who want a deep story based RPG on the level of solo games. However people who like the traditional formula looking for a change of pace will feel comfortable here and still have tons of new toys to keep them busy.
When it comes to RP, honestly I would give the edge to Wildstar. While ESO gives you a lot of lore, Wildstar does that but more in the background and also has a crap ton of customization plus the housing is an RPers dream come true.
RP and RPG refer to two different things. RPG refers to a type of game, while RP refers to a type of activity. I'm not going to be able to take RP seriously in any game until we get a game that actually responds dynamically to player actions rather than relying on static content, because until then we are still going to be playing games where we are all playing the exact same character (from a narrative standpoint) at the same time. If you have to ignore the "reality" of what is going on in a game in order to RP with other people, it's a game that isn't set up for multiplayer RP.
As for your suggestion about going with single player RPGs, in principle you are correct, but the reality is that since the success of WoW, a lot of development dollars that would have gone to single player RPGs now go to MMORPGs instead, with the result being that there are far fewer offline RPGs, especially high budget ones, as the developers who are willing to embrace a large budget in recent years tend to decide to tack MMO onto the game in order to milk the extra revenue streams. That is part of why we are seeing fewer quality offline RPGs developed, but there are also reasons for players to be happy about the switch even if they are primarily RPG fans. MMORPGs tend to have a *lot* more content than single player games do, much of which would not be present in the games if the same base concept had been developed as a single player title.
Look at TOR, for example. It's entirely likely that if they had taken the same base story and done KotOR 3 instead, we would have gotten the Republic side Jedi Knight experience, with slight alteration to allow the Dark Side ending version to be a little darker. No playable Imp side at all, and no other seven classes with their respective companions. KotOR 4 would have been another Jedi Knight story, set further down the timeline, etc. etc.
With ESO specifically, how heavy the instancing is tends to reduce (and in many cases outright eliminate) the "other players" problem. It does such a good job of it that people who are trying to group for content designed to be soloed are complaining because the world keeps shuffling them into different instances in many areas. As far as (non-housing) customization goes, I have to give the edge to ESO. The range of different looks for any given piece of armor depending on racial style and quality level is very impressive if you experiment much with the crafting. And every class has multiple viable builds, across multiple armor types. Wildstar appears to be a much more rigid game when it comes to, well, pretty much everything. Far less player freedom.
Speaking as a huge Daggerfall/Morrowind fan, ESO is the first Elder Scrolls game I have been happy with in many years.
I agree RP and RPG are two different things and that is why I addressed them separately.
I also think your point about no recent big budget RPGs has merit. That said a single player RPG is not going to keep people subbed for very long. You play the content and move on, probably looking at 1-3 months for this kind of player. PvP is the one area where the game really has a shot of keeping players, but with the word being so fragmented and PvP being so limited PvP will have to stand on the quality of avava alone.
I haven't played ESO yet, but I am sure I will grab it when it releases if only to play the RPG side of things(if reviews are good). So I can't really compare it to previous TES games. All of the previous TES games had different strengths and weaknesses, while I loved Daggerfall when it was out it certainly wasn't a perfect game. Skyrim while a far more polished experience sacrifices a lot of the freedom. It should be interesting to see where ESO falls.
ESO is an MMORPG for people who want an RPG, Wildstar is an MMORPG for people who want an MMO. 2 very different markets. Even if talking about PvP the 2 games have very different takes on PvP and will likely appeal to different people.
As far as the RP side of things go, in Wildstar you can customize damn near anything and everything. My understanding is that ESO doesn't have any player created spaces and customization is limited to crafting. RPers like other players are not all the same, I think lore may be more important to some, I think having player created spaces is a huge factor to RP however and instead of giving players a static world to RP it allows them to build spaces, and stories all their own to RP in.
ESO is an MMORPG for people who want an RPG, Wildstar is an MMORPG for people who want an MMO. 2 very different markets. Even if talking about PvP the 2 games have very different takes on PvP and will likely appeal to different people.
I can agree fully with your characterization here, in terms of the PvE. In terms of the PvP, ESO is just as much for people who want an MMO as Wildstar is, it is just (as you say) providing very different approaches to PvP. With the ESO type (narratively appropriate warfare) being the kind which fits better with a game that cares about the RPG side of things, while Wildstar gives more PvP as e-sport.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I will be playing both. I like the realism and the old school feel of ESO but I also enjoy the more playful feel of Wildstar. Will see which one holds my attention for more than a month. To me, that's the key. I really wish they had brought up the crafting systems in their article.
Comments
well stated
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!
SO I as finally able to scroll to the bottom and all I've seen on this topic is. "No way Wildstar is better" or "No way ESO is better'
Now I was able to beta test ESO and the bottom line was I could not get into it. It looked and sounded like an Elder Scrolls game, but I didn't feel like one. Now does this mean it won't be a successful mmo? No I think it will do just fine.
Yet it lacked to many things to make it feel like Elder Scrolls, not to mention when I notice you can't swim under the water...I am sorry that is just lazy game design.
I can't comment on wildstar - I will most likely play either ESO or Wildstar based on what my friends get.
A MMO is only really as fun based on who you play with...after all that is what an MMO is about....................right?
I don't choose a game based on what my friends play. I choose a game based on what I want to play and make friends for that game if I don't already have friends playing the game.
I didn't have the opportunity to beta test Wildstar, but I did test ESO and I got really into it. I'm excited by the community ESO will have.
I have played on both games extensively and ESO is infinitely better to me.
This is all imho but: exploration is better and feels more rewarding, pvp is on another level entirely, better graphics, far more atmospheric and immersive, better class progression, better combat, infinitely better quests, voice acting, better crafting, better pacing, better IP, the list really just goes on.
I found Wildstar to be mind-numbingly dull when questing. Click on generic NPC, skip boring quest text, look at quest tracker to see which mobs to go and kill or which items to click on etc, rinse and repeat, for hours and hours. Horrendous.
With ESO on the other hand I was really immersed in the quests and their stories. Many characters were interesting with satisfying dialog that was presented to me in an immersive fashion (VO.) The ambient dialog and sounds coming from NPCs + surroundings as I was running around looking for quests etc really helped to fortify the experience; I felt like I was playing an mmoRPG as opposed to just mindlessly grinding through one rubbish, half-arsed quest at a time, solely to race to level cap and start the true game.
ESO just felt far less artificial to me. The world felt more alive and real, and the game’s systems were hidden behind a far more convincing veil, whereas in Wildstar all I could see were the systems as opposed to the world and the characters; an NPC is just another tedious task as opposed to a character, a quest a chore as opposed to a story, a zone being one more bland place to grind through as opposed to a new and mysterious place to explore and advance my character and story in.
Can’t wait for ESO. I may pick up Wildstar post launch some point but for me it is far too generic and far too similar to traditional MMOs like WoW, which I am rather bored of as I see right through them these days...I agree, they both are catering to a different audience. Personally I like ESO more, because it offers a more challenging gameplay and because of the AvAvA. I can understand people liking wildstar too though, but to me it feels too much like ye olde WoW.
RP and RPG refer to two different things. RPG refers to a type of game, while RP refers to a type of activity. I'm not going to be able to take RP seriously in any game until we get a game that actually responds dynamically to player actions rather than relying on static content, because until then we are still going to be playing games where we are all playing the exact same character (from a narrative standpoint) at the same time. If you have to ignore the "reality" of what is going on in a game in order to RP with other people, it's a game that isn't set up for multiplayer RP.
As for your suggestion about going with single player RPGs, in principle you are correct, but the reality is that since the success of WoW, a lot of development dollars that would have gone to single player RPGs now go to MMORPGs instead, with the result being that there are far fewer offline RPGs, especially high budget ones, as the developers who are willing to embrace a large budget in recent years tend to decide to tack MMO onto the game in order to milk the extra revenue streams. That is part of why we are seeing fewer quality offline RPGs developed, but there are also reasons for players to be happy about the switch even if they are primarily RPG fans. MMORPGs tend to have a *lot* more content than single player games do, much of which would not be present in the games if the same base concept had been developed as a single player title.
Look at TOR, for example. It's entirely likely that if they had taken the same base story and done KotOR 3 instead, we would have gotten the Republic side Jedi Knight experience, with slight alteration to allow the Dark Side ending version to be a little darker. No playable Imp side at all, and no other seven classes with their respective companions. KotOR 4 would have been another Jedi Knight story, set further down the timeline, etc. etc.
With ESO specifically, how heavy the instancing is tends to reduce (and in many cases outright eliminate) the "other players" problem. It does such a good job of it that people who are trying to group for content designed to be soloed are complaining because the world keeps shuffling them into different instances in many areas. As far as (non-housing) customization goes, I have to give the edge to ESO. The range of different looks for any given piece of armor depending on racial style and quality level is very impressive if you experiment much with the crafting. And every class has multiple viable builds, across multiple armor types. Wildstar appears to be a much more rigid game when it comes to, well, pretty much everything. Far less player freedom.
Speaking as a huge Daggerfall/Morrowind fan, ESO is the first Elder Scrolls game I have been happy with in many years.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
+1
I actually got it to work and did the quest, I like him
This.
I agree RP and RPG are two different things and that is why I addressed them separately.
I also think your point about no recent big budget RPGs has merit. That said a single player RPG is not going to keep people subbed for very long. You play the content and move on, probably looking at 1-3 months for this kind of player. PvP is the one area where the game really has a shot of keeping players, but with the word being so fragmented and PvP being so limited PvP will have to stand on the quality of avava alone.
I haven't played ESO yet, but I am sure I will grab it when it releases if only to play the RPG side of things(if reviews are good). So I can't really compare it to previous TES games. All of the previous TES games had different strengths and weaknesses, while I loved Daggerfall when it was out it certainly wasn't a perfect game. Skyrim while a far more polished experience sacrifices a lot of the freedom. It should be interesting to see where ESO falls.
ESO is an MMORPG for people who want an RPG, Wildstar is an MMORPG for people who want an MMO. 2 very different markets. Even if talking about PvP the 2 games have very different takes on PvP and will likely appeal to different people.
As far as the RP side of things go, in Wildstar you can customize damn near anything and everything. My understanding is that ESO doesn't have any player created spaces and customization is limited to crafting. RPers like other players are not all the same, I think lore may be more important to some, I think having player created spaces is a huge factor to RP however and instead of giving players a static world to RP it allows them to build spaces, and stories all their own to RP in.
I can agree fully with your characterization here, in terms of the PvE. In terms of the PvP, ESO is just as much for people who want an MMO as Wildstar is, it is just (as you say) providing very different approaches to PvP. With the ESO type (narratively appropriate warfare) being the kind which fits better with a game that cares about the RPG side of things, while Wildstar gives more PvP as e-sport.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.